Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

demfad

Palmy wrote: »

No what should be treason is when your the Secretary of State and sell 20 % of the U.S uranium to Russia who then gives it to Iran. Then those said people in Russia donate 100 million to the Clinton foundation and then your husband doubles his fee while doing speeches in Russia. Don't get me started on the 1000 of classified emails, 7 blackberry phones that mysteriously smashed into pieces and Benghazi.

The Uranium stories and others have been debunked. They emerged from from a book turned film called 'Clinton Cash'. This production was by a company called 'Glittering Steel' and was produced by one Stephen K Bannon.

The money/brains behind it was from Robert/Rebekah Mercer who brought Breitbart/Cambridge Analytica and a major Superpac to Trump's campaign when their own Christian supremacist/Racist/Mysoginist/dominionist/climate denying nutjob candidate Cruz's campaign ended.

They have targetted her from a long way out as have the GOP with the Bengazi nonsense.

Now if you can provide a shred of evidence to back your position please do. Right now the longer people like you cling to Trump the more foolish you look. You were played. Get off the 'Trump Train' (pass the puke bag)

seamus

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I didn't even think of this.

Can you imagine how horrifying it would be to see the Americans executing their own president?

I'm not sure "horrifying" is the word I'd use.

Disappointing, upsetting. But to a certain extent I wouldn't be surprised. There is so much churning going on in the US at the moment. Since the 50s, nothing but sectarianism and fear-mongering going on in order to manipulate the population.
You have private militias stockpiling arms in anticipation of an upcoming war. Decades and generations of people being told about liberal bogeymen who are coming to take your guns, abort your children, send your job overseas and ban your religion.

Trump doesn't have control over this. Nationalism can turn on any politician faster than you can say "treason".

For the last few years, the kind of authoritarian ultra-nationalism that results in a leader being executed has never seemed more than a few tumultuous months away.

demfad

What people must remember here is that the Russians had the hacked emails at this point but had not dumped them yet. Just after this meeting you have Trump asking Russia to hack emails, You have Trump changing Ukraine position it RNC etc.
When Don Jr said she had nothing to offer....she potentially had a lot to offer...The Russians had a lot to offer.

Another question is why did Kushner give so much detail when finally being honest in his security clearance? He could have agreed a 'story' with Don Jr?

As a person of interest for the FBI you would assume there was a FISA wire on all her conversations. The Feds knew what happened at that meeting so Kushner had to divulge.

What did they discuss? Dirt on Clinton. Adoptions(??): After the Maginsky case (money laundering) the US imposed the first human rights sanctions on Russians. The Kremlin responded by stopping Russian baby adoptions to US families. When Don Jr says they discussed 'adoptions' he is technically correct (he has to be technically truthful). But 'adoptions' means 'sanctions'.

If they were dumb enough to meet her we can assume that there is more, a lot more. More meetings.

FISA tapes can only be used in exceptional circumstances, but I believe they can be used to show a person lied on security forms. That's up to 10 years in jail. Kushner is already in trouble by leaving the foreign contacts section blank. He had to disclose this meeting or risk certain jail time.

We are getting close to a point where one of these guys Flynn, Manafort, Kushner, Page, Trump Jr will be faced with jail time. Then it falls apart for them, (and comes together for most everybody else)

Professor Moriarty

demfad wrote: »

What people must remember here is that the Russians had the hacked emails at this point but had not dumped them yet. Just after this meeting you have Trump asking Russia to hack emails, You have Trump changing Ukraine position it RNC etc.
When Don Jr said she had nothing to offer....she potentially had a lot to offer...The Russians had a lot to offer.

Another question is why did Kushner give so much detail when finally being honest in his security clearance? He could have agreed a 'story' with Don Jr?

As a person of interest for the FBI you would assume there was a FISA wire on all her conversations. The Feds knew what happened at that meeting so Kushner had to divulge.

What did they discuss? Dirt on Clinton. Adoptions(??): After the Maginsky case (money laundering) the US imposed the first human rights sanctions on Russians. The Kremlin responded by stopping Russian baby adoptions to US families. When Don Jr says they discussed 'adoptions' he is technically correct (he has to be technically truthful). But 'adoptions' means 'sanctions'.

If they were dumb enough to meet her we can assume that there is more, a lot more. More meetings.

FISA tapes can only be used in exceptional circumstances, but I believe they can be used to show a person lied on security forms. That's up to 10 years in jail. Kushner is already in trouble by leaving the foreign contacts section blank. He had to disclose this meeting or risk certain jail time.

We are getting close to a point where one of these guys Flynn, Manafort, Kushner, Page, Trump Jr will be faced with jail time. Then it falls apart for them, (and comes together for most everybody else)

And when faced with jail time, one or more will choose full disclosure in return for leniency...

Christy42

So we have a confession that his son attempted to collude with the Russians and it is still being called a Conspiracy theory.

Is there legitimately any level of proof people would accept?

As for the excuse that nothing was gained from the meeting it is entirely besides the point. If I attempt to kill someone I still go to jail. Trump Jr's incompetence is not an excuse (Christ it is scraping the bottom of the barrel to go there in the first place though).

Professor Moriarty

Christy42 wrote: »

So we have a confession that his son attempted to collude with the Russians and it is still being called a Conspiracy theory.

Is there legitimately any level of proof people would accept?

As for the excuse that nothing was gained from the meeting it is entirely besides the point. If I attempt to kill someone I still go to jail. Trump Jr's incompetence is not an excuse (Christ it is scraping the bottom of the barrel to go there in the first place though).

The craven GOP is crucial in all of this. If they turn on the Trumps then it's game over. If they continue flush their principles down the toilet then the Trumps will tweet their way out of it.

InTheTrees

demfad wrote: »

We are getting close to a point where one of these guys Flynn, Manafort, Kushner, Page, Trump Jr will be faced with jail time.

There will probably be a lot of presidential pardons unfortunately. Assuming Trump doesnt get impeached.

Professor Moriarty

InTheTrees wrote: »

There will probably be a lot of presidential pardons unfortunately. Assuming Trump doesnt get impeached.

Trump pardoning his own son on charges of treason? Or his son-in-law? Can't see that happening. Even that would be too much for Game of Thrones.

DaniilKharms

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Trump pardoning his own son on charges of treason? Or his son-in-law? Can't see that happening. Even that would be too much for Game of Thrones.

That would 100% happen. For the "good of the country".

demfad

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

And when faced with jail time, one or more will choose full disclosure in return for leniency...

The Feds/Mueller will go for the minimum number of rats needed to get the king rat/s. That means that if someone is going to turn, they should turn early.
Flynn has already pleaded the 5th re the Senate Intel investigation. They would like him to receive maximum punishment but they may agree leniency due to the National threat.

DaniilKharms

demfad wrote: »

The Feds/Mueller will go for the minimum number of rats needed to get the king rat/s. That means that if someone is going to turn, they should turn early.
Flynn has already pleaded the 5th re the Senate Intel investigation. They would like him to receive maximum punishment but they may agree leniency due to the National threat.

There has been a LOT of speculation over the last month or so that he's already cooperating with the Feds. We'll see I guess.

demfad

InTheTrees wrote: »

There will probably be a lot of presidential pardons unfortunately. Assuming Trump doesnt get impeached.

That will be taken into account by the Mueller/FBI investigations and by Eric Schneidermans (NY AG) massive probe into the Trump Empire in New York.
Impeachment will happen before pardons. If Pence is complicit this will also hold true.

DaniilKharms

demfad wrote: »

That will be taken into account by the Mueller/FBI investigations and by Eric Schneidermans (NY AG) massive probe into the Trump Empire in New York.
Impeachment will happen before pardons. If Pence is complicit this will also hold true.

Impeachment is a political process. As it stands it has 0% chance of happening unless the other party gains complete control of Congress.

Professor Moriarty

Ladbrokes have Trump at 8/11 (58% chance) to be impeached or resign before 2010.

InTheTrees

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Impeachment is a political process. As it stands it has 0% chance of happening unless the other party gains complete control of Congress.

I agree its unlikely, but I've heard mention that if Trumps popularity numbers fall below a certain point he will start to be a burden on the re-election chances of members and they'll start to turn on him, and when that happens it will be quick.

I expect Muellers team will execute all their warrants on one day, like an organised crime bust. That might be the event that turns congress.

DaniilKharms

InTheTrees wrote: »

I agree its unlikely, but I've heard mention that if Trumps popularity numbers fall below a certain point he will start to be a burden on the re-election chances of members and they'll start to turn on him, and when that happens it will be quick.

I expect Muellers team will execute all their warrants on one day, like an organised crime bust. That might be the event that turns congress.

The thing is, we don't even know if Muller is going to still have a job tomorrow, much less if he's going to issue meaningful warrants, much less how people will behave when that happens, much less how Congress would vote on impeachment.

And frankly, the BASE of the GOP loves Trump. So the opposite calculation can easily be true i.e. GOP pols won't impeach Trump BECAUSE it would hurt them politically.

You can't IMO look at this rationally. This is a system where two groups of partisans play games to retain power, and neither side will even begin to listen to the other. So, as long as the GOP and it's supporters are willing to claim Muller is a Democratic operative, Trump will probably be safe.

And god knows, unless the Dems come up with something meaningful other than the GOP are scumbags Trump could even be reelected.

America's broken. It's media is broken. It's political system is broken. It's healthcare and education systems are broken, etc., etc.

Assuming this will all work out ok in the end is a pretty big assumption.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ladbrokes have Trump at 8/11 (58% chance) to be impeached or resign before 2010.

I wouldn't be putting any money on that. :pac:

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't be putting any money on that. :pac:

Yeah. Fat finger moment! 2020 obviously. Given the first six months of his presidency though, I think it's worth a punt.

demfad

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Impeachment is a political process. As it stands it has 0% chance of happening unless the other party gains complete control of Congress.

0% chance? If it is demonstrated that Trump committed treason and that he is still colluding with the Kremlin to undermine the USA then the Impeachment may be less damaging than non-impeachment to the GOP.

I believe that some major players in the GOP are/have betraying signs of being compromised. But with overwhelming evidence of collusion I don't see how they can avoid impeachment without going the authoritarian route to kill the investigation and democracy altogether.

There is a good chance of the latter happening.

I would put impeachment at well above 0% before 2018 though.

red ears

Trump is not going to be impeached, nothing much will come of this Russian thing and he will see out his term.

DaniilKharms

demfad wrote: »

0% chance? If it is demonstrated that Trump committed treason and that he is still colluding with the Kremlin to undermine the USA then the Impeachment may be less damaging than non-impeachment to the GOP.

I believe that some major players in the GOP are/have betraying signs of being compromised. But with overwhelming evidence of collusion I don't see how they can avoid impeachment without going the authoritarian route to kill the investigation and democracy altogether.

There is a good chance of the latter happening.

I would put impeachment at well above 0% before 2018 though.

Currently as it stands yes.

Do you think today any Republicans would vote for impeachment?

Do you think a majority in the Congress would?

The obvious answer to the second question in no. And so yes, 0% chance.

You can't think of this like there's some rational majority of Republicans - and that's who controls this process - willing to go after Trump. There's not. And unless the base - that's the people that keep all of these congressmen and senators in power - decide to suddenly turn on Trump there won't be a majority of Republicans willing to push articles of impeachment, no matter what the "fake news" says.

So, don't get your hopes up, unless Dems retake congress AND the senate in 2018, which they probably won't. Well, they could, but they could just as easily lose.

Really Interested

Trump Jr releases Russia email chain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40574564

No info yet will be interesting to see what emails contain.

Really Interested

red ears wrote: »

Trump is not going to be impeached, nothing much will come of this Russian thing and he will see out his term.

Does you statement change if by some miracle the Dems take the house and Senate in 2018?

Professor Moriarty

Oooops....breaking on the NYT:

"Over the last several days, The New York Times has disclosed the existence of the meeting, whom it involved and what it was about. The story has unfolded as The Times has been able to confirm details of the meetings.

But the email exchanges, which were reviewed by The Times, offer a detailed unspooling of how the meeting with the Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, came about †and just how eager Donald J. Trump was to accept what he was explicitly told was the Russian government's help."

"The June 3, 2016, email sent to Donald Trump Jr. could hardly have been more explicit: One of his father's former Russian business partners had been contacted by a senior Russian government official and was offering to provide the Trump campaign with dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The documents would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father, read the email, written by a trusted intermediary, who added, This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump.

If the future president's elder son was surprised or disturbed by the provenance of the promised material or the notion that it was part of an ongoing effort by the Russian government to aid his father's campaign†he gave no indication.

He replied within minutes: If it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer.

Four days later, after a flurry of emails, the intermediary wrote back, proposing a meeting in New York on Thursday with a Russian government attorney.

ThisRegard

Really Interested wrote: »

Trump Jr releases Russia email chain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40574564

No info yet will be interesting to see what emails contain.

He posted it on his Twitter, it's pretty incriminating to the Trump campaign! Have a read and it's a big WTF.

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/884789839522140166

...their meeting to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.
.......

.....
I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to your first.
Best
Rob Goldstone.

And in another world
https://twitter.com/MegWClayton/status/884793516928286721

DaniilKharms

Really Interested wrote: »

Trump Jr releases Russia email chain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40574564

No info yet will be interesting to see what emails contain.

Leroy42

The NYT are continuing to update the story. It seems they have gotten used to the fact that WH denies and puts out seemingly possible versions and are dripping this story in order to let them tie themselves in knots. Each time they put forward an excuse the NYT come back with evidence to disprove it.

Remember that almost all the main protagonists in Trumps team: Trump, Pence, Manafort, KA Conway, Sessions have all categorically stated that no meetings took place with Russians.

Trump and others have even taken to calling the whole thing a witch hunt. All that is now blown out of the water. Regardless of the actual ins ans outs of this (and they look pretty bad) yet again Trump is forced onto the back foot but this time simply claiming Fake News etc won't carry any weight as his own son has dropped them all in it.

DaniilKharms

Sure Republicans will be defending this in less than an hour.

Really Interested

DaniilKharms wrote: »

This is just too good just watched a Trump mouth piece claim that Don Jr. would have just pulled the other lads into the meeting on the fly, now we know it was all arranged. This is beautiful can't wait till about a years time when it will be easier to find a American Christian who admits to having gay Donkey sex than getting one to admit they voted for King David sorry I mean Trump prisoner number 1098745.

derb12

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Sure Republicans will be defending this in less than an hour.

Or maybe just maybe we are at the point where they just got nothin!! Will be very interesting to watch the attempted spin anyway.

I had just watched Anna Navarro on AC360 last night saying that trump Jr was supposed to be the smart one but maybe he was dropped on his head. Gotta agree based on this tweet.

Billy86

I wonder if Rob Goldstone has roped himself into this too now, especially considering he vehemently stated:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-email-candidacy.html
But Mr. Goldstone, who wrote the email over a year ago, denied any knowledge of involvement by the Russian government in the matter, saying that never dawned on him. “Never, never ever,” he said. Later, after the email was described to The Times, efforts to reach him for further comment were unsuccessful.

Meanwhile in the email: This is obviously very sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr Trump.

The consistency of point blank lies from anyone even close to Trump on this would be called too stupid to be funny in even a slapstick comedy.

Billy86

Leroy42 wrote: »

The NYT are continuing to update the story. It seems they have gotten used to the fact that WH denies and puts out seemingly possible versions and are dripping this story in order to let them tie themselves in knots. Each time they put forward an excuse the NYT come back with evidence to disprove it.

Yep, the last few days really should serve as a blueprint for exactly how to report on all of these things from now on with this administration. Give a little, let them lie, give a little more and expose the lie, let them lie again, give more again to show up that lie (and the same for everyone involved, e.g. Goldstone here) and keep on going with it. Keep giving them enough rope, which is exactly what happened here.

Professor Moriarty

Why is Junior releasing the emails? What does he have to gain?

Really Interested

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why is Junior releasing the emails? What does he have to gain?

Try to control the story. The NYT have them and maybe more.

ECO_Mental

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why is Junior releasing the emails? What does he have to gain?

Itssoeasy

So I just read the emails released by trump jr. who the hell is advising him legally ? President trump and his team can't call it fake news as it's stuff his own family have released. Did trump jr think by releasing these emails that this would lead to a "nothing to see here" situation ? If that's what he thought then he's deluded.

ECO_Mental

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Yeah nyt have the emails and were going to release them anyway wow just wow

Professor Moriarty

Really Interested wrote: »

Try to control the story. The NYT have them and maybe more.

But there didn't seem to be any narrative or defence? Seems self-defeating. Which is fine.

DaniilKharms

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why is Junior releasing the emails? What does he have to gain?

NYTimes called him for comment as they were about to release them says Twitter.

And btw here's the rest of the pages:




And Page 4, so they can all be in one place.



This of course means JK lied on his security forms, again and that all the BS about no collusion was all just that, BS.

This is CLEARLY illegal.

DT Jr is a bit ****ed.

Billy86

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why is Junior releasing the emails? What does he have to gain?

Not sure but it could be with how much he otherwise has to lose, either that or a moment of panic. Or... flat out stupidity, thinking that it not mentioning hacks might do something good for him.

There is point blank proof (not evidence, proof) there that they went knowing those he was speaking with were acting on behalf of the Russian government and that they were looking to influence the election in Trump's favour. He then met with this actor with a close adviser to Trump as well as his campaign manager, and was prepared for discussions on adoptions and sanctions imposed.

What I would give to be a fly on the wall in the Manafort or Kushner households these last few days!!

Professor Moriarty

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Rats in a sinking ship if that's the case, though he'd hardly scupper his own father's presidency so easily? If you're right, the scramble for higher ground will be fun to watch.

Professor Moriarty

DaniilKharms wrote: »

NYTimes called him for comment as they were about to release them says Twitter.

And btw here's the rest of the pages:




And Page 4, so they can all be in one place.



This of course means JK lied on his security forms, again and that all the BS about no collusion was all just that, BS.

This is CLEARLY illegal.

DT Jr is a bit ****ed.

Looking forward to Kellyanne's take on this.

Leroy42

And to think all those excuses about tgem not knowing who they were meeting, what was going to be discussed, this woman had no Kremlin connections.

Its all totally false. Nothing but lies. And Trumo has the audacity to call out Fake News!

This one seems different and is very fast getting out of control.

Leroy42

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

DaniilKharms wrote: »

NYTimes called him for comment as they were about to release them says Twitter.

And btw here's the rest of the pages:




And Page 4, so they can all be in one place.



This of course means JK lied on his security forms, again and that all the BS about no collusion was all just that, BS.

This is CLEARLY illegal.

DT Jr is a bit ****ed.

Looking forward to Kellyanne's take on this.

I know what you mean, but really nobody should even be asking her to comment.

She has shown herself time and again to be quite haopy to lie so anything she says can be discounted at this stage

DaniilKharms

CNN is reporting right now that NYTimes was about to publish the emails.

They called him for comment , he didn't respond, but instead sent this tweet w/ emails.

ECO_Mental

Holy ****....... it says the Russian prosecutor e.g. Russian government want to provide help incriminate Clinton

That's official Russian gov help a hostile foreign government. Will potus trump last till the end of the week. Treason is I ever saw it.....

mayo.mick

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Looking forward to Kellyanne's take on this.

What was that Kellyanne phrase again???

DaniilKharms

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Holy ****....... it says the Russian prosecutor e.g. Russian government want to provide help incriminate Clinton

That's official Russian gov help a hostile foreign government. Will potus trump last till the end of the week. Treason is I ever saw it.....

AND it shows DT Jr., Manafort and JK knew about this, and all were involved, from go.

And lied about it.

JK lied about it on security clearance forms as well.

DaniilKharms

mayo.mick wrote: »

What was that Kellyanne phrase again???

Alternative facts...

hollypink

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

But there didn't seem to be any narrative or defence? Seems self-defeating. Which is fine.

Yes, that's what's puzzling about it - surely it only helps him to get ahead of the story if it can be spun in some way to look less damaging?

Some of the mail trail doesn't seem real - who would state something so explicitly in an email? Would you not want to keep it very confidential?

“This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”