Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

aloyisious · 24-07-2017 10:01pm

I am going WTF watching Fox News finance Cavuto interviewing the WH budget boss Mulvaney about a deal with Dems over the ACA, WH reducing taxes take from health care plan, doing a deal on taxes elsewhere. There was a rider that the interview took place earlier, Next thing coming across the tickertape display at base of screen was an item: Trump considering replacing Jeff Sessions as AG with Rudi Giuliani, so I found this on the net......

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjol52c56LVAhUsCsAKHaJ4BeQQqUMIJzAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.axios.com%2Fexclusive-trump-ponders-rudy-giuliani-for-attorney-general-2464579234.html&usg=AFQjCNEwfab48upU-mHJd4YB8U5FIDHMyg

Plus these allegedly from Rudi about Jeff's decision to recuse himself....... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjol52c56LVAhUsCsAKHaJ4BeQQqUMILzAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.com%2Fstory%2F2017%2F07%2F24%2Frudy-giuliani-jeff-sessions-recuse-russia-240890&usg=AFQjCNEJfvq9ZfiQz9sOIpw1ao_J-ZmdnA

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjol52c56LVAhUsCsAKHaJ4BeQQqUMIKzAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2017%2F07%2F24%2Fpolitics%2Frudy-giuliani-jeff-sessions%2Findex.html&usg=AFQjCNFJ8VauMOaBkRuWhhA19Y6eDvEByA

Edit. Looking at Rudy's alleged comments about Jeff doing the right thing in recusing himself, I think it might be a reply of sorts to Don on his musing about Jeff [sorry Mr President, I'm recusing myself from the job as I agree with Jeff's actions]

Ipse dixit · 24-07-2017 10:40pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

US elections have some serious problems, as you stated but that doesn't mean that Russia's influence can be ignored.

It's well known that they disseminate fake news* stories and propaganda through state run media and social networks in an attempt to destabilise countries. If you want to understand how this works, you should listen to Clint Watts at the Senate Intelligence Committee open hearing from last March or any of the many public statements by current and former heads of US intelligence services. You can also google "Firehose of falsehood" to learn how Russian propaganda works.

Russia's neighbours have been targeted with this strategy previously and this time, the US was targeted. There is also a strong possibility that they had help from the inside. If you don't think this is serious, that's fine but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone other than Trumpers that this isn't serious.

* By fake news, I mean actual fake news. Articles from dubious sources, often completely fabricated, designed to deceive. Trump grossly misuses the term to describe articles and media organisations that he doesn't like. Coincidentally, Putin dies this too.

I'll just state that I believe that Russia did hack the DNC servers but ultimately in this age of cyber crime no concrete evidence can be obtained especially in state sponsored cyber espionage. I believe a lot of resources are being wasted to try and make Trump appear involved in this mess. Maybe he is but the likelihood of a smoking gun is extremely remote in this situation. However, that doesn't mean that these allegations shouldn't be investigated.

I just think a lot of time is being wasted on political grandstanding instead of dealing with the real issues in US politics and a country becoming more divided every day.

Sure the DNC server hacking would have influenced and perhaps swayed people towards Trump but the content was self inflicted damage by the Democrats. I believe the actions of CNN and some others have done far more to bring Donald Trump to presidency than Russia or Putin has.

The fact that Trump even got on the ticket should have been a massive wake up call to US politics and sadly it hasn't been. Instead of focusing on issues that resonate with voters were all mad for the next fix of this Russian saga. I bet the people of Flint are delighted the press, the Dems and GOP are fixated on this Russian saga while US infrastructure is on its knees and there are major health care issues across the country. Meanwhile their water is the same colour as my dog's sick!

Water John · 24-07-2017 10:43pm

So you arrive late for a meeting. Not sure what the meeting is about, but there are 4 Russians there. Don't you think WTF. This is not a good place to be and running a campaign for my FIL to become POTUS. Leave, straight away, instinct.
Any other reaction, unbelievable.

InTheTrees · 24-07-2017 11:07pm

Water John wrote: »

So you arrive late for a meeting. Not sure what the meeting is about, but there are 4 Russians there. Don't you think WTF. This is not a good place to be and running a campaign for my FIL to become POTUS. Leave, straight away, instinct.
Any other reaction, unbelievable.

And then he doesn't testify under oath. Okay. Why not? I mean really...you're trying to convince us of your innocence but then refuse to testify under oath? After all the lies they've told?

These people are blundering around without any f'ing clue.

mcmoustache · 24-07-2017 11:55pm

Ipse dixit wrote: »

I'll just state that I believe that Russia did hack the DNC servers but ultimately in this age of cyber crime no concrete evidence can be obtained especially in state sponsored cyber espionage. I believe a lot of resources are being wasted to try and make Trump appear involved in this mess. Maybe he is but the likelihood of a smoking gun is extremely remote in this situation. However, that doesn't mean that these allegations shouldn't be investigated.

I just think a lot of time is being wasted on political grandstanding instead of dealing with the real issues in US politics and a country becoming more divided every day.

Sure the DNC server hacking would have influenced and perhaps swayed people towards Trump but the content was self inflicted damage by the Democrats. I believe the actions of CNN and some others have done far more to bring Donald Trump to presidency than Russia or Putin has.

OK. I'm getting the impression that you're somewhat unaware of the extent of the Russian interference. And you're managing to do so despite my provision of some suggestions in the way of self education just a few posts ago.

If you think that all that the Russians did was hack the DNC and dropped the goods to swing the election, you are ignorant of many, many confirmed facts in this dirty saga.

To be honest, it could be argued that they didn't do the DNC hack although there is evidence suggesting Roger Stone was in contact with Gussifer2.0 who didn't make a convincing impression of a Romanian; the country of which he claimed nationality. To put it simply, while there's lots of circumstantial evidence that Team Trump were involved with this, it's not proof.

Anyway, I digress. The DNC hack was only a tiny part of this.

In my last post, I gave you a few starting points with the view that you might educate yourself. You clearly didn't take that opportunity and that is regrettable. Most of the other posters here have been keeping up with the events that have been reported on over the past few months, even the pro-trumpers. If you choose not to be aware of these events, you'll be bringing p1$$ to a $h!t fight and that doesn't end well for anyone involved.

Again, I'd recommend understanding Russian Active Measures which have been employed in eastern europe, the caucuses and in Russia itself. This will give you a good understanding of and provide context for what happened in the US in the years leading up to and after the election. The information is publicly available so there's no excuse for being uninformed. I hope it opens your eyes when you see Trump himself using these techniques. If you still can't see it after informing yourself, I'm not sure that anyone can help you.

aloyisious · 25-07-2017 1:51am

InTheTrees wrote: »

And then he doesn't testify under oath. Okay. Why not? I mean really...you're trying to convince us of your innocence but then refuse to testify under oath? After all the lies they've told?

These people are blundering around without any f'ing clue.

Not even an affirmation?

Ipse dixit · 25-07-2017 7:22am

mcmoustache wrote: »

OK. I'm getting the impression that you're somewhat unaware of the extent of the Russian interference. And you're managing to do so despite my provision of some suggestions in the way of self education just a few posts ago.

If you think that all that the Russians did was hack the DNC and dropped the goods to swing the election, you are ignorant of many, many confirmed facts in this dirty saga.

To be honest, it could be argued that they didn't do the DNC hack although there is evidence suggesting Roger Stone was in contact with Gussifer2.0 who didn't make a convincing impression of a Romanian; the country of which he claimed nationality. To put it simply, while there's lots of circumstantial evidence that Team Trump were involved with this, it's not proof.

Anyway, I digress. The DNC hack was only a tiny part of this.

In my last post, I gave you a few starting points with the view that you might educate yourself. You clearly didn't take that opportunity and that is regrettable. Most of the other posters here have been keeping up with the events that have been reported on over the past few months, even the pro-trumpers. If you choose not to be aware of these events, you'll be bringing p1$$ to a $h!t fight and that doesn't end well for anyone involved.

Again, I'd recommend understanding Russian Active Measures which have been employed in eastern europe, the caucuses and in Russia itself. This will give you a good understanding of and provide context for what happened in the US in the years leading up to and after the election. The information is publicly available so there's no excuse for being uninformed. I hope it opens your eyes when you see Trump himself using these techniques. If you still can't see it after informing yourself, I'm not sure that anyone can help you.

You seem incapable of spelling out your point without resorting to the old chestnut of educate yourself. You seem to be under the assumption that Russia is the only issue at play when it's not. If you believe that Russia is responsible for putting Trump in the White House then you're ignorant to the issues currently facing America.

I'm well aware of what Russia is doing in so far that one can be aware of their methods. However, I'm not gullible enough to believe that they're responsible for Trump being in the White House despite the public outcry over their interference in the election.

You and others simply cannot accept that Donald Trump is president and until he's not there you will continue to blame and focus in on Russia when the issue isn't Russia at all. Others like you will believe in whatever conspiracy theories fit your narrative as you look for an easy and lazy explanation as to why Donald Trump is the American president.

A bit of critical thought really matters. The US is in the midst of a major espionage war with Russia and you want to believe the narrative coming from one side.

Christy42 · 25-07-2017 7:51am

Ipse dixit wrote: »

You seem incapable of spelling out your point without resorting to the old chestnut of educate yourself. You seem to be under the assumption that Russia is the only issue at play when it's not. If you believe that Russia is responsible for putting Trump in the White House then you're ignorant to the issues currently facing America.

I'm well aware of what Russia is doing in so far that one can be aware of their methods. However, I'm not gullible enough to believe that they're responsible for Trump being in the White House despite the public outcry over their interference in the election.

You and others simply cannot accept that Donald Trump is president and until he's not there you will continue to blame and focus in on Russia when the issue isn't Russia at all. Others like you will believe in whatever conspiracy theories fit your narrative as you look for an easy and lazy explanation as to why Donald Trump is the American president.

A bit of critical thought really matters. The US is in the midst of a major espionage war with Russia and you want to believe the narrative coming from one side.

Whether Trump is only in the white house only due to Russian interference is irrelevant. Russian interference happened. I imagine Comey is a more likely reason though really it was an amalgamation.

The left has realised that Trump is president. The large issue is he has not and is still screaming about everything being everyone else's fault like he was the opposition.

You say the US is in an espionage war with Russia. I am unsure of how active it is but surely that is far worse if it is given Trump is at bigger odds with his own intellegence services than the Kremlin and actually complained that law makers made sanctions against Russia! Surely this is a reason that he should be impeached sooner.

aloyisious · 25-07-2017 8:19am

Ipse dixit wrote: »

You seem incapable of spelling out your point without resorting to the old chestnut of educate yourself. You seem to be under the assumption that Russia is the only issue at play when it's not. If you believe that Russia is responsible for putting Trump in the White House then you're ignorant to the issues currently facing America.

I'm well aware of what Russia is doing in so far that one can be aware of their methods. However, I'm not gullible enough to believe that they're responsible for Trump being in the White House despite the public outcry over their interference in the election.

You and others simply cannot accept that Donald Trump is president and until he's not there you will continue to blame and focus in on Russia when the issue isn't Russia at all. Others like you will believe in whatever conspiracy theories fit your narrative as you look for an easy and lazy explanation as to why Donald Trump is the American president.

A bit of critical thought really matters. The US is in the midst of a major espionage war with Russia and you want to believe the narrative coming from one side.

Umm. it seem's to me that it's not the fact that Don is president [we are all aware of that] but more so that members of his election team "forgot" the meetings that they had with official representatives of the Russian Govt during the campaign and keep getting reminders every so often from others outside and inside his campaign to get on message with the truth, instead of drip-feeding the public with "oh yes. I forgot that one" every few days.

The argument from the Trumps et al that the meetings were about research on the other candidate and party [everyone does it] is strawman. The argument that others are solely zeroing in on the Russian involvement is also strawman. Posting that argument is a circular movement. Other factors are acknowledged here as having helped Don to get elected., including choice of candidate and poor electioneering by both parties.

Wouldn't you think that it was really unrepublican for the republican party candidate's election team to take any form of assistance from a foreign government which has as one of its aims the destruction of the US republic?

Oafley Jones · 25-07-2017 9:00am

Washington Post should be readying another big Trump revelation for release today. Between themselves and the NYT, they've been sitting on a series of very damaging stories for a while (at Mueller's request), I wonder what the impetus is in releasing them now.

demfad · 25-07-2017 9:32am

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Washington Post should be readying another big Trump revelation for release today. Between themselves and the NYT, they've been sitting on a series of very damaging stories for a while (at Mueller's request), I wonder what the impetus is in releasing them now.

I wonder what angle.

The coordination between Russia and American actors to get and amplify the hacks, leaks, Fake news from Russian actors to US propaganda websites and personal Facebook pages has received little public attention.
Russians were able to target particular facebook users for dark posts (only the user can see) with stories particularly targetted to their personality/beliefs. Information that they could not have obtained, tasks they could not perform without coordinated help.

It is believed that Robert Mercer controls such a network of US sites and also controls Cambridge Analytica which claimed to know FB personalities of all 220 million US adults (an unlikely claim TBH).

The FBI is investigating comms between the Alpha bank server with the Trump tower server and spectrum health server (Betsy Devos). This could be the comms channel to pass the voter/FB user data to the Russians.

Speculation there, but the point is that digital interactions leave a footprint and false steps cannot be retraced. There is a mountain of evidence on this side if the investigation.

Mercer, Cambridge and it's sister company AggregateIQ brings Brexit into the sphere of collusion. All leave campaigns paid money to Aggregate IQ, the official leave campaign paid half of its budget to this Mercer related entity!

Don't know what the revelations will be, but I hope to hear some relevant to Brexit soon.

Water John · 25-07-2017 9:38am

Demfad, always believed that server is one of the key puzzle parts. It's a server only 2 accessed.

Leroy42 · 25-07-2017 9:42am

ONe small thing that was overlooked in the recent days, with all the AG/Russia/Kushner goings on, is that just after Made in America week in the WH, which aimed to focus on American products and American jobs, two of Trumps gold course in Florida applied for special vivas for 70 foreign workers.

Whatever else one can claim about Trump, he is clearly a hypocrite and has little actual care about the real issues of the US. That is even before we get into his use of foreign factories and Ivanka continued use of foreign factories.

70 might not sound a lot, and it isn't, but is Trump really saying that there isn't 70 Americans that can do these jobs?

ThisRegard · 25-07-2017 9:51am

Oafley Jones wrote: »

I wonder what the impetus is in releasing them now.

I just heard his ridiculous speech to the Boyscouts of America, baiting the press big time.

red ears · 25-07-2017 10:55am

American economy seems to be doing well, illegals are being removed. Trump supporters will be reasonably happy. Let the Fake News organisations knock themselves out with their Russia stuff. Trump supporters will side with Donald over the likes of CNN any day.

ThisRegard · 25-07-2017 10:59am

red ears wrote: »

American economy seems to be doing well, illegals are being removed. Trump supporters will be reasonably happy. Let the Fake News organisations knock themselves out with their Russia stuff. Trump supporters will side with Donald over the likes of CNN any day.

"Fake news", when used in seriousness, deserves a virtual kick in the ass. It never was, and never will be, witty or constructive.

Chips Lovell · 25-07-2017 11:01am

As we warned in the previous thread, less of the #fakenews type stuff please.

Characterising legit news outlets as fake news is a form of trolling.

And less of the back seat moderating too.

Thanks

Leroy42 · 25-07-2017 11:06am

red ears wrote: »

American economy seems to be doing well, illegals are being removed. Trump supporters will be reasonably happy. Let the Fake News organisations knock themselves out with their Russia stuff. Trump supporters will side with Donald over the likes of CNN any day.

I agree that to Joe Sixpack the Russia thing has little real impact, at least that they can actively see. But it is much like the creep of money in politics. It distorts the true nature of democracy and as such is a very serious issue.

But Joe/Jody are obviously more interested in when they can get a job, healthcare etc etc, and from that point of view Russia is less important.

However, even when we focus on that Trump is doing very badly. As I posted above, his golf courses in Florida have recently applied for 70 special visas for foreign workers. Nothing illegal about that, but either he believes in US workers or he doesn't. He hasn't pulled back his own foreign manufacturing or Ivanka's.

And healthcare. At this point it is clear that he willing to let ACA crash and burn rather than work on fixing it. It is basically his way or the puppy gets it! ACA might well be a poor design, but he hasn't given a sufficient case for why millions of Americans should potentially lose any possibility of healthcare whilst the GOP fight it out amongst themselves.

He has done nothing to limit China on the manufacturing sector. He hasn't started the border wall and seems like he is making up ideas as he goes along. He has lost confidence in his own pick for AG, Flynn had to resign in disgrace, he is mired in a fight against his own security forces which open up the possibility that if/when they do present him with a threat he may or not choose to believe them. On current evidence there is no reason to suspect that he would actually accept their proposals.

You mentioned that illegals were being dealt with. How many and how does it compare to Obama? In overall terms, what is the effect of getting rid of these illegals? By the very nature of their status, their access to US state resources would be limited so whilst I agree that from a headline POV it appears that it is getting things done, what is it actually achieving that will impact on Joe Sixpack?

Billy86 · 25-07-2017 11:57am

Ipse dixit wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

No the narrative that the trump campaign kept shouting about them having no connection to russia and never meet with the russians has to stop, as any rational person looking at the facts would have to agree that Donald Trump Jr, Jared Kushner were at the least less than forthcoming with the truth.

So that means the Russian allegations are true? Let's not try and change what you said. It's ok to say something and not be correct. I'm not having a go at you I was just saying your logic was bizarre.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Let's indulge ourselves.

'Collusion' definition:
Secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy in order to deceive others.

Why do you think that Junior secretly met with a Russian lawyer with close ties to the Russian government and with an Russian ex-spook? Why do you think he met with them specifically with the intention of getting dirt on his father's rival candidate?

Again, stop assuming things. I don't know why they met up.

They met up to talk about adoptions and sanctions on Russia on one hand, and getting dirt on their rival candidate on the other. Both parties have already agreed this and publicly stated as much.

Leroy42 · 25-07-2017 12:09pm

Trump has gone off on a Twitter rant against Sessions this morning. Asking why he isn't investigating HC etc. It is amazing that Sessions is now seen as a bastian to stand up to Trump. This is a man that lied under oath and then decided to invoke potential executive privilege despite Trump never calling for it. And yet Trump has managed to make him look like the good guy.

At what point will people who work for Trump realise that loyalty only works one way. Sessions was the 1st senator to get behind him, giving Trump much needed credibility.

Why does the average American think that Trump has any loyalty to them when he shows no loyalty to the people that actually gave him something?

Billy86 · 25-07-2017 12:10pm

red ears wrote: »

American economy seems to be doing well

US dollar is now down 11c vs the euro on where it was at the start of the year, and has even lost 6c on the struggling post brexit british pound in that time.

B0jangles · 25-07-2017 12:21pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Trump has gone off on a Twitter rant against Sessions this morning. Asking why he isn't investigating HC etc. It is amazing that Sessions is now seen as a bastian to stand up to Trump. This is a man that lied under oath and then decided to invoke potential executive privilege despite Trump never calling for it. And yet Trump has managed to make him look like the good guy.

At what point will people who work for Trump realise that loyalty only works one way. Sessions was the 1st senator to get behind him, giving Trump much needed credibility.

Why does the average American think that Trump has any loyalty to them when he shows no loyalty to the people that actually gave him something?

This is a thing which has been baffling me for the last year; over and over and over again Trump has used people and thrown them aside (or under a metaphorical bus) once they've stopped being useful to him and yet even now there are people who are willing to come and work for him - how can they look at what happened/is happening to : Chris Christie, to Sean Spicer, to Reince Priebus, to Jeff Sessions, to give just a few examples and think. "He'd NEVER do that to me!"

mcmoustache · 25-07-2017 12:52pm

Ipse dixit wrote: »

You seem incapable of spelling out your point without resorting to the old chestnut of educate yourself. You seem to be under the assumption that Russia is the only issue at play when it's not. If you believe that Russia is responsible for putting Trump in the White House then you're ignorant to the issues currently facing America.

I'm well aware of what Russia is doing in so far that one can be aware of their methods. However, I'm not gullible enough to believe that they're responsible for Trump being in the White House despite the public outcry over their interference in the election.

You and others simply cannot accept that Donald Trump is president and until he's not there you will continue to blame and focus in on Russia when the issue isn't Russia at all. Others like you will believe in whatever conspiracy theories fit your narrative as you look for an easy and lazy explanation as to why Donald Trump is the American president.

A bit of critical thought really matters. The US is in the midst of a major espionage war with Russia and you want to believe the narrative coming from one side.

I think you might have me mixed up with somebody. Or maybe you're arguing points that aren't being made. I'm not saying that Russia is the only reason for Trump in the White house. I'm also not arguing that he isn't president. You should really stop this strawmanning.

What I am saying is that Russia interfered and that they may have done so with some coordination with Team Trump. That's not all that controversial. The heads of the major intelligence agencies agree that Russia interfered and Trump Junior published emails in which he showed a willingness to collude with Russians. You may try to dismiss this as a conspiracy theory but you can only do that if you ignore or choose to remain wilfully ignorant of events that actually happened.

Leroy42 · 25-07-2017 12:55pm

There is a big difference between a foreign power trying to exert influence over the workings of another government through PR etc (which I think we can all agree goes on all the time by all countries to differing extents) and the citizens of that country actively encouraging the foreign power to become involved and in doing so becoming a partner to it.

That is what Trump Jr, and unless one is being purposefully naive, Trump himself, has done.

Christy42 · 25-07-2017 1:27pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Trump has gone off on a Twitter rant against Sessions this morning. Asking why he isn't investigating HC etc. It is amazing that Sessions is now seen as a bastian to stand up to Trump. This is a man that lied under oath and then decided to invoke potential executive privilege despite Trump never calling for it. And yet Trump has managed to make him look like the good guy.

At what point will people who work for Trump realise that loyalty only works one way. Sessions was the 1st senator to get behind him, giving Trump much needed credibility.

Why does the average American think that Trump has any loyalty to them when he shows no loyalty to the people that actually gave him something?

They believe what they want to believe. The economy has stuttered slightly. Not much but it has and yet somehow all the rhetoric about the economy being terrible or the magical 40% unemployment rate has gone away.

Let's remember that Trump tried to calm the chants of lock her up as soon as he was elected and now has done a second 180 on the topic.

If some people can manage to believe the earth is flat then it seems likely that some can believe that Trump is a good president.

Water John · 25-07-2017 1:37pm

The rant on HC and Sessions, is obviously to bury something else. Either Kushner's hearing yesterday or something that's about to come out.

Distract, distract.

Bluefoam · 25-07-2017 1:38pm

I can't understand why he still gets support... he is going to dismantle social health care and drive costs up for everyone, in the process allowing a huge number of people to die. He is destroying the hundreds of years old connection between Europe & the States, while bringing US closer to their long term enemies Russia... while claiming he has no relationship with Russia. he is braking trade agreements with America's partners around the world... at the same time he goes against the Paris agreement and sticks his (America's) fingers up to the rest of the world... and has been proven to be untrustworthy.

He doesn't seem to understand that Americas power comes from their relationships with other world powers... those allies will very quickly move their attention elsewhere and a new world order will be created, with America at the bottom of the pile... Once that happens the Russians will abandon them laughing.

His healthcare issue seems to be related to his aggravated opinion of Obama, which itself seems to be racially motivated.

The thing is, that none of this is suprising about Trump, but what is surprising (at least initially) is the support he has from the political system & the people of the country... This is what they want... well, the world should let them have it... Shift the power to Europe and Asia, let America deteriorate under its own stream... It will cause some hardship in the short-term, but we can't proceed to support a system we can't trust... Like I said, Americas power is derived from its allies... Let them suffer under their own rhetoric

dfx- · 25-07-2017 1:53pm

Water John wrote: »

The rant on HC and Sessions, is obviously to bury something else. Either Kushner's hearing yesterday or something that's about to come out.

Distract, distract.

I think he's gone into overdrive since it became apparent that Mueller could look into his tax returns and business dealings. Probably starting with pressurising Sessions in the NYT interview last week.

It increasingly looks like Sessions refused to fire Mueller and the campaign is now to push him out? Stabbing him in the back if needs be. Add in Rosenstein and anyone else in the DOJ who might say no as well and then he can replace them with stooges.

oscarBravo · 25-07-2017 1:58pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I can't understand why he still gets support...

That's because you're trying to find a rational basis for that support.

Think about it: more than half of Trump supporters believe that Donald Jr didn't meet with a Russian lawyer after he said he did.

That's cult-like self-delusion. That's Orwellian-grade doublethink. That's the sort of voter that can't be reasoned with.

And that's the problem facing the Democrats. For all the criticism of them for failing to listen to people, there is quite simply nothing rational for them to listen to. I've made the point before: the people have spoken, and what they have said is: "tell us what we want to hear, even if we know you're lying."

circadian · 25-07-2017 2:01pm

His speech at the Jamboree was something else. Telling boy scouts "America first" "Make America great again" and slating Obama and the AHCA. Telling them "you're workers" and offering advice on success using bankrupt, racist property developer William Levitt as an example. Not to mention banging on about the election night and fake media.

It was like something from a national youth rally.

mcmoustache · 25-07-2017 2:11pm

Bluefoam · 25-07-2017 2:14pm

Funny how he addresses Republicans as if they are separate to him....

Water John · 25-07-2017 2:15pm

Does it take him 10 mins av. to come up with each tweet?

Professor Moriarty · 25-07-2017 2:16pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

!0 tweets this morning. He seems to be under a bit of stress.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889788202172780544

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889790429398528000

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889792764363276288

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889794300913045508

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889796918615920640

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889798407228989441

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889800510106107904

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889821674987761664

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889822411356602369

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/889824817473605632

This tweet in particular is disgusting:
So great that John McCain is coming back to vote. Brave - American hero! Thank you John.

This is what Trump, the hypocritical draft-dodging coward, said about McCain in 2015:
He’s not a war hero.He’s a war hero because he was captured? I like people who weren’t captured.

keane2097 · 25-07-2017 2:35pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's because you're trying to find a rational basis for that support.

Think about it: more than half of Trump supporters believe that Donald Jr didn't meet with a Russian lawyer after he said he did.

That's cult-like self-delusion. That's Orwellian-grade doublethink. That's the sort of voter that can't be reasoned with.

And that's the problem facing the Democrats. For all the criticism of them for failing to listen to people, there is quite simply nothing rational for them to listen to. I've made the point before: the people have spoken, and what they have said is: "tell us what we want to hear, even if we know you're lying."

Was there something in that survey that suggested the people who believed DJ didn't have the meeting had all read the confession that he did so?

I would have thought (hoped) a lot of it would be down to being poorly informed rather than 'mental reservation'...

demfad · 25-07-2017 3:15pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's because you're trying to find a rational basis for that support.

Think about it: more than half of Trump supporters believe that Donald Jr didn't meet with a Russian lawyer after he said he did.

That's cult-like self-delusion. That's Orwellian-grade doublethink. That's the sort of voter that can't be reasoned with.

And that's the problem facing the Democrats. For all the criticism of them for failing to listen to people, there is quite simply nothing rational for them to listen to. I've made the point before: the people have spoken, and what they have said is: "tell us what we want to hear, even if we know you're lying."

The easiest way for Democrats to understand Trump supporters is to imagine what it would be like to witness the 'brainwashed' inside an autocracy.
To be more precise Dems are actually witnessing the converted in a burgeoning autocracy. Looking into the bubble from outside.

The enemies of autocracy are the media and these Trump supporters have been conditioned for almost a decade to think the media are liars in cahoots with the establishment. They have been told this by the tea-party, by religeous conservatives recently by social media propaganda.

IMO they don'y believe the story about Trump Jr because they assume that everything they hear from the media is a lie.

Reading @sarahkendzior on twitter..

The signs of autocracy are all there:

The GOP is on the brink of introducing vastly unpopular legislation in Trumpcare, overturning the will of the people. The Senate votes 98-2 on Russian sanctions. Trump will veto this.
Trump is expecting the AG Sessions to act as his personal attorney with the Mueller investigation.
The GOP should be scared ****less of 2018 but they are not and I agree that this is the scariest indicator. They are not afraid of 2018 at all.

Since the voting rights act was partially repealed they have got stuck into voter suppression, gerrymandering etc and this has been accelerated under TRump. Factor in Russian assistance etc. and it is entirely plausable.
2018 WILL NOT BE A FAIR ELECTION.

On the current trajectory the US is heading towards full autocracy.
Ivanka Trump as first female president? Worth a punt.

oscarBravo · 25-07-2017 3:22pm

demfad wrote: »

On the current trajectory the US is heading towards full autocracy.

There was a time I would have derided this as OTT scaremongering, but it's getting harder to argue against it.

If a chunk of the electorate has conditioned itself to believe unquestioningly in the rantings of an clearly insane autocrat, what's the remedy? Education, reason, rational persuasion: none of these things work. All the while, the opposition is being pilloried for not doing what it takes to take back control, mostly by people who are long on criticism and short on prescriptions.

I don't know how to fix America, I really don't. Its systems of checks and balances weren't designed to cope with an electorate that is this willing to lie to itself. Think about it: the entire design of the electoral college is purposely to prevent a populist demagogue coming to power. How's that working out?

I don't have the answers, and I'm troubled.

Professor Moriarty · 25-07-2017 3:28pm

demfad wrote: »

The easiest way for Democrats to understand Trump supporters is to imagine what it would be like to witness the 'brainwashed' inside an autocracy.
To be more precise Dems are actually witnessing the converted in a burgeoning autocracy. Looking into the bubble from outside.

The enemies of autocracy are the media and these Trump supporters have been conditioned for almost a decade to think the media are liars in cahoots with the establishment. They have been told this by the tea-party, by religeous conservatives recently by social media propaganda.

IMO they don'y believe the story about Trump Jr because they assume that everything they hear from the media is a lie.

Reading @sarahkendzior on twitter..

The signs of autocracy are all there:

The GOP is on the brink of introducing vastly unpopular legislation in Trumpcare, overturning the will of the people. The Senate votes 98-2 on Russian sanctions. Trump will veto this.
Trump is expecting the AG Sessions to act as his personal attorney with the Mueller investigation.
The GOP should be scared ****less of 2018 but they are not and I agree that this is the scariest indicator. They are not afraid of 2018 at all.

Since the voting rights act was partially repealed they have got stuck into voter suppression, gerrymandering etc and this has been accelerated under TRump. Factor in Russian assistance etc. and it is entirely plausable.
2018 WILL NOT BE A FAIR ELECTION.

On the current trajectory the US is heading towards full autocracy.
Ivanka Trump as first female president? Worth a punt.

Not the worst idea I've ever heard.

rossie1977 · 25-07-2017 3:58pm

The worse thing after all he has said and done over the past 18 months is the msm still believe he can be reasoned with. Only last night CNN were wondering what sanctions Trump would place on the Russians. I mean seriously there is no way anyone could be that naive.

The us institutions are crumbling six months in and he hasn't even used the war/mobilisation card yet

Quin_Dub · 25-07-2017 3:59pm

Senate Judiciary Committee issues subpoena for Manafort in Russia probe

Paul Manafort will meet with Senate investigators in the next 48 hours and has agreed to provide notes of the meeting at Trump Tower last year with a Russian lawyer, according to a person close to the investigation.

This person said Manafort would answer questions about the June 9, 2016, meeting, which was precipitated by the attorney, Natalia Veselnitskaya, offering to help Donald Trump’s campaign by providing dirt on Clinton. Manafort, who was Trump’s campaign chairman at the time, will also provide contemporaneous notes of the session, this person said.

Manafort attended the entire meeting and was one of three senior campaign officials there, along with Donald Trump’s son Donald Trump Jr. and son-in-law Jared Kushner, who left in the middle of the meeting.

So , he has notes on the meeting that he originally wasn't at and when it turned out he was at the meeting , it was nothing..

But he now has minutes of the meeting??

ancapailldorcha · 25-07-2017 4:03pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't know how to fix America, I really don't. Its systems of checks and balances weren't designed to cope with an electorate that is this willing to lie to itself. Think about it: the entire design of the electoral college is purposely to prevent a populist demagogue coming to power. How's that working out?

I don't have the answers, and I'm troubled.

I have one. There is a nurse I'm friends with on Facebook. She's hopelessly partisn (pro-Democrat) but she's posted no end of anecdotes as to the extent to which the residents of the nursing home she works in have allowed themselves to become brainwashed by Fox News. It's truly terrifying.

So, the solution? The only way the Trump faithful are going to shed scales form their eyes is by seeing their God fall. Not just that, mind but fall on his own without any help from forces external or internal or they'll just get the blame as per usual. It's like a child who refuses to wear a helmet when playing on his bicycle. The best that can be hoped for is that the knock on the head necessary to convince him of the importance of such protection doesn't do too much damage in the meantime.

Unfortunately, this is going to mean a lot of suffering for America's poor but given that so many of them voted for this man I struggle to sympathise. Over 20 million people will lose their health insurance which they only have through the ACA for example. As the old adage goes, it'll get worse before it gets better.

Leroy42 · 25-07-2017 4:08pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

The us institutions are crumbling six months in and he hasn't even used the war/mobilisation card yet

This is the really scary bit for me. As things get more complicated for Trump, and given his penchant for attack as a form of defence, does anybody really think that he won't launch a military campaign in order to distract from everyone else.

Like all autocratic leaders when all else fails find a common enemy to attack. Thus far is has been able to rely on HC and Mexicans

demfad · 25-07-2017 4:10pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have one. There is a nurse I'm friends with on Facebook. She's hopelessly partisn (pro-Democrat) but she's posted no end of anecdotes as to the extent to which the residents of the nursing home she works in have allowed themselves to become brainwashed by Fox News. It's truly terrifying.

So, the solution? The only way the Trump faithful are going to shed scales form their eyes is by seeing their God fall. Not just that, mind but fall on his own without any help from forces external or internal or they'll just get the blame as per usual. It's like a child who refuses to wear a helmet when playing on his bicycle. The best that can be hoped for is that the knock on the head necessary to convince him of the importance of such protection doesn't do too much damage in the meantime.

Unfortunately, this is going to mean a lot of suffering for America's poor but given that so many of them voted for this man I struggle to sympathise. Over 20 million people will lose their health insurance which they only have through the ACA for example. As the old adage goes, it'll get worse before it gets better.

I agree about things getting worse. The problem is there is no clear path towards things getting better. The GOP know Trumpcare will hurt many millions of their own supporters and could potential hurt the GOP in future elections. They know this, but they don't care. From a self survival viewpoint at least they should care, but they clearly don't. Why?

We have an autocratic oriented president who MUST secure full autocracy to save his (and families) bacon and we have a GOP behaving as if there will be no consequences for them in 2018....they will win elections they should lose. Those elections wont be fair: US on the brink of autocracy.

Check mate to Putin.

ancapailldorcha · 25-07-2017 4:18pm

demfad wrote: »

I agree about things getting worse. The problem is there is no clear path towards things getting better. The GOP know Trumpcare will hurt many millions of their own supporters and could potential hurt the GOP in future elections. They know this, but they don't care. From a self survival viewpoint at least they should care, but they clearly don't. Why?

We have an autocratic oriented president who MUST secure full autocracy to save his (and families) bacon and we have a GOP behaving as if there will be no consequences for them in 2018....they will win elections they should lose. Those elections wont be fair: US on the brink of autocracy.

Check mate to Putin.

That's a fair point. I think the best that can be hoped for is more Bernie Sanders-style campaigns whereby people crowdfund their own campaigns which will hopefully pressure the two main parties to stop fielding terrible people as candidates.

Trump voters on ACA-plans aren't going to believe the ACA isn't harming them until they lose their coverage. It's that simple, sadly. Stats, personalities, comedy, debate, facts have all failed in this regard.

Really Interested · 25-07-2017 4:21pm

I wonder, if as I believe it will come to pass the liberals are proven to be correct, in a decade how many people will admit to their support of Trump? Or will they just chant in unison "what about Hillary"

Professor Moriarty · 25-07-2017 4:25pm

Looks like Sessions is toast. I wonder how much say Trump will give the GOP on who his replacement should be? Not a lot is my guess.

Rjd2 · 25-07-2017 4:27pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is going to mean a lot of suffering for America's poor but given that so many of them voted for this man I struggle to sympathise. Over 20 million people will lose their health insurance which they only have through the ACA for example. As the old adage goes, it'll get worse before it gets better.

IIRC, the poorest voted for Clinton not Trump.

The media are at times content to spin the narrative "the revenge of the downtrodden" etc, but stuff like Brexit, Jezza and Corbyn drew plenty of support from those who may be unhappy with their current financial situation, but genuinely are not struggling to pay the bills etc.

Rjd2 · 25-07-2017 4:29pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Looks like Sessions is toast. I wonder how much say Trump will give the GOP on who his replacement should be? Not a lot is my guess.

Very odd from Trump if so. He was a competent politician and very much on the Trump bandwagon since day one, such a loss will infuriate the base as he was the biggest immigration hawk that Trump has.

Water John · 25-07-2017 4:31pm

Sessions seems to be digging in and refusing to take the hint. Doubt if Trump will sack him.
Unless there is fresh info.

Really Interested · 25-07-2017 4:32pm

Rjd2 wrote: »

IIRC, the poorest voted for Clinton not Trump.

The media are at times content to spin the narrative "the revenge of the downtrodden" etc, but stuff like Brexit, Jezza and Corbyn drew plenty of support from those who may be unhappy with their current financial situation, but genuinely are not struggling to pay the bills etc.

Its funny a friend of mine travels a lot back last year he called the Trump win, based on the fact that he usually travel first class or Business and all the rich yanks told him they voting Trump, when he heard that over and over he said Trump was going to win it, I said no way but he was right.

Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

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