Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

pitifulgod

Harika wrote: »

I missed to add that to defeat that many enemy soldiers you will need far more than the 30000 US personal stationed atm in south Korea. Also will the south Korean government agree to the slaughter of tens of thousands of their citizens?

North Korean military is actually in direction of 4 million so I believe. I'd suspect it's substantially more difficult than Vietnam and even with competent leadership, I couldn't really see a scenario that would be successful.

david75

Harika wrote: »

There are one million soldiers in north Korea, to attack them you need enough bombs to destroy all artillery stations, where most of them are highly fortified. Then you will need to kill 10% of soldiers to break them and millions of civilians in the process. Really hard to sell that to the public and all in fear of a tiny fat man
EDIT and massive losses of US and south Korean lives.

Good point. Don't forget about air assault by the US though. NK can in no way answer that if it happens. Or the nuke option.

The thing is the Chinese have that deal with NK and won't sit on their hands if US invade or if there's a nuke used.

david75

Harika wrote: »

I missed to add that to defeat that many enemy soldiers you will need far more than the 30000 US personal stationed atm in south Korea. Also will the south Korean government agree to the slaughter of tens of thousands of their citizens?

So what the the options? I kinda see only one. SK will be called collateral damage. Remember who we're dealing with. Doubt he can say collateral

Harika

david75 wrote: »

So what the the options? I kinda see only one. SK will be called collateral damage. Remember who we're dealing with. Doubt he can say collateral

I am shocked that the death of millions of people is seen us unavoidable.

Options are.
1. Let kim be Kim and shout sometimes No No No. Overall ignore him. The show kim puts on is simple to show strength to any internal opposition, by sometimes reacting you give him what he wants or needs.

2. Put pressure on China to make Kim clear that he can do whatever he wants as long as he doesn't kill anyone outside of north Korea. USA won't invade anyway but any aggression from him will be met with lethal force while China won't interfere.

Atm China is increasing the pressure on kim to don't go completely mental by reducing the export of oil and petrol to them. And clarifying that an offensive of Kim won't be tolerated and they won't protect him. So any attack of him will be his end, and he knows that.
The US is not in the driver seat here any more and depending on the outcome we might see a big shift in leadership in the Pacific area.
Already Trump has no clue or doesn't understand anything how to play the game of diplomacy and while Obama understood the importance of the area Trump worries about a small fat dictator. While it is far more important to keep china's influence at bay.

Inquitus

Harika wrote: »

While it is far more important to keep china's influence at bay.

Is it really? can they make as big a foreign policy mess as the US has over the last 100 years? do we really need to fear China? I am not sure.

Harika

Inquitus wrote: »

Is it really?

Depends on your point of view. US might disagree with you

Inquitus

Harika wrote: »

Depends on your point of view. US might disagree with you

Unsurprisingly my PoV is a European / Irish one.

Colsin91

I am hoping that the diplomatic negotiations behind the scenes will stave off any war. I think that both leaders are flexing their muscles to appease their respective fan-bases. I think that both countries have too much to lose economically and socially to actually forge ahead with a war.

Christy42

On a lighter note.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/23/politics/nfl-goodell-trump-response/index.html

Trump suggests nfl owners should fire players who take the knee during the anthem. Also suggests it would make the owners popular. I am less sure firing Marshawn Lynch from his home town club would make someone that popular.

Igotadose

Christy42 wrote: »

On a lighter note.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/23/politics/nfl-goodell-trump-response/index.html

Trump suggests nfl owners should fire players who take the knee during the anthem. Also suggests it would make the owners popular. I am less sure firing Marshawn Lynch from his home town club would make someone that popular.

He's now crossed the societal red line, taking on the NFL *and* the NBA. Gone by January

And as I recall, he once owned a USFL team the NJ Generals(?) The USFL failed but brought a few things into play that are now in the NFL, like the 2 point conversion and the horror that is the appeal play.

Hande hoche!

Surprised he didn't tweet about the NFL's falling ratings.

eagle eye

LeBron James called Trump a bum.

I don't think that is going to do anybody any favours.
James will gain fans but lose as many and maybe more. I don't think a sports superstar should go that far, he should leave any comments he wishes to make to his publicist. Calling the POTUS a bum is wrong regardless of what you think of the man holding the position.

BuilderPlumber

Inquitus wrote: »

Is it really? can they make as big a foreign policy mess as the US has over the last 100 years? do we really need to fear China? I am not sure.

The US has been making exaggerated propaganda since at least the end of the second world war. First, it was the exaggerated threat posed by the USSR and communism. This lead to numerous unnecessary wars the most prominent being Korea and Vietnam. Then, it was threats posed by Iraq, Iran, North Korea, non-communist Russia and modern China among others. More wars came about especially those in Iraq and terrorism quadrupled.

So, to answer your question: I don't believe we have anything to fear from China. China has not initiated any war against anyone in its modern history. I don't see China occupying and invading countries at the opposite side of the world from it. America on the other hand is doing all that: invading places like Iraq and Serbia, threatening other countries and having to comment on their internal affairs. The double standards of American policy is blatant.

Trump may or may not be what he seems. One part of me feels he is a secret agent with a role to root out the fascist nature of the Republican party by publicly spouting the views members of that party quietly have. If Trump is an anti-Republican and anti-fascist agent placed to be a Trojan horse, he is doing extremely well so far: Americans are fast turning against the Republicans, the whole world is joining up against American fascism and many evil Republicans are feeling very uneasy. Trump? A stupid buffoon or a genius undercover agent? Whatever way, he may be the biggest ally against American fascist negativity.

Gbear

eagle eye wrote: »

LeBron James called Trump a bum.

I don't think that is going to do anybody any favours.
James will gain fans but lose as many and maybe more. I don't think a sports superstar should go that far, he should leave any comments he wishes to make to his publicist. Calling the POTUS a bum is wrong regardless of what you think of the man holding the position.

That would be true if he wasn't making an absolute mockery of the institution of the President of the United States.

I'd imagine the demographics of Basketball fans have very little overlap with Trump supporters so I doubt he'll lose much out of it.

It'd be nice to see more people weigh in.

I get why sports starts and celebrities in general tend to be so bland and avoid controversy but at a certain point people need to park the neutral PR guff to one side and call a spade a spade.

Rjd2

Gbear wrote: »

That would be true if he wasn't making an absolute mockery of the institution of the President of the United States.

I'd imagine the demographics of Basketball fans have very little overlap with Trump supporters so I doubt he'll lose much out of it.

It'd be nice to see more people weigh in.

I get why sports starts and celebrities in general tend to be so bland and avoid controversy but at a certain point people need to park the neutral PR guff to one side and call a spade a spade.

Hollywood isn't exactly neutral, plenty of criticism from many about Trump and numerous people lined up behind Clinton and well it didn't really work out. You'd struggle to find many who would indicate they are right wing let alone support Trump.

Celebs are entitled to their opinion and should voice it but more celebs calling Trump an idiot isn't really going to do much. Its preaching to the converted and those on the right/Trump fans aren't going to change their view because some movie actor told them their opinions are wrong.

pitifulgod

eagle eye wrote: »

LeBron James called Trump a bum.

I don't think that is going to do anybody any favours.
James will gain fans but lose as many and maybe more. I don't think a sports superstar should go that far, he should leave any comments he wishes to make to his publicist. Calling the POTUS a bum is wrong regardless of what you think of the man holding the position.

He's as entitled to hold and express political views as he wishes to. How Trump is conducting himself is far more concerning. The NFL Commissioner called him out too.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-nfl-goodell-trump-comments-20170923-story.html

Samaris

Tbh though, celebrities and sports people are human too and are just as likely as any of the rest of us to comment on the goings-on of the people in charge. Especially when the president is, because apparently he doesn't have enough on with a squabble with North Korea, upsetting South Korea, insulting China, Iran and Venesuela, talking ****e to the UN and the disastor relief efforts of three hurricanes, also talking rubbish about NFL players.

I am not exactly surprised that some of them are mouthing off back at him which is absolutely within their rights.

Free speech doesn't go away just because you're famous. Admittedly, it means more people will listen and have opinions (good and bad) about it.

And Trump's "subtle" encouraging of club owners to fire sportspeople that kneel during the anthem? That is attempting to suppress (in this case by chilling it/offering veiled threats to players that the managers will be "so popular" etc.) free speech in the classic yes-from-the-government way. Ironic, really, albeit unsurprising. There was that auld pardon there a few weeks ago for breaking the law...

Colsin91

While everybody has a right to voice their opinion, I actually think that Hollywood stars do more damage to the anti-Trump campaign. His supporters use it as further proof that the champagne-elitists look down on them and their small town values (the Crux of the problem is that Trump supporters see Trump as one of them).

Rjd2 wrote: »

Hollywood isn't exactly neutral, plenty of criticism from many about Trump and numerous people lined up behind Clinton and well it didn't really work out. You'd struggle to find many who would indicate they are right wing let alone support Trump.

Celebs are entitled to their opinion and should voice it but more celebs calling Trump an idiot isn't really going to do much. Its preaching to the converted and those on the right/Trump fans aren't going to change their view because some movie actor told them their opinions are wrong.

JohnFalstaff

Colsin91 wrote: »

While everybody has a right to voice their opinion, I actually think that Hollywood stars do more damage to the anti-Trump campaign. His supporters use it as further proof that the champagne-elitists look down on them and their small town values (the Crux of the problem is that Trump supporters see Trump as one of them).

The greatest irony in this is that Trump is obviously a 'coastal elite' himself who had everything handed to him on a platter. Whereas many Hollywood stars have worked their way up to achieve what they have.

George Clooney made this point in a recent interview. You can read the whole interview here: http://www.thedailybeast.com/george-clooney-opens-up-about-why-hillary-clinton-lost-i-never-saw-her-elevate-her-game

This is the relevant quote:

Here’s the thing: I grew up in Kentucky. I sold insurance door-to-door. I sold ladies’ shoes. I worked at an all-night liquor store. I would buy suits that were too big and too long and cut the bottom of the pants off to make ties so I’d have a tie to go on job interviews. I grew up understanding what it was like to not have health insurance for eight years. So this idea that I’m somehow the “Hollywood elite” and this guy who takes a **** in a gold toilet is somehow the man of the people is laughable. Hollywood elite? I don’t have a star on Hollywood Boulevard, Donald Trump has a star on Hollywood Boulevard! **** you!

Samaris

YEah, but at this stage, who bloody cares what they think of it? They're not going to change their minds. Nothing that Trump has done or said so far has changed their minds. They want to believe in him, and that belief, coupled with the malicious lies (and insistance that the public should get their info straight from the White House) spread means that no matter what happens, they will not have to believe if their delusion is more comfortable.

So far, it is.

And the rest of us are human too and get frustrated. Taking the high road is great in theory and in general, a lot of people try to stick to it, but ffs, sometimes it is maddening that Trump can say anything that pops into what he's pleased to call a mind and it will be lapped up and regurgitated by his supporters (too many of whom are quite happy to call anyone that disagrees any name they like).

Gently, gently, don't hurt their precious feelings or you'll never convince them! Well, just as they think about everyone that doesn't disagree, fcuk their feelings sometimes, tbh. A famous person should not have to place unreasonable restrictions on airing their own opinions merely because they are famous. That silly societal law, so reminiscent of the ancient idea that royalty cannot answer back, is indeed a chill on free speech against people who are doing nothing more than giving their own opinions.


I am happy to debate, and while occassionally sarky or overbearing, I will generally do it politely and rationally. But there's only so many times one can be called a cuck and a liar for saying stuff that is blatantly obvious. And while I will treat opinions as things that everyone can hold, I do not subscribe to this new notion that everyone has the right to their own facts as well.

I would buy suits that were too big and too long and cut the bottom of the pants off to make ties so I’d have a tie to go on job interviews.

I take my hat off to him for that brainwave.

Rjd2

Colsin91 wrote: »

While everybody has a right to voice their opinion, I actually think that Hollywood stars do more damage to the anti-Trump campaign. His supporters use it as further proof that the champagne-elitists look down on them and their small town values (the Crux of the problem is that Trump supporters see Trump as one of them).

Pretty much. To be fair many of those who lean right have felt entertainment has patronised them long before Trump came along, the reaction when Bush beat Kerry an obvious example.

I think celebs should speak up no matter what their side or beliefs, but don't be stunned if some reject them. Bill Burr has some cracking stuff on this.

This from Trump this weekend on Colm whatever is "classic " Trump, he is getting people to focus on something much less important than Korea, health care and even the fight with Breitbart. He did it when he moved the debate from Nazis to statues and people fell for the trap.

I expect we might get more people who may protest in the NFL tomorrow, twitter will pat itself on the back about how Trump has been humiliated while totally unaware this is what he is counting on.

Christy42

Rjd2 wrote: »

Pretty much. To be fair many of those who lean right have felt entertainment has patronised them long before Trump came along, the reaction when Bush beat Kerry an obvious example.

I think celebs should speak up no matter what their side or beliefs, but don't be stunned if some reject them. Bill Burr has some cracking stuff on this.

This from Trump this weekend on Colm whatever is "classic " Trump, he is getting people to focus on something much less important than Korea, health care and even the fight with Breitbart. He did it when he moved the debate from Nazis to statues and people fell for the trap.

I expect we might get more people who may protest in the NFL tomorrow, twitter will pat itself on the back about how Trump has been humiliated while totally unaware this is what he is counting on.

It doesn't really matter where the debate is. When it was on uncomfortable issues for Trump then his supporters still didn't care.

People are not going to ditch the nfl or the nba for him though and owners won't fire superstar players and they will protest in front of millions.

There is a serious side to this. Trump has come out and said he won't listen to their side of the debate. He wants them out, he does not want to think about any issues around police violence.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

LeBron James called Trump a bum.

I don't think that is going to do anybody any favours.
James will gain fans but lose as many and maybe more. I don't think a sports superstar should go that far, he should leave any comments he wishes to make to his publicist. Calling the POTUS a bum is wrong regardless of what you think of the man holding the position.

Nonsense, he is utterly unfit for the job and should be called out on all of the crap he pulls. Trump and his supporters are very thin skinned when you look back at all the garbage they spouted about Obama for instance

BoatMad

YEah, but at this stage, who bloody cares what they think of it? They're not going to change their minds. Nothing that Trump has done or said so far has changed their minds. They want to believe in him, and that belief, coupled with the malicious lies (and insistance that the public should get their info straight from the White House) spread means that no matter what happens, they will not have to believe if their delusion is more comfortable.

This happens for a while, ultimately " ye shall be judged by your deeds" wins out and support falls away rapidly. Trump has shown himself spectacturly inept at actually achiving anything concrete.

Remember Trump won by a small margin against an unpopular opponent. To remove Trump only requires movement in the floating voters, it does not require conversion of his core support group

The mid-terms will be revealing, I think. The senate may be lost to the GOP and the HOR majority reduced. Trump is then a dead man waking and is far too pugnacious and imperious to become a compromise president , the result will be utter stalemate

Rjd2

Christy42 wrote: »

It doesn't really matter where the debate is. When it was on uncomfortable issues for Trump then his supporters still didn't care.

People are not going to ditch the nfl or the nba for him though and owners won't fire superstar players and they will protest in front of millions.

There is a serious side to this. Trump has come out and said he won't listen to their side of the debate. He wants them out, he does not want to think about any issues around police violence.

He knows that the majority of Americans don't agree with the protests and has got people focusing on that rather than on stuff like healthcare where he is out of step of the majority. The media have fallen for the "look over there" trick he has pulled many times before. Twas the same with statues in the point I said above.

Rjd2

BoatMad wrote: »

This happens for a while, ultimately " ye shall be judged by your deeds" wins out and support falls away rapidly. Trump has shown himself spectacturly inept at actually achiving anything concrete.

Remember Trump won by a small margin against an unpopular opponent. To remove Trump only requires movement in the floating voters, it does not require conversion of his core support group

The mid-terms will be revealing, I think. The senate may be lost to the GOP and the HOR majority reduced. Trump is then a dead man waking and is far too pugnacious and imperious to become a compromise president , the result will be utter stalemate

On Bill Maher the point was made it mightn't be the worst thing for Trump to lose the mid terms. Obviously his ego would be hurt hugely, but at least he could afterwards blame the dems for not allowing him to get anything done because after all this time they are the majority.:p

Trump would be able to milk that for all its worth knowing him and his base.

Samaris

He could, but he's already blaming the Reps for exactly the same thing (not, ofc, that mere unoriginality would stop him). Maybe this will set up for an independent run, maybe not.

And at least there would be less of the alarming attempts to pass insane bills if one or both houses of Congress go blue again.

volchitsa

Rjd2 wrote: »

On Bill Maher the point was made it mightn't be the worst thing for Trump to lose the mid terms. Obviously his ego would be hurt hugely, but at least he could afterwards blame the dems for not allowing him to get anything done because after all this time they are the majority.:p

Trump would be able to milk that for all its worth knowing him and his base.

Interesting point, that. His core support would certainly leap on the excuse, but I think (hope!) that the more traditional middle of the road Republican voters would be capable of keeping in mind that it was his failure to achieve anything much before that either which led to a loss of support in the mid terms (if that is what happens of course - these days I'm taking nothing for granted!)

PopePalpatine

On top of that, he could claim that the Republicans who lost their seats weren't true believers in his agenda.

Water John

But a Republican who has lost his seat, isn't worth fiddlesticks to him. Handy for a tweet or soundbite only. Gone in 10 seconds.

If POTUS respected the values of his country and flag, then he would have grounds on which to call out others.

pitifulgod

I'm imagining impeachment proceedings would be opened fairly lively against him upon losing midterms if he makes it to then.

david75

Trump said this in 2011.
https://twitter.com/janilani/status/911786767715491840

Harika

pitifulgod wrote: »

I'm imagining impeachment proceedings would be opened fairly lively against him upon losing midterms if he makes it to then.

Based on what?

Akrasia

david75 wrote: »

Trump said this in 2011.
https://twitter.com/janilani/status/911786767715491840

Sorry David, but that was fake news (literally, that tweet was faked)
http://www.snopes.com/trumps-flip-flop-on-flag-burning/

Plenty of real things to condemn Trump for but this one isn't real.

rossie1977

Rjd2 wrote: »

On Bill Maher the point was made it mightn't be the worst thing for Trump to lose the mid terms. Obviously his ego would be hurt hugely, but at least he could afterwards blame the dems for not allowing him to get anything done because after all this time they are the majority.:p

Trump would be able to milk that for all its worth knowing him and his base.

He is already blaming the Democrats

For healthcare http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/342465-trump-blames-dems-few-republicans-for-collapse-of-healthcare-bill

For confirming his cabinet appointments http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/05/trump-nominees-democrats-239137

For infrastructure https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rallying-blue-collar-workers-in-cincinnati-trump-blames-democrats-for-obstructing-his-agenda/2017/06/07/af92c186-4baa-11e7-bc1b-fddbd8359dee_story.html?utm_term=.f01812227d92

He even blamed them setting up his son and the Russian lawyer http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-team-blames-democrats-for-meeting-between-campaign-and-natalia-veselnitskaya-2017-7?r=US&IR=T

Rjd2

rossie1977 wrote: »

He is already blaming the Democrats

For healthcare http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/342465-trump-blames-dems-few-republicans-for-collapse-of-healthcare-bill

For confirming his cabinet appointments http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/05/trump-nominees-democrats-239137

For infrastructure https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rallying-blue-collar-workers-in-cincinnati-trump-blames-democrats-for-obstructing-his-agenda/2017/06/07/af92c186-4baa-11e7-bc1b-fddbd8359dee_story.html?utm_term=.f01812227d92

He even blamed them setting up his son and the Russian lawyer http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-team-blames-democrats-for-meeting-between-campaign-and-natalia-veselnitskaya-2017-7?r=US&IR=T

But he can blame them more when they are the majority

Igotadose

Harika wrote: »

Based on what?

Obstruction of justice. Lots of articles from lawyers saying there's enough to bring charges today against him for his antics wrt Comey.

One of several sources talking about this (some time ago - he hadn't pardoned Arpaio yet, and that's kind of dodgy but much more of a gray area as POTUS pardons are a gray area.) http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/07/the_obstruction_of_justice_case_against_trump_is_already_a_slam_dunk.html

Beechwoodspark

Trump's latest distraction will run out of steam soon enough.

pitifulgod

Harika wrote: »

Based on what?

His fitness for office. Also we have an ongoing investigation that is nowhere near finished yet. Will be far closer by then and it's really appearing to have a legitimate foundation. If he makes an effort to remove Mueller which I imagine he will, just gonna give more fuel. Far more grounds for it than there would have been against Clinton for example.

david75

Oh wonderful.
https://twitter.com/ap/status/911658631665418240

pitifulgod

27 NFL players have kneeled for national anthem in London. It's backfiring on Trump.

https://youtu.be/u2RtA-nGzFc

Nody

pitifulgod wrote: »

27 NFL players have kneeled for national anthem in London. It's backfiring on Trump.

https://youtu.be/u2RtA-nGzFc

Got a feeling that it will become VERY popular to kneel among players as a middle finger salute to Trump... Of course you got the expected reaction from the normal Trump supporters such as:

FIRE THEM NOW!!!!! ALL OF THEM SCUM! LEAVE THE COUNTRY IF YOU DONT LIKE IT!! BITCGH!!! GO TO North Korea AND SEE HOW YOU LIKE LIVING OIN YOUR KNEES PUSSY BITCHES

DISGUSTING AND DISGRACEFUL!!! F THE NFL, F THE NFL PLAYERS, AND F THE SJW AND THEIR TOTALITARIAN DOGMA!!!

That's what happens when you put into to many blacks, they bite the hand that feeds. There will be low stadium attendance and ratings to any teams that try this. Goodell can go drop dead

Disrespecting our country while in London? Traitors to our nation. Drop the **** stains off in Africa. **** THE NFL. Burn your caps and jerseys!

Then again looking at the videos they have uploaded/liked here's a sample of the titles which may explain it:

• Inspirational Sex Dolls for Sexual Deviants
• Study: Staring at Breasts Promotes A Healthy Heart.
• history channel admits anthrax attacks are an inside job
• Ivanka Trump's Amazing Golf Swing Wearing Heels

SkepticQuark

Don't see it mentioned but on the topic of his deranged NFL tweets:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/227

martingriff

I think Trump made this knelling during the National Anthem a bigger issue then it would have had been. It would have been over in weeks now we have people telling children to do it. Now it's not about protesting the original protest but a big FU to Trump.

I am not a fan of protesting this way and would say to back down on this protest type

Samaris

roddy15 wrote: »

Don't see it mentioned but on the topic of his deranged NFL tweets:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/227

Interesting indeed. Trump may have bitten off more than he intended with this round of his usual tripe.

His defence would presumably be that he only thought firing them SHOULD happen, like, in an ideal world, managers would be so popular if they should happen to fire them. It's not like he ever ordered them TO fire them...

Shades of Comey, isn't it.

Rjd2

pitifulgod wrote: »

27 NFL players have kneeled for national anthem in London. It's backfiring on Trump.

https://youtu.be/u2RtA-nGzFc

People are forgetting this is what he would have expected and the fact that he has really doubled down on this is proof of that. He thrives on this sort of division and he knows despite that what twitter says they are many uncomfortable with these protests.

Pleased to see the protests especially when you see trash like this from Mnucnhin

https://twitter.com/keithboykin/status/911960959320764416

Christy42

pitifulgod wrote: »

27 NFL players have kneeled for national anthem in London. It's backfiring on Trump.

https://youtu.be/u2RtA-nGzFc

I would also add that some are kneeling but everyone is locking arms.

As someone else said, Trump thrives on this sort of division but it is what is needed. He thrives on division but the only way to stop it is to be quiet and accept the idiocy from above - who knows where that would lead, if people don't realise the level of opposition to him a few more kneelers could see themselves let go. This stops it dead. This has to be done, whether or not many are uncomfortable with it. Better this show of unity (from one of the owners as well) than just a few isolated cases.

There are no good answers to a president actively trying to divide his own country. I do think protests like this are a necessary step.

Beechwoodspark

Be great to see more of this over the coming days. Isn't freedom of expression great

Ludo

Why de fook do they even play the national anthem before every single game anyway in American sport...bloody annoying and bringing politics into sport for no good reason.

oscarBravo

martingriff wrote: »

I am not a fan of protesting this way...

Out of curiosity, what form of protest do you feel is appropriate?