Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Samaris

There will be case studies in the future regarding this presidency and the strange fixation on destroying the legacy of the president that came before. That Trump attacked Obama in such a disgusting way beforehand will probably be noted too. Which did he hate more - Obama's policies or was it revenge for being shamed at that White House press dinner when Obama took the piss out of the birther conspiracy by showing his "birth video" Spoiler - it's the scene from the Lion King where Simba is presented.

Professor Moriarty

Samaris wrote: »

There will be case studies in the future regarding this presidency and the strange fixation on destroying the legacy of the president that came before. That Trump attacked Obama in such a disgusting way beforehand will probably be noted too. Which did he hate more - Obama's policies or was it revenge for being shamed at that White House press dinner when Obama took the piss out of the birther conspiracy by showing his "birth video" Spoiler - it's the scene from the Lion King where Simba is presented.

I think he hates Hillary most of all. I'm beginning to think that I'll miss the drama that The Donald engenders on a daily basis when he's impeached, assassinated, dies or resigns.

Leroy42

His speech was totally insane.

He spent the 1st part of it extolling the virtues of sovereign states, that each state should be independent to make their own rules and run the country as they see fit, basically telling the UN to feck off. And then spends the rest of it saying the US will possibly do something in Venezuela, NK and Iran because he doesn't agree with their way of doing things

We are all used to politicians contradicting themselves, but in a single prepared speech!

And to top it off he threatened a entire nation, 25m people with annihilation. 25m! That is without taking into account the other countries affected, the nuclear fallout etc. Now, I agree with Trump on the need to do something about NK, but extermination of the entire country!

Some have said that he was really talking to his base rather than the UN. But he wasn't at his rally he was at the UN. Is he totally incapable of dealing with those he is actually talking to?

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

. . . Some have said that he was really talking to his base rather than the UN. But he wasn't at his rally he was at the UN. Is he totally incapable of dealing with those he is actually talking to?

He is always, always, actually talking to himself. As in, he himself is the audience he has in mind when he speaks.

Igotadose

Interesting - Trump using campaign funds to pay for Russia-related legal bills. I thought he was wealthy, no?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-pay-russia-probe-legal-bills-campaign-rnc-funds-article-1.3506875

"Federal election laws allow politicians without public financing to tap into election war chests for legal issues surrounding their candidacies, though experts say Trump will be the first president in modern history to use the funds for a criminal probe."

Not sure I agree with the reporter that it's a "criminal" probe. If there are indictments, then yeah. And everyone including me believes there will be indictments. But, it's just a probe, in some alternative universe there could be civil indictments only...

Still, go to his rallies, send him money, pay for his lawyers. Yessir, that's how I want my donations spent.

Professor Moriarty

Igotadose wrote: »

Interesting - Trump using campaign funds to pay for Russia-related legal bills. I thought he was wealthy, no?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-pay-russia-probe-legal-bills-campaign-rnc-funds-article-1.3506875

"Federal election laws allow politicians without public financing to tap into election war chests for legal issues surrounding their candidacies, though experts say Trump will be the first president in modern history to use the funds for a criminal probe."

Not sure I agree with the reporter that it's a "criminal" probe. If there are indictments, then yeah. And everyone including me believes there will be indictments. But, it's just a probe, in some alternative universe there could be civil indictments only...

Still, go to his rallies, send him money, pay for his lawyers. Yessir, that's how I want my donations spent.

The 38% who still approve of The Donald don't care and will never care. Nor are they the people with real financial leverage on The Donald. It's his billionaire cronies and the GOP cowards that matter. If/when they abandon him then all is lost.

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

His speech was totally insane.

He spent the 1st part of it extolling the virtues of sovereign states, that each state should be independent to make their own rules and run the country as they see fit, basically telling the UN to feck off. And then spends the rest of it saying the US will possibly do something in Venezuela, NK and Iran because he doesn't agree with their way of doing things

We are all used to politicians contradicting themselves, but in a single prepared speech!

And to top it off he threatened a entire nation, 25m people with annihilation. 25m! That is without taking into account the other countries affected, the nuclear fallout etc. Now, I agree with Trump on the need to do something about NK, but extermination of the entire country!

Some have said that he was really talking to his base rather than the UN. But he wasn't at his rally he was at the UN. Is he totally incapable of dealing with those he is actually talking to?

It was a speech straight out of the books of a political despot, similar to the ones that he has praised several times over in the past.

The fact this comes out of the mouth of a sitting US president in front of the UN goes to show what sort of political stock the US has these days.

Absolute shadow of its former self and brings shame on the nation.

Larbre34

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The 38% who still approve of The Donald don't care and will never care. Nor are they the people with real financial leverage on The Donald. It's his billionaire cronies and the GOP cowards that matter. If/when they abandon him then all is lost.

The various soundings seem to be those influential folk are putting together the exit strategy as we speak, mainly one that will spare them as much shrapnel as possible, and that it will be dovetailed with the climax of the Mueller investigation for maximum effect. General Kelly looks more like a trojan horse every day. He very much gives the impression of wanting to be part of the solution rather than the problem.

As the saying goes, the first punch needs to be a good one.

Professor Moriarty

Larbre34 wrote: »

The various soundings seem to be those influential folk are putting together the exit strategy as we speak, mainly one that will spare them as much shrapnel as possible, and that it will be dovetailed with the climax of the Mueller investigation for maximum effect. General Kelly looks more like a trojan horse every day. He very much gives the impression of wanting to be part of the solution rather than the problem.

As the saying goes, the first punch needs to be a good one.

Agreed and that's a very interesting point about Kelly. Makes a lot of sense. Kind of a fifth columnist for the establishment.

aloyisious

Samaris wrote: »

Round II, fight.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/the-graham-cassidy-bill-is-a-potential-disaster

Second bite at the health care apple. Learned their lessons from the first Republican bill and are trying to shove it through before the CBO can score it. That's definitely the point to have taken from the last debacle. Dammit Graham, you were faking being one of the sane ones.

Other than that, looks much the same. Kill the medicaid expansion and narrow medicaid as much as possible to have lots of lovely money to make tax cuts for the wealthy that will, cynically claimed, "pay for itself". No, stripping medicaid from 14m+ is not the tax cuts "paying for themselves". it's cynically exploiting the poor to pay the rich. And then lovely trickle-down economics means that everyone's in a job and happy. The free market and American Way solves all. Except everything it doesn't.

Complete bullsh*t. It really is. And some of these guys will be remembered and reviled for the crap they pulled in these couple of years.

Maybe the AMA and ARP might mount a blitz campaign on both senators home states voters letting them know of the senators intent to cutback on their future health, with the catchphrase "kill the bill before it kills you".

Zubeneschamali

Igotadose wrote: »

Not sure I agree with the reporter that it's a "criminal" probe. If there are indictments, then yeah. And everyone including me believes there will be indictments. But, it's just a probe, in some alternative universe there could be civil indictments only...

There is no such thing as a civil indictment - this is a criminal investigation.

wes

Leroy42 wrote: »

And to top it off he threatened a entire nation, 25m people with annihilation. 25m! That is without taking into account the other countries affected, the nuclear fallout etc. Now, I agree with Trump on the need to do something about NK, but extermination of the entire country!

If North Korea has the capability, they will most certainly nuke the US and/or any allies in the range of there weapons (they can definitely nuke Japan), if the US engages in such an attack. The death toll, won't be confined to North Korea that much is for certain.

wes

listermint wrote: »

It was a speech straight out of the books of a political despot, similar to the ones that he has praised several times over in the past.

Reminds me of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Hugo Chavez, and neither of those guys had enough nukes to kill everyone on the planet twice over.

The man is unhinged and dangerous. The US's reputation will never recover imo, assuming there President doesn't get us all killed.

danmanw8

Christy42 wrote: »

So we have a confession that his son attempted to collude with the Russians and it is still being called a Conspiracy theory.

Is there legitimately any level of proof people would accept?

As for the excuse that nothing was gained from the meeting it is entirely besides the point. If I attempt to kill someone I still go to jail. Trump Jr's incompetence is not an excuse (Christ it is scraping the bottom of the barrel to go there in the first place though).

"nothing was gained from the meeting"... sure

Yeah why isn't he being arrested?

Zubeneschamali

wes wrote: »

The US's reputation will never recover imo

Of course it will. Consider how Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize simply for not being George W. Bush.

Whoever succeeds Trump will likewise be hailed as a genius, a champion of law and due process, a hero of civil rights and an international peacemaker, simply in contrast to Trumps idiocy.

wes

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Of course it will. Consider how Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize simply for not being George W. Bush.

Whoever succeeds Trump will likewise be hailed as a genius, a champion of law and due process, a hero of civil rights and an international peacemaker, simply in contrast to Trumps idiocy.

You know what, your right. It will probably recover as long as the next person isn't a complete disaster.

Billy86

danmanw8 wrote: »

"nothing was gained from the meeting"... sure

Yeah why isn't he being arrested?

Because there are far bigger fish than Donny Jr to fry. He's openly admitted seeking to collude with Russia and in case there was any shred of doubt (or even hopes to shout 'fake nooz' in the face of undeniable evidence) he went ahead and posted the proof himself on Twitter, then said all they were talking about was sanctions (also highly illegal).

Basically, they've tried to revert to the Sideshow Bob defense: “Attempted murder. Now honestly what is that? Can you win a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?”

Billy86

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Of course it will. Consider how Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize simply for not being George W. Bush.

Whoever succeeds Trump will likewise be hailed as a genius, a champion of law and due process, a hero of civil rights and an international peacemaker, simply in contrast to Trumps idiocy.

I wouldn't be too sure - there is a good chance the next president, regardless of who they are, will be a lame duck upon entry. No president has come close to doing as much damage to the US government's infrastructure across the board has, as Trump has done in such a short period of time (why, it would almost seem as if it were intentionally done on the orders of someone actively trying to hurt the US!!) and the divisions in the country are not going to end overnight. When Trump goes, be it via impeachment, via Congress deciding he's not mentally fit for office, or via losing in 2020, there will be considerably more violence from his supporters than we have seen to this point. Expect the terrorism to increase when that happens.

Even just looking at North Korea, he has surely undone decades of work there by underground movements etc - the 'us vs the world' narrative the Kims have been trying to instill forever there has never had footage of an actual US president talking about how the US will show "fire and fury" and that "North Korea will be totally destroyed". There is now no 'liberating' the North Korean people in any true sense and the best that could be hoped for out of that scenario would be something similar to what we've seen in the middle east post Iraq War.

Loving the 'Rocketman' nickname he's got though, given he was 'the candidate of peace' and all that, to end interventionism and take the US out of it's cycle of wars.

Samaris

Depends if the next president is Pence.

I think any president tainted by the 2016 election will struggle, on either side. Pence, Ryan, Clinton...maybe not Sanders, but he's got his own issues, Cruz, Rubio etcetera. They're all marked to some extent by this ****show. The also ran candidates might recover sooner, particularly the ones that dropped out relatively early.

For Forks Sake

Leroy42 wrote: »

His speech was totally insane.

He spent the 1st part of it extolling the virtues of sovereign states, that each state should be independent to make their own rules and run the country as they see fit, basically telling the UN to feck off. And then spends the rest of it saying the US will possibly do something in Venezuela, NK and Iran because he doesn't agree with their way of doing things

We are all used to politicians contradicting themselves, but in a single prepared speech!

And to top it off he threatened a entire nation, 25m people with annihilation. 25m! That is without taking into account the other countries affected, the nuclear fallout etc. Now, I agree with Trump on the need to do something about NK, but extermination of the entire country!

Some have said that he was really talking to his base rather than the UN. But he wasn't at his rally he was at the UN. Is he totally incapable of dealing with those he is actually talking to?

Apparently that speech was Millars work. Unsurprising given its tone. You could nearly imagine Bannon manipulating his puppets through it.

demfad

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Of course it will. Consider how Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize simply for not being George W. Bush.

Whoever succeeds Trump will likewise be hailed as a genius, a champion of law and due process, a hero of civil rights and an international peacemaker, simply in contrast to Trumps idiocy.

It goes deeper than Trump. Deep systemic political and corporate corruption and weakness have been exposed along with authoritarian tendencies among the electorate. Its reputation as the greatest democracy etc. will not recover.

Itssoeasy

Billy86 wrote: »

Because there are far bigger fish than Donny Jr to fry. He's openly admitted seeking to collude with Russia and in case there was any shred of doubt (or even hopes to shout 'fake nooz' in the face of undeniable evidence) he went ahead and posted the proof himself on Twitter, then said all they were talking about was sanctions (also highly illegal).

Basically, they've tried to revert to the Sideshow Bob defense: “Attempted murder. Now honestly what is that? Can you win a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?”

Yeah except sideshow bob put it far better.

Leroy42

Another issue with the speech, is that he has clearly (he had said it before but this brings it up a level) signalled that the US is about to renege on the Iran deal. Europe, China and Russia were all involved and even the US says that Iran is sticking to the terms.

No whether the terms are good or not to go back on the deal, what does that signal to Iran? It means they simply wasted the last few years and they best get back to getting the Nuke as soon as possible.

It also signals to NK that the only way to deal with the US is through Nukes. There is no point talking to the US as whatever deal you may agree with Trump in charge the deal could be called off at any point, and they are left with no nukes.

Harika

Leroy42 wrote: »

Another issue with the speech, is that he has clearly (he had said it before but this brings it up a level) signalled that the US is about to renege on the Iran deal. Europe, China and Russia were all involved and even the US says that Iran is sticking to the terms.

No whether the terms are good or not to go back on the deal, what does that signal to Iran? It means they simply wasted the last few years and they best get back to getting the Nuke as soon as possible.

It also signals to NK that the only way to deal with the US is through Nukes. There is no point talking to the US as whatever deal you may agree with Trump in charge the deal could be called off at any point, and they are left with no nukes.

Iran would be super happy when Trump cancels the Iran deal. First EU, Russia and China would not support that, so that is dead in the water. Second Iran is the good boy in this situation. Third, without putting sanctions against EU, Russia and China there is no chance that anything will happen, so nothing will happen. If Trump is the art of the deal, he would negotiate business deals with Iran asap to catch up with all the EU, CN and Russian companies already doing business with them while US companies are sidelined.

Leroy42

Or Trump is simply using it to commence the countdown to war with Iran.

As was pointed out in an newspaper article (can't recall which) the speech has many mirrors to W Bush call to arms against Iran, when in fact the real target should have been Afghanistan. Trump seems intent on starting a war with Iran when in reality they have pretty much neutered Iran for the time being and should be putting all their efforts into deescalating the NK issue.

Harika

It will be really hard to convince even the republican party to go to war with Iran. No chance with the Dems and Nato will stay out. So only Israel might support a war, although they might be in favour of clinical strikes, but again against what? If Iran had the facilities up and running, send the agreed inspectors and have the sanctions back in place.

Noel82

O'Reilly mark 2 :pac:

BuilderPlumber

Leroy42 wrote: »

Or Trump is simply using it to commence the countdown to war with Iran.

As was pointed out in an newspaper article (can't recall which) the speech has many mirrors to W Bush call to arms against Iran, when in fact the real target should have been Afghanistan. Trump seems intent on starting a war with Iran when in reality they have pretty much neutered Iran for the time being and should be putting all their efforts into deescalating the NK issue.

All this utter madness needs to stop. America's negative and warmongering foreign policy needs to be halted and reform and moderation needs to replace it. America is in no position to judge other nations at all. America has no right to go in and bomb innocent people because of some ridiculous dispute with countries that don't even pose a threat to America.

Any threat that could come about would be caused by poor American policy. Take Saddam's Iraq as an example: when Saddam was removed, what did the world get coming out of Iraq? Terrorism, beheadings, ISIS. Would an invasion of Iran or North Korea be any different? It would create new problems. ISIS would take over parts of Iran and North Korea could see its own fanatic chaos and terrorism develop. Iran is moving in positive directions at present and I'm sure Kim Jong Un also is open to talks if he gets some guarantee.

Trump is a weak and very poor president who is compromised by evil forces who control him. He is heading a government that did not win the popular vote in America even and is presiding over a rigged election result of the very kind he'd accuse other countries of staging!!

The current American government needs to be folded as soon as possible and replaced with a democratically elected one by the majority of the people. A rigged president who also happens to be a poor and weak one compromised by evil and mean spirited men around him is the LAST thing the modern world needs.

BuilderPlumber

Harika wrote: »

Iran would be super happy when Trump cancels the Iran deal. First EU, Russia and China would not support that, so that is dead in the water. Second Iran is the good boy in this situation. Third, without putting sanctions against EU, Russia and China there is no chance that anything will happen, so nothing will happen. If Trump is the art of the deal, he would negotiate business deals with Iran asap to catch up with all the EU, CN and Russian companies already doing business with them while US companies are sidelined.

All true. Let the rest of the world join forces and squeeze the US into changing its disasterous and negative bloodthirsty fanaticism. America is governed at present by a poor, weak, incompetent and undemocratically elected excuse of a government that has not offered one positive thing yet. It is an insult to the people of America that Clinton won the popular vote and a crowd styling themselves Electoral College can be bought off by a rich businessman called Donald Trump who is fronting for evil men who are too cowardly to run themselves but who control policy that is evil and bad for all the world inclusive of America. Iran, EU, China and Russia on the same side are enough to squeeze this current illegal and rigged American regime hopefully inspire Americans to rise up and demand that the popular vote be recognised. Ironically, this is what current American regime would be demanding if a rigged election happened anywhere else!!

Peregrinus

demfad wrote: »

It goes deeper than Trump. Deep systemic political and corporate corruption and weakness have been exposed along with authoritarian tendencies among the electorate. Its reputation as the greatest democracy etc. will not recover.

On the contrary. Circumstances like the present test the US's reputation as a great democracy; it's only now that we get to see how great it is (or isn't).

In many other countries a man in Trump's position and with Trump's character, values, attitudes, etc would be well on the way to entrenching himself as an authoritarian dictator. What we're going to find out over the next couple of years is how well the famous "checks and balances" that characterise, and almost define, US democracy really work, and how deep-rooted the people's democratic instincts really are. But early results are promising; Trump has achieved virtually nothing.

If this keeps up, if Trump can be contained and neutralised so that the country emerges from the Trumpish era (a) still a functioning democracy and (b) relatively unscathed then, yeah, the robustness of US democracy will have been convincingly demonstrated.

Samaris

Agreed on all that, Peregrinus. I guess the only question left is, by the time Trump and his lot are through, will any of us give a damn about American democracy or will we be busy putting what's left of the world back together.

It is promising that he's gotten so little done domestically. Little worried what stunts he might pull in foreign affairs, all things so far considered. Especially if he feels he has to do something yuge to make his base pay appropriate adoration and respect.

BillyBobBS

In fairness to Trump he's doing a good job thus far as president. If you look past a lot of the spin put out by CNN, Newstalk etc... and all other liberal leaning media outlet's. His speech the other day at the UN was a 10/10 for me and has been very well received in the States.

Samaris

BillyBobBS wrote: »

In fairness to Trump he's doing a good job thus far as president. If you look past a lot of the spin put out by CNN, Newstalk etc... and all other liberal leaning media outlet's. His speech the other day at the UN was a 10/10 for me and has been very well received in the States.

Alternate facts can be quite dizzying. I listened to chunks of what Trump was pleased to call a speech and I'd be bloody mortified if I was American to have a President that, amongst other things, including rank hypocrisy regarding American interference, how they don't do it except when they do it and seemed to make indications of potentially doing it in Venezuela, advocated the genocide of 25m people if Kim doesn't back down (because this is an approach that worked before).

The best thing that can be said about it is that he's a complete blowhard who probably (probably!) won't. Even Kim knows that. But...you shouldn't have to rely on the rest of the world understanding that your leader is an idiot to get out of jail free for his saying ridiculous and internationally illegal stuff. And I don't see it solving NK either since Trump's already shown Kim he won't back his words up (just as well really) and that he has no credibility.

How's he getting on with trying to force another NK standoff with Iran?

Jamiekelly

BillyBobBS wrote: »

In fairness to Trump he's doing a good job thus far as president. If you look past a lot of the spin put out by CNN, Newstalk etc... and all other liberal leaning media outlet's. His speech the other day at the UN was a 10/10 for me and has been very well received in the States.

Please try and add something of value to the conversation. It's getting to the point where I skip past most of your posts because I can predict verbatim what you have typed.

It is a guarantee that you will use the word "liberal" and "media" even when it is not remotely relevant to the topic beimg discussed.

As for the U.N speech, his chief of staff spent most of his time with his head in his hands and looking so depressed he might as well have been acting for a medical advertisement for Xanax.

The role of the chief of staff is to effectively implement the plans and policies of the president and judging by John Kelly's demeanour over the past few months he is clearly getting overwhelmed from winning so much.

Peregrinus

BillyBobBS wrote: »

In fairness to Trump he's doing a good job thus far as president. If you look past a lot of the spin put out by CNN, Newstalk etc... and all other liberal leaning media outlet's. His speech the other day at the UN was a 10/10 for me and has been very well received in the States.

Oh, don't be ridiculous. He's a disaster. Nothing has been acheived. The principal planks of his electoral platform have run into the sands, come to naught or simply been abandoned. Morale in his administration is low, and turnover high. He is the object of widespread derision, is the subject of criminal investigations, and has, by a long measure, the lowest persistent approval ratings of any president ever. How much worse could it be? You can't really dismiss this as "spin put out by CNN, Newstalk etc... and all other liberal leaning media outlet's"; its all demonstrably true.

The only spin, in fact, is your claim that his speech to the UN "has been very well received in the States". This is spin because (a) it's not true; reaction to his speech has been very mixed, and (b) it seeks to distract attention from what actually matters when the President addresses foreign affairs before an international audience, which is how the speech is received outside the US.

Professor Moriarty

I wouldn't find myself agreeing with North Korean leaders very often but I thought the Foreign Minister's description of Trump's performance in the UN as akin to a "barking dog" was very apt.

Samaris

Truth doesn't matter when it comes to defending the president. One of his official spokespeople came up with the "alternate facts" nonsense. At that point, there is really little point listening to it; there are no rules against arrant nonsense.

Which is part of the problem. There is actually and alarmingly little point in trying to debate indoctrination. And his base really does seem indoctrinated. What was the percentage of his base that could see no circumstance in which they would disapprove of the president? That is not a sane approach. When truth and facts are dismissable as "media lies", there is no logical place to begin to argue. It's insane, but that seems to be where we are.

For all America's many faults, it is a downright shame to see them go like this. The very type of the president's interaction with his supporters (and, if it comes to that, his detractors), is low-rent dictatorship principles. Anyone who disagrees with me is lying (and should be investigated/sued/imprisoned), don't listen to anyone but ME, everyone else lies to you. What a way to run a country. But people still fall for it, even in countries that are ostensibly democratic.

Leroy42

BillyBobBS wrote: »

In fairness to Trump he's doing a good job thus far as president. If you look past a lot of the spin put out by CNN, Newstalk etc... and all other liberal leaning media outlet's. His speech the other day at the UN was a 10/10 for me and has been very well received in the States.

Well good, just as bad, is subjective.

So we would need to know on what basis you have judged him. IMO, to be judged good, POTUS or PM etc, need to have at least started to deal with and turnaround the threats that are facing the country and the people.

So what areas do you think were the most pressing and what has Trump done to alleviate the problems? He has done nothing on jobs, the numbers are starting to fall behind the numbers that were posted by Obama. The US economy is still not growing at anything other than the minimum expected. He has achieved nothing in healthcare. Has done nothing to ease the tension with NK. Hasn't delivered the coal jobs back. And that is just domestic, the part he was supposed to concentrate on.

In terms of foreign policy, he has given a number of ultimatums to NK and not followed through on any of them. He has backed out of an international deal (Paris) signed by the previous POTUS based on nothing more than dislike and with nothing to replace it. He is threatening to pull out of another international deal (Iran) without any alternative. He has denigrated almost all US allies. He continues to align US with Saudi and seems very close to them despite claiming that HC was terrible for doing the same.

He has suffered an massive turnover in staff, mainly due to either incompetence or possible illegality. He is on his 3rd communications director, second chief of staff. He has left hundreds of positions unfilled due to not even putting forward a candidate.

He has emboldened the Far right, neo nazi racists. How can increasing tensions between the citizens of a country be seen as a good thing? He has not plan to reduce the national debt, and if the sparse details of his tax plan as correct will in fact be placed billions more on that debt on the promise of future earnings.

Are normal americans better off now than when he started, or at least can see the road to that? What steps has he taken to reduce globalisation and return jobs to America?

Has he fixed the water in Flint? Has he dealt with the opioid crisis? What strategies has he put in place to correct the failing education sector (US continues to perform badly across all international measurements). How has he dealt with the increasingly lopsided relationship between big business and the consumer? What has he done to protect citizens data? What regulations has in brought in to ensure that the financial crisis doesn't happen again, or if it does that it doesn't impact the everyday American like before? What has he done to deal with the level of gun violence? What proposals has he put in place to reduce the infant mortality rate (which stands at 6.5 compared to 3.6 in Ireland).

What has he done to counter the increasing threat of foreign influence in the US elections?

Chips Lovell

BillyBobBS will be serving a short ban. No need to respond to his posts further.

Peregrinus

. . .

Leroy42

1) He got conservative judge Neil Gorsuch on the Supreme Court.
As has been pointed out, this only came about because GOP blocked Obama from his right to nominate, By having the numbers the GOP could have nominated anyone. Do you think Trump actually did something to create the opening, as that is what the implication is.
2) The stock market is at an all-time high.
The stock market has little reflection on the actual day to day, it is more a reflection of the future. Given that US has gone through such a massive recession, and Obama cleared it all up and got things moving again coupled with the increasing confidence of the EU, it is no surprise that the stock market is up. However, high stock markets have historically been very bad at foretelling positives futures.
3) Consumer confidence is at an all-time high.
Already debunked
4) He created more than a million jobs by undoing Obama’s regulations.
He has created less jobs than Obama did for the same periods. Job growth, while welcome, is actually slowing and is more a result of the policies of the Obama era than anything that Trump has done. But you may disagree. What has Trump done to drive job growth?
5) Mortgage applications for new homes is at a 7 year high.
Goes back to consumer confidence. But like 4), what has Trump done to actually take credit for this?
6) Unemployment rate is at a 16 year low.
See above.
7) Signed the promoting women in entrepreneurship act.
Which means what? What benefit has it had? What positive effect has it, or will it have?
8) Gutted 800 Obama era regulations thus freeing up companies to hire again and get the economy moving once again.
Were all 800 regulations done to stop job creation? What sort of jobs will flow from this lack of regulations? We have seen in the UK that job growth has involved a large amount of low paying, low benefits jobs.
9) Ended the war on coal and caused a new mine for coal mining to open that will mine clean coal. He also put the miners back to work.
How many miners has he got back to work? Is it back to the old days? The war on coal is being fought by new technologies such as wind, and also gas. Will we see a loss of jobs in gas and renewables to deal with the new coal jobs. Surely you can't believe that both will continue to grow?
10) Weakened Dodd-Frank regulations.
How is this a benefit to the average American?
11) Promotes buying and hiring American.
How has he done this? He still runs is manufacturing in China, same as his daughter.
12) Investments from major businesses such as Foxconn, Ford ,Toyota, Intel amd others will build here now.
Many of these were well advanced during the Obama era. In many cases (Carrier for example) Trump used taxpayer money to give grants to these companies and still they move.
13) Reduced illegal immigration by over 70%.
Well this is a tough one. If it is illegal then by its nature it is hard to calculate. Is this 70% based on the time period before he took office to today?
14) Bids for the border wall are underway.
8 months after he promised it would be done straight away. But he has no money to pay for it so unless the bids are for free then where is he going to pay for it. And it 13) is correct, does he even need to bother?
15) He’s fighting back against sanctuary cities.
A couple of soundbites and some threats does not mean a fightback. What is he doing to change their opinion that sanctuary is correct? They must think it is a benefit to continue with it.
16) Changed the rules of engagement against ISIS.
Great. Care to explain. But if you are going down this route then surely you must hold Obama as one of the greatest ever since he got Bin Laden.
17) Drafted a plan to defeat ISIS.
Which nobody has seen. So all we know is that he had said he has drafted one.
18) Worked to reduce the cost of the F-35 fighter jets.
Saving how much? But at the same time costing the state millions on his wife's stay in NY, his continued golfing trips to Mar-A-Lago.
19) Imposed a five year lobbying plan.
Sounds good and I agree with this. But what has been the actual effect?
20) Sanctioned Iran over its’ missile program.
Based on nothing. Russia, EU, China and even the US agree that Iran has adhered to the deal. What sanctions has he brought in?
21) Responded to Syria’s use of chemical weapons.
By a futile missile launch. It has since been shown that Assad did launch the attack yet he has not demanded anything from Russia who defended Assad at the time.
22) Reduced tax reform plan.
Please post the link to the plan.
23) He’s renegotiating NAFTA.
How is that going?
24) He withdrew from the Trans Pacific Partnership thus keeping jobs here.
What effect would TPP have had on jobs
25) He pulled us out of the Paris Climate Accords thus saving us millions of dollars every year.
Even if true, he is now going to spend those millions paying for antiquated coal rather than tap in to cheaper, and cleaner, energy. If China continues to increase in renewables output, it could potentially be dealing with almost free energy costs in the near future. How will US companies compete, and thus maintain jobs, when the basic costs will be so different.
26) Created a task force to reduce crime.
Again, sounds good. Reduce crime. Everyone agrees with that. But really. He set up a committee (task force is a fancy name). No actual plans. No focus. Any actual targets?
27) The DOJ is targeting dangerous gangs like MS-13.
Do you really think DOJ has not been targeting gangs in the past. Al Capone was taken down.
28) Signed independence and economic growth law.
Good. What does it do?
29) Signed an executive order to protect police officers and target drug cartels.
This wasn't done before? I'm pretty sure I have seen TV shows showing the police and drug cartels.
30) Signed an executive order for religious freedom.
It in the constitution. No need for an EO. What the EO order actually did was allow Religious groups to put forward a preferred candidate that their congregation should vote for, based mainly on Gods wishes. How is this good in a democracy.
31) His administration is working on sending education back to the states.
So now instead of a federal led education focus, education will not only be based on how rich you are but where you live?
32) He’s fixing the dept. of Veterans affairs so now vets can choose their own doctors and be covered. This also protects whistle blowers and allows VA to terminate bad employees.
Yet he is taking medicare away from millions of others.
33) Authorized construction of the Keystone and Dakota pipelines. The Dakota pipeline is up and running without harming the environment.
And the people that were effected by the taking of lands? And there is no potential for future problems? But I don't know enough about it to comment on the pros/cons but this is really small fry for POTUS to be claiming credit for.
34) Created commissions on election fraud and opioid addiction.
So not even a task force on this one. So nothing actually achieved on either.
35) Food stamp use is the lowest level in seven years.
Why?
36) Reduced the White House payroll saving taxpayers millions of dollars.
Taking that logic, why not get rid of everyone and save the whole thing? AS mentioned above, Trump has spent more on vacations and trips in 8 months than Obama did in nearly 8 years. If cost saving is his thing, why not start with that?
37) He’s donating his salary to various causes.
He is charging top dollar for foreign dignatories to stay in his hotels. HE has double the membership fee of Mar-A-Lago. He has used his position to try to push his daughters products. POTUS salary is relatively small, but giving it to various causes is a nice touch,
38) Signed 52 pieces of legislation.
What? really? 52? pieces of legislation? In the last 8 months have come through the House and Senate and been signed by POTUS? You sure you don't mean EO's?
39) Cut 600 billion from UN peacekeeping mission.
Yeah, what has peace ever done for the US.
40) Gas prices lowest in more than 12 years.
What has Trump done to get this?

You cite a number of 'achievements' such as job growth, stock market value, gas prices, but you haven't given any indication of how Trump has actually had an impact.

Zubeneschamali

demfad wrote: »

Its reputation as the greatest democracy etc. will not recover.

This IS the united States we are talking about? The country that invaded Iraq based on a pack of lies about WMD, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and plunged the region into ongoing chaos?

Trump is only trotting after Dubya in the reputation-destroying stakes so far.

frag420

I guess I will have to frequent the joke thread to get some laughs now...

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

BillyBobBS will be serving a short ban. No need to respond to his posts further.

aloyisious

BillyBobBS wrote: »

In fairness to Trump he's doing a good job thus far as president. If you look past a lot of the spin put out by CNN, Newstalk etc... and all other liberal leaning media outlet's. His speech the other day at the UN was a 10/10 for me and has been very well received in the States.

Would you have reliable untainted freely-reached figures on the ratings of the very well received speech versus other views of the same speech on a pie-chart you can share with us?

Note to self; don't scroll down without checking each post.....

Mr.Micro

I for one, always laughed to myself when the line" USA the greatest democracy". Complete BS, always was. The USA lost its reputation internationally since World War 2. Prior to that it had slavery and racism. Now it has a bad reputation with a maniac at the helm. Trump and his sick office are intent on destroying the world blaming everyone for the sickness of the USA.

Leroy42

Could we be potentially seeing the last throws of the US empire. The US seems totally split, with that split being across nearly every point of contact.

Left/Right divide continues to grow and it could be that it almost becomes ungovernable in its present state. It seems to have gone far beyond simple differences in ideology, there seems to be a guttural hatred of each other.

I felt they were going that way with W Bush, but Obama calmed it down (publicly at least) but Trump seems to be a massive swing back to the edges on both sides.

Already we see states such as California pull in the opposite direction than the president in terms of the Paris Accord. Both Coasts are largely left leaning and I wonder how long they will put up with the type of messing that the Right, and particularly Trump, is engaged in.

If I was a New Yorker hit by Sandy I would feel pretty left out when they were denied funds for relief but everyone was quick to run to Texas.

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

Could we be potentially seeing the last throws of the US empire. The US seems totally split, with that split being across nearly every point of contact.

Left/Right divide continues to grow and it could be that it almost becomes ungovernable in its present state. It seems to have gone far beyond simple differences in ideology, there seems to be a guttural hatred of each other.

I felt they were going that way with W Bush, but Obama calmed it down (publicly at least) but Trump seems to be a massive swing back to the edges on both sides.

Already we see states such as California pull in the opposite direction than the president in terms of the Paris Accord. Both Coasts are largely left leaning and I wonder how long they will put up with the type of messing that the Right, and particularly Trump, is engaged in.

If I was a New Yorker hit by Sandy I would feel pretty left out when they were denied funds for relief but everyone was quick to run to Texas.

I wouldn't give up hope yet.

A 9/11 style commission into Russian interference is needed and seems likely now. This would identify the underlying weaknesses and what was used as weapons. Amongst other things information was weaponised and corruption was weaponsied. Solving these takes away the ability of a foe foreign or domestic to make mountains out of molehills, canyons out of cracks and to control corrupt people.

Leroy42

demfad wrote: »

I wouldn't give up hope yet.

A 9/11 style commission into Russian interference is needed and seems likely now. This would identify the underlying weaknesses and what was used as weapons. Amongst other things information was weaponised and corruption was weaponsied. Solving these takes away the ability of a foe foreign or domestic to make mountains out of molehills, canyons out of cracks and to control corrupt people.

Yes, but at the core of it is a wiling populace. No matter how often you point out facts, many people (and I am using Trump supporters as they are the clearest example but it is clear that the same exists on the left) refuse to listen. They bend 'facts' to suit their own agenda, even though within their 'facts' is an opposite 'fact'.

It is very akin to religious fundamentalists (cringingly called evangelists if they are christian). Climate change is the same. They start off with a conclusion and simply look for evidence to support it.

Given that, it is hard to see how any commission, or impeachment or whatever, would actually change anything. They will simply call it a conspiracy, fake news, the swamp out to get him. As a previous poster pointed out there is actually a certain % of Trump voters that said that nothing would change their mind.

We are currently seeing his approval ratings start to increase (small and from a terrible base) but nearly 40% think he is doing a reasonable job. 40%! That is insane. Whether you actually believe he is the Russian puppet many purport him to be, at no point has he done a good job.

Not in the short term, but I think this signals very much the start of the end. States like California, New York etc, are going to get fed up with the total win or lose scenario that is the POTUS. Despite their clear wish they are effectively now ignored for the next 4 years.

Igotadose

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, but at the core of it is a wiling populace. No matter how often you point out facts, many people (and I am using Trump supporters as they are the clearest example but it is clear that the same exists on the left) refuse to listen. They bend 'facts' to suit their own agenda, even though within their 'facts' is an opposite 'fact'.

This. It's the culture. I saw a quote a few weeks ago, "The President is what America is becoming." If it wasn't Trump - imagine, say, President Ted Cruz or President Jeb Bush, how different would things be? Obamacare'd be gutted, defense spending soaring, and US foreign policy as much of a trainwreck as ever.

It's the culture, not Trump. He's just a product of it. When people ask me, "Why did you move to Ireland," I say "because I could see what America's becoming." Trump's just the manifestation. About the only good thing I think might come out of his administration is maybe there'll be some turnaround in the culture and what's rewarded by society there. I'm pretty doubtful though, it never seems to improve there, Obama did some good things but he was an anomaly.

Water John

I think a Ted Cruz and a Jeb Bush POTUS would be very diff from each other.
Many non GOP would have little difficulty with Jeb as POTUS. Ted, on the other hand would be worse than Donald.