Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

As usual, with these stories, the first part is flat denial (in this case this has happened previously from all concerned).

Once the story appears we get a, "Oh, we simply forgot about that one, but nothing happened and nothing was discussed".

This is then usually followed up a little later by "well it did happen, but no exactly as was described"

Then we move into "Yeah, but HC and fake news" and then finally into "Donald knew nothing about this and is too busy MAGA to get involved in the witchhunt".

Let it die down and then repeat again a few weeks later.

This one is a little different as in first public direct evidence of collusion between Trump inner circle and Kremlin. This following a day after Trump's effort to operationalize ongoing collusion via the 'Fox in charge of the chicken coup' Russia-US cyber co-operation group.

Billy86

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This is just what the press know - what will Mueller and his team find? When 5 White House advisers will push Donald Jr under the bus and drive it over him just to spin the story in the press, what will they do to stay out of jail?

This is probably one of the reasons Mueller has apparently not hired too much in the way of investigators to dig up information and has been more focused on hiring prosecutors to act on the plethora of it already there (even publicly, never mind what else they might have in private/unreleased info).

Leroy42

demfad wrote: »

This one is a little different as in first public direct evidence of collusion between Trump inner circle and Kremlin. This following a day after Trump's effort to operationalize ongoing collusion via the 'Fox in charge of the chicken coup' Russia-US cyber co-operation group.

Normally I would agree with you but the rules don't seem to apply to Donald.

And it doesn't prove anything. I by prove I mean in terms of the WH and his supporters and the GOP.

Did Kushner attempting to set up back channels prove anything? Imagine if HC or Obama had done the same. I mean, the DNC is getting lambasted for rigging their own elections, never mind rigging the US elections with the help of Russia.

Trump assocs will simply deny anything was actually discussed, even coming out with the whole adoption nonsense today. They are already trying to paint this as a nothing meeting. I didn't know who it was, what it was about, so I invited two other senior people in Trump tower just in case!

Keith Olbermann tweeted today that it was around the time of this meeting that trump started to tweet about the missing 33,000 HC e-mail's.

Another coincidence? But enough to change anything?

Billy86

Leroy42 wrote: »

Keith Olbermann tweeted today that it was around the time of this meeting that trump started to tweet about the missing 33,000 HC e-mail's.

Another coincidence? But enough to chance anything?

Actually it was the exact same day...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/741007091947556864

Just to repeat, June 9th 2016 was the same day Trump Jr, Kushner and Trump's campaign manager Paul Manafort met with the Kremlin connection Russian lawyer to seek out damaging information on his election rival while discussing adoption programs and sanctions. I forgot to mention last night that this meeting occurred in Trump Tower.

And that same day, RNC Chair at the time/WH Chief of Staff today Reince Priebus was also at Trump Tower to meet with Trump and donors where he bragged about 'needing less money than you would think' to win the election.

DaniilKharms

None of it will matter.

Even if it turns out there's video of Trump agreeing to collude, to better himself, at the cost of America, the media on the right and Trump's base will call it fake news.

America is broken, and it's hard to see how it can be fixed, as the issues are entrenched, and would require a generational approach to be properly fixed.

Sure, most Americans are wildly clueless about their own country's foreign policy, have decided to cede their moral authority to self-interested political parties, and are much more interested in staying in their silo than in any sort of non-partisan truth. Why would anyone be surprised that not only has that given us a Trump, but that a huge chunk of Americans support him?

derb12

Leroy42 wrote: »

I reckon Trump Jr is the weak link.

Everytime he opens his mouth he seems to cause more trouble.

I couldn't agree more!
I suspect that he thought he would "cleverly" turn this narrative around - making out that the Russian lawyer had info about collusion between HRC's campaign and the Kremlin. Not realising that you're not supposed to get your opposition research from a foreign hostile power!

Ipse dixit

DaniilKharms wrote: »

None of it will matter.

Even if it turns out there's video of Trump agreeing to collude, to better himself, at the cost of America, the media on the right and Trump's base will call it fake news.

America is broken, and it's hard to see how it can be fixed, as the issues are entrenched, and would require a generational approach to be properly fixed.

Sure, most Americans are wildly clueless about their own country's foreign policy, have decided to cede their moral authority to self-interested political parties, and are much more interested in staying in their silo than in any sort of non-partisan truth. Why would anyone be surprised that not only has that given us a Trump, but that a huge chunk of Americans support him?

The amazing part is that you have people on this very board cheerleading this embarrassing partisan game of cat and mouse.

The idiots and sheep will blame Trump for all of the world's ills when he is a symptom of a broken system.

DaniilKharms

Ipse dixit wrote: »

The amazing part is that you have people on this very board cheerleading this embarrassing partisan game of cat and mouse.

The idiots and sheep will blame Trump for all of the world's ills when he is a symptom of a broken system.

100%

Trump - as abysmal as he is - is not the problem.

He represents realities that few wish to address, and worse still, which no one in the mainstream of American media or politics will dare to acknowledge.

And frankly, there's no coming back from this... It's only going to get much worse.

Leroy42

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Ipse dixit wrote: »

The amazing part is that you have people on this very board cheerleading this embarrassing partisan game of cat and mouse.

The idiots and sheep will blame Trump for all of the world's ills when he is a symptom of a broken system.

100%

Trump - as abysmal as he is - is not the problem.

He represents realities that few wish to address, and worse still, which no one in the mainstream of American media or politics will dare to acknowledge.

And frankly, there's no coming back from this... It's only going to get much worse.

So what, Trump is just a patsy? Stuck in the WH against his will, forced to disregard all previous ethics standards due to the system?

Forced to bring his family into the WH roles and to use his position to further his own brand and enhance his own families business interests?

Has his arm twisted to undertake a campaign to demolish the standing of the press? Merely a passenger forced, one can only assume under massive duress, to put in jeopardy long standing international alliance's.

I suppose Flynn was merely a casualty of this conspiracy!

Trump may not be the root cause of the problems facing USA, but he has gladly filled his boots by taking maximum advantage and has done nothing to alliviate the problems

DaniilKharms

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what, Trump is just a patsy? Stuck in the WH against his will, forced to disregard all previous ethics standards due to the system?

Forced to bring his family into the WH roles and to use his position to further his own brand and enhance his own families business interests?

Has his arm twisted to undertake a campaign to demolish the standing of the press? Merely a passenger forced, one can only assume under massive duress, to put in jeopardy long standing international alliance's.

I suppose Flynn was merely a casualty of this conspiracy!

Trump may not be the root cause of the problems facing USA, but he has gladly filled his boots by taking maximum advantage and has done nothing to alliviate the problems

I don't think I said anything about him being forced to do anything, or him being a patsy?

I'm not sure why you'd put those words in my mouth? I certainly don't believe them.

Maybe re-read what I said and try again?

Really Interested

It's funny how trumpeters come in to forum fresh just after the last group flounce off!!!

Professor Moriarty

Ipse dixit wrote: »

The amazing part is that you have people on this very board cheerleading this embarrassing partisan game of cat and mouse.

The idiots and sheep will blame Trump for all of the world's ills when he is a symptom of a broken system.

It's three factors. What he represents i.e. racism, isolationism, nationalism etc. Who he represents i.e. Bannon, Pruitt, DeVos etc. And the fact that he himself is abhorrent.

Billy86

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's three factors. What he represents i.e. racism, isolationism, nationalism etc. Who he represents i.e. Bannon, Pruitt, DeVos etc. And the fact that he himself is abhorrent.

Plus like them, loathe them or otherwise, I don't remember Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush Snr, Reagan, Carter and so on and so on likely colluding with foreign governments hostile to the United States in order to help their election chances. Treason is kind of a big deal.

Professor Moriarty

Billy86 wrote: »

Plus like them, loathe them or otherwise, I don't remember Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush Snr, Reagan, Carter and so on and so on likely colluding with foreign governments hostile to the United States in order to help their election chances. Treason is kind of a big deal.

Absolutely. Trump's big mistake was to take a dump on the media as soon as he became POTUS. Taking a subsequent dump on the intel services means that the media is now being drip fed from a very large pot.

aloyisious

DaniilKharms wrote: »

100%

Trump - as abysmal as he is - is not the problem.

He represents realities that few wish to address, and worse still, which no one in the mainstream of American media or politics will dare to acknowledge.

And frankly, there's no coming back from this... It's only going to get much worse.

That's very negative reading. What do you suggest the mainstream do about Don to get things better?

Leroy42

DaniilKharms wrote: »

I don't think I said anything about him being forced to do anything, or him being a patsy?

I'm not sure why you'd put those words in my mouth? I certainly don't believe them.

Maybe re-read what I said and try again?

You said he wasn't the problem, so saying that he is merely a symptom.

Whilst I agree that he didn't cause the problem, he is very much the head of the problem now. He has gladly accepted that role and appears to revel in it.

There were of course divisions and the formulation of these issues under the previous POTUS, but he has given it legitimacy and given those that harboured certain feelings to think it not only ok but justified to express those.

Trump is the problem. Not the only one, granted, but USA has no hope as long as he continues as he is currently doing

Gbear

Leroy42 wrote: »

You said he wasn't the problem, so saying that he is merely a symptom.

Whilst I agree that he didn't cause the problem, he is very much the head of the problem now. He has gladly accepted that role and appears to revel in it.

There were of course divisions and the formulation of these issues under the previous POTUS, but he has given it legitimacy and given those that harboured certain feelings to think it not only ok but justified to express those.

Trump is the problem. Not the only one, granted, but USA has no hope as long as he continues as he is currently doing

Trump failing deligitimises the sort of anti-intellectual, post-truth, extreme propagandist politics that's rotted the discouse in the US, but, of course, at best it's a minor success if his replacement is just another Democrat drone and not someone who actually walks the anti-corruption walk.

aloyisious

Gbear wrote: »

Trump failing deligitimises the sort of anti-intellectual, post-truth, extreme propagandist politics that's rotted the discouse in the US, but, of course, at best it's a minor success if his replacement is just another Democrat drone and not someone who actually walks the anti-corruption walk.

A rare beast in politics anywhere, let alone the US.

DaniilKharms

aloyisious wrote: »

That's very negative reading. What do you suggest the mainstream do about Don to get things better?

Well, there's not a lot that can be done in the short term. You might as well ask how we can get Santa to eat less. In other words, 10s of millions of Americans are ill-informed, often by choice, and are living in a fantasy. Schools are often pushing propaganda, deliberately, as is the media.

So, the only recourse to Trump is either violence, not a smart choice as it would simply lead to much more violence and doesn't address the causes of Trump... Or multi-generational fixes from the individual to national level.

And that's not gonna happen.

A simple example is something like this:

http://www.newsweek.com/revised-ap-history-standards-will-emphasize-american-exceptionalism-358210

People are fighting to indoctrinate kids. That indoctrination - and that's just about one topic - has been going on for decades.

There's no quick fix, and the long term fix will never happen because even education and basic facts have been politicized to the point that what you believe about your country's own history is arbitrary and non-factual, or it can be if youre one of millions that live in states that practice this sort of propagandising history, science, etc.

So this is only going one direction, and will end badly.

DaniilKharms

Leroy42 wrote: »

You said he wasn't the problem, so saying that he is merely a symptom.

Whilst I agree that he didn't cause the problem, he is very much the head of the problem now. He has gladly accepted that role and appears to revel in it.

There were of course divisions and the formulation of these issues under the previous POTUS, but he has given it legitimacy and given those that harboured certain feelings to think it not only ok but justified to express those.

Trump is the problem. Not the only one, granted, but USA has no hope as long as he continues as he is currently doing

Trump is not the problem.

Millions and millions voted for him, didn't they? Trump didn't elect himself.

Millions are so hyperpartisan that they can't have any sort of meaningful conversation about even simple issues, which allows people like Trump to simply lie with no consequence. If that wasn't the case there'd be no Trump.

Millions find themselves in economic straits not caused by Trump... He'd not be elected if that wasn't true.

Etc. Etc.

So much has to be wrong for Trump to be elected, and Trump is responsible for none of it. So there's obviously and clearly no way that he is the root of the problem.

Does he exploit these issues?

Yes.

Do politicians from BOTH parties? Yep.

It matters much less who is the figurehead of the problem, than the root of the problem. Why?

Because unless the underlying issues are addressed Trump won't be the last person to exploit these issues like this, but if anything will be the first to do it as brazenly... A sort of harbinger of the even worse..

And considering how compromised and uninspiring Democrats are the alternative is hardly good. It's simply slightly less awful.

Itssoeasy

I see the WH is claiming that Donald trump didn't know that his son, son in law(and the guy single handedly solving all the worlds problems), and soon to be campaign manager meet with a Russian lawyer in trump tower ? I don't buy that for a second.

Also a spokesperson for VP pence didn't know about the meeting. It seems mike pence isn't in the loop on lots of things happening that he should know about.

Water John

Manafort was Campaign Manager, at the time, so this was a heavyweight delegation. Going to meet somebody, whose name they did not even know!!

DaniilKharms

Water John wrote: »

Manafort was Campaign Manager, at the time, so this was a heavyweight delegation. Going to meet somebody, whose name they did not even know!!

Sure, but nothing will come of it... and even if it does 30-40% of Americans will still support Trump.

Billy86

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Sure, but nothing will come of it... and even if it does 30-40% of Americans will still support Trump.

It's not really even relevant if nothing or anything came of it, they met with someone who has frequently acted on behalf of and has many ties to the Kremlin (including her husband being in Russian government) to talk about sanctions and ask about damaging info to a rival candidate - that's collusion.

secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy in order to deceive others.
"the armed forces were working in collusion with drug traffickers"

I think the following quote sums up the 'nothing came of it' defense that Trump Jr is trying: I am presently incarcerated, imprisoned for a crime I did not even commit. "Attempted murder," now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for "attempted chemistry?" - Sideshow Bob

And at the end of the day, the support Trump does or does not have (and mid-30s positive vs mid-50s negative is not good support) is not going to save him or those around him from criminal investigations; the public don't get to vote on the outcome there.

Water John

There is a tipping point. Trump certainly did not help himself with Republicans, with his nonsense of cooperating with Russia on cyber security.

Even the Fox is fleeing the coup.

BabyCheeses

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I see the WH is claiming that Donald trump didn't know that his son, son in law(and the guy single handedly solving all the worlds problems), and soon to be campaign manager meet with a Russian lawyer in trump tower ? I don't buy that for a second.

Also a spokesperson for VP pence didn't know about the meeting. It seems mike pence isn't in the loop on lots of things happening that he should know about.

It looks like Trump didn't know much during the campaign, everyone else was working right under his nose and he had no idea? He must be quite incompetent.

recedite

Billy86 wrote: »

It's not really even relevant if nothing or anything came of it, they met with someone who has frequently acted on behalf of and has many ties to the Kremlin (including her husband being in Russian government) to talk about sanctions and ask about damaging info to a rival candidate - that's collusion.

secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy in order to deceive others.
"the armed forces were working in collusion with drug traffickers"

I think in "collusion" the two parties are supposed to be enemies, but instead they secretly co-operate.
In the case of Trump, he often said during the campaign that he had never met Putin, but he hoped they would "get along". He said stuff like this so many times that his lack of russophobia encouraged CNN and others to start this whole witch hunt.

At the end of the day though, if Putin preferred him to Clinton for being the least russophobic candidate, its not surprising that Putin would throw him a bone. And its not surprising that Trump junior would jump up to catch any bone that was being thrown to him during an election campaign.

And there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it "collusion" in any meaningful sense of the word.

Billy86

recedite wrote: »

I think in "collusion" the two parties are supposed to be enemies, but instead they secretly co-operate.

In the case of Trump, he often said during the campaign that he had never met Putin, but he hoped they would "get along". He said stuff like this so many times that his lack of russophobia encouraged CNN and others to start this whole witch hunt.

At the end of the day though, if Putin preferred him to Clinton for being the least russophobic candidate, its not surprising that Putin would throw him a bone. And its not surprising that Trump junior would jump up to catch any bone that was being thrown to him during an election campaign.

And there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it "collusion" in any meaningful sense of the word.

Collusion: An agreement between two or more people to defraud a person of his or her rights or to obtain something that is prohibited by law.

Hacking into a government is prohibited by law, as is information obtained in doing so.

Discussing sanctions while not in government is also prohibited by law, and is why Michael Flynn got the boot.

It is an extremely cut and dry case of collusion.

Logan Act
§ 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply himself, or his agent, to any foreign government, or the agents thereof, for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.

1 Stat. 613, January 30, 1799, codified at 18 U.S.C. § 953 (2004).

Billy86

And lo and behold Trump Jr has gone and lawyered up - http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/341325-trump-jr-hires-lawyer-for-russia-probes

Donald Trump Jr., the president's eldest son, has reportedly hired a lawyer to represent him as the Justice Department's special counsel conducts its probe into Russia's election meddling and potential ties between Trump campaign staff and the Kremlin.

Reuters reported on Monday that Trump Jr. has hired Alan Futerfas as his attorney.

The hiring comes after two reports emerged from The New York Times over the weekend about Trump Jr.'s meeting with a Russian lawyer who allegedly promised him damaging information on then-Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.

Which is to be expected given what he said the last few days, but begs the question... did he give those answers over the weekend, first talking about discussing adoption and sanctions, and then about how he was looking to get information off of them on Clinton in the same meeting, and that Kushner and Manafort were both there too, without actually consulting a lawyer!? :eek:

aloyisious

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Well, there's not a lot that can be done in the short term. You might as well ask how we can get Santa to eat less. In other words, 10s of millions of Americans are ill-informed, often by choice, and are living in a fantasy. Schools are often pushing propaganda, deliberately, as is the media.

So, the only recourse to Trump is either violence, not a smart choice as it would simply lead to much more violence and doesn't address the causes of Trump... Or multi-generational fixes from the individual to national level.

And that's not gonna happen.

A simple example is something like this:

http://www.newsweek.com/revised-ap-history-standards-will-emphasize-american-exceptionalism-358210

People are fighting to indoctrinate kids. That indoctrination - and that's just about one topic - has been going on for decades.

There's no quick fix, and the long term fix will never happen because even education and basic facts have been politicized to the point that what you believe about your country's own history is arbitrary and non-factual, or it can be if youre one of millions that live in states that practice this sort of propagandising history, science, etc.

So this is only going one direction, and will end badly.

Civil War? Best for the US to take the easier option: get the GOP to exile Don to Russia. Extraordinary rendition is so handy and some US agencies are practiced in it, would probably like taking a swing at him after the way he treated them

aloyisious

BabyCheeses wrote: »

It looks like Trump didn't know much during the campaign, everyone else was working right under his nose and he had no idea? He must be quite incompetent.

Naw, he was so busy watching the late news, tweeting and golfing to see what was happening.:D

aloyisious

recedite wrote: »

I think in "collusion" the two parties are supposed to be enemies, but instead they secretly co-operate.
In the case of Trump, he often said during the campaign that he had never met Putin, but he hoped they would "get along". He said stuff like this so many times that his lack of russophobia encouraged CNN and others to start this whole witch hunt.

At the end of the day though, if Putin preferred him to Clinton for being the least russophobic candidate, its not surprising that Putin would throw him a bone. And its not surprising that Trump junior would jump up to catch any bone that was being thrown to him during an election campaign.

And there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it "collusion" in any meaningful sense of the word.

Well, that's one way to describe recent US history but I know you're erudite

DaniilKharms

recedite wrote: »

I think in "collusion" the two parties are supposed to be enemies, but instead they secretly co-operate.
In the case of Trump, he often said during the campaign that he had never met Putin, but he hoped they would "get along". He said stuff like this so many times that his lack of russophobia encouraged CNN and others to start this whole witch hunt.

At the end of the day though, if Putin preferred him to Clinton for being the least russophobic candidate, its not surprising that Putin would throw him a bone. And its not surprising that Trump junior would jump up to catch any bone that was being thrown to him during an election campaign.

And there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it "collusion" in any meaningful sense of the word.

Of course there's something wrong with it.

First, it's against the law for a campaign to coordinate with non-nationals.

Second, the reason it's illegal is that it means that potentially a President has made an arrangement with a foreign power, for political reasons.

Also, it's not about being Russophobic, but about Russia illegally interfering with other countries electoral process. And while the irony of the US whining about other country's sovereignty is pretty extreme, it doesn't actually justify what Russia has and will do.

And collusion, it's not about enemies, no idea why you think that. If Trump had worked with UK backed hackers that would be collusion.

Finally, Trump has claimed he met Putin and that he's not met Putin. It's one of his multitude of lies.

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/03/politics/trump-putin-russia-timeline/

Note that he also praised Putin's invasion of Crimea.

DaniilKharms

aloyisious wrote: »

Civil War? Best for the US to take the easier option: get the GOP to exile Don to Russia. Extraordinary rendition is so handy and some US agencies are practiced in it, would probably like taking a swing at him after the way he treated them

Not civil war. The US government has the military might to prevent that from happening.

Palmy

So what became of the meeting? Did they change votes within States? Both sides were trying to dig up dirt on each other. It's time to get over this crap and move on. The only reason Obama didn't do anything about the supposed collusion with the Russians is they thought it would work in favour of Hillary. There is more pressing things to get on with regarding health care and tax reform.CNN are still spouting on about it hour after hour.

DaniilKharms

Palmy wrote: »

So what became of the meeting? Did they change votes within States? Both sides were trying to dig up dirt on each other. It's time to get over this crap and move on. The only reason Obama didn't do anything about the supposed collusion with the Russians is they thought it would work in favour of Hillary. There is more pressing things to get on with regarding health care and tax reform.CNN are still spouting on about it hour after hour.

Move on? The Russian government will do this again in 2018, 2020, etc.

And Healthcare lol. The GOP plan is less popular than being kicked in the genitals. Plus they control all of the government and still get nothing done. Blaming anyone but the GOP is a joke.

Christy42

Well we are past the point of saying attempted collusion did not happen at least.

Months of the witch hunt and fake news have disappeared into well it isn't important anyway.

So for months the defense has been hiding things relevant to the investigation but in spite of being important enough to hide it is not important enough to pay attention to once it came to light.

ancapailldorcha

aloyisious wrote: »

Naw, he was so busy watching the late news, tweeting and golfing to see what was happening.:D

aloyisious wrote: »

Well, that's one way to describe recent US history but I know you're erudite

Stop posting nonsense please.

Christy42

One amusing point is that Trump Jr is claiming that the potential information that got him to try and collude with the Russians was the claim that Hillary was colluding with the Russians.

Now as has been pointed out it was just a pretext for the meeting and untrue but I like that is what drew him in.

Leroy42

Palmy wrote: »

So what became of the meeting? Did they change votes within States? Both sides were trying to dig up dirt on each other. It's time to get over this crap and move on. The only reason Obama didn't do anything about the supposed collusion with the Russians is they thought it would work in favour of Hillary. There is more pressing things to get on with regarding health care and tax reform.CNN are still spouting on about it hour after hour.

Doesn't matter what came out of the meeting, the holding of the meeting itself is enough.

Trump Jr has admitted that the meeting took place. He has admitted that it was on the pretext that the Russian had information on DNC and HC.

The only way a Russian could have obtained said information was through espionage (hacking, survellience etc) For Trump Jr has already admitted to trying to obtain information from a foreign power. That is the problem.

That the intel proved less than useful (although since Trump Snr started tweeting about HC missing 33,000 e-mails that very evening after the meeting it is hard not to conclude that something was discussed) is irrelevant.

His claim that he didn't know how they would have got the intel is also no basis for a defence. It is akin to claiming you didn't know the TV you bought from the guy in the carpark was stolen.

Trump Jr is in serious bother on this. And they could probably jettison him if need be if only for the fact that both Kushner and Manafort were also there. Manafort was, at the time, the campaign manager, so one can only conclude that this was an avenue that the campaign was actively looking to pursue. Kushner originally ommitted this meeting from his form, but now is tied to two meetings with Russians.

Notice that Trump has not come out all guns blazing on this (although he will I suspect). The initial response was to claim that they only learned of this meeting a few days ago. Classic buying time line because even they know how tricky this one is.

So for all the claims of the Russian thing being a witchhunt etc it turns out that CNN, failing NYT and WP were all correct. There was, at the very least, attempted use of foreign agents to help their campaign. This has been accepted by Trump Jr. The argument has already moved on from did it happen to how much.

Professor Moriarty

Christy42 wrote: »

One amusing point is that Trump Jr is claiming that the potential information that got him to try and collude with the Russians was the claim that Hillary was colluding with the Russians.

Now as has been pointed out it was just a pretext for the meeting and untrue but I like that is what drew him in.

Well there appears to be proof that Trump & Son are lying. From the article:

"Before arranging a meeting with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer he believed would offer him compromising information about Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email."

seamus

Palmy wrote: »

So what became of the meeting? Did they change votes within States? Both sides were trying to dig up dirt on each other. It's time to get over this crap and move on. The only reason Obama didn't do anything about the supposed collusion with the Russians is they thought it would work in favour of Hillary. There is more pressing things to get on with regarding health care and tax reform.CNN are still spouting on about it hour after hour.

I think one of the more interesting aspects of this farce are posts like the above, on an Irish forum, where you have someone trying to say, "Nothing to see here, show's over folks, more important things to worry about".

When the Republicans finally go to ditch Trump, how will they deal with people like the above, so deeply entrenched in their support for Trump that they can't see the wood for the trees?

This could potentially result in a major fracture in the Republican party. This would cause panic in the Republicans who would demand electoral reform - having two republican parties would guarantee a democratic president.

Which in the long run, would result in a much better system in the US.

Zubeneschamali

Christy42 wrote: »

One amusing point is that Trump Jr is claiming that the potential information that got him to try and collude with the Russians was the claim that Hillary was colluding with the Russians.

Accuse them of doing what you're doing, so that if it all comes out, "both sides did it".

Zubeneschamali

Christy42 wrote: »

Months of the witch hunt and fake news have disappeared into well it isn't important anyway.

When Hannity on Fox shifted to saying "Is collusion even a crime?" it was a sign that Fox knew there was proof of collusion. That was on June 23rd.

Billy86

Looks like the NYT are continuing the drip feed...

Trump Jr. Was Told in Email of Russian Effort to Aid Campaign

WASHINGTON — Before arranging a meeting with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer he believed would offer him compromising information about Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email.

The email to the younger Mr. Trump was sent by Rob Goldstone, a publicist and former British tabloid reporter who helped broker the June 2016 meeting. In a statement on Sunday, Mr. Trump acknowledged that he was interested in receiving damaging information about Mrs. Clinton, but gave no indication that he thought the lawyer might have been a Kremlin proxy.

Mr. Goldstone’s message, as described to The New York Times by the three people, indicates that the Russian government was the source of the potentially damaging information. It does not elaborate on the wider effort by Moscow to help the Trump campaign.

Kushner and Manafort's legal representatives are still declining to give any further comment on the matter. Looks like we might have another email scandal!

And a little background into Rob Goldstone and his relationship with both Russia and the Trump family...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/11/rob-goldstone-trump-jr-meeting-russian-lawyer

Goldstone, a British music publicist and former tabloid journalist, told the Associated Press he had set up the meeting – in which Trump Jr met Natalia Veselnitskaya, along with Paul Manafort, the campaign’s chairman at the time, and Donald Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, at Trump Tower in June 2016 – on behalf of a client in Moscow named Emin Agalarov, the son of a Moscow-based developer who tried to partner with Trump in a hotel project.

The music publicist has for several years shuttled between the US and Russia while representing Agalarov. According to his Instagram account, Goldstone has made at least 19 visits to Russia since the spring of 2013. In one post he described Moscow as his second home.

He has also made at least eight trips to Baku, the capital of the former Soviet state Azerbaijan, where his client Agalarov was born and retains a large fan base.

Donald Trump appeared in a music video with Agalarov in 2013 that featured several Miss Universe contestants, a pageant he owned at that time. In November that year, Trump tweeted to Agalarov: “I had a great weekend with you and your family. You have done a FANTASTIC job. TRUMP TOWER-MOSCOW is next. EMIN was WOW!”

Goldstone’s posts indicate that he was in Moscow 10 days before the 9 June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower, and then returned to spend most of that July in Russia and Azerbaijan. When Trump announced his campaign for the US presidency in June 2015, Goldstone claimed to have already been briefed on Trump’s intentions during a meeting he and Agalarov enjoyed at Trump Tower the previous month, writing: “He talked about his planned run for President of the USA – which became official today!”

Goldstone initially acknowledged the email but claimed it was not related to the Russian government which would be strange considering Veselnitskaya's close, close ties with the Kremlin. The NYT later gained further information on the email... and Goldstone has since declined to comment.





Surely Vikileaks will get right on this, pronto! :pac: :pac:

Leroy42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

When Hannity on Fox shifted to saying "Is collusion even a crime?" it was a sign that Fox knew there was proof of collusion. That was on June 23rd.

Very much so. Its been the same in all cases. Trump not divesting his business's - Well is it really a problem?

Ivanka working in the WH - Well she's not paid so not technically nepotism

Only a few weeks ag the line was that the whole Russia thing was a idea dreamt up by the DNC to try to cover their loss and the fact they had nothing else to offer.

Now its, sure they might have been contact but nothing was used and was it a crime really?

This from the party that said that Obama was too soft on Russia. Whose candidate in 2012 said Russia was USA biggest threat. Now we have POTUS saying its an honour to meet Putin, seemingly expects no guarantees that election interferring won't happen in the future and has proposed no consequences to the attempted influence in the last election.

He was shown up by the release of that pic of Ivanka by the Russians. They don't respect Trump either. His fawning at Putins feet has once again elevated Putin to the position of global leader.

USA, the biggest, strongest, greatest nation on earth, is looking to Russia to help it out. Only 10 years or so ago, Russia was seen as a busted flush. The cold war had been won, Russia was no longer the equal of the US on the world stage. Well all that has changed.

For sure you can point to Obama and say that a lot of that happened under his watch, but Trump is not only doing nothing to rebalance it but is actively handing Russia all that it wants.

Zubeneschamali

seamus wrote: »

This could potentially result in a major fracture in the Republican party..

No, they will just shift to "He wasn't a real republican anyway", bring up his D past, his friends the Clintons, show all the Tweets where he contradicted Republican policy and say how they voted for Cruz in the primaries.

Palmy

seamus wrote: »

Palmy wrote: »

So what became of the meeting? Did they change votes within States? Both sides were trying to dig up dirt on each other. It's time to get over this crap and move on. The only reason Obama didn't do anything about the supposed collusion with the Russians is they thought it would work in favour of Hillary. There is more pressing things to get on with regarding health care and tax reform.CNN are still spouting on about it hour after hour.

I think one of the more interesting aspects of this farce are posts like the above, on an Irish forum, where you have someone trying to say, "Nothing to see here, show's over folks, more important things to worry about".

When the Republicans finally go to ditch Trump, how will they deal with people like the above, so deeply entrenched in their support for Trump that they can't see the wood for the trees?

This could potentially result in a major fracture in the Republican party. This would cause panic in the Republicans who would demand electoral reform - having two republican parties would guarantee a democratic president.

Which in the long run, would result in a much better system in the US.

No but what I do find amusing though is how you know everything being Irish and on an Irish Forum. Oh and by the way I am Irish and live in the States.

demfad

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, they will just shift to "He wasn't a real republican anyway", bring up his D past, his friends the Clintons, show all the Tweets where he contradicted Republican policy and say how they voted for Cruz in the primaries.

It all depends on the size and scope of the investigation. If this ends up in a 9/11 style inquiry then they are screwed. Mueller is hiring prosecutors (not investigators) and prosecutors expert in fraud and money laundering.
There wont be any hidey hold in that case.
They seem to be concentrating on their only outlet. Which is to gerrymander, cut the electoral roll (get cyber help?) for the 2018 election.
They are not interested in democracy any more. Lets hope there are many Republican arrests.

BTW: There is a very large digital element to the investigation. The Mercer's who were Cruz's backers will come out badly when the owners of propaganda sites coordinating with Russian propaganda are examined and when Cambridge Analytica's role is fully exposed.

demfad

Palmy wrote: »

No but what I do find amusing though is how you know everything being Irish and on an Irish Forum. Oh and by the way I am Irish and live in the States.

If Trump jnr knowingly tried to get help from Russia to help his father win the election then this is treason. Yet you and many Trump supporters seem to think this is OK somehow?
I dont know if youre a genuine supporter or something else. But for his supporters there will be a time in the future when other generations ask about Trump, perhaps kids and grandkids and the likes of you will lie about your support for Donald Trump, the most infamous traitor in US history.