Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Timberrrrrrrr

Owdetojoy wrote: »

President Trump is not really supportive of the GOP, he is for the ordinary decent citizen and is draining the swamp of Washington. He has already done great things for America in less than a year in office. What you see is what you get, makes a great change from established politics[

Owdetojoy wrote: »

He is verpopular in America, Britain and in Ireland. The media try to paint a fake news picture of him. He is a great persuader, negotiator and very intelligent.

Erm....no!

relax carry on

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Erm....no!

For the love of God, don't feed.

PropJoe10

Owdetojoy wrote: »

He is very popular in America, Britain and in Ireland. The media try to paint a fake news picture of him. He is a great persuader, negotiator and very intelligent.

What?

Early contender for Boards.ie post of the year right there!

frag420

Eh....Obama has left the White House!?

Owdetojoy wrote: »

He is very popular in America, Britain and in Ireland. The media try to paint a fake news picture of him. He is a great persuader, negotiator and very intelligent.

everlast75

As ye have probably heard,

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/917091286607433728

like a good boy, Pence did what he was told.

https://twitter.com/VP/status/917074120084516865

There were an awful lot of fantastic replies, but I think this one took the proverbial biscuit..


https://twitter.com/adamwren/status/917105968487510017


I think perhaps Trump's use of Twitter has finally caught up on him.

alchemist33

Trump's been disrespecting American soldiers for years. Is Pence going to refuse to enter the White House in protest?

recedite

Pence didn't walk out during the national anthem. That's the big difference.

"While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I don't think it's too much to ask NFL players to respect the flag," Mr Pence added.

See the photo here.

For Forks Sake

everlast75 wrote: »

As ye have probably heard,

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/917091286607433728

like a good boy, Pence did what he was told.

https://twitter.com/VP/status/917074120084516865

There were an awful lot of fantastic replies, but I think this one took the proverbial biscuit..


https://twitter.com/adamwren/status/917105968487510017


I think perhaps Trump's use of Twitter has finally caught up on him.

VinLieger

Cynical manuevre to play to their naive base, they knew at least 1 player would kneel so he was always going to leave. He literally went to the game to protest a protest

For Forks Sake

VinLieger wrote: »

Cynical manuevre to play to their naive base, they knew at least 1 player would kneel so he was always going to leave. He literally went to the game to protest a protest

Cost of this stunt (AF2 to and from game, secret service detail etc) estimated at $250,000 minimum.

Drain the swamp indeed. :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali

recedite wrote: »

See the photo here.

Photo of Pence in a suit.

That's odd, since immediately before walking out, Pence tweeted a picture of himself at the game in a totally different outfit:

https://twitter.com/VP/status/917048886975500289

For Forks Sake

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Photo of Pence in a suit.

That's odd, since immediately before walking out, Pence tweeted a picture of himself at the game in a totally different outfit:

https://twitter.com/VP/status/917048886975500289

That photo (him + wife in Colts gear) is apparently from 2014

recedite

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's odd, since immediately before walking out, Pence tweeted a picture of himself at the game in a totally different outfit:

That was before he went to the stadium. So any reasonable person would assume the photo of him in the football shirt was taken at a previous game.

recedite

Whats your point here?
Are you saying Pence was never really at the game, or are you saying he is guilty of dressing inconsistently at different games?

Billy86

recedite wrote: »

Pence didn't walk out during the national anthem. That's the big difference.

See the photo here.

Doesn't matter, anyone who thinks the Dallas Cowboys disrespected the anthem by kneeling before it also thinks this was disrespecting the anthem by leaving after it. Of course they'll claim not, but that's just the standard hypocrisy of Trump supporters.

They knew players would kneel last night, this reeks of desperation by Trump/Pence to keep this story in the news and other ones out of it (like the whole Jared and Ivanka email thing for one).

B0jangles

recedite wrote: »

Whats your point here?
Are you saying Pence was never really at the game, or are you saying he is guilty of dressing inconsistently at different games?

I think the point is that by tweeting out that picture, Pence is giving the impression that he was just going to watch the game like a normal fan when in fact he had absolutely no intention of doing anything except staging a very expensive political farce. The plan was always to walk out - the fact that he had meetings scheduled just afterwards tells us that. He also wasted even more of the Secret Service's time and budget, when it has already been widely reported that they are already massively overstretched both financially and staff-wise because they have to trail around the world after all the younger Trumps.

For Forks Sake

Billy86 wrote: »

Doesn't matter, anyone who thinks the Dallas Cowboys disrespected the anthem by kneeling before it also thinks this was disrespecting the anthem by leaving after it. Of course they'll claim not, but that's just the standard hypocrisy of Trump supporters.

They knew players would kneel last night, this reeks of desperation by Trump/Pence to keep this story in the news and other ones out of it (like the whole Jared and Ivanka email thing for one).

Or Richard Spencer and friends revisiting Charlottesville yesterday

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

Whats your point here?
Are you saying Pence was never really at the game, or are you saying he is guilty of dressing inconsistently at different games?

The point is that "taking the knee" isn't disrespecting the flag. It's important that it be portrayed as disrespecting the flag, because otherwise the white supremacist in chief might be forced to confront the reason for the protest, as opposed to the current tack of demanding that any protest black people make be invisible to white people.

Mr.Micro

Trump the hypocrite. What does he respect? Nothing, maybe money. He left everything else behind years ago.

Leroy42

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

Trump and his supporters think that kneeling down is disrespecting the flag.

But openly carrying the flag of the the confederacy, that tried to destroy the country, the very definition of traitors, that is acceptable?

Surely the confederacy should be seen as one of the greatest enemies of the US?

For Forks Sake

Leroy42 wrote: »

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

Trump and his supporters think that kneeling down is disrespecting the flag.

But openly carrying the flag of the the confederacy, that tried to destroy the country, the very definition of traitors, that is acceptable?

Surely the confederacy should be seen as one of the greatest enemies of the US?

We are not dealing with normal people here.

Reebrock

What's the deal with the Verified accounts (all of which I've never heard of) seemingly systematically ragging on Trump on Twitter? It's like clock work and it's really weird.

Billy86

Reebrock wrote: »

What's the deal with the Verified accounts (all of which I've never heard of) seemingly systematically ragging on Trump on Twitter? It's like clock work and it's really weird.

Hardly surprising given how much of a shambles he is, but curious which do are referring to?

Reebrock

Billy86 wrote: »

Reebrock wrote: »

What's the deal with the Verified accounts (all of which I've never heard of) seemingly systematically ragging on Trump on Twitter? It's like clock work and it's really weird.

Hardly surprising given how much of a shambles he is, but curious which do are referring to?

All over his Tweets mate. If you click on any and read the responses they are right underneath and seemingly pushed to the top. Just Googled it to find some particular examples and found this which was quite funny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8IpHpwCXLw

Billy86

I took a look and still not getting your point here, are you trying to say these Twitter accounts that have Tweets going back years as well as thousands of followers are fake, or something else?

Also not sure what your point about the youtube video is, but it seems a little ironic considering the Buzzfeed story demfad posted earlier.

demfad

I posted this on the alt-right thread but relevant here to US election and considering Bannon was 'Chief Strategist' to POTUS45.

Article by Buzzfeed about Bannon, The Mercers, Milo and how they laundered and amplified hate from such despicables as 'the Daily Stormer' via Breitbart.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism?utm_term=.pyJlgxjlD#.tuvJA6aJ4

Twitter thread here for the more concise version:

https://twitter.com/slpng_giants/status/916064003176067072

They also used low paid Internet trolls (and the Mercers' vast propaganda network) to disseminate this information around the internet. It exposes (with emails, docs) that the alt-right is centered and propagandised around the media that these players control.

Reebrock

Billy86 wrote: »

I took a look and still not getting your point here, are you trying to say these Twitter accounts that have Tweets going back years as well as thousands of followers are fake, or something else?

Also not sure what your point about the youtube video is, but it seems a little ironic considering the Buzzfeed story demfad posted earlier.

No, and I'm not sure how you've jumped to that conclusion or how you are missing the point I am making, especially considering you said you've just looked yourself. I've just checked: first thing I see is a stream of Tweets not just a reply - just a literal log of Tweets. Every single time.

To me, it looks like attention seeking and hysterical behavior.

Billy86

The reason you've got me confused is because I didn't see that when I looked, the majority of responses were alt rights and other Trumpeteers posting memes.

Reebrock

Billy86 wrote: »

The reason you've got me confused is because I didn't see that when I looked, the majority of responses were alt rights and other Trumpeteers posting memes.

Are you going to make me cap and post? Because it is literally the complete opposite to what you are saying. I don't have a dog in this fight, but you are starting to sound hysterical yourself mate. Would I find lots of anti Trump posts if I were to search your post history here by any chance?

Manic Moran

oscarBravo wrote: »

recedite wrote: »

Whats your point here?
Are you saying Pence was never really at the game, or are you saying he is guilty of dressing inconsistently at different games?

The point is that "taking the knee" isn't disrespecting the flag. It's important that it be portrayed as disrespecting the flag, because otherwise the white supremacist in chief might be forced to confront the reason for the protest, as opposed to the current tack of demanding that any protest black people make be invisible to white people.

There's a third possibility, which a CNN opinion piece pointed out a day or two ago. The NFL folks have no intent or desire to disrespect or cause offense to the flag, the nation, the military etc. But whether they intend to or not, that is genuinely how it is being taken by a number of people.
By way of analogy, I would refer you to what I presume to be your standard issue sexual harrassment briefs in civilian employment. Whether or not you intend to cause offense or a hostile work environment etc is irrelevant, what is important is how it is received.
You can make arguments over whether or not the whole disrespect thing should have any merit, and, frankly, this whole anthem protest thing got out of hand months ago on both side, but the reality is that for a large segment of the population, it does have merit and it is an issue. You can't just hand-wave it away.

listermint

Manic Moran wrote: »

There's a third possibility, which a CNN opinion piece pointed out a day or two ago. The NFL folks have no intent or desire to disrespect or cause offense to the flag, the nation, the military etc. But whether they intend to or not, that is genuinely how it is being taken by a number of people.
By way of analogy, I would refer you to what I presume to be your standard issue sexual harrassment briefs in civilian employment. Whether or not you intend to cause offense or a hostile work environment etc is irrelevant, what is important is how it is received.
You can make arguments over whether or not the whole disrespect thing should have any merit, and, frankly, this whole anthem protest thing got out of hand months ago on both side, but the reality is that for a large segment of the population, it does have merit and it is an issue. You can't just hand-wave it away.

Which is it ?


Are these the same folks who walk the streets with automatic weapons claiming its in the constitution , Probably the same people giving out about black people on a knee during the anthem.

Those people ?

It appears that it can be just waved away because most normal people (middle of the road) are fine with this form of protest. But as with everything in the US right now its he who shouts loudest gets heard.

david75

An expensive stunt

https://twitter.com/vanityfair/status/917414368287117313

demfad

Manic Moran wrote: »

There's a third possibility, which a CNN opinion piece pointed out a day or two ago. The NFL folks have no intent or desire to disrespect or cause offense to the flag, the nation, the military etc. But whether they intend to or not, that is genuinely how it is being taken by a number of people.
By way of analogy, I would refer you to what I presume to be your standard issue sexual harrassment briefs in civilian employment. Whether or not you intend to cause offense or a hostile work environment etc is irrelevant, what is important is how it is received.
You can make arguments over whether or not the whole disrespect thing should have any merit, and, frankly, this whole anthem protest thing got out of hand months ago on both side, but the reality is that for a large segment of the population, it does have merit and it is an issue. You can't just hand-wave it away.

I don't think that is a good analogy at all.

With sexual harassment it is not usually a case of what you intended vs how it is received. It is usually a little more clearcut than that. You are trying to imply that all it takes is for the person to perceive offence even if this position is unreasonable or unwarranted. This is not the case at all.
Such cases generally involve physical and/or verbal elements and usually are clearcut. So (on the light side) if a guy for example continually makes sexual jokes around a woman he would be guilty of an harrassment charge from her in almost all circumstances.
If a guy continually walks into models dressing rooms (Donald Trump) a defense of 'owning the pageant' should not save him, not should a claim that they 'didnt mind'.

The people 'offended' by this NFL thing on the other hand have no equivalence to a person who was sexually harrassed, can not even make a reasonable argument why these actions were unduly hurtful to them personally.

oscarBravo

Manic Moran wrote: »

There's a third possibility, which a CNN opinion piece pointed out a day or two ago. The NFL folks have no intent or desire to disrespect or cause offense to the flag, the nation, the military etc. But whether they intend to or not, that is genuinely how it is being taken by a number of people.

Yes. It's being taken that way, because it's easier to yell about how they're disrespecting the flag than to try to understand why they're protesting in the first place.

I think it's safe to say that a significant percentage of the people who have chosen to take offence at the kneeling protest don't have any problem with stars'n'stripes bandanas, or shirts, or paper napkins, or bumper stickers with text superimposed, or whatever. They're making a choice as to what they consider "disrespect", and demanding that it be stopped. If it were to be pointed out to them that an Old Glory T-shirt could be considered disrespectful by others, would they immediately and without quibble stop wearing them?

You can make arguments over whether or not the whole disrespect thing should have any merit, and, frankly, this whole anthem protest thing got out of hand months ago on both side, but the reality is that for a large segment of the population, it does have merit and it is an issue.

I agree, but I'd venture to suggest that the whole "disrespect for the flag" brouhaha is little more than a dog-whistle for "uppity blacks not knowing their place".

If anyone genuinely believes it's disrespectful to take a knee during the anthem, fair enough - but I'd love to know how many of them came to that belief post-Kaepernick. I'd also like to hear their views on what they'd consider an appropriate form of protest, other than "something I don't have to be aware of".

eagle eye

A lot of Americans spend time in the armed forces or reserves and to them this would be considered disrespecting the national anthem and the country.

I suppose you'd understand it better if you lived there for a while. They are very serious about this type of stuff.

I think if you had a printed t-shirt to wear during the national anthem that it would get your message across without upsetting so many people.

spacecoyote

eagle eye wrote: »

A lot of Americans spend time in the armed forces or reserves and to them this would be considered disrespecting the national anthem and the country.

I suppose you'd understand it better if you lived there for a while. They are very serious about this type of stuff.

I think if you had a printed t-shirt to wear during the national anthem that it would get your message across without upsetting so many people.

A printed t-shirt doesn't have the same physical impact as a man bent to one knee though

Good article on 538 about the differences in american opinions on the protests:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-do-americans-feel-about-the-nfl-protests-it-depends-on-how-you-ask/

oscarBravo

eagle eye wrote: »

A lot of Americans spend time in the armed forces or reserves and to them this would be considered disrespecting the national anthem and the country.

Then maybe a conversation needs to be had about whether the country deserves the respect that those people are reflexively demanding for it.

If they ever figure out how to direct their outrage from "how dare you disrespect our flag!" to the much more constructive direction of "why are you disrespecting our flag?", the protests will have achieved their aim. But as long as people are demanding that other people stop protesting, while refusing to make an effort to understand why they are protesting, then they are wilfully continuing to be part of the problem.

I suppose you'd understand it better if you lived there for a while. They are very serious about this type of stuff.

I've spent a few chunks of time (up to several weeks at a time) in the US over the past couple of decades. I understand that some Americans are upset about the protests. I'm just asking that they channel that unhappiness towards understanding and addressing the reasons for the protest rather than reflexively dismissing any suggestion that the USA is anything less than perfect in every conceivable way.

Sonics2k

eagle eye wrote: »

A lot of Americans spend time in the armed forces or reserves and to them this would be considered disrespecting the national anthem and the country.

I suppose you'd understand it better if you lived there for a while. They are very serious about this type of stuff.

I think if you had a printed t-shirt to wear during the national anthem that it would get your message across without upsetting so many people.

If Trump respected the Flag and Veterans so much, then why would he want to cut funding to them?

https://www.stripes.com/news/va-backs-off-budget-proposal-to-cut-benefits-for-disabled-unemployable-vets-1.473551

What's far more likely is that Trump is stirring the pot in an effort to boost his rating with the more right-wing folk he's been losing over the last few months. Nothing like a bit of racial tension to increase your ratings.

oscarBravo

spacecoyote wrote: »

Good article on 538 about the differences in american opinions on the protests:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-do-americans-feel-about-the-nfl-protests-it-depends-on-how-you-ask/

That is a good article. This jumped out at me:

But 40 percent said the protests were trying to disrespect the flag, while 33 percent said the goal was to disrespect the military.

That is an objectively stupid thing for those people to say. There is no rational basis for a belief that the object of the protest is to disrespect the flag or the military.

It's a symptom of a point-blank refusal of some people to consider any point of view other than their own. It's a real problem with how divided American society has become.

Itssoeasy

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/917172144710103040

The Donald not liking the fact that he's not getting glowing praise for what he "did" for Puerto Rico.

Leroy42

eagle eye wrote: »

A lot of Americans spend time in the armed forces or reserves and to them this would be considered disrespecting the national anthem and the country.

I suppose you'd understand it better if you lived there for a while. They are very serious about this type of stuff.

I think if you had a printed t-shirt to wear during the national anthem that it would get your message across without upsetting so many people.

Unless they didn't agree with the message!

Kneeling down isn't that disrespectful. If they were laughing or turning their back I could understand but this seems a very polite protest.

I doubt very much that they could do anything to please certain people.

everlast75

Itssoeasy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/917172144710103040

The Donald not liking the fact that he's not getting glowing praise for what he "did" for Puerto Rico.

It's true! Name one other president who launched paper towels to those who needed it.

Ffs - he's like a petulant child, expecting praise from one and all and criticism from none.

BoatMad

eagle eye wrote: »

A lot of Americans spend time in the armed forces or reserves and to them this would be considered disrespecting the national anthem and the country.

I suppose you'd understand it better if you lived there for a while. They are very serious about this type of stuff.

I think if you had a printed t-shirt to wear during the national anthem that it would get your message across without upsetting so many people.

the abuse outcry against the US flag is a very selective thing in the US. The flag is regularly abused on t-shirts, napkins, panties etc .

Having lived there, the US would be a better place if the population were a bit more cynical and less reverential in general. Jingoism is a bad idea.

spacecoyote

Itssoeasy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/917172144710103040

The Donald not liking the fact that he's not getting glowing praise for what he "did" for Puerto Rico.

Its hilarious how anything good being done is "I did it" as if he was flying the helicopter & delivering the packages personally

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

Kneeling down isn't that disrespectful.

Kneeling while black is obviously much worse.

Igotadose

eagle eye wrote: »

A lot of Americans spend time in the armed forces or reserves and to them this would be considered disrespecting the national anthem and the country.

I suppose you'd understand it better if you lived there for a while. They are very serious about this type of stuff.

I think if you had a printed t-shirt to wear during the national anthem that it would get your message across without upsetting so many people.

I thought this was interesting, 538 looked into the percentage of the US Population that has ever been in the military - around 7% going back to WWII. Bigger than I thought it was - active military is less than 1%.https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-percentage-of-americans-have-served-in-the-military/

Of course, lots of people respect the flag because they're American, whether they've been in the military or not. Some states have big military presence due to miltary bases and geographic location, like Florida and California, and imo porkbarrel politics like Texas.

But this kerfuffle isn't about military or flag respect -it's about being affronted by a guy who had the temerity to stand up for what he felt. And it's entirely due to Trump's need for ratings and clicks, heck, he even used the VP to garner more media interest.

Leroy42

But you have got to hand it to Trump, he is pretty good at defining the narrative.

How many people now follow the line, trotted out by Trump and yesterday by Pence, that this is about disrespecting the flag, military of the anthem. It is about none of those things. It is a protest about black people seemingly being targeted by police and the legal system apparently not being able to do anything about it.

Of course most people would be against people disrespecting the flag. I don't like it is people talk during the anthem etc. So trot out that line and get people riled up about the terribleness of it all.

Samaris

The irony is that the obvious argument is that the military and flag represents the rights of the people to express, amongst other things, their First Amendment rights.

The narrative that has been spun cynically does away with those rights by telling absolute porkies about what the protesters are doing. And the government has gotten involved through the big mouth of Donald Trump.

You really couldn't make some of this stuff up.

Peregrinus

everlast75 wrote: »

It's true! Name one other president who launched paper towels to those who needed it.

Well, they are absorbent paper towels, remember. What better way of dealing with a flood?

And you're forgetting the golf trophy that he dedicated to the victims of the flood!

He has to have some diagnosable condition, seriously.

Leroy42

Peregrinus wrote: »

He has to have some diagnosable condition, seriously.

Do you mean some medical condition that is negatively effecting him?

Then I don't so. I just think he is so out of touch, so removed from normal behaviour. I don't just mean because of him money or being an elite (although that is the root cause of it). He has been allowed to wallow in this self created world where he can do and say whatever he likes and is surrounded by those than rely on him for their very existence.

Ivanka and Jared. His sons. His wives. It not just that they like him, they need him for their lives. Unlike most families where the children outgrow the parents, his children are still under his complete control.

He has never had to suffer for any bad decision. He pays people to clean up any mess he creates and therefore he cannot understand why other people cannot sort out the mess they are in.

In terms of PR, you see it in that he blamed the lack of decent infrastructure for making it so bad. Not the hurricane. They failed to buy the right stuff to protect themselves. He now blames the people for not doing enough. He would have bought in water, a generator. Or simply flown to somewhere else. Why are they staying there if things are so bad. That is the way he thinks.

I bet that he has very rarely been told that he is at fault. You even see it with the GOP. They are all so scared of him that they cannot bring themselves to actually tell him to sort himself out. No matter what he does, how crazy he sounds, he has someone there to tell him that everyone else is wrong.

Trump has the one thing that Americans value above everything else. The power to generate money. That is so many are so enthralled. He offers them the possibility of making money. People believe that he has the midas touch. Sticking with him, no matter what, will ultimately lead to some of that magic rubbing off. Of course there is ample evidence to suggest that this is nothing more than fantasy. He has as many failures as success's. It appears that so every person that does well with him, there are plenty that are left worse off.

But in America those that 'fail' are quickly forgotten. How many people still mention that the current POTUS settled a fraud case for $25m as he as being sworn in? Or that he has had 3 bankruptcies?

He has spent his whole life doing and saying whatever he likes and now he has been given the biggest approval of all of that. No matter what he says he will always of the likes of SHS, KellyAnne, Bannon, Miller etc to give him credit.

That is why is rails against the media so much. He cannot understand why they don't simply bow to him. Don't they understand that he is good for ratings? They need him, and therefore they should get in line like the others