Girl sectioned after psychiatrist ruled out abortion

neonsofa

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

They don't advocate it because it's ridiculous. I think you are confused by the "right to life" argument. Miscarriage would be akin to cot death, nobody is to blame, it is an unbelievably sad and blameless situation, and the pro life side understand this and that is why they are not trying to argue that point, because it makes no sense whatsoever. Baffling.

ohnonotgmail

greencap wrote: »

Sorry ... what?

Pedantry?

I asked you about one of the main issues at hand.

Where exactly do we put suicidal people.

You know 'pedantry' isn't just some word you can throw out to invalidate anything that you disagree with.

Visible curve in the horizon - ehhh.....pedantry, earths flat innit.

This man was seen in the next town at the time of crime - yeah, well... pedantry, guity isnt he.

You've invalidated the confidentiality clause - ok yeah maybe I did but hey, pedantry.

Or perhaps you try to remove the cause of the suicidal thoughts as allowed under law.

eviltwin

mahamageehad wrote: »

In Ireland? Links?

Not Ireland. Two in America and one in Brazil I think.

greencap

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Or perhaps you try to remove the cause of the suicidal thoughts as allowed under law.

What was the cause of her suicidal thoughts doctor?

Pelvis

greencap wrote: »

Sorry ... what?

Pedantry?

I asked you about one of the main issues at hand.

Where exactly do we put suicidal people.

You know 'pedantry' isn't just some word you can throw out to invalidate anything that you disagree with.

Visible curve in the horizon - ehhh.....pedantry, earths flat innit.

This man was seen in the next town at the time of crime - yeah, well... pedantry, guity isnt he.

You've invalidated the confidentiality clause - ok yeah maybe I did but hey, pedantry.

You expressed the view that when a person is mentally unwell that "surgery" should not be performed. I've shown this to be a false. You didn't ask me about "one of the main issues at hand", you completely ignored the point of my response to you and instead focused on an irrelevant aspect of it that didn't address the main issue at hand, that is, you being wrong.

ohnonotgmail

greencap wrote: »

What was the cause of her suicidal thoughts doctor?

an unwanted pregnancy. is that not clear?

Mrs OBumble

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

an unwanted pregnancy. is that not clear?

Its not at all clear from the article that yhe pregnancy was the sole cause.

One eyed Jack

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

the article doesn't say, but anyone know how far along she was? surly that plays a role in the protection of life during permanency act?

big difference between 1 month and 7 months pregnant.

It doesn't, because the POLDPA makes no distinction in the defining the term "the unborn" (with regards to human life) between the time of implantation and birth.

In terms of whether or not a woman could be granted a termination of her pregnancy, even then having been granted a termination of her pregnancy doesn't mean an abortion.

The fact that we're talking about a minor here complicates matters even further, but that won't stop some people from using what little they know is alleged to have happened in this case, to promote their own agenda.

retro:electro

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

You are accusing me of being emotional but isn't that exactly what you're trying to do? You're using a nonsensical analogy to inflame emotion and incite debate. Maybe you should have started with a point that actually made sense instead of saying something stupid that will upset and offend a lot of women who read your post.

ohnonotgmail

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Its not at all clear from the article that yhe pregnancy was the sole cause.

it isnt clear that it was the sole cause but it was A cause

However, it seems the Act was not invoked, despite her having been deemed suicidal as a result of the pregnancy by the first psychiatrist.

Dirty Dingus McGee

cnocbui wrote: »

What a typically 'Irish' story.

Just adds to the fuel powering my intention to leave this country ASAP and to take my daughter to a more sane country.

Well done.You win the prize for most melodramatic comment.

Ultimate Seduction

eviltwin wrote:

Not Ireland. Two in America and one in Brazil I think.

Pulled straight of the clouds in other words?

cnocbui

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Well done.You win the prize for most melodramatic comment.

Thank you, I'll treasure it.

NinjaKirby

xzanti wrote: »

It really is like something straight out of the 1940's.

No WOMAN should have to carry a child when she doesn't want to, never mind a child herself.

Disgusting.

Oh dear, looks like you are also stuck in the past.

4 Ways to Be Gender Inclusive When Discussing Abortion - http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/08/gender-inclusive-discussing-abortion/

"Using 'women' as a catch-all term for 'people with active uteruses' is incredibly problematic"

You are just so Incredibly Problematic.

BetsyEllen

Jamiekelly what the hell are you on about?
Comparing a miscarriage to manslaughter has to be one of the most insensitive, bullsh!t comments I've read on boards.
After reading your post I honestly thought your next one would be trying to backtrack, apologising that you hadn't meant how it had come across. The fact that you then came back defending it has shocked me.

I have no kids, have never been pregnant, have no closeness with anyone who has ever sadly had a miscarriage.
But as a woman I am still offended by your ridiculous statement. You should be ashamed of yourself.

One eyed Jack

NinjaKirby wrote: »

Oh dear, looks like you are also stuck in the past.

4 Ways to Be Gender Inclusive When Discussing Abortion - http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/08/gender-inclusive-discussing-abortion/

"Using 'women' as a catch-all term for 'people with active uteruses' is incredibly problematic"

Ahh stop with that ****e!

neonsofa

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Jamiekelly what the hell are you on about?
Comparing a miscarriage to manslaughter has to be one of the most insensitive, bullsh!t comments I've read on boards.
After reading your post I honestly thought your next one would be trying to backtrack, apologising that you hadn't meant how it had come across. The fact that you then came back defending it has shocked me.

I have no kids, have never been pregnant, have no closeness with anyone who has ever sadly had a miscarriage.
But as a woman I am still offended by your ridiculous statement. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I think he doesn't actually believe in the argument he has put forward, I think he was asking why this was not an argument put forward by the pro life side, as in logic would dictate that this should also be their stance, and if it's not- why not. I think (at least I hope) he was using this to make them examine the logic, or lack thereof, of their own argument. But the reason they do not put forward the argument he mentioned is that it's absolutely insane.

wonderfullife

jaja321 wrote: »

What kind of barbaric country is this? I don’t know what happened to her once she was no longer detained, but I would assume she probably went to England to have an abortion (she clearly had the support of her mother).

For a start, I wish people would stop pretending they are Mental Health Professionals who can make a flawless diagnosis of someones mental health on the internet.

The law states that 3 medical practitioners must conclude the only way to avert suicide is by granting an abortion. They clearly didn't in this case.

Trying to make this a "Backwards Ireland" thing is also completely disingenuous as there's absolutely zero guarantee she would have been allowed to have a legal abortion in England.

In the UK, all abortions must be signed off on by 2 doctors and a key legal basis is the following:

"The doctors must both agree ‘in good faith’ that an abortion would cause less damage to the woman’s physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy."

Instead of trying to conduct a mental health diagnosis over the internet on a girl you've never met, perhaps consider that the Mental Health professionals concluded that an abortion was likely to cause more damage to her physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy?

It's entirely possible that UK doctors/psychologists would have come to the same conclusion for denying an abortion.

Doctors and Mental Health professionals are in a no-win situation at times but I've absolutely no doubt they have their patients best interests in mind when making tough decisions.

There's thousands of cases like Jade Rees case, the 21 year-old who left a note and committed suicide listening to Ed Sheeran's 'Small Bump' after being traumatised with regret over an abortion she had.

There'd be uproar if Irish psychologists signed this girl off to have an abortion and 3 months afterwards she hangs herself.

Jayop

So unsurprisingly disgusting. This stuff in this country doesn't even surprise anymore. We complain about the DUP but apart from the recent marriage equality referendum forcing the government to do something our main parties are just as bad. This should have been sorted years ago but the spineless self servers in charge are afraid of losing the Bible vote.

keano_afc

Jamiekelly wrote: »

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Even if you didn't want to push for manslaughter charges you should still believe that at the very least its child neglect. But something tells me that issue would be far to complex and harrowing to even try and debate.

I've mentioned this argument to pro life people before and I still haven't gotten a straight answer, most boil it down to "individual cases and not a one size fits all solution." Which is laughable considering that's exactly what they want when it comes to abortion itself....

If nobody on the pro-life side has been able to give an answer to the ridiculous comparison you present, I'm willing to bet you're lying about asking them.

ohnonotgmail

wonderfullife wrote: »

For a start, I wish people would stop pretending they are Mental Health Professionals who can make a flawless diagnosis of someones mental health on the internet.

The law states that 3 medical practitioners must conclude the only way to avert suicide is by granting an abortion. They clearly didn't in this case.

Trying to make this a "Backwards Ireland" thing is also completely disingenuous as there's absolutely zero guarantee she would have been allowed to have a legal abortion in England.

In the UK, all abortions must be signed off on by 2 doctors and a key legal basis is the following:

"The doctors must both agree ‘in good faith’ that an abortion would cause less damage to the woman’s physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy."

Instead of trying to conduct a mental health diagnosis over the internet on a girl you've never met, perhaps consider that the Mental Health professionals concluded that an abortion was likely to cause more damage to her physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy?

It's entirely possible that UK doctors/psychologists would have come to the same conclusion for denying an abortion.

Doctors and Mental Health professionals are in a no-win situation at times but I've absolutely no doubt they have their patients best interests in mind when making tough decisions.

There's thousands of cases like Jade Rees case, the 21 year-old who left a note and committed suicide listening to Ed Sheeran's 'Small Bump' after being traumatised with regret over an abortion she had.

There'd be uproar if Irish psychologists signed this girl off to have an abortion and 3 months afterwards she hangs herself.

while this may be true it doesnt explain why she was sectioned.

greencap

Pelvis wrote: »

You expressed the view that when a person is mentally unwell that "surgery" should not be performed. I've shown this to be a false. You didn't ask me about "one of the main issues at hand", you completely ignored the point of my response to you and instead focused on an irrelevant aspect of it that didn't address the main issue at hand, that is, you being wrong.

How was I wrong. Just an arbitrary 'you're wrong'. Like with your arbitrary 'you're pedantic' shyte.

The act allows for abortions under certain conditions, it doesn't say 'if someone is suicidal they automatically get an abortion'.


PS YOU'RE WRONG. ..... you know, just because.

wonderfullife

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

while this may be true it doesnt explain why she was sectioned.

There's no "may be true" about it - Abortions can be (and are) denied in the UK.

It doesn't happen very often but there are obviously specific cases where medical professionals determine that there is a greater risk to the physical and mental health of the woman in proceeding with abortion than continuing with the pregnancy.

As for why she was sectioned, that was clearly the determination of one psychiatrist who was then over-ruled by another. That, also, happens regularly in a whole variety of cases (male and female), where one mental health professional sees a determination over-ruled.

wonderfullife

wonderfullife wrote: »

There's thousands of cases like Jade Rees case, the 21 year-old who left a note and committed suicide listening to Ed Sheeran's 'Small Bump' after being traumatised with regret over an abortion she had.
.

There's thousands of women committing suicide over abortion regrets???
I think we would have heard that, unless there's some hidden report somewhere you can link to?

greencap

cnocbui wrote: »

You let them have an abortion so they are no-longer suicidal.

Yes. Abortion cures suicidal inclinations. Absolutely.


Distressed girl with unwanted pregnancy wants abortion.

Give her an abortion, distress gone. All better.

Thats how it works.


(this edit totally isn't a note for the really bright people who are great at spotting sarcasm, no really)

keano_afc

bubblypop wrote: »

There's thousands of women committing suicide over abortion regrets???
I think we would have heard that, unless there's some hidden report somewhere you can link to?

Thats not what the poster said.

There are many, many women who suffer for a very long time with the regret of their decision to abort. There's a reason second and sometimes third opinions are sought when a woman presents for a termination.

wonderfullife

wonderfullife wrote: »

There's thousands of cases like Jade Rees case, the 21 year-old who left a note and committed suicide listening to Ed Sheeran's 'Small Bump' after being traumatised with regret over an abortion she had.

Thats exactly what the poster said

greencap

Pelvis wrote: »

The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act disagrees with you.

Prove this claim.

wonderfullife

bubblypop wrote: »

There's thousands of women committing suicide over abortion regrets???
I think we would have heard that, unless there's some hidden report somewhere you can link to?

I didn't say that - it's why commas are important when reading sentences

As for hidden reports, the British Medical Journal is a reputable source and they have cited a 7-year, 600,000 people study in Finland (1987-1994).

http://www.bmj.com/content/313/7070/1431

"Results: There were 73 suicides associated with pregnancy, representing 5.4% of all suicides in women in this age group. The mean annual suicide rate was 11.3 per 100 000. The suicide rate associated with birth was significantly lower (5.9) and the rates associated with miscarriage (18.1) and induced abortion (34.7) were significantly higher than in the population. The risk associated with birth was higher among teenagers and that associated with abortion was increased in all age groups. Women who had committed a suicide tended to come from lower social classes and were more likely to be unmarried than other women who had had a completed pregnancy.

Conclusions: The increased risk of suicide after an induced abortion indicates either common risk factors for both or harmful effects of induced abortion on mental health."


It's just one study.

Anyway, my point, to be clear isn't an anti or pro-abortion point, it's a neutral point which is this:

Doctors and Medical Professionals owe a duty of care to their patient.

If they deem that carrying a pregnancy full-term is more harmful to their physical and mental health, then they have a legal duty to say that.

If they deem an abortion is more harmful to their physical and mental health, they have a legal duty to say that too.

They're in a no-win position at times. If they deny a person an abortion and the pregnant female kills herself, there'll be uproar. If they grant the abortion and the female subsequently kills herself, there'll be uproar.

I'm not ok with people slamming this decision as it implies the medical health professionals went out of their way to not exercise their duty of care. I've had a lot of dealings with mental health professionals and I've a ton of criticism in how our mental health services operate, but I will never question the integrity of any psychologist who has seen me.

There's a reason why in the UK 2 doctors and in Ireland 3 doctors are required to sign off on abortions and it's a very good one.

RobertKK

Miscarriages are involuntary abortions and they happen to all mammal species. They are sad events. They happen naturally for whatever reason, a lot of women suffer miscarriages, one should be compassionate about it as it is a very sad and traumatic experience.

RobertKK

greencap wrote: »

Yes. Abortion cures suicidal inclinations. Absolutely.


Distressed girl with unwanted pregnancy wants abortion.

Give her an abortion, distress gone. All better.

Thats how it works.

What if there is a more severe mental health issue going on, an abortion could wrongly be seen as a cure.

PucaMama

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

No WOMAN should be allowed murder a child if she wants to.

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Even if you didn't want to push for manslaughter charges you should still believe that at the very least its child neglect. But something tells me that issue would be far to complex and harrowing to even try and debate.

I've mentioned this argument to pro life people before and I still haven't gotten a straight answer, most boil it down to "individual cases and not a one size fits all solution." Which is laughable considering that's exactly what they want when it comes to abortion itself....

That's a ridiculous argument. If anything miscarriage is death by natural causes since the child was unable to make it through pregnancy. Unless it's deliberate which is again abortion and again murder.

SwD

greencap wrote: »

Yes. Abortion cures suicidal inclinations. Absolutely.


Distressed girl with unwanted pregnancy wants abortion.

Give her an abortion, distress gone. All better.

Thats how it works.

Treating a symptom/Treating the cause

An overly simplistic perceptive.

_Whimsical_

This is the correct application of the law we presently have though, whether you agree with it or not. There is a big difference legally and medically between being mentally ill and being distressed by a situation you don't want happening. It sounds like this girl was understandably distressed.

I would wonder why anyone would choose to put their teenage daughter through testing this to see just what degree of mental ill health would constitute cause for termination under our laws. What kind of parent does that?

These words give me pause for thought : "this could be managed by treatment and that termination of pregnancy was not the solution for all the child’s problems at this stage”."
Personally I'd be interested to know how far along the girl is and if that was a factor at all in the decision given the use of "at this stage". If it was later in the pregnancy, like in the case of the girl who terminated her pregnancy on these grounds some years back, I would I would think that measures like termination should only be taken in cases of very, very last resort if at all. Right now we have a severely disabled toddler out there without the love or nurture of any parent who would have been fully healthy had he been brought to full term pregnancy. He was always going to live at that point. He'd have had a much better chance of adoption and the basic love that brings had he been born healthy.

In later months it is an enormous, horrific decision to allow that happen to a viable baby. I find it really upsetting to think of that. I know it's not a popular opinion but in later cases I think there's a horrible balance to be done, you have to weigh a woman's extreme distress and the trauma that might cause her with disabling a baby and giving them very little chance of a healthy life and consequently less chance of easy adoption. One is a temporary state, trauma is very difficult but it can be treated too, it doesn't rob you of your family, of anyone to love you, of your ability to get up in the morning for the entire of your life. One is a life long lonely horrific path. If I had to live one of those outcomes I would choose the woman's journey and be forced to give birth ,I say that as a woman.

That case could have been prevented if the woman in question was allowed to travel early in the pregnancy so it was the state's fault, but I still am not comfortable with the fact that the baby has born the full horror of that circumstance.

Murrisk

Jamiekelly wrote: »

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Huh? Miscarriages happen for many reasons, and it's usually nothing to do with a neglectful pregnancy. So, as pro-choice as I am, this angle of yours is a non-runner.

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Well done, you have just proven my point.

The entire argument for pro life is that the right of the foetus to live is the same right to life that everyone has under law. Is it not?

Whether you mean to take someone's life is the defining principle between murder and manslaughter. If abortion is murder because the pregnant woman wants the child to die then miscarriage is manslaughter by the same definition.

You never even tried to debate against the argument, which proves why your "right to life" view falls down under the most basic of scrutiny.

I have no business even debating this? From your reply it looks like you don't want to debate it to begin with....

Sweet jebus. Manslaughter is a more spur of the moment decision and is not premeditated, yes. Mansalughter verdicts are given when it can be shown that it wasn't planned. But in the moment, the person still intentionally ends a life. I just cannot see how you see manslaughter as analogous to miscarriage. Like... what?

I know you think you have hit upon a clever thought experiment but your experiment is poorly designed.

jaja321

wonderfullife wrote: »

For a start, I wish people would stop pretending they are Mental Health Professionals who can make a flawless diagnosis of someones mental health on the internet.

The law states that 3 medical practitioners must conclude the only way to avert suicide is by granting an abortion. They clearly didn't in this case.

Trying to make this a "Backwards Ireland" thing is also completely disingenuous as there's absolutely zero guarantee she would have been allowed to have a legal abortion in England.

In the UK, all abortions must be signed off on by 2 doctors and a key legal basis is the following:

"The doctors must both agree ‘in good faith’ that an abortion would cause less damage to the woman’s physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy."

Instead of trying to conduct a mental health diagnosis over the internet on a girl you've never met, perhaps consider that the Mental Health professionals concluded that an abortion was likely to cause more damage to her physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy?

It's entirely possible that UK doctors/psychologists would have come to the same conclusion for denying an abortion.

Doctors and Mental Health professionals are in a no-win situation at times but I've absolutely no doubt they have their patients best interests in mind when making tough decisions.

There's thousands of cases like Jade Rees case, the 21 year-old who left a note and committed suicide listening to Ed Sheeran's 'Small Bump' after being traumatised with regret over an abortion she had.

There'd be uproar if Irish psychologists signed this girl off to have an abortion and 3 months afterwards she hangs herself.

To be fair, you don't know if she was even assessed by 3 doctors under the PLDPA or whether first doctor she saw used the MHA to bypass abortion access procedures. That needs to be clarified. If PLDPA wasn't used, why wasn't it? I'd also like to know what treatment was proposed for her instead of an abortion and on what grounds was she detained. You're presuming a lot in your post yourself.

No matter what anyone thinks - the fact that according to reports, it seems that the child in question and her mother were under the impression they were going to Dublin for a termination of the pregnancy, but that this is not what happened - is outrageous. Who was dealing with them and how were they communicated with?

p.s I didn't mean to bold any sentence - not sure how that happened!

wonderfullife

jaja321 wrote: »

I'd also like to know what treatment was proposed for her instead of an abortion and on what grounds was she detained.

It's absolutely none of your business what treatment they proposed for her.

greencap

RobertKK wrote: »

What if there is a more severe mental health issue going on, an abortion could wrongly be seen as a cure.

Mrs OBumble

greencap wrote: »

Yes. Abortion cures suicidal inclinations. Absolutely.


Distressed girl with unwanted pregnancy wants abortion.

Give her an abortion, distress gone. All better.

Thats how it works.

Where did you get your medical degree? I'm thinking your teachers may have skipped a few chapters of the books ....

greencap

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Where did you get your medical degree? I'm thinking your teachers may have skipped a few chapters of the books ....

see post 90.

jaja321

wonderfullife wrote: »

It's absolutely none of your business what treatment they proposed for her.

Are you going to address the rest of my post or just this part?

Of course I don't need to know the specifics related to her specific case - but I think its important to understand whether people's dignity are taken into account in such decisions - and as best practice what 'types' of treatment can be proposed to pregnant people in such circumstances.

greencap

jaja321 wrote: »

Are you going to address the rest of my post or just this part?

Of course I don't need to know the specifics related to her specific case - but I think its important to understand whether people's dignity are taken into account in such decisions - and as best practice what 'types' of treatment can be proposed to pregnant people in such circumstances.

Was she due soon.

Maybe its just a good idea to give someone whos unstable a little time to cool off before making big decisions.

Whats the rush.

AnGaelach

steddyeddy wrote: »

Poor girl. This is completely inhumane. Give her equal rights FFS.

It is equal though, men and women can't have abortions either.

AnGaelach

biko wrote: »

Can we please get professionals that stop mixing politics and their opinions in with their treatments.

Why are you bringing your politics to bear on their decision? They could've reached that decision through any number of ways.

AnGaelach

Jamiekelly wrote: »

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Nobody intends on having a miscarriage... Trying to conflate them is clutching at straws, it's the same as saying masturbation is murder. It does your argument no logical favours, you're comparing a wilful act with an unfortunate but natural occurrence.

jaja321

greencap wrote: »

Was she due soon.

Maybe its just a good idea to give someone whos unstable a little time to cool off before making big decisions.

Whats the rush.

What's best practice? That's what is pertinent.

January

AnGaelach wrote: »

It is equal though, men and women can't have abortions either.

Men can't have abortions because men cannot get pregnant.

greencap

jaja321 wrote: »

What's best practice? That's what is pertinent.

Maybe the psychiatrist who worked directly on the case would know.



OR MAYBE ITS ALL A GIANT CONSPIRACY BY THE CHURCH AND PATRIARCHY TO DENY WOMEN THEIR RIGHTS !!!! AAAH HA HA HA HA HA HA.

AnGaelach

January wrote: »

Men can't have abortions because men cannot get pregnant.

But I thought gender was self-determined?