Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Itssoeasy

everlast75 wrote: »

(Unless he is impeached)

Well yes unless that happens. But if it doesn't he's president until 2021.

StringerBell

everlast75 wrote: »

(Unless he is impeached)

Even if he is impeached there is no guarantee he is gone, sure Clinton was impeached!

Water John

Trump on getting his first vote through Congress gets a massive push back from various elements of his own side.
It's his own side has to put him out at the end of the day.
Omens are better tonight. Today was a bad day for Trump.

Ipse dixit

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Sadly the two are not mutually exclusive..

Without doubt , the Democrats are out of touch and need to build a better narrative.. No matter how utterly awful Trump is (and he is!!) they need something more than that..

However , it's perfectly reasonable to ask how you get through to people, who as in the example above don't believe the DT Jr met with the Russians even though he himself was the one that told everyone..

Even it the Democrats have a Damascene moment in the morning and suddenly hit on the perfect message , would these people listen or even believe it??

That's the challenge of the utterly polarised US right now.

There is no doubt that there is no 'getting through' to some people but studies have proven that this is generally the case for everyone. This is called the backfire effect. Once you believe in something it can be very difficult to change your belief and even more so in the age where you really can pick and choose how you want to verify your own viewpoints.

The reality is that in order to support a political party or a candidate you have to already have consciously or unconsciously ignored their flaws in order to continue to support them.

People vote for a number of reasons and some of those reasons are valid and some of those reasons are stupid. My point was that to just taint one side of the vote in order to support your own viewpoint is wrong, it's a massive generalisation and it's oversimplifying the problems and issues in America today.

Ipse dixit

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Whether you agree with John McCain or not on every issue. You can't deny he's an American hero. Some of his speech sounded a bit reflective of things he may have done wrong.

It depends on how you define a 'American hero'. Personally, I don't think the families of the missing POWs in Vietnam would consider John McCain an 'American hero'.

I don't think McCain is a bad person but he's been bought and swayed by just about everyone at this point. His own institute is funded by the Saudi's and he's about as clean as the Clinton's when it comes to corporate and government 'donations'.

Water John

I doubt if the Russians have bought him.

StringerBell

McCain was, is perhaps, but certainly was a genuine American hero. That status was guaranteed to him when he refused the early repatriation offer his daddy was able to sort out for him unless every man with him could go too.

I feel he lost his way a little in the Bush era, and then Palin was obviously a dark moment.

Some good reading out there for anyone interested in McCain, I would certainly consider him a genuine American Hero anyway. All the while disagreeing with a hell of a lot of his views

Itssoeasy

StringerBell wrote: »

McCain was, is perhaps, but certainly was a genuine American hero. That status was guaranteed to him when he refused the early repatriation offer his daddy was able to sort out for him unless every man with him could go too.

Yeah he could have easily got out but he refused unless every man captured before him was released. I think the only "info" he ever gave the north Vietnamese was the staring offensive line of the Green Bay packers. Well that's how the story goes anyway.

Itssoeasy

StringerBell wrote: »

McCain was, is perhaps, but certainly was a genuine American hero. That status was guaranteed to him when he refused the early repatriation offer his daddy was able to sort out for him unless every man with him could go too.

I feel he lost his way a little in the Bush era, and then Palin was obviously a dark moment.

Some good reading out there for anyone interested in McCain, I would certainly consider him a genuine American Hero anyway.

I'd say that made white hair go whiter having to try and reason with sarah palin. Also his concession speech in 2008 I taught was a very gracious one and I admire the way he stopped the booing from the crowd when he said he had phoned obama to congratulate him.

Professor Moriarty

StringerBell wrote: »

McCain was, is perhaps, but certainly was a genuine American hero. That status was guaranteed to him when he refused the early repatriation offer his daddy was able to sort out for him unless every man with him could go too.

I feel he lost his way a little in the Bush era, and then Palin was obviously a dark moment.

Some good reading out there for anyone interested in McCain, I would certainly consider him a genuine American Hero anyway.

When you look at him compared to the people around him in the Senate today, he is a giant. The draft-dodger Donald is slime by comparison to McCain.

aloyisious

MadYaker wrote: »

Was McCains speech worth watching?

I'd have to say yes, even though it included parts sounding similar to great speeches in the past. His push for bipartisanship within the chamber and telling outside influences to get lost was good [stop driving division inside the chamber by reading and believing self-promotional tweets]. That actually seems to have been taking root recently in the chamber.

I watched Charles Krauthammer on TV some days ago saying that McCain would be voting, even if he had to be carried into the senate on a stretcher. I didn't believe him and was proven wrong.

Now the next thing for the US to face is whether Don fires Sessions before the Senate get to the next stage debate on healthcare and cause a row there he can't distract-tweet his way out of, or whether he restrains his urges until the Senate does what he seems to want.

ECO_Mental

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

StringerBell wrote: »

McCain was, is perhaps, but certainly was a genuine American hero. That status was guaranteed to him when he refused the early repatriation offer his daddy was able to sort out for him unless every man with him could go too.

I feel he lost his way a little in the Bush era, and then Palin was obviously a dark moment.

Some good reading out there for anyone interested in McCain, I would certainly consider him a genuine American Hero anyway.

When you look at him compared to the people around him in the Senate today, he is a giant. The draft-dodger Donald is slime by comparison to McCain.

Tru dat...it is truly disgusting the trumpets turned on him and for him self saying he's not a hero because he got captured. Trump really shamed himself there and he dodged the draft because of a heel spur. I would love to see trump spend a couple of years in the Hanoi Hilton....although I still think he might get a few night in one of them five star "Super Max" establishments the dept of corrections run I'm sure the lads from MS13 would have some advice on how to build his wall

Leroy42

Can someone explain what actually happened in terms of healthcare today.

Last week GOP hadn't got enough votes to repeal n replace and today they managed to get those votes but only to have a debate?

But since the GOP have the majority aren't they really just debating themselves?

But it is still progress isn't it for Trump?

aloyisious

Leroy42 wrote: »

Can someone explain what actually happened in terms of healthcare today.

Last week GOP hadn't got enough votes to repeal n replace and today they managed to get those votes but only to have a debate?

But since the GOP have the majority aren't they really just debating themselves?

But it is still progress isn't it for Trump?

In so far as it's NOT yet a direct and definite NO from the GOP part of the Senate to Don on what he claims is a good healthcare move, yes it is what he would call progress. That would [IMO] be what a luddite would want. Personally I think his motivation is solely based on taxation, he wants as much tax relief for US businesses as possible as that will suit him i the long run. Before he was elected, he said he was the expert on taxation that he wrote the book.

Hazys

Senators Collins (D) and Reed (R) got caught talking on an open mic about how crazy and incompetent Trump is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoIOu-PSZEk

ECO_Mental

Seriously is it my imagination but over the last week or two has he gotten more mentally unstable? He is living in another universe....i also think he is incredibly stupid it baffles me how stupid this man is, but I don't think he can help himself either, mentally it's not in him.

For example, He goes to the boy scout jamboree and rants and raves about the election and the press and some property developer in New York in the 70s all this to kids who are 13 14 15 !!!!! This was a great opportunity for him, a good news story say how great the scouts are say that some of his cabinet were eagle scouts you are all an inspiration. But no it was all about HIM. This was an easy win.

Another reason why I think he is crazy this whole Russian, Muller investigation is happening there is NOTHING he can do about it now. The game is up, a smart man would realise this (even if they knows they are wrong)and look like they are cooperating. The FBI will get to the bottom of this, if they think you are hiding something they will look into it even more closely. Trump on the other hand wants to fire everybody that is on the case it's laughable really, his lawyers must be pulling their hair out, but seeing them on TV I think he only hire people who say yes to him.

Anyway I'm here on my deck in the Loire Valley have a bottle or two of wine enjoying the car crash of presidency that Comrad Trumpski is. Hope a lot of people go down with him, there is a lot...............

Professor Moriarty

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Seriously is it my imagination but over the last week or two has he gotten more mentally unstable? He is living in another universe....i also think he is incredibly stupid it baffles me how stupid this man is, but I don't think he can help himself either, mentally it's not in him.

For example, He goes to the boy scout jamboree and rants and raves about the election and the press and some property developer in New York in the 70s all this to kids who are 13 14 15 !!!!! This was a great opportunity for him, a good news story say how great the scouts are say that some of his cabinet were eagle scouts you are all an inspiration. But no it was all about HIM. This was an easy win.

Another reason why I think he is crazy this whole Russian, Muller investigation is happening there is NOTHING he can do about it now. The game is up, a smart man would realise this (even if they knows they are wrong)and look like they are cooperating. The FBI will get to the bottom of this, if they think you are hiding something they will look into it even more closely. Trump on the other hand wants to fire everybody that is on the case it's laughable really, his lawyers must be pulling their hair out, but seeing them on TV I think he only hire people who say yes to him.

Anyway I'm here on my deck in the Loire Valley have a bottle or two of wine enjoying the car crash of presidency that Comrad Trumpski is. Hope a lot of people go down with him, there is a lot...............

Let them eat cake.

aloyisious

ECO_Mental wrote: »

for example, He goes to the boy scout jamboree and rants and raves about the election and the press and some property developer in New York in the 70s all this to kids who are 13 14 15 !!!!! This was a great opportunity for him, a good news story say how great the scouts are say that some of his cabinet were eagle scouts you are all an inspiration. But no it was all about HIM. This was an easy win.

Anyway I'm here on my deck in the Loire Valley have a bottle or two of wine enjoying the car crash of presidency that Comrad Trumpski is. Hope a lot of people go down with him, there is a lot...............

Reportedly he broke with an 80 year tradition by not bringing politics up at the BSOA jamborees In the clip shown on Fox, he even said in the recording of his speech there that he wouldn't bring up politics, then went on to attack Hillary and Jeff. He was cheeky enough to posit that none of the majors would cover the item. knowing his speech would ensure they would. It seems that a lot of scouts parents are tee'd off with him as a result of politicizing scouting. It was a captive audience.

I'm beginning to think all this "Jeff is this, is that" is a distraction from what's happening internally in the WH, staff-wise with the new head of Comms there saying he would fire anyone involved in leaking. I presume he can only do that to his own staffers and that his reported previous connection to Don means he'x aiming at other WH senior staffers and section heads.

While John McCain came in and put in the 50th vote to enable the GOP pass the threshold needed to have a debate, he made it clear he wouldn't be voting YES for the bill to be debated [as it presently exists] so that makes for 47 at most GOP-wise. It might be worthwhile considering what would happen if he couldn't make a voting session like today's for health reasons. I assume the Dems wouldn't miss achieving a target figure of 50 then.

castletownman

**** going down in Ohio. Man displaying a TRUMP MUST GO placard forcibly removed by the police.

Of course POTUS is there encouraging the crowd during it all, lapping it up.

ECO_Mental

2017/07/25/anthony-scaramucci-changes-white-house-communications-office-240928?lo=ap_a1

Apparently firing everybody will stop the leaks...now let me work through this one. I'm a WH staffer working my balls off then I get sacked by some flashy blow-in tire sales man, what is my next move!????Mmmmmm

I know I'll sit at home watching Downtown Abbey and say nothing.

ECO_Mental

SNL I are going to have a field day with the Muuch.......

When are they back?

captbarnacles

Can't agree with the credit being given to John McCain as his pattern under Trump is to criticize, moan, complain and then vote on party lines for whatever is on the table. He is no doubt an American Hero but he lost most of my respect when he caved on torture when Bush was in power and the rest of it since.

Leroy42

captbarnacles wrote: »

Can't agree with the credit being given to John McCain as his pattern under Trump is to criticize, moan, complain and then vote on party lines for whatever is on the table. He is no doubt an American Hero but he lost most of my respect when he caved on torture when Bush was in power and the rest of it since.

I would agree with this. I cannot even begin to imagine how heroic he was during war.

But that is different to the position he now finds himself in.

How can you square a man that refused his own release in order to look after others, to a man that votes to move on a bill that he doesn't even agree with? How does he justify putting these millions of americans at potential risk of losing whatever healthcare they do have without any knowledge of what, if anything, is going to replace it? They have had 7 years to come up with something but are now going to land it after 2 days of debate?

It perfectly fine for him to want to get rid of ACA, that is his opinion, but to allow this step without knowing what will replace it, but anything he does know will be worse, that is not the sign of a hero.

That does not diminish his hero status from the war. But you also need to recognise that he has been cowardly in this instance

Professor Moriarty

Leroy42 wrote: »

I would agree with this. I cannot even begin to imagine how heroic he was during war.

But that is different to the position he now finds himself in.

How can you square a man that refused his own release in order to look after others, to a man that votes to move on a bill that he doesn't even agree with? How does he justify putting these millions of americans at potential risk of losing whatever healthcare they do have without any knowledge of what, if anything, is going to replace it? They have had 7 years to come up with something but are now going to land it after 2 days of debate?

It perfectly fine for him to want to get rid of ACA, that is his opinion, but to allow this step without knowing what will replace it, but anything he does know will be worse, that is not the sign of a hero.

That does not diminish his hero status from the war. But you also need to recognise that he has been cowardly in this instance

One might not agree with some oF his principles but he is a man of principle. In this instance, my understanding is that he is voting for a debate on the issue but has made it clear that he won't vote for the current proposal. That plus his swipe at populism seems principled to me.

Leroy42

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

One might not agree with some oF his principles but he is a man of principle. In this instance, my understanding is that he is voting for a debate on the issue but has made it clear that he won't vote for the current proposal. That plus his swipe at populism seems principled to me.

Yes I see the point, but we all know what the debate is really about. It is about trying to ram home the legislation. Two days to debate national healthcare? After they could not agree after 7 years?

He could have stayed away, or voted no. Forced the GOP to go back and properly consider it, instead he has turned up to give them the vote they needed to continue with this rush to secure something, anything.

To be seen to get something done. This is clearly more about the GOP than it is about healthcare. They will do anything to get a bill passed, so they can say they got rid of ACA. Doesn't even matter what they pass, something. It will be at least 2 years before anything actually happens, enough to get them through 2018 elections.

That is all McCain is thinking about. The only principle he is standing on is the principle of the GOP

aloyisious

Looking at yesterday's vote result where Mike had to cast his vote to get the "move to debate" bill over the line, I wondered at the present party senate seat numbers. The Republicans have 52 seats, 46 Democrats and 2 independents. Two GOP members voted against it. Susan Collins, Maine, and Lisa Murkowski, Alaska. Just imagine what Mitch, Don & Mike were thinking about them. Given how there seem to be even more GOP senators likely to vote NO in the next few debates on the "scrap ACA" move within the GOP officially, I reckon Mitch, Don and Mike will be losing more hair.

So on to the breakdown of seats, Wiki has this:

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZk7zWyabVAhVlIsAKHcSVB7gQFgglMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCurrent_members_of_the_United_States_Senate&usg=AFQjCNGxqnsC9J0lNQ8nRi5N4aiarlIAmw -

Affiliation Members - Republican Party 52 ... Democratic Party 46 ... Independent 2[a] ... Total 100..............

CNN.com has a slightly different read in the following link, that the breakdown of the party vote was GOPs who supported 50, GOPs who opposed 2, Democrats who opposed 48, tie-breaking vote, VP Mike Pence. It seems CNN sees the two independents as nominals.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiCgojfy6bVAhUqC8AKHTl6BZcQFghAMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2017%2F07%2F25%2Fpolitics%2Fvote-tally-senate-health-care%2Findex.html&usg=AFQjCNGp6OjfqoS1Jqc9heQCSi8ETu5Pig

Professor Moriarty

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes I see the point, but we all know what the debate is really about. It is about trying to ram home the legislation. Two days to debate national healthcare? After they could not agree after 7 years?

He could have stayed away, or voted no. Forced the GOP to go back and properly consider it, instead he has turned up to give them the vote they needed to continue with this rush to secure something, anything.

To be seen to get something done. This is clearly more about the GOP than it is about healthcare. They will do anything to get a bill passed, so they can say they got rid of ACA. Doesn't even matter what they pass, something. It will be at least 2 years before anything actually happens, enough to get them through 2018 elections.

That is all McCain is thinking about. The only principle he is standing on is the principle of the GOP

I've no doubt that his principles clash at times. That would be the nature of politics and at times the principle of loyalty to party might supersede other principles. That doesn't mean that he isn't a principled man. Everything I've read about him indicates that he is principled. That's a rare thing in the GOP where greed and elitism 'trump' principle.

Leroy42

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I've no doubt that his principles clash at times. That would be the nature of politics and at times the principle of loyalty to party might supersede other principles. That doesn't mean that he isn't a principled man. Everything I've read about him indicates that he is principled. That's a rare thing in the GOP where greed and elitism 'trump' principle.

I never said he wasn't principled.

But on this particular occasion he has allowed his loyalty to GOP to override his principles. How he can vote through this, knowing that this is nothing more that a ruse to try to force the legislation through when the other options have failed?

I am sure he has stood up plenty of times (I recall him standing up in town hall debates when voters tried to label Obama as evil or an Arab etc) but that doesn't absolve him of this instance. BTW, he is not the only one.

demfad

Part of the push by new Press sec. Scarracmucci is to let Trump be Trump.
What this means is that he can now say whatever he wants to say, THEY DONT FEAR media or political consequence and it is another red flag indicator that the transition to autocracy has greatly accelerated.

They can now take bigger bolder steps. They have succeeded in the little ones, the pattern is set. They will go big. The emperor will walk around naked and they will see who dares say a word. Most will be cowed. The people who know how to go along to get along when it's time to put up or shut up will almost invariably shut up. Those who are not will be labelled as enemies and dealt with probably by those already cowed.

I am starting to understand why Trump and McConnell must pass a MASSIVELY UNPOPULAR HEALTHCARE BILL.

Once the GOP Congress votes to take away health care they are 100% committed to not allowing a fair election to happen again. They will see this as their only way forward. The alternative is the destruction of the Republican party.

The passing of this Bill will ensure GOP support for a Trump autocracy.

Professor Moriarty

Leroy42 wrote: »

I never said he wasn't principled.

But on this particular occasion he has allowed his loyalty to GOP to override his principles. How he can vote through this, knowing that this is nothing more that a ruse to try to force the legislation through when the other options have failed?

I am sure he has stood up plenty of times (I recall him standing up in town hall debates when voters tried to label Obama as evil or an Arab etc) but that doesn't absolve him of this instance. BTW, he is not the only one.

My reading of his position (and I'm open to correction) is that he voted for a debate on the matter - possibly because he thought it was the democratic thing to do and to support his party - but that he intends voting against the proposed legislation. Conscience is a funny thing!

Leroy42

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

My reading of his position (and I'm open to correction) is that he voted for a debate on the matter - possibly because he thought it was the democratic thing to do and to support his party - but that he intends voting against the proposed legislation. Conscience is a funny thing!

Yeah, that a valid reading of it alright.

I tend to see it a big more cynically but I cannot say that you are incorrect in that view.

I guess we will see what happens when the real vote comes.

Really Interested

Leroy42 wrote: »

I never said he wasn't principled.

But on this particular occasion he has allowed his loyalty to GOP to override his principles. How he can vote through this, knowing that this is nothing more that a ruse to try to force the legislation through when the other options have failed?

I am sure he has stood up plenty of times (I recall him standing up in town hall debates when voters tried to label Obama as evil or an Arab etc) but that doesn't absolve him of this instance. BTW, he is not the only one.

First I am against this bill, but i would if I was in his shoes done exactly the same thing. Vote to debate the bill if no amendments he has said he will vote no. For the president to win a procedural vote by casting vote is embarrassing, but if the GOP lose the vote after debate will possibly kill the repeal legislation dead.

captbarnacles

Really Interested wrote: »

First I am against this bill, but i would if I was in his shoes done exactly the same thing. Vote to debate the bill if no amendments he has said he will vote no. For the president to win a procedural vote by casting vote is embarrassing, but if the GOP lose the vote after debate will possibly kill the repeal legislation dead.

Nothing we have seen from McCain so far points towards him actually voting no. He will say he is "disturbed' and 'troubled' but he will vote yes on whatever the final bill contains.

Leroy42

Part of my agrees with a post earlier in the thread that I wish the GOP would get this over the line. People voted for both Trump and the GOP knowing exactly their position on this. This is not a surprise. It is hard to feel any sympathy when it seems to be what the majority of the country want.

Maybe the country needs to feel the effects of this to fully understand that ACA is not the monster it is painted out to be. Of course I feel sorry for anyone who voted for Dems or HC who may suffer because of it but it may make those people opposed to it more determined to actually make a difference.

It seems to me, based on Trump and Brexit and the dalliance with Le Pen etc in France, that voters are taking a 'no responsibility' view on their input. That they can vote, or not, and not really have to properly consider the effects.

Maybe 20+ odd millions losing healthcare will finally wake people up to the reality that voting certain ways carries consequences.

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

Part of my agrees with a post earlier in the thread that I wish the GOP would get this over the line. People voted for both Trump and the GOP knowing exactly their position on this. This is not a surprise. It is hard to feel any sympathy when it seems to be what the majority of the country want.

Maybe the country needs to feel the effects of this to fully understand that ACA is not the monster it is painted out to be. Of course I feel sorry for anyone who voted for Dems or HC who may suffer because of it but it may make those people opposed to it more determined to actually make a difference.

It seems to me, based on Trump and Brexit and the dalliance with Le Pen etc in France, that voters are taking a 'no responsibility' view on their input. That they can vote, or not, and not really have to properly consider the effects.

Maybe 20+ odd millions losing healthcare will finally wake people up to the reality that voting certain ways carries consequences.

GOP politicians are not stupid. They know the consequences for them as you or I do. This is why I firmly believe that the 2018 elections will not be fair.

demfad wrote: »

Part of the push by new Press sec. Scarracmucci is to let Trump be Trump.
What this means is that he can now say whatever he wants to say, THEY DONT FEAR media or political consequence and it is another red flag indicator that the transition to autocracy has greatly accelerated.

They can now take bigger bolder steps. They have succeeded in the little ones, the pattern is set. They will go big. The emperor will walk around naked and they will see who dares say a word. Most will be cowed. The people who know how to go along to get along when it's time to put up or shut up will almost invariably shut up. Those who are not will be labelled as enemies and dealt with probably by those already cowed.

I am starting to understand why Trump and McConnell must pass a MASSIVELY UNPOPULAR HEALTHCARE BILL.

Once the GOP Congress votes to take away health care they are 100% committed to not allowing a fair election to happen again. They will see this as their only way forward. The alternative is the destruction of the Republican party.

The passing of this Bill will ensure GOP support for a Trump autocracy.

Zubeneschamali

demfad wrote: »

Part of the push by new Press sec. Scarracmucci is to let Trump be Trump.
What this means is that he can now say whatever he wants to say, THEY DONT FEAR media or political consequence and it is another red flag indicator that the transition to autocracy has greatly accelerated.

You have to allow for the possibility that they don't fear consequences because they are a clown crew who never expected to be in the White House in the first place, are utterly unqualified and have no idea what they are doing or what the consequences are likely to be.

Trump is not a mastermind taking over the US, he is a moron who is so far out of his depth it would be sad if it weren't so serious.

demfad

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You have to allow for the possibility that they don't fear consequences because they are a clown crew who never expected to be in the White House in the first place, are utterly unqualified and have no idea what they are doing or what the consequences are likely to be.

Trump is not a mastermind taking over the US, he is a moron who is so far out of his depth it would be sad if it weren't so serious.

I am talking about the US Republican representatives and Senators in congress who will pass the deeply unpopular bill and should be signing their own death warrant in 2018/2020 by doing so. The way out is to accelerate the existing practices of gerrymandering, cross checking, big data interference, more Russian collusion even vote hacking.. I.e ensure a Republican win through an unfair election.

Re Trump's strategy for autocracy: It is being overseen by smarter people than him: some of them are US citizens and some are not.

Leroy42

demfad wrote: »

I am talking about the US Republican representatives and Senators in congress who will pass the deeply unpopular bill and should be signing their own death warrant in 2018/2020 by doing so. The way out is to accelerate the existing practices of gerrymandering, cross checking, big data interference, more Russian collusion even vote hacking.. I.e ensure a Republican win through an unfair election.

Re Trump's strategy for autocracy: It is being overseen by smarter people than him: some of them are US citizens and some are not.

I think you are underestimating the hatred of all things Obama and therefore Obamacare. If this was just a discussion on the ACA then no doubt the GOP would fear a backlash, but they very smartly labled the ACA from the off as Obamacare, instantly getting a large portion of the electorate on their side without having to do a thing.

GOP won't need to carry out any voter fraud etc, they know that they can count on 40%+ of voters to vote for them no matter what they do/say. It then just comes down to who can mobilise more of their vote. There is roughly 50% of voters that didn't bother voting the last time.

The Dems, partly due to their being little detail of the ACHA, are not putting the same emphasis on calling this Trumpcare. They are allowing Trump to claim all the credit without having to deal with any consequences. In Trumps tweets you can clearly see that a win will be because of him, a defeat is all down to the GOP.

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think you are underestimating the hatred of all things Obama and therefore Obamacare. If this was just a discussion on the ACA then no doubt the GOP would fear a backlash, but they very smartly labled the ACA from the off as Obamacare, instantly getting a large portion of the electorate on their side without having to do a thing.

GOP won't need to carry out any voter fraud etc, they know that they can count on 40%+ of voters to vote for them no matter what they do/say. It then just comes down to who can mobilise more of their vote. There is roughly 50% of voters that didn't bother voting the last time.

The Dems, partly due to their being little detail of the ACHA, are not putting the same emphasis on calling this Trumpcare. They are allowing Trump to claim all the credit without having to deal with any consequences. In Trumps tweets you can clearly see that a win will be because of him, a defeat is all down to the GOP.

The bill is MASSIVELY unpopular among all the electorate. AHCA (Obamacare) is far more popular now than before it's attempted repeal and/or replace.

Really Interested

captbarnacles wrote: »

Nothing we have seen from McCain so far points towards him actually voting no. He will say he is "disturbed' and 'troubled' but he will vote yes on whatever the final bill contains.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/25/16027528/john-mccain-speech-health-bill-yes-vote
"John McCain gives stirring speech denouncing the health bill he just voted to advance"

"His said his vote Tuesday was merely a vote “to allow debate to continue and amendments to be offered,” and claimed he “will not vote for this bill as it is today.”"

Zubeneschamali

demfad wrote: »

I am talking about the US Republican representatives and Senators in congress who will pass the deeply unpopular bill and should be signing their own death warrant in 2018/2020 by doing so.

This has been their stated policy for 8 years now, destroy Obamacare. They have been elected on that mandate. They are doing exactly what they were elected to do.

I actually like that they are going to do what they promised to do even though it will wipe them out at the next election. What is the point of winning elections if you are too fond of your seat to enact your policy promises?

Of course I think it is a very bad policy, but that is the fault of the people who elected them.

rossie1977

ACA approval rating currently sits at 50% whereas the gop plan is as low as 12% in some places

Zubeneschamali

Really Interested wrote: »

"His said his vote Tuesday was merely a vote “to allow debate to continue and amendments to be offered,” and claimed he “will not vote for this bill as it is today.”"

As many people have pointed out, McCain maintains his maverick image by bellyaching about Republican policy and then voting for it while making a sour face.

He still votes for it, and he will vote for this unless so many Rs defect that his vote makes no difference.

wes

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Of course I think it is a very bad policy, but that is the fault of the people who elected them.

People need to understand that there vote has consequences. The way some in the US are going on, you would think none of them voted Trump/Republican. If they voted for them and they lose there health care, then that son them and no one else.

For those who didn't vote for them (if they didn't bother to vote at all, then there opinion is irrelevant), I do feel sorry for them, as there fellow country men, couldn't see beyond there blind hatred of the other party, Women and minorities and voted for this calamity.

IMHO, its only a matter of time, before the Republicans repeal the ACA and those who voted for them, will only have themselves to blame, and imo they deserve 0 sympathy.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

As many people have pointed out, McCain maintains his maverick image by bellyaching about Republican policy and then voting for it while making a sour face.

He still votes for it, and he will vote for this unless so many Rs defect that his vote makes no difference.

Perhaps. Some of McCain's quotes from yesterday:


“We are not the president’s subordinates. We are his equals,”

"We’ve tried to do this by coming up with a proposal behind closed doors in consultation with the administration, then springing it on skeptical members, trying to convince them it’s better than nothing, asking us to swallow our doubts and force it past a unified opposition,"

"I don’t think that is going to work in the end. And it probably shouldn’t,"

“Stop listening to the bombastic loudmouths on the radio, television, and internet. To hell with them. They don't want anything done for the public good.”

"I will not vote for this bill as it is today. It's a shell of a bill right now. We all know that. I have changes urged by my state governor that will have to be included for my support of final passage of any bill."


Nothing definitive either way. We'll see.

demfad

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This has been their stated policy for 8 years now, destroy Obamacare. They have been elected on that mandate. They are doing exactly what they were elected to do.

I actually like that they are going to do what they promised to do even though it will wipe them out at the next election. What is the point of winning elections if you are too fond of your seat to enact your policy promises?

Of course I think it is a very bad policy, but that is the fault of the people who elected them.

The public seems to have changed it's mind on Obamacare possibly realising that it's the same as Obamacare, some not believing that Trump would actually go through with it.

"What is the point of winning elections if you are too fond of your seat to enact your policy promises?"

For Republicans it's: 'What's the point of enacting a policy that guarantees you have no chance a seat?'

No point unless you can guarantee your seat also. Which is what an unfair election in 2018/20 will do.

They have already done this by abusing the Voting rights act repeal to shut millions out of the last election particularly in key states.

Leroy42

Its true that ACHA has very low approval, but like all things in US politics it will be a binary decision. So for all the GOP supporters, whilst they may not like the bill it is far better (in their eyes) than having to deal with Obamacare.

Just look at the vote for Trump. It would appear that a large portion voted for Trump on the basis that anything was better than HC. Even now, many Trump voters console themselves that Trump is still the better option regardless of all that has come out about him and his lack of any actual results.

It is therefore incumbent on the Dems to find a way to funnel that disenchantment over the bill into votes for their candidates.

I fear that the bipartisan nature of the voters makes that almost impossible. And the GOP know this. That is why they are pushing ahead. They want to get rid of ACA because it was Obama that lead it and despite their attempts got it through. That is a defeat and one they want to erase. Second, there are tax breaks available to their key donors involved. You can be sure that whatever is in the final bill, the health insurance companies won't be doing any worse out of this. 3rd, they promised for 7 years to RnReplace, and have now been found to have had no plan. Therefore delivering anything at all is better than nothing.

Quin_Dub

So it looks like McCain did exactly as some predicted and voted for Repeal

According to Fox News , the 1st attempt at repeal was voted down 57-43 late last night..

With 9 GOP Senators voting against , McCain not listed among them...

In the failed vote Tuesday night, GOP foes reportedly included Sens. Susan Collins, Bob Corker, Tom Cotton, Lindsey Graham, Dean Heller, Mike Lee, Jerry Moran, Lisa Murkowski and Rand Paul.

Leroy42

This morning Trump has just tweeted that the US military will no longer accept or allow transgender individuals to serve in any capacity.

I mean, apart for whatever position you have on this topic, it is utterly bizarre that this is what is is working on at the moment. I mean, is this really one of the top agenda points?

Pelvis

WTF?