Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

. . . If there are questions to be asked, then they revolve around why the congresswoman was riding in the car with the soldier's widow at that time. Was she hoping to pick up on something that she could use for political point scoring? Its exactly the sort of slimy politicking that lost the last election for the democrats. Perhaps we will even see this widow brought out before the crowd at the next democrat Convention? Is nothing beyond the pale for them?
As Kelly said, some things should be kept out of the political arena and left private.

The Congresswoman could hardly have known that Trump was going to choose this particularly inopportune moment to ring the woman, could she?

But, seriously, a public representative who attends the funeral of a constituent who has died on active service is engaged in "slimy politicking" now, is she? The President rings the widow on her way the funeral and that's fine and dandy, but the Congresswoman who accompanies here to the funeral is doing something beyond the pale?

I'm not convinced it's the Congresswoman who is setting out to politicise a gesure of sympathy and solidarity here, Rec. I think it might be you.

listermint

recedite wrote: »

Its sad that you can't recognise the heartfelt honesty and sincerity in that televised statement from General Kelly, and instead imply that he is a liar.
I can only assume that you cannot recognise these qualities because you lack them yourself.

If there are questions to be asked, then they revolve around why the congresswoman was riding in the car with the soldier's widow at that time. Was she hoping to pick up on something that she could use for political point scoring? Its exactly the sort of slimy politicking that lost the last election for the democrats. Perhaps we will even see this widow brought out before the crowd at the next democrat Convention? Is nothing beyond the pale for them?
As Kelly said, some things should be kept out of the political arena and left private.

I have to be honest, this is extremely rich considering the methods deployed by the saviour Trump during his campaign.

It smacks of attempts to play the victim, the victim here being Trump and not the Widow who he first made feel terrible then called a liar



Tiring stuff that people can support that form of rubbish. But sure 'its the other side' 'boooooo'' and all that...

Leroy42

So the line from Kelly, after we were originally told by Trump that it was all lies and SHS refused to deny he said it, Kelly wants he to believe that Trump was doing his best and that the real villain of the piece is the congresswoman for telling the truth.

Despite the fact that Kelly himself told Trump not to make the call but Trump insisted. Then Trump makes a mess of it, and we are supposed to believe that this is simply a lack of skill on his part. The POTUS, the man that has to lead America and the world, does not have the ability to make a phone call?

How is he supposed to be trusted to deal with other difficult discussions. Kelly basically took the line that everything that happened is true, (despite Trump calling it fake) but that its ok as Trump is useless at it, but at least he tried.

That is the level that is acceptable to people from the highest office in the land?

So there are a few questions that come out of this. Why did Trump call the congresswoman a liar and say he had proof when it is clear that he was lying? Will Trump no apologise for smearing the Congresswoman? Will SHS offer an apology for lying during the press briefing? WHy should we believe Kelly when so far the Trump administration has failed to tell the truth.

I get it. Kelly comes across as sincere, believable, the press conference was very good. But is there to back up a, by his own admission, liar. Is this just the latest version to make it more believable. We tried Trump, the SHS and neither worked so send out Kelly. So why would we believe Kelly? It is easy enough to play at sincerity, its actions that matter.

He said he was stunned that the congresswoman made it political. Never mentioned being stunned that the POTUS was a liar. That the POTUS tried to besmirch previous POTUS. He talked about the values of the past, respect etc. Did he say how he was going to make work with POTUS to bring him into that line?

No, none of that. It was, admittedly very polished and good, performance. This is the second time in a number of weeks that Kelly has had to be sent out to try to cover up the POTUS. SHS has failed, Trump makes the problem worse.

Will Trump now come out and admit that, although trying his best, he failed to match the level expected of POTUS and that he has learned from the experience and will work hard to ensure that he provides the leadership to all the families of the fallen from now on?

No, lets attack the congresswoman, or the media, or the dems. There is probably a HC e-mail somewhere. Kelly had the opportunity to stand up for his America, for the America that he fought for and send others into battle for. And instead he choose to protect the man that even he admits is a liar.

Christy42

Colsin91 wrote: »

Now that more and more negative stories are pouring out from Washington, his supporters will feel vindicated. It is will further strengthen their beliefs that there is some ongoing conspiracy to maintain the status quo. They will see the negative stories as increasingly desperate attempts by the establishment to prevent him from rocking the boat, and proof that he is doing something write.

I read the Washington Post, but I try to keep an open mind and read the different online editions in the US. The problem is this massive gulf between the publications; on on hand CNN denounces any form of Trumpism, or traditionally conservative values. Fox on the other hand tells us sycophantically how wonderful Trump is, and how America needs to return to its grassroots. Either extreme is just too far apart to appeal to the opposite side, so they end up dismissing the opposing views, and feeling more strongly about their held views. What the US needs is some middle ground.

The thing that scares me is that Trump may very well be elected again if he runs. Who ever thought that he would get into presidency in the first place?

If less negative stories come out they will feel they have beaten the press and vindicated. If more negative stories come out they will feel vindicated. If the same amount comes out they will feel vindicated.

No matter what happens they will decide it vindicates them.

Centerism is not that answer. Going for the in between section merely rewards the party willing to go more extreme as it will drag the center line with it.

Christy42

recedite wrote: »

Its sad that you can't recognise the heartfelt honesty and sincerity in that televised statement from General Kelly, and instead imply that he is a liar.
I can only assume that you cannot recognise these qualities because you lack them yourself.

If there are questions to be asked, then they revolve around why the congresswoman was riding in the car with the soldier's widow at that time. Was she hoping to pick up on something that she could use for political point scoring? Its exactly the sort of slimy politicking that lost the last election for the democrats. Perhaps we will even see this widow brought out before the crowd at the next democrat Convention? Is nothing beyond the pale for them?
As Kelly said, some things should be kept out of the political arena and left private.

Kelly may believe what he said. He had some off topic stuff I would disagree with but have no doubt he believes as well.

I did not mean to imply he was definitely lying (I get how it could read that way though). The conversation he recalled could have happened. He may believe that Trump cares about those who die for their country.

I do not share Kelly's belief if he does believe it. Having said that he is a man with a very good name willingly allying with people with bad names in this regard. I don't mean to imply he is definitely telling the truth. I am unsure with him.

My view is that he is either lying or mistaken.

VinLieger

recedite wrote: »

Its sad that you can't recognise the heartfelt honesty and sincerity in that televised statement from General Kelly, and instead imply that he is a liar.
I can only assume that you cannot recognise these qualities because you lack them yourself.

If there are questions to be asked, then they revolve around why the congresswoman was riding in the car with the soldier's widow at that time. Was she hoping to pick up on something that she could use for political point scoring? Its exactly the sort of slimy politicking that lost the last election for the democrats. Perhaps we will even see this widow brought out before the crowd at the next democrat Convention? Is nothing beyond the pale for them?
As Kelly said, some things should be kept out of the political arena and left private.

Yet hypocritically you are fine with trump coming out and lying about previous presidents specifically Obama not calling families to also score political points.......

B00MSTICK

The difference between Gen. Kelly and Trump/the majority of the talking heads is quite stark.

I think it was heartfelt and honest as mentioned below but also succinct and accurate.

Manic Moran wrote:

The simplest and most likely explanation is that Trump actually tried to give an honest condolence, and flubbed the delivery. Then he reverted back to form in the subsequent media frenzy.

Would 100% agree with this. However...

Gen. Kelly mentioned numerous things in his speech that basically confirmed what we know about Trump:

(1) He doesn't listen to aides/advisors - he does what he wants.
General Kelly advised Trump not to make the call. He knows Trump has a history of messing up even basic communications. He told him this would be particularly difficult and that not all presidents call the next-of-kin of every fallen soldier.
Trump ignored this and went ahead with it - maybe because he really wanted to show support or maybe because of what was mentioned about previous presidents...

(2) He will often repeat the last bit of information that was said to him or whatever part of that he latched onto.
Gen. Kelly said he told Trump the story of the call he received in relation to the death of his son.
This call was not made by Obama. This call was made by, according to the man himself, his best friend but also his acting casualty officer. This was a person who had more than likely known John's son, he obviously serves in the army in a very specific and difficult role, I have no idea if he served in other branches previously but this was a person who completely understood the situation and was certainly able to be empathetic.
Again referring to Gen. Kelly's speech, Trump had not served in the military, had never put on the uniform, and never experienced anything close to it.
Someone like this would be completely unable to say anything close to "he knew what he was signing up for"...
We have no idea of the exact words Trump used, but given how utterly inept he is at communicating it is highly possible he did not include any of the context that Gen. Kelly's casualty officer said to him.
As I said in the title, Trump more than likely simply latched on to this point and blurted it out without emotion or any explanation/reasoning.

(3) His disdain for Obama
I eluded to this earlier, as much as I don't want to believe it, I do think that once Gen. Kelly said Obama didn't always call the families of the fallen, a light went on in Trump's head and he thought this is something I can do to get one over on him.

(4) Women are/were sacred
Kelly mentioned the fact that some things were and should be sacred and that it doesn't seem that way anymore. He specifically mentioned women being sacred. I don't need to mention what we already know about Trumps attitude to women.

I'm sure theres more but this is what I took from watching it last night...

So in summary while I do think the member of congress did go a bit overboard and the media did go into a bit of a frenzy - the scenario and speech Gen. Kelly gave still highlights some of Trumps issues.
Additionally anything that Trump said after the story broke are all on him. Gen. Kelly was right to limit his speech and questions to very specific topics.

Tony EH

VinLieger wrote: »

Yet hypocritically you are fine with trump coming out and lying about previous presidents specifically Obama not calling families to also score political points.......

Never underestimate the power of sheer willful blindness when it comes to Team A and Team B politics.

ECO_Mental

Every day I am fully convinced that Trumpski is living in an alternate universe where, up is down, Black is white and fake stuff is real.......for example his fake Renoir Painting he hangs in his living room that he claims is real:eek:?????? Even though the original is in museum in Chicago.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/fake-art-donald-trump-boasts-has-original-renoir-chicago-gallery/

This follows on from the fake Time Magazine covers he hangs around his golf clubs. The guy is literally delusional he does not not know what is real or fake truth or lies I really believe he doesn't. If you think about this its really scary for the position he is in

Leroy42

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Every day I am fully convinced that Trumpski is living in an alternate universe where, up is down, Black is white and fake stuff is real.......for example his fake Renoir Painting he hangs in his living room that he claims is real:eek:?????? Even though the original is in museum in Chicago.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/fake-art-donald-trump-boasts-has-original-renoir-chicago-gallery/

This follows on from the fake Time Magazine covers he hangs around his golf clubs. The guy is literally delusional he does not not know what is real or fake truth or lies I really believe he doesn't. If you think about this its really scary for the position he is in

What is more worrying than his own issues is that so many people are unable to see it for themselves.

In an age where we have access to the greatest level of information ever, when literally billions are spent every year across the country on education, this is what we end up with? A populace that is as malleable to the con man as the tribes in the jungle or the uneducated masses.

A massive cohort of citizens that are so eager to dispense with even the notion of fact checking and critical thinking in lieu of the sayings of a man they know to be a liar.

aloyisious

Manic Moran wrote: »

With respect to the third paragraph, they mesh in exactly the same way that both Kelly, in his statement, and I, in my previous post, indicated it would. Yes, we know what we signed up for. We did it anyway. We view it as a matter of pride, not as an insulting comment.

Yes, the risk comes with the job and we know that but go ahead volunteering.

The problem with Don is that he seems never to have [or had] been in positions where he had to work out how to sort a mess out himself without help, giving him a base of actual grounded experience or training. The result is he just flails round like a drowning man taking people down with him instead of saying [as it were] to his auto-react self "shut up while I work this out sensibly".

Phonehead

How anyone can try to somehow defend Trump on this!!! well they really need to examine their own moral compass. Yes! we all know that signing up to the armed forces/police etc has risks, risks that equate to a bad day equals a day that you may be killed. When that day happens you do not say, oh well, he/she knew what they signed up for. The grieving family are well aware that he/she knew the risks. Now let's be entirely honest here, we all know why Trump said what he said, he was on the defensive the minute he placed that call, his mind is so twisted that he wanted to point out from the get-go that it wasn't his fault, just in case the grieving woman in her moments of despair lashed out to blame the Commander in chief for her husbands death. The man has disgusting lack of empathy AND anyone who defends him really needs to ask themselves just what sort of human am I? Rant over.... that felt good :-)

demfad

ECO_Mental wrote: »

If you think about this its really scary for the position he is in

Scary that a man like him is on the position and that a man like him can get elected to then position. The latter point highlights that the problems in the US go way deeper than Trump.

Leroy42

I think US democracy is certainly heading towards disaster and with it the current position of the US in the world. You only have to look at China to see that other countries are far more focused and working in unison (there is of course a whole other debate about the rights and wrongs of China etc).

IMO, American voters are using their votes in purely selfish ways. Of course we all vote in a way we think will benefit us the most but in the US it seems that voters, or a significant portion of them, are focused purely on what is in their interests and have little concern as to the wider context or implications. So they will continue to support Trump in the face of all the evidence because of gun rights, or coal jobs or whatever happens to be there particular hobbyhorse.

However, whilst it may appear that the GOP, and the more fundamentalist side of America is winning, it is interesting to note that despite HC being such a figure of hatred, despite Trump supporters telling everyone that people are fed up with PC nonsense, that the HC won the popular vote and Trump continues to bounce around at historic low level of approval - and historic high level of disapproval - despite things in the US being relatively good at the present time.

From the GOP POV, the fractures that have been evident since Reagan, which manifest themselves in the Tea Party and now Trump point to a continuing disjointed nature of their voting base. It is clear, and Bannon in particular is focused on this, that there are sections of GOP support that are moving ever more 'right' and are not being serviced by a GOp thorn between the centre ground and the right.

This will only help the more 'left' leaning politicians as they will now be facing a splintered opponent rather than the unified GOP force that they have to date. Whether this will happen by 2018 is in question (unlikely would be my view) but the past 10/15 years shows a clear trajectory that the GOP will have to face up at some point.

The healthcare debacle is a clear case in point. It failed, not because there was disagreement within the GOP of the need to remove and replace, but because within the GOP itself there are such wide variations in what they want to do. It became impossible to find a solution that would satisfy all camps and each camp decided that sticking to their ideals was better that accepting compromise in the name of RnR.

Overheal

I'm ready for the Pence Presidency already

Overheal

Wow speaking of paid protestors,

https://lawnewz.com/crazy/3-arrested-for-trying-to-kill-protester-after-richard-spencer-speech/

Both William Fears and Tyler TenBrink were previously photographed at the Charlottesville rally. All three of them hail from Texas.

At a rally this week at the University of Florida Richard Spencer was shouted down during his speech and some unsavory things happened in the streets at some point that evening:

"The arrest reports and press release said that a silver Jeep containing the three men pulled up to a bus stop where protesters were sitting. One of the suspects started yelling Heil Hitler and other chants. Things escalated. There was an argument, and one of the protesters used to a baton to strike the Jeep’s rear window, police say. The protesters told police that the Jeep drove 10 feet, and stopped. Tenbrink allegedly stepped out with a handgun, while the Fears brothers egged him on to “shoot them” and “kill them.” He opened fire. The bullet missed.

The Jeep left the scene, but one of the victims took note of the license plate, so investigators were able to find the vehicle pretty quickly. Tenbrink allegedly admitted opening fire. At least two of the defendants have links to “extremist groups,” police said. The Fears each face a count of attempted homicide. Meanwhile, the alleged shooter faces a count of attempted homicide, and a count of possession of a firearm by a convicted felony. Jail records were not clear on whether they have an attorney. The brothers remain locked up on $1,000,000 bond and Tenbrink on $3,000,000."

Arrest report: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wxwf9ms6grxfr5r/AACnldc9cIOBqw1YTjt0geD_a/FEARS%2C%20COLTON%20GENE.pdf?dl=0

Photographs and identities of Charlottesville rally antagonists, incl. Tenbrink and William Fears: http://melanoidnation.org/charlottesville-terror-identifying-the-neo-nazis-by-name/

Will be interesting to see who foots their bail.

Billy86

They really are eager to prove just how correct the mayor of Gainesville was for calling the alt right and Richard Spencer what they are - terrorists.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/356261-gainesville-mayor-richard-spencer-is-a-terrorist-leader

Overheal

Billy86 wrote: »

They really are eager to prove just how correct the mayor of Gainesville was for calling the alt right and Richard Spencer what they are - terrorists.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/356261-gainesville-mayor-richard-spencer-is-a-terrorist-leader

And that was BEFORE his acolytes opened fire on protesters.

mcmoustache

John Kelly said...

"And a congresswoman stood up, and in a long tradition of empty barrels making the most noise, stood up there in all of that and talked about how she was instrumental in getting the funding for that building, and how she took care of her constituents because she got the money, and she just called up President (Barack) Obama, and on that phone call, he gave the money, the $20 million, to build the building, and she sat down," Kelly said. "And we were stunned, stunned that she'd done it. Even for someone that is that empty a barrel, we were stunned."

Frederica Wilson responded...

Wilson said Kelly’s comment was a fabrication, that she wasn’t even elected to Congress when the funding for the building was approved.

You might think that this is a he-said-she-said situation. You might think that one of them is lying. If only there was a video where we could find out.

Edit: Video removed from YT. Here's a link.

Kelly really should know better than to join in on the lying and character assassination that comes from his boss.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Congresswoman could hardly have known that Trump was going to choose this particularly inopportune moment to ring the woman, could she?

But, seriously, a public representative who attends the funeral of a constituent who has died on active service is engaged in "slimy politicking" now, is she? The President rings the widow on her way the funeral and that's fine and dandy, but the Congresswoman who accompanies here to the funeral is doing something beyond the pale?

As we all know, politicians are fond of appearing at funerals. It applies just as much in Ireland. I don't particularly like it (unless they are actually a friend of the family) but neither do I object to it.
What I object to is listening in to the President's phone conversation with the bereaved and then using it to try and score political points.

Its an own goal by the congresswoman as far as I'm concerned (and Gen Kelly obviously feels the same way)
Interesting though, that so many here think its a goal against Trump.
I suppose there's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Timberrrrrrrr

recedite wrote: »

As we all know, politicians are fond of appearing at funerals. It applies just as much in Ireland. I don't particularly like it (unless they are actually a friend of the family) but neither do I object to it.
What I object to is listening in to the President's phone conversation with the bereaved and then using it to try and score political points.

Its an own goal by the congresswoman as far as I'm concerned (and Gen Kelly obviously feels the same way)
Interesting though, that so many here think its a goal against Trump.
I suppose there's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

You don't think he should be pulled up for his (continuous) lies?

Inquitus

Kelly sent out to take the flak for Trump's words to the fallen again today, seems he gave Trump the words to use. Sad to see him reduced to this.

Overheal

Inquitus wrote: »

Kelly sent out to take the flak for Trump's words to the fallen again today, seems he gave Trump the words to use. Sad to see him reduced to this.

I doubt he cares much about it. He probably feels he is there to stop Trump from actually doing irreparable harm. Being his middle man because trump can't wipe is own mess is just an unfortunate side feature.

recedite

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You don't think he should be pulled up for his (continuous) lies?

Trump denies saying "what the congresswoman said he said" but unless you have a transcript of the phone conversation, it is a bit premature to call him a liar.

eagle eye

recedite wrote:

Trump denies saying "what the congresswoman said he said" but unless you have a transcript of the phone conversation it is a bit premature to call him a liar.

Nice to see somebody with a bit of common sense in this thread.
I wouldn't be surprised if he did do it but I'm not swallowing all the rubbish you read in the media whether that be mainstream or social. There are a lot of lies being told by everybody, including Trump, imo.

Inquitus

Seems Kelly lied about the congresswoman, she wasn't even elected when funding was secured for the building and never mentioned it in her speech, a video of which has turned up.

https://shareblue.com/video-proves-john-kelly-lied-about-gold-star-widows-congresswoman-to-cover-for-trump/

pitifulgod

recedite wrote: »

Trump denies saying "what the congresswoman said he said" but unless you have a transcript of the phone conversation, it is a bit premature to call him a liar.

He said he has 'evidence', just like he has the Comey tapes. He has produced neither because he never backs up why anything bad about him is supposed a lie or fake news. Based on Kelly's comments, he badly paraphrased what Kelly told him to say. Trump consistently lies, we have both the congresswoman and the soldier's widow backing up that he said it...

Maybe you should try to be more discerning about what Trump says and does? You currently ignore it or view the ridiculous as praiseworthy. He continues to behave in a disgraceful manner as president...

Overheal

eagle eye wrote: »

Nice to see somebody with a bit of common sense in this thread.
I wouldn't be surprised if he did do it but I'm not swallowing all the rubbish you read in the media whether that be mainstream or social. There are a lot of lies being told by everybody, including Trump, imo.

This is what Trump wants: tell enough lies and you won't be able to trust anything you hear. Your post demonstrates the objective of the post-truth movement.

Timberrrrrrrr

recedite wrote: »

Trump denies saying "what the congresswoman said he said" but unless you have a transcript of the phone conversation, it is a bit premature to call him a liar.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then chances are it's a duck!

He has been proven to be a consistent liar so what makes you think he isn't lying this time?

Overheal

Trump also said he had the tapes of the conversation, quite loudly and boldly.

It was quickly determined that was either a) a lie or b) they have the tape, and it proves he said exactly what was reported.

"The answer is no, according to White House press secretary Sarah Sanders. On Wednesday afternoon, she was asked by CNN's Sara Murray about the "proof," and told reporters in the briefing room that "there were several people in the room from the administration that were on the call, including the chief of staff, Gen. John Kelly." In short, no audio record -- meaning Trump's evidence begins and ends with his word and those of his aides."

mayo.mick

https://twitter.com/AP/status/921443659245121536

Overheal

I'd complain but that was also the closing price for a jug of Scezhaun "Mulan McNugget Dipping" Sauce back in April.

Billy86

recedite wrote: »

Trump denies saying "what the congresswoman said he said" but unless you have a transcript of the phone conversation, it is a bit premature to call him a liar.

eagle eye wrote: »

Nice to see somebody with a bit of common sense in this thread.
I wouldn't be surprised if he did do it but I'm not swallowing all the rubbish you read in the media whether that be mainstream or social. There are a lot of lies being told by everybody, including Trump, imo.

The mother of the dead soldier has also come out to say that Trump did disrespect her son and family. Is she lying?

Leroy42

Sorry Recedite and Eagle Eye. SHS didn't deny it, only said it was taken out of context. Then Kelly came on to say where Trump got the notion from and explain what it meant and that the same thing had been said to him.

The Congresswoman says he said it. The wife said he said it. The mother said he said it.

But you think it premature to call him a liar, but you are counting all the others as liars?

You are quite entitled to claim that what he said isn't that bad, or that the congresswoman was wrong, but to stick to Trumps line that he didn't say it at all? Really?

Billy86

Well now Leroy, at least Trump has form here or anything...

Chris Baldridge, whose son, Army Sgt. Dillon Baldridge, was killed in June in Afghanistan. Baldridge told The Post that Trump offered him a $25,000 check and offered to help establish an online fundraiser for the family in his phone call following the death, but the president apparently did not follow through.

"I could not believe he was saying that, and I wish I had it recorded because the man did say this," Baldridge said. "He said, 'No other president has ever done something like this,' but he said, 'I'm going to do it.'"

The White House paid this - after the story came out. But not without having a hissy fit and calling the media "disgusting" for allowing the Gold Star father of a dead soldier to speak to them and have his voice heard.

But at least they got a call from him, I guess...

Among the people who spoke up about not having received a phone call from the president was Mark Hunter, whose son, Army Sgt. Jonathon M. Hunter, died in a suicide bombing attack in Afghanistan in August. Hunter told the AP that he was told to expect a call from Trump, but that it did not happen.

"Disappointed that he at least didn't call and thank me for my son and our ultimate sacrifice," he said. "That's all I wanted to hear. He didn't have to say nothing else. That's all I wanted to hear. From him — not the vice president."

Or maybe he's gone so far that like this guy, they'd just rather he keep the f*** out at this point...

Ryan Cross, a veteran of Afghanistan whose brother, Benjamin Cross, was one of three US servicemembers killed when a military plane crashed off the coast of Australia earlier this year, said he felt sick that Trump was "using fallen service members to score political points."

"Especially when his claims of reaching out to every Gold Star family are completely false,” Cross told The Portland Press Herald in a text message Thursday.

"Personally, I'd rather not hear from him given that I don't believe he has any clue as to what service and sacrifice really mean, nor does he understand the gravity of what we as members of the armed forces, veterans and their families risk and have risked," he added.

But hey, we all knew this long ago - including those who appear to be insinuating that the mother of this dead soldier is lying about the call at her own own son's funeral because, well, "fake nooz and stuff"... this is not the first time Trump has disrespected a grieving Gold Star mother.

(she of course responded - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l258VQGb394 )

But hey, he's a big enough scumbag to lie about giving money to veteran's charities, so none of us should be surprised.

And none of us should believe a single word he says unless he definitively proves it.





Don't forget... respect the troops folks! Respect the flag and the troops!

mcmoustache

recedite wrote: »

Trump denies saying "what the congresswoman said he said" but unless you have a transcript of the phone conversation, it is a bit premature to call him a liar.

eagle eye wrote: »

Nice to see somebody with a bit of common sense in this thread.
I wouldn't be surprised if he did do it but I'm not swallowing all the rubbish you read in the media whether that be mainstream or social. There are a lot of lies being told by everybody, including Trump, imo.

How does it feel to repeatedly defend Trump's lies only to be proven wrong by Trump himself or video evidence soon after? Personally, I'd feel kinda dumb or at the very least, conned.

This cycle keeps repeating itself. Trump lies, people defend the lies and then the lies get proven to be lies. after it happens enough times you'd think people would learn.

Samaris

Sigh.

Shocking, but not remotely surprising. Not so much the original conversation - even that phrase, it easily could have been Trump just failing at the whole comforter-in-chief thing, which is something he is roundly awful at. I found Kelly's explanation pretty plausible; that Trump is an ass who forgot to get any further or give any context to the whole "knew what he was getting into" thing is...yeah, shocking in how absolutely devoid of empathy he is, but it's not surprising.


The doubling down and calling the Congresswoman (and by extension the mother and wife) a liar is..again shocking and disgraceful, but not surprising. Kelly's words more or less admit even from the WH side that it did happen; he was trying to explain why it happened, not argue whether it happened at all.

At this stage, trying to pass it off as Trumpian clumsiness but ultimately meaning well is a hell of a better tactic than denying it happened at all. That's not all that feasible, else Kelly would have had no reason for explaining rather than denying, and that's even if one automatically assumes that the mother and wife of Sgt Johnson were lying and making political hay (for Reasons) out of his death, which, by the way, is a hugely insulting and cruel characterization of them, but a necessary position to take if one is claiming it never happened and Trump's words are absolute truth.

aloyisious

Inquitus wrote: »

Seems Kelly lied about the congresswoman, she wasn't even elected when funding was secured for the building and never mentioned it in her speech, a video of which has turned up.

https://shareblue.com/video-proves-john-kelly-lied-about-gold-star-widows-congresswoman-to-cover-for-trump/

Just seen it mentioned on a F/B page. Seems Sarah H told off a reporter at a W/H briefing about questioning Gen Kelly's statement, saying if you want to take on a 4 Star General, etc........

Leroy42

aloyisious wrote: »

Inquitus wrote: »

Seems Kelly lied about the congresswoman, she wasn't even elected when funding was secured for the building and never mentioned it in her speech, a video of which has turned up.

https://shareblue.com/video-proves-john-kelly-lied-about-gold-star-widows-congresswoman-to-cover-for-trump/

Just seen it mentioned on a F/B page. Seems Sarah H told off a reporter at a W/H briefing about questioning Gen Kelly's statement, saying if you want to take on a 4 Star General, etc........

The reporter should just have retorted that 4 star general or not, he knew what he signed up for!

StringerBell

Inquitus wrote: »

Kelly sent out to take the flak for Trump's words to the fallen again today, seems he gave Trump the words to use. Sad to see him reduced to this.

Where has this notion that General Kelly is/was a great man or a bastion of all that is good/right come from? A cursory glance at his past doesn't paint that picture like.

circadian

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/10/20/presidential-executive-order-amending-executive-order-13223

The Secretary of Defence can recall all retired military personnel much easier than before.

Apparently 1000 retired USAF are being recalled.

Kermit.de.frog

I thought Saturday Night Live did a great job on Kellyanne Conway last week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlt3rA-oDao

How she still gets air time is beyond me.

aloyisious

It seems Don is misusing info from the UK again. Theresa May is probably face-palming right now.

Independent.ie Newsdesk
October 20 2017 3:26 PM

Donald Trump has been accused of ignorance after controversially linking an increase in recorded crime with the "spread of radical Islamic terror" in the UK.
Official figures, published on Thursday, show police forces in England and Wales had registered a total of 5.2 million offences in the year to June - a 13% rise on the previous 12 months. The data release prompted the US President to tweet: Donald J. Trump‏
Verified account
 
@realDonaldTrump
Follow
Follow @realDonaldTrump

Just out report: "United Kingdom crime rises 13% annually amid spread of Radical Islamic terror." Not good, we must keep America safe!
3:31 AM - 20 Oct 2017

Christy42

aloyisious wrote: »

It seems Don is misusing info from the UK again. Theresa May is probably face-palming right now.

Independent.ie Newsdesk
October 20 2017 3:26 PM

Donald Trump has been accused of ignorance after controversially linking an increase in recorded crime with the "spread of radical Islamic terror" in the UK.
Official figures, published on Thursday, show police forces in England and Wales had registered a total of 5.2 million offences in the year to June - a 13% rise on the previous 12 months. The data release prompted the US President to tweet: Donald J. Trump‏
Verified account
 
@realDonaldTrump
Follow
Follow @realDonaldTrump

Just out report: "United Kingdom crime rises 13% annually amid spread of Radical Islamic terror." Not good, we must keep America safe!
3:31 AM - 20 Oct 2017

Trump knows what he is doing here. The facts don't matter. All that matters pumping up hatred and that is what this tweet is designed for.

MadYaker

For some reason it seems a lot of his supporters are very fond of the illusion that muslims are somehow taking over europe and that many cities all over europe have areas known as no go zones where sharia law is in effect and it is totally unsafe for non muslims or whites to be in these areas. They believe this to be the case in many cities such as London, Paris, Berlin and various other cities in Scandanavia. I'm guessing it's something they drum up to justify their islamaphobia. I've seen examples of this nonsense many times on facebook, twitter, reddit, 4chan etc.....

The internet is a strange beast. A lot of people, myself included, thought it would usher in a new era of enlightenment with information on pretty much anything being so easily accessible and making it simple for people from all different backgrounds all over the world to communicate but it's done the opposite. People have instead used it to bunch together with like minded individuals who share the same prejudices, block out any dessenting voices and create these echo chambers where nobody chalenges the trend of the group and they all reinforce each other biases. Facts have become largely meaningless to a large proportion of voters all over the world, how do you combat that?

Leroy42

So now Ex General Kelly has been proven to be a liar, the same as Trump, SHS, Spicer.

But because he used to work in the military people are just supposed to believe that he said? No doubt he has sincere feelings about the soldiers, and no doubt he feels sad that it has become political, but he could have refused to enter the debate. Instead he chose to give Trump his backing. Not only that he decided that it was also worth it to destroy his own credibility by lying and calling out a serving congress woman.

I watch the press conference that SHS gave yesterday. She normally is quite dismissive of the press but yesterday she was angry. Why is she not coming under the same level of scrutiny that Spicer did. In my mind she is far worse that Spicer ever was.

And the passive threat "to take on a 4 star general if you want to". Ex General. He is a COS now. And not only has he retired from the military he seems to have decided that the oath to protect America is not as important as the oath to protect Trump.

Trump yesterday claimed that Wilson was 'Whacky'! Seriously. This is a current member of the congress, which under the US constitution carries the same weight as the POTUS, and he thinks it appropriate to call her names. And why is she whacky? Is it the cowboy hat? The clothes, the colour of her skin, her gender? Of course he didn't expand.

Kelly wiped out whatever credibility he did have in the press room. And to limit questions from reporters that had connections to gold star families only? On what basis? He is happy to serve under a CIC with no military experience, but who actively avoided serving. Yet he thinks professional journalists cannot ask questions about military matters?

What US has now is a POTUS who is totally unsuitable for the job, both in temperament and ability, a press office that is happy to lie, blatantly, and threaten the press at every opportunity and now a COS who was supposed to be the last bullwark against Trumps excessives, clearly happy to play along.

The sad bit is that SHS, Kelly etc are on a losing wicket no matter what. Once they use up any credibility they had, once they are no longer seen as useful, as was the case with Spicer, Trump will get rid of them and get someone else in to start again. And they will be left with their credibility in tatters. They are sacrificing themselves for a man that will drop them as needs be.

derb12

Kelly seems to me to be a very stubborn head-in-the-sand type of guy, who supported Trump as being the best hope for a conservative agenda and now cannot bring himself to admit that he got it wrong.
His statements from the other day were bizarre. He actually stated that "women used to be sacred" but in light of recent events (presumably weinstein) that isn't the case any more. Is he seriously suggesting that there was less pressure on aspiring actresses from powerful movie execs back in the 50s and 60s? And does he see no contradiction between his statements and those of his boss on that coach that came into the public domain a year ago?

Trump brought all this trouble on himself by first not paying any tribute to the slain soldiers for 12 days. I guess the story ran counter to his whole "we're whupping ISIS's ass" narrative, so he hoped nobody would notice it if he didn't draw attention to it - so much for his "I have great judgement" claim. And now, given that Trump's eventual (no doubt well intentioned) call to the widow didn't go down well, he is making things worse by tweeting about Wilson's wackiness when the story would have just died out on its own. I also happen to think that that congresswoman was wrong to talk about a private call in public.

MadYaker

She was wrong to talk about it and i thought the transcript of the call got released and also proved her wrong in what she said?

JohnFalstaff

All of the controversy over Trump's remarks are threatening to overshadow the events surrounding how the soldiers actually died in the Niger.

There are some serious questions to answer about the military failures that saw the troops being sent into an ambush, and the failure to provide them with adequate support. It's being reported that LaDavid Johnson, the soldier at the heart of this story, was left behind by the recovery operation. Comparisons are already being made to Benghazi.

Tony EH

StringerBell wrote: »

Where has this notion that General Kelly is/was a great man or a bastion of all that is good/right come from? A cursory glance at his past doesn't paint that picture like.

Agreed. This "Kelly the hero" thing is weird.