Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

InTheTrees

InTheTrees wrote: »

"He accompanied the lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, to the June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower attended by Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/russian-lawyer-brought-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer-trump-team-n782851

Veselnitskaya has confirmed that she was accompanied by "at least one other person" (we know one was an interpreter) to the meeting.

Billy86

InTheTrees wrote: »

Hopefully this new revelation about Don Jr will mean the end of republicans repeating the same talking point "nothingburger" over and over and over.

That was their response to the Trump Jr fiasco, and anyone surprised by it deserves to be slapped with a fish. It's been clear for well over a year now (if not considerably longer) that they value the letter (R) over their own country.

Also, Trump Jr. has been asked to testify in front of the Senate Committee going on on Russia. If he does agree (I highly doubt it!), be sure to keep an eye on Angus King who has been grilling people excellently so far. Also look for some of the Republicans, particularly Tom Cotton, to try and continue to sell their own country away.

Professor Moriarty

InTheTrees wrote: »

Hopefully this new revelation about Don Jr will mean the end of republicans repeating the same talking point "nothingburger" over and over and over.

Even the language they use: 'Nothingburger'. Grow up, FFS.

Billy86

Nothing substantiated, but talk going that the extra person in the office was Rinat Akhmetshin. The following is from Chuck Grasserley (one of the few Republicans not seemingly eager to cover this up and who asked Trump Jr in front of the Senate committee), and is dated from March, long before any of this current story broke:

https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/complaint-firm-behind-dossier-former-russian-intel-officer-joined-lobbying-effort

In 2012, President Obama signed into law the Magnitsky Act, named for a lawyer who suspiciously died in Russian custody after accusing Russian government officials and members of organized crime of using corporate identity theft against Hermitage Capital Management to fraudulently obtain and launder $230 million, some of which allegedly ended up in U.S. real estate projects. The Magnitsky Act imposed sanctions against those involved as well as other Russians designated as human rights abusers.

In 2013, the Justice Department opened a case to seize the U.S. assets of Russian-owned Prevezon Holdings, which received millions of dollars from the theft and used it to purchase real estate in New York, according to the department’s complaint. In response, Prevezon Holdings and the Kremlin launched a campaign to undermine the Magnitsky Act and discredit Magnitsky’s claims of corruption, according to a 2016 complaint by Hermitage CEO William Browder. Fusion GPS and Rinat Akhmetshin, among others, were involved in the pro-Russia campaign in 2016, which involved lobbying congressional staffers to attempt to undermine the Justice Department’s account of Magnitsky’s death and the crime he uncovered, repeal the Magnitsky Act itself, and delay efforts to expand it to countries beyond Russia, according to Browder’s complaint. Akhmetshin, a Russian immigrant, has reportedly admitted to being a “soviet counterintelligence officer,” and has a long history of lobbying the U.S. government for pro-Russia matters. Fusion GPS was reportedly tasked with generating negative press coverage of Browder and Hermitage.

InTheTrees

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Even the language they use: 'Nothingburger'. Grow up, FFS.

Did you see conway's performance yesterday?

Jesus christ. What the F is wrong with these people?

(Putin must be hysterical)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnVZDygsP2M

Mardy Bum

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Even the language they use: 'Nothingburger'. Grow up, FFS.

This is actually very clever propaganda. Trump's supporters lack critical thinking faculties. They need everything in small chunks. This word allows them to reject the whole scandal. She was on the news doing the same thing yesterday say collusion is an illusion.

It is bloody brilliant because it works.

Professor Moriarty

InTheTrees wrote: »

Did you see conway's performance yesterday?

Jesus christ. What the F is wrong with these people?

(Putin must be hysterical)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnVZDygsP2M

Yes I saw it. Cringeworthy. I can't believe there is such incompetency and idiocy with such power. It really does show the Republican base to be utterly duped and backward.

Billy86

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is actually very clever propaganda. Trump's supporters lack critical thinking faculties. They need everything in small chunks. This word allows them to reject the whole scandal. She was on the news doing the same thing yesterday say collusion is an illusion.

It is bloody brilliant because it works.

How dare you call Trump fans idio---

[IntheTrees video above stops buffering, starts playing]

---what the actual f***?

SeamusFX

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is actually very clever propaganda. Trump's supporters lack critical thinking faculties. They need everything in small chunks. This word allows them to reject the whole scandal. She was on the news doing the same thing yesterday say collusion is an illusion.

It is bloody brilliant because it works.

It's only brilliant for people with very low IQs!

Leroy42

InTheTrees wrote: »

Did you see conway's performance yesterday?

Jesus christ. What the F is wrong with these people?

(Putin must be hysterical)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnVZDygsP2M

Once small thing she said was "collusion, No, they don't have that yet" Yet! Why throw that in. WHy not simply no collusion as it never happened, they are 100% innocent etc etc

I picked up on it a the time but MSNBC also brought it up.

She has to stay that as she is now caught. Either she doesn't know or she is lying. She said previously (as did the WH) that there was never any meetings so either she was lying or she didn't know. Either way her credibility is shot so she is left to making jokes.

derb12

SeamusFX wrote: »

It's only brilliant for people with very low IQs!

Almost half the population have below-average IQs I'm afraid.

SeamusFX

derb12 wrote: »

Almost half the population have below-average IQs I'm afraid.

Yes and that's how Trump got elected!

Leroy42

SeamusFX wrote: »

Yes and that's how Trump got elected!

That is not true. Trump was elected because of a number of reasons.

Set-up of politics in US, either its DNC or GOP to win.
HC being a compromised candidate in as far as, IMO, she lacks the likability factor
GOP had done a great job over the last 10 years dragging down HC. Why the DNC didn't recognise the extent of this and go with someone else is strange.
Desire for change - 8 years with POTUS usually means a swing to the other party.
Trump was treated as entertainment by most and didn't have the level of real scrutiny that he should have had.
And yes, there are lots of people who, whilst they made not have a low IQ, are ignorant of the main issues and rely on headlines or Twitter for information

LeinsterDub

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is not true. Trump was elected because of a number of reasons.

Set-up of politics in US, either its DNC or GOP to win.
HC being a compromised candidate in as far as, IMO, she lacks the likability factor
GOP had done a great job over the last 10 years dragging down HC. Why the DNC didn't recognise the extent of this and go with someone else is strange.
Desire for change - 8 years with POTUS usually means a swing to the other party.
Trump was treated as entertainment by most and didn't have the level of real scrutiny that he should have had.
And yes, there are lots of people who, whilst they made not have a low IQ, are ignorant of the main issues and rely on headlines or Twitter for information

And don't forget Hillary wasn't that appealing. For many it was a flip of a coin , lesser of two evils or just stay at home choice .

Leroy42

Billy86 wrote: »

Nothing substantiated, but talk going that the extra person in the office was Rinat Akhmetshin. The following is from Chuck Grasserley (one of the few Republicans not seemingly eager to cover this up and who asked Trump Jr in front of the Senate committee), and is dated from March, long before any of this current story broke:

https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/complaint-firm-behind-dossier-former-russian-intel-officer-joined-lobbying-effort

Apparently Rinat has now confirmed that he was at the meeting.

Still, I'm sure this is the last piece that Trump Jr didn't tells us.

Total transparency, unless he just forgets

Itssoeasy

It appears that Donald is hiring another lawyer who's name is TY Cobb. No that isn't a joke and for those of us who are baseball fans that name is well known.

I mean just when I thought this whole mess couldn't get any more bizarre the trumps hire a lawyer named TY ****ing Cobb.

LeinsterDub

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It appears that Donald is hiring another lawyer who's name is TY Cobb. No that isn't a joke and for those of us who are baseball fans that name is well known.

I mean just when I thought this whole mess couldn't get any more bizarre the trumps hire a lawyer named TY ****ing Cobb.

He can hire OJ's dream team for all he likes. If he and his underlings refuse to listen to them it will make no odds

Water John

Is this Don Snr? Remember his attorney had a 'tired and emotional' outburst last night.

Itssoeasy

Water John wrote: »

Is this Don Snr? Remember his attorney had a 'tired and emotional' outburst last night.

I think it is Don Sr. yes I saw that earlier.

Trigger

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It appears that Donald is hiring another lawyer who's name is TY Cobb. No that isn't a joke and for those of us who are baseball fans that name is well known.

I mean just when I thought this whole mess couldn't get any more bizarre the trumps hire a lawyer named TY ****ing Cobb.

For those that don't know, Ty Cobb is a hall of fame baseball player who was described as "the worst racist to ever play the game"

Billy86

Akhmetshin has now confirmed he was also in the meeting.

https://twitter.com/jpaceDC/status/885868052763561988

Oh, yeah, and now apparently it is circulating that there was a sixth person at the meeting!

Itssoeasy

Billy86 wrote: »

Akhmetshin has now confirmed he was also in the meeting.

https://twitter.com/jpaceDC/status/885868052763561988

Oh, yeah, and now apparently it is circulating that there was a sixth person at the meeting!

Illicit money flowing to the DNC doesn't sound like it has anything to do with adoptions from Russia.

InTheTrees

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It appears that Donald is hiring another lawyer who's name is TY Cobb. No that isn't a joke and for those of us who are baseball fans that name is well known.

I mean just when I thought this whole mess couldn't get any more bizarre the trumps hire a lawyer named TY ****ing Cobb.

Wtf? I had to go and check on that as it sounds completely weird.

But you're right...someone named Ty Cobb is now defending trump. Bizarre.

It's like he just got a lawyer called Pelé.

Silver Lynel

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This is actually very clever propaganda. Trump's supporters lack critical thinking faculties. They need everything in small chunks. This word allows them to reject the whole scandal. She was on the news doing the same thing yesterday say collusion is an illusion.

It is bloody brilliant because it works.

Yup. It will only get worse.

You would have to assume that as time goes on the sophistication and effectiveness of propaganda can only increase.

Trump has taken advantage of social media and "alternative" news sources to pretty devastating effect.

Either this is a flash in the pan and he get's kicked out with these mistakes never repeated again or we are in for a pretty interesting time in future presidential elections.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/dwayne-the-rock-johnson-president-2020-campaign-election-committee-a7834956.html

It looks like they haven't learned a damn thing.

Professor Moriarty

It's strange. Everytime new revelations about The Donald come out, I think to myself "That's it. He's in deep crap now." But, apart from the media, nobody in the US seems outraged. It all slips under the waves. It's like I'm observing a different planet. Or maybe I'm just too impatient.

PropJoe10

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's strange. Everytime new revelations about The Donald come out, I think to myself "That's it. He's in deep crap now." But, apart from the media, nobody in the US seems outraged. It all slips under the waves. It's like I'm observing a different planet. Or maybe I'm just too impatient.

I've got some American relations and friends that are absolutely outraged and embarrassed about it. But Trump's fanbase won't even bat an eyelid at any of this stuff, because they're so indoctrinated now about the "fake news" propaganda. It's pretty sad and worrying for the future.

Professor Moriarty

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I've got some American relations and friends that are absolutely outraged and embarrassed about it. But Trump's fanbase won't even bat an eyelid at any of this stuff, because they're so indoctrinated now about the "fake news" propaganda. It's pretty sad and worrying for the future.

Yeah, That's actually the frightening part of it. The cult of Trump has brought out a very nasty side to American society. One that feels emboldened and won't be going away anytime soon.

Leroy42

Trump (or his aides) really should be held to account on this. They continually come out with the nothingburger, totally transparent crap and then something else comes out to prove them wrong.

Surely they need to be asked the question as to who is lying? It would seem normal, and expected, that Trump when he found out about it (apparently only a few days ago) would have actually asked to be told everything so they could put together a proper strategy.

Either he did and TJr lied to them (and therefore wasn't even transparent to his own team) or they did know and continued to voice the lie regardless. Either one is a poor look.

But I agree, it seems most journalists over there don't ask the pertinent questions. It seems more about hearing your own voice than actually digging through.

In saying that, both NYT and WP have both some brilliant work the last few months

PropJoe10

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah, That's actually the frightening part of it. The cult of Trump has brought out a very nasty side to American society. One that feels emboldened and won't be going away anytime soon.

Absolutely. It's the growth of the "if I believe in something strongly enough, it doesn't matter if it's true or not" way of thinking. This could be a very destructive 4 years ahead. Hopefully he won't last that long, but it could take America a long time to recover from this phase.

LeinsterDub

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Or maybe I'm just too impatient.

Too impatient the FBI are certainly building a case

Leroy42

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Too impatient the FBI are certainly building a case

Thats the bit I don't get.

What case is there to build for Trump Jr.? He openly admitted what he did.

Even by claiming it was Oppo (which I assume he thought was a good strategy to reduce the claim over illegal intel) Trump Jr has admitted to looking to get something of value. WHich is a clear breach of the law.

There is no money to chase, no foreign offshore bank accounts, no VPN encoded e-mail trails. Its pretty simple.

Professor Moriarty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Too impatient the FBI are certainly building a case

The wheels of justice turn slowly.

LeinsterDub

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats the bit I don't get.

What case is there to build for Trump Jr.? He openly admitted what he did.

Even by claiming it was Oppo (which I assume he thought was a good strategy to reduce the claim over illegal intel) Trump Jr has admitted to looking to get something of value. WHich is a clear breach of the law.

There is no money to chase, no foreign offshore bank accounts, no VPN encoded e-mail trails. Its pretty simple.

They want to catch the big fish and aren't showing their hand?

PropJoe10

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats the bit I don't get.

What case is there to build for Trump Jr.? He openly admitted what he did.

Even by claiming it was Oppo (which I assume he thought was a good strategy to reduce the claim over illegal intel) Trump Jr has admitted to looking to get something of value. WHich is a clear breach of the law.

There is no money to chase, no foreign offshore bank accounts, no VPN encoded e-mail trails. Its pretty simple.

I'm sure there's more than what's come out so far. Be interesting to see what the next revelation is. Seems to be getting closer and closer to Trump Sr. so hope that continues.

Water John

Well Patience is NB. The text of the emails only came out this week. Not sure how recently, FBI and Mueller learned of them. We only learn today of this other shady guy.
Now Don Snr has said he didn't know of this meeting until recent days. But we are aware that on that very day of the meeting, Don Snr promised the crowd, some juicy stuff to come on Hillary.
Do you believe in cooincidence? Does it pass the smell test?
So now, if Don Snr, knew soon after the meeting, not to mind before, he is toast.

I understand the present difficulty of actual impeachment of him.

Billy86

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Billy86 wrote: »

Akhmetshin has now confirmed he was also in the meeting.

https://twitter.com/jpaceDC/status/885868052763561988

Oh, yeah, and now apparently it is circulating that there was a sixth person at the meeting!

Illicit money flowing to the DNC doesn't sound like it has anything to do with adoptions from Russia.

Adoption is just as, if not more, serious to be honest - and that's the part junior confessed to, seemingly unaware everyone would know that also means talking about sanctions.

So talking about damaging info on opponents (getting) with Russians while also talking about their sanctions (giving/taking away), it's pretty clear as day.

Billy86

Leroy42 wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Too impatient the FBI are certainly building a case

Thats the bit I don't get.

What case is there to build for Trump Jr.? He openly admitted what he did.

Even by claiming it was Oppo (which I assume he thought was a good strategy to reduce the claim over illegal intel) Trump Jr has admitted to looking to get something of value. WHich is a clear breach of the law.

There is no money to chase, no foreign offshore bank accounts, no VPN encoded e-mail trails. Its pretty simple.

Because getting junior is not the priority. Kind if like finding some young fella selling grass who you know for a fact is connected with bigger players, who you are certainly were aware but cannot definitely prove in court as of yet.

Ha e you seen The Wire? Think that.

InTheTrees

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats the bit I don't get.

What case is there to build for Trump Jr.? He openly admitted what he did.

I think the investigation will play out like a mafia bust. Like breaking an organized crime family.

They'll issue arrest warrants one night and pick up all these people at the same time one morning at 4am .

Professor Moriarty

InTheTrees wrote: »

I think the investigation will play out like a mafia bust. Like breaking an organized crime family.

They'll issue arrest warrants one night and pick up all these people at the same time one morning at 4am .

Do you think that would happen to POTUS' son and son-in-law? And POTUS himself? Would be great

Billy86

InTheTrees wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats the bit I don't get.

What case is there to build for Trump Jr.? He openly admitted what he did.

I think the investigation will play out like a mafia bust. Like breaking an organized crime family.

They'll issue arrest warrants one night and pick up all these people at the same time one morning at 4am .

Have to admit I do like the thought of all of this bunch sleeping with one eye open, gripping their pillows tight.

Water John

Just heard Kinzinger (R) Illinois on CNN. Very fair. He said, if someone from Canada had asked for the meeting, he would have informed the FBI and taken their instruction whether to go ahead with the meeting or not. That would be so that the FBI could learn what was intended.
The meeting from how American politicians, on all sides, conduct their business, even in the midst of an election, was a no no.
This is classic of how Russian Intelligence reaches out. They don't wear a suit and use friends and friends of friends.

Glad some one with an R calls it as it is.
He said the WH should put it all out there as it will come out anyway.

Billy86

Water John wrote: »

Just heard Kinzinger (R) Illinois on CNN. Very fair. He said, if someone from Canada had asked for the meeting, he would have informed the FBI and taken their instruction whether to go ahead with the meeting or not. That would be so that the FBI could learn what was intended.
The meeting from how American politicians, on all sides, conduct their business, even in the midst of an election, was a no no.
This is classic of how Russian Intelligence reaches out. They don't wear a suit and use friends and friends of friends.

Glad some one with an R calls it as it is.
He said the WH should put it all out there as it will come out anyway.

I'm just surprised that more republicans don't see how good a light the likes of Richard burr, this lad, even lyndsey Graham (words I never thought I would say!) are putting themselves in on this issue. There's no way they don't all see the electoral damage that pretending this never happened is doing to them, some are in "invincible" seats sure but far from all... Which really raises a tonne of questions. Meanwhile the likes of burr and Graham have bought themselves the moral high ground for the rest of their political careers... if Trump goes down burr is pretty easily sitting o na strong primary run for republican candidacy already in my opinion.

RobertKK

Some in the US getting upset that others do what the US does.

The US interferes in elections, topple governments they dislike, and even use lies to go to war to topple governments.

So what if Russia did to the US, what the US also does to other nations, maybe if the media debated these points, one would take the whole Russia tried to influence the election more seriously.
It is a witch hunt being done by witches, when they are all at it.

InTheTrees

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Do you think that would happen to POTUS' son and son-in-law? And POTUS himself? Would be great

Not The Donald himself, I think he needs to be impeached. But hopefully all the rest of them.

Wishful thinking though probably.

Professor Moriarty

InTheTrees wrote: »

Not The Donald himself, I think he needs to be impeached. But hopefully all the rest of them.

Wishful thinking though probably.

One can but hope.

Billy86

RobertKK wrote: »

Some in the US getting upset that others do what the US does.

The US interferes in elections, topple governments they dislike, and even use lies to go to war to topple governments.

So what if Russia did to the US, what the US also does to other nations, maybe if the media debated these points, one would take the whole Russia tried to influence the election more seriously.
It is a witch hunt being done by witches, when they are all at it.

No thoughts on Trump Jr admitting it all happened then, and providing the proof or just more predictable whataboutery?

Calina

RobertKK wrote: »

Some in the US getting upset that others do what the US does.

The US interferes in elections, topple governments they dislike, and even use lies to go to war to topple governments.

So what if Russia did to the US, what the US also does to other nations, maybe if the media debated these points, one would take the whole Russia tried to influence the election more seriously.
It is a witch hunt being done by witches, when they are all at it.

I don't care if countries try. If the targets find out they have a right to respond rather than lie down and say 'you got us'.

RobertKK

Billy86 wrote: »

No thoughts on Trump Jr admitting it all happened then, and providing the proof or just more predictable whataboutery?

What I posted is factually correct, it is either wrong for the US to be interfering in foreign elections, supporting coups against democratically elected governments, toppling regimes using lies or it is not.

The thing is Trump can make a show of the US if US authorities go against his family by being a president who comes out and exposes all the US is doing, and expose the hypocrisy of the system in the US, it is ok if we do it, but end of the world if it is someone else.

Maybe people here are happy with the hypocrisy, and would rather play an ostrich and ignore the elephant in the room.

Who in the US has ever being held accountable for interfering in elections, supporting coups against democratically elected government and who has ever being held accountable for toppling the governments of Iraq and Libya and causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and wars and battles that continues many, many years after they started the wars?
No one, but we are all suppose to be outraged at the Trump family.

I might be if there wasn't so much hypocrisy involved.

RobertKK

Calina wrote: »

I don't care if countries try. If the targets find out they have a right to respond rather than lie down and say 'you got us'.

When has the US ever being held accountable though?

Noel82

Billy86 wrote: »

No thoughts on Trump Jr admitting it all happened then, and providing the proof or just more predictable whataboutery?

Providing proof of what?

There's proof the Ukranian government disseminated documents working with paid DNC staffers alluding fraud which led to Paul Manafort resigning.

Selective moral outrage is a thing it seems.