What can I do about neighbours kids?

Ms Doubtfire1

ED E wrote: »

Get a rottweiler.

Thats stupid advise. Only thing that will happen is that the dog will get killed. I LOVE the idea of anti climb paint.:D

twowheelsonly

denis160 wrote: »

Having the same repeatedly for the past couple of years where would you get anti climb paint?

endacl wrote: »

Any hardware .

As stated, hardware shops should have it but grease will do the job as well. Not too thick a layer as it can then be rubbed on your car / house. Just enough to get on their hands and clothes.

Ms Doubtfire1

twowheelsonly wrote: »

As stated, hardware shops should have it but grease will do the job as well. Not too thick a layer as it can then be rubbed on your car / house. Just enough to get on their hands and clothes.

SMELLY stinky grease.:D:D

pwurple

LiberateTutemae wrote: »

The OP is a home owner, NOT a social justice warrior. The only person those neighbours will blame in the event of an anonymous report to Tusla is the nearest scapegoat figures i.e. the OP. More than likely Tusla are already aware of the family if they have engaged in anti social behavior before.

Oh yeah yeah, someone else has probably reported it, right? The OP is not the only person on that street. Could be anyone. Also, if they are known to TUSLA, then even more reason to add to that case. Get those children placed somewhere safe.

Are you equating this to SJW's who look for non-gender toilets and insist on trigger warnings? This is much more akin to the two children left on their own in a car overnight to suffocate, while everyone who saw them ignored it, rather than bother the mother who was drinking inside.

Anti-social behaviour... It's not that either. We are not talking about a bunch of teenagers doing some graffiti, this is a neglected toddler.

A 4 year old should be on the ECCE scheme, attending pre-school, singing songs and finger painting. Not pulling cables and swearing at people.

_Kaiser_

This thread, while full of well-intentioned posts, shows the divide between some estates in this country

The reality (and I say this as someone who spent many years living in an estate dealing with issues like the OP describes) is that the Gardai will do nothing about it as they're under age and it's "nuisance" behaviour, the Council similarly won't get involved, and unfortunately their landlord doesn't seem to care either.
People like the OP's neighbours have no fear or respect for any of those groups, nor the likes of TUSLA. That's evident in the attitude the OP got when they tried to speak to them about it.

The truth is, any attempts to address the situation through formal complaints will merely escalate the problem, and while the OP will find that the Gardai have no interest in the behaviour of these kids, they'll be ALL OVER the OP if they try to "retaliate".

I'm afraid the only real option (sad as it is) is to try and live with it, and maybe do things like installing a fence/gates and hedges to limit the access.... or move.
My late mother had CCTV on every corner of the house, hours of video footage, complaints to the Gardai and Council and the story even featured on Prime Time but NOTHING was ever done by the authorities to resolve the problems (which only stopped when the "kids" involved grew up and moved on to more serious offences). These people have apathy and no fear on their sides so will have no issue with making life hell for the OP if it comes down to it.

sondagefaux

That's a defeatist attitude. The state authorities and the property owners have legal obligations to the people who are being affected and who cannot peacefully enjoy their properties. 
The state authorities can be sued under both European human rights law and Irish law, the property owners who are carelessly letting their tenants make others lives intolerable can be sued under Irish law. 
Using the law to its fullest extent is one way to ensure that those who cause the problems and those that ignore them are punished.

pwurple

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This thread, while full of well-intentioned posts, shows the divide between some estates in this country

The reality (and I say this as someone who spent many years living in an estate dealing with issues like the OP describes) is that the Gardai will do nothing about it as they're under age and it's "nuisance" behaviour, the Council similarly won't get involved, and unfortunately their landlord doesn't seem to care either.
People like the OP's neighbours have no fear or respect for any of those groups, nor the likes of TUSLA. That's evident in the attitude the OP got when they tried to speak to them about it.

The truth is, any attempts to address the situation through formal complaints will merely escalate the problem, and while the OP will find that the Gardai have no interest in the behaviour of these kids, they'll be ALL OVER the OP if they try to "retaliate".

I'm afraid the only real option (sad as it is) is to try and live with it, and maybe do things like installing a fence/gates and hedges to limit the access.... or move.
My late mother had CCTV on every corner of the house, hours of video footage, complaints to the Gardai and Council and the story even featured on Prime Time but NOTHING was ever done by the authorities to resolve the problems (which only stopped when the "kids" involved grew up and moved on to more serious offences). These people have apathy and no fear on their sides so will have no issue with making life hell for the OP if it comes down to it.

Do we actually have to roll out the crappy neighbours credentials here to stop this patronisation? Next I'll be called an ELite.

I lived for ten years next to a family quite like this. Three of our cars were burnt out the drug dealers customers... two of our motorbikes stolen. They used to throw their used needles over our wall. My three year old picking one up was the final straw, and we moved. Have an ould look through my posts, plenty of tales of these guys.

But anyway, junkie daddy and mammy had a little girl, and i called social protection when she was left locked in the car for hours, when she was wandering around the estate in a nappy dragging to her ankles, when she was playing with dog crap. This was before I even had kids myself. I could still recognise abuse when I see it. I kept on good terms with the family, but smade those reports because I was worried about her. I have never done it before, or had need since thank feck.

It took a while, but the mother got some help, and while junkie daddy disappeared off to england, junkie mammy came around, got a place of her own, a job, and the little girl is doing fine now according to the neighbours.

I don't know how people can stand by and watch a child being neglected.

_Kaiser_

pwurple wrote: »

Do we actually have to roll out the crappy neighbours credentials here to stop this patronisation? Next I'll be called an ELite.

I lived for ten years next to a family quite like this. Three of our cars were burnt out the drug dealers customers... two of our motorbikes stolen. They used to throw their used needles over our wall. My three year old picking one up was the final straw, and we moved. Have an ould look through my posts, plenty of tales of these guys.

But anyway, junkie daddy and mammy had a little girl, and i called social protection when she was left locked in the car for hours, when she was wandering around the estate in a nappy dragging to her ankles, when she was playing with dog crap. This was before I even had kids myself. I could still recognise abuse when I see it. I kept on good terms with the family, but smade those reports because I was worried about her. I have never done it before, or had need since thank feck.

It took a while, but the mother got some help, and while junkie daddy disappeared off to england, junkie mammy came around, got a place of her own, a job, and the little girl is doing fine now according to the neighbours.

I don't know how people can stand by and watch a child being neglected.

There's a bit of a difference between a child being left in the state you described by their parents, and the feral kids the OP is referring to.

In the latter case, these kids aren't being ignored by their parents, the parents just don't care what hassle they cause to the neighbours, and because it's "low level" stuff for now (and we had the same things happen at home - broken windows, damage to cars, even poisoned meat thrown over the back walls to try and kill the dogs), the truth is that the Gardai and Council will have no interest in dealing with it - as wrong as it is.

Unless the OP is prepared for a long frustrating slog of keeping records and lodging repeated complaints to these groups, local TDs and so on, any attempts to deal directly with the problem as some have suggested will only make things worse when dealing with "people" like that.

Ultimately it comes down to whether the OP has the time and energy to do that, or just wants to live in their own home in peace, in which case (unfortunately) moving is the only practical solution. Sure, people who aren't living with it may see it as defeatist, but it's up to the OP to decide what's worth more to them - being right/doing the right thing, or to just get some peace and quiet back in their life.

pwurple

Yes, I agree, the Guards, council, TDs will do absolutely nothing about it, because it is not within their remit.

An unaccompanied 4 year old is TUSLA territory. Links are above in my previous pose.

_Kaiser_

pwurple wrote: »

Yes, I agree, the Guards, council, TDs will do absolutely nothing about it, because it is not within their remit.

An unaccompanied 4 year old is TUSLA territory. Links are above in my previous pose.

They're not "unaccompanied" though.. they haven't been "abandoned" on the streets in rags. They're just out making a nuisance of themselves to neighbours, which is bad parenting yes (and I certainly wouldn't allow my child to do it - at ANY age) but not neglect as in the example you cited.

You said yourself that you moved out in the end.. why? I'm going to guess because the time it'd take to get a response from the authorities (if any) wasn't worth the effort/persistence required AND the risk to yourself and your family from these people in the meantime.

You're proving my point for me. As I said, the sad truth in many estates in this country is that people like the OP can do the "right thing", or they can have peace and security. People like we're referring to won't let them have both unfortunately.

davo2001

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

A third party complaint on anti-social behaviour can be taken to the RTB.

Realisitically, do you think this would result in any constructive action being taken?!

Michael D Not Higgins

davo2001 wrote: »

Realisitically, do you think this would result in any constructive action being taken?!

It can force the landlord to do something about it.

The neighbour has shown they're not willing to do anything. The Gardaí will say it's a civil matter. The local authority have no responsibility in a RAS tenancy so this still lies with the landlord. The landlord hasn't done anything so the RTB can force the landlord to control the anti-social behaviour.

The OP doesn't want anything unreasonable, just the kids to stay away from their property. No one is willing to discipline the children though, which is why people are suggesting things like anti-climb paint but if it continues they're only going to get older and bolder.

The complaint with the RTB could result in as little as the landlord at least listening to their complaint and trying to do something about it. If the landlord can't resolve it and the anti-social behaviour continues, the complaint can be re-opened and the landlord may be forced to terminate the tenancy.

pwurple

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

They're not "unaccompanied" though.. they haven't been "abandoned" on the streets in rags. They're just out making a nuisance of themselves to neighbours, which is bad parenting yes (and I certainly wouldn't allow my child to do it - at ANY age) but not neglect as in the example you cited.

Ok, so, maybe you missed the part in the OP, where they mentioned the parents are not around? What parents are you talking about? Someone called this girl feral a few post ago... I can't see how a toddler left to her own devices on a street is anything other than neglect.

You claim it would be "doing the right thing", but somehow are trying to persuade the OP out of it? Your reasoning just doesn't fit my moral values, but I guess that's your perspective.

_Kaiser_

pwurple wrote: »

Ok, so, maybe you missed the part in the OP, where they mentioned the parents are not around? What parents are you talking about? Someone called this girl feral a few post ago... I can't see how a toddler left to her own devices on a street is anything other than neglect.

You claim it would be "doing the right thing", but somehow are trying to persuade the OP out of it? Your reasoning just doesn't fit my moral values, but I guess that's your perspective.

I referred to the parents in reference to the OP trying to speak to them about the behaviour and being told to f-off. The landlord similarly doesn't seem to care.

Ultimately, it's not the responsibility of the OP to sort out this family or the welfare of their kids and attempting to do so out of some sense of morality will likely make the situation worse when dealing with people like we're talking about.

I watched my mother devote so much time to recording and transcribing incidents, making statements to Gardai and the Council, and dealing with the verbal abuse, stone-throwing, cleaning up stuff thrown into the garden and so on - all without any results, that there's no way I'd advocate the OP put themselves or their family through that just to "do the right thing"

You yourself moved out from a similar situation so it seems clear to me that you weren't prepared to do it either in fairness - and who could really blame you? Families like that are effectively untouchable (either because they keep the harassment to a sufficiently low level that the local Gardai/Council can ignore - or indeed because they're informants as one of the groups on my mother's road were), so you can either spend a lot of time and energy in a futile pursuit of justice, or you can make a decision to move on/out and find somewhere better to live (as indeed many on our road did over the years)

missvicky

I've been following this thread as I am going through very similar situations as the op. I'm withered from documenting every incident and reporting same to the gardai and also the council. I have also got the typical answers of shut up and put up or move, but it's not as easy as just moving. Everybody has a right to live peacefully. It's these type of 'people' who have our society destroyed and nobody is taking responsibility for it. I am not going to back down on this and I really hope the op finds the strength to keep fighting

sondagefaux

missvicky wrote: »

I've been following this thread as I am going through very similar situations as the op. I'm withered from documenting every incident and reporting same to the gardai and also the council. I have also got the typical answers of shut up and put up or move, but it's not as easy as just moving. Everybody has a right to live peacefully. It's these type of 'people' who have our society destroyed and nobody is taking responsibility for it. I am not going to back down on this and I really hope the op finds the strength to keep fighting

Everybody has a human right to peaceful enjoyment of their possessions, including real estate (house etc) they own.

If the state authorities (the council, the gardaí etc) don't do their jobs and ignore the behaviour of people who are denying you that right, you can sue them.

You can sue landlords for the nuisance caused by their tenants.

Don't back down, don't move away - use the law to enforce your rights.

Michael D Not Higgins

sondagefaux wrote: »

Everybody has a human right to peaceful enjoyment of their possessions, including real estate (house etc) they own.

If the state authorities (the council, the gardaí etc) don't do their jobs and ignore the behaviour of people who are denying you that right, you can sue them.

You can sue landlords for the nuisance caused by their tenants.

Don't back down, don't move away - use the law to enforce your rights.

You can't sue the council or Gardaí for not acting on low level anti social behaviour. You also can't sue the landlord. You can however raise a complaint through the RTB who can force the landlord to ensure the tenants are upholding their obligations. They also have the power to penalise the landlord and award monetary amounts to the aggrieved.

missvicky

Michael D Not Higgins wrote:

You can't sue the council or Gardaí for not acting on low level anti social behaviour. You also can't sue the landlord. You can however raise a complaint through the RTB who can force the landlord to ensure the tenants are upholding their obligations. They also have the power to penalise the landlord and award monetary amounts to the aggrieved.

What if the tenancy is not registered with the rtb? Is there a way of finding out who the landlord is?

Michael D Not Higgins

missvicky wrote: »

What if the tenancy is not registered with the rtb? Is there a way of finding out who the landlord is?

You can look up who owns the property in the Land Registry. Whether the tenancy is registered or not doesn't matter to making a complaint.

sondagefaux

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You can't sue the council or Gardaí for not acting on low level anti social behaviour.

Yes you can.

Read pages 22 - 24: https://rm.coe.int/168007ff55

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You also can't sue the landlord. You can however raise a complaint through the RTB who can force the landlord to ensure the tenants are upholding their obligations. They also have the power to penalise the landlord and award monetary amounts to the aggrieved.

Generally it's the occupant who is liable for nuisance. However, if a landlord gives explicit or tacit consent to the behaviour causing the nuisance (including by ignoring their statutory obligations under the Residential Tenancies Act), it is open to people affected by the nuisance to sue the landlord. If the court accepts that the landlord has given tacit consent to the nuisance (eg: by failing to take stept to control the anti-social actions of tenants), they may find the landlord liable.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/who-is-responsible-for-open-drain-nuisance-1.2210792

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/antisocial-behaviour-and-noise-issues/

Also, define 'low level anti social behaviour'. The OP sets out criminal trespass, criminal damage to property, and harassment as some of the features of the anti-social behaviour experienced. Are these 'low level'? Just because they're being done by four year olds doesn't make them low level, unless you're referring to the height of the child...

TheDoc

That post about threatening legal action on the basis of human right infringement is one of the most ludicrous things I have read on this sub-forum. It's frivolous use of human right infringement to get a level of issue like this resolved that has the whole effect of human rights violations sanitised and it generally feeling unimportant among the general population.

The best post was in regards the anonymous report to Tusla. Also ensure the Guards are called, that a 4 year old, from your neighbours, is wandering into your house playing with electricity and the guardians seem uninterested. Guarda? have an obligation to visit the guardians and consult/liaise with Tusla.

Did you all not just read the report a few weeks back showing the state of children neglect in the country? Whatever about potential issues with the neighbour, I'd be freaked at a child behaving like that.

Would also say (you'll notice a theme developing in these instances and how I deal with things) if my partner went next door to speak with neighbours about their child misbehaving and my partner was told to **** off, the next knock would be me looking for the husband/boyfriend/father/delinquent **** who can't raise a child properly.

Clashmore

We had issues with tenants who lived next door to us. We own our place. It was the adults that were the problem thou partying all night and drinking and fighting in the street. Ended up with me being abused on my own doorstep as asked them to stop. Every time it happened we sent a registered letter to the landlord and after 6 months complained to the RTB. Short story is they were evicted for anti- social behaviour and left about 3 months ago. I would recommend recording and taking note of everything as this will build a case for RTB. Also talk to other neighbours and see if they are causing them problems too. It may be more difficult for you thou as it is anti-social from children as opposed to adults in our case.

googled eyes

I'm not sure if OP is still commenting but an easy way to stop the phone supply and cable boxes being opened is to put a small wood screw in the top and bottom corner after you've closed it.

Donutz

Hi OP here again. Don't think reporting the child to TUSLA is appropriate. While the child might be acting mischievous, she certainly isn't being neglected. Unsupervised maybe, but at the end of the day she is only a couple of yards from her own front door.

This morning when my wife was putting our own 4 year old into the car to take him to preschool, she was called a f**king b***h by 2 of kids next door while they were getting into their own car for school. These 2 are around 8 and 10 years old. My wife asked them to stop the bad language around our son but their mother came out shouting and told my wife not to tell her f**king kids what to do you f**king c**t. This was 8:30am on the street at the top of her voice.

This is typical of these neighbours though. They are an absolute nuisance but haven't criminally done anything that the gardai can do anything about.

We have been trying to follow up on the landlord and are going to apply to the RTB for the landlord details but according to neighbours, the landlord won't do anything about it either. The tenancy isn't registered on the RTB website either so I don't even think that they will be able to provide me the landlords details.

We also have been trying to follow up with the RAS but they don't seem too helpful either. Have been ringing every day looking to speak to somebody about it but the one time they actually answered the phone, they took some details but never rang back. We have been leaving messages on their answering machine but haven't received return phone call yet.

We have been keeping a diary detailing any incident that has happened for a long time now but don't know who we can approach with this to get something done about it.

Gonna keep pestering the RAS department and the landlord if I can get his details with numerous daily phone calls and hopefully they will get so sick of my voice that they will actually do something about it.

Donutz

googled eyes wrote:

I'm not sure if OP is still commenting but an easy way to stop the phone supply and cable boxes being opened is to put a small wood screw in the top and bottom corner after you've closed it.

Thanks for this. I am gonna duct tape the box and see if that works first. Should have had it done by now but forgot to stop by the hardware store on my way home to pick up the duct tape. Will give the screw a try if the duct tape doesn't work.

handlemaster

you can buy also a low frequency security system it emitts a low sound frequency which we as adults cant hear but the kids can. shops use it to stop congregating kids outside the shop

_Brian

Have to agree with Kaiser on this.

These people are untouchable, they have nothing so fear no one. They know the system and know that this nuisance behaviour seems trivial to tie authorities and nothing will happen.

I can see the position of "I'm entitled to live here peacefully" and for a house with two adults you could give this fight a go, but do you have children or plan to have children - because they won't be able to go outside or have toys outside, they will become easy prey for such unscrupulous families.

I'm with the go for the path of least resistance and hope they move on. I'd put a screw into the dooor of the cabinet, see about getting a fence up or a wall.

Or move to a better area.

Michael D Not Higgins

sondagefaux wrote: »

Yes you can.

Read pages 22 - 24: https://rm.coe.int/168007ff55

This is nonsense and plainly ridiculous. Just because the Gardaí can't stop the neighbours from anti-social behaviour doesn't mean your human rights are infringed. There are a number of vectors for complaints in the system and you can't ignore them to lodge a case for human rights infringement.

Generally it's the occupant who is liable for nuisance. However, if a landlord gives explicit or tacit consent to the behaviour causing the nuisance (including by ignoring their statutory obligations under the Residential Tenancies Act), it is open to people affected by the nuisance to sue the landlord. If the court accepts that the landlord has given tacit consent to the nuisance (eg: by failing to take stept to control the anti-social actions of tenants), they may find the landlord liable.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/who-is-responsible-for-open-drain-nuisance-1.2210792

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/antisocial-behaviour-and-noise-issues/

Also, define 'low level anti social behaviour'. The OP sets out criminal trespass, criminal damage to property, and harassment as some of the features of the anti-social behaviour experienced. Are these 'low level'? Just because they're being done by four year olds doesn't make them low level, unless you're referring to the height of the child...

So you're agreeing with me, you can take a landlord to the RTB over anti-social behaviour. Great, why get the European Court on Human Rights involved?

If I was getting abuse like that from a neighbour they would be getting absolute dogs abuse back, I'd absolutely eat the head of her and her cheeky kids (and her husband if is makes an appearance to "defend" his wife). The softly approach just doesn't work with these types.

El Weirdo

sondagefaux wrote: »

... European Court of Human Rights...

FFS