Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

wes

Leroy42 wrote: »

This morning Trump has just tweeted that the US military will no longer accept of allow transgender individuals to serve in any capacity.

I mean, apart for whatever position you have on this topic, it is utterly bizarre that this is what is is working on at the moment. I mean, is this really one of the top agenda points?

Its all about hatred for them. Its not about poverty or whatever excuses people come up with. Its resentment and hatred that we are dealing with here. There is no coherent ideology just hate. We need to stop being politically correct about Trump supporters.

dfx-

captbarnacles wrote: »

Nothing we have seen from McCain so far points towards him actually voting no. He will say he is "disturbed' and 'troubled' but he will vote yes on whatever the final bill contains.

It's also very easy to offer non substantial amendments to the bill which mean the bill is still as bad but not exactly what was it was yesterday. Allowing him to vote yes.

Collins seems to be a much better example of governing by just not voting and not being on Twitter/TV so much.

Quin_Dub

Leroy42 wrote: »

This morning Trump has just tweeted that the US military will no longer accept of allow transgender individuals to serve in any capacity.

I mean, apart for whatever position you have on this topic, it is utterly bizarre that this is what is is working on at the moment. I mean, is this really one of the top agenda points?

Pelvis wrote: »

WTF?

So the reason given is that Transgenders cause "disruption and tremendous medical costs" and deflect the military being focused on "decisive and overwhelming victory"

....right so , that clears that up then.

one armed dwarf

If being transgender is such a burden to the military then that's setting a scary precedent for these 'religious liberty' laws that have been rumoured. Presumably an employer can then go ahead and say "your transgenderism is just too expensive".

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

This morning Trump has just tweeted that the US military will no longer accept of allow transgender individuals to serve in any capacity.

I mean, apart for whatever position you have on this topic, it is utterly bizarre that this is what is is working on at the moment. I mean, is this really one of the top agenda points?

NO. It's a big point for the Council for National Policy who are religeous Statists. They control the evangelical vote (up to 24% US vote not counting devout Catholics) and have Bannon, Pence, DeVos and many others deep in their admin amongst their number. Kelly Anne Conway is on their executive.

Trump will keep the support of these people as long as he keeps the many promises he made to them.

Really Interested

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So the reason given is that Transgenders cause "disruption and tremendous medical costs" and deflect the military being focused on "decisive and overwhelming victory"

....right so , that clears that up then.

But his vocal LGBT supporters will just swallow this like they do everything else he spews.

demfad

Really Interested wrote: »

But his vocal LGBT supporters will just swallow this like they do everything else he spews.

He doesnt have many vocal supporters from that demo. 'Milo' the most vocal was on the payroll of Robert Mercer for his speech apparences.

Really Interested

demfad wrote: »

He doesnt have many vocal supporters from that demo. 'Milo' the most vocal was on the payroll of Robert Mercer for his speech apparences.

Many people on here on Politics.ie are vocal LGBT supporters and Trump supporters.

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/12/532588488/as-pride-marches-take-resistance-stance-where-do-lgbt-trump-supporters-fit-in

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/trump-welcomes-in-republican-lgbt-advocates/article/2629586

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/26/caitlyn-jenner-defends-her-vote-for-donald-trump-im-not-a-one-issue-voter/

seamus

The transgender issue is just a hat tip to the religious extremists pulling Trump's strings.

The disruption and cost issue is just an excuse that his flag-waving sycophants will buy. Compared against the US defence budget of over half a trillion dollars, the cost of 0.3%* of your armed forces being transgender is practically zero.

*The estimated level of transgender individuals in any given population

Leroy42

I wonder if it is even legally possible to discriminate on that basis. I mean it's one thing to say they can or can't use certain toilets, but to bar them from the entire military?

By putting out the reasons as being costs and disprution, straight away that will be the focus of any court case. They will need to be able to back those claims up

Surely it goes completely against the constitution?

jooksavage

Leroy42 wrote: »

Surely it goes completely against the constitution?

Add it to list.

Another example of just how much bulls*** was out there about Ivanka and Jared's supposedly moderating influence when it comes to things like LGBT rights.

demfad

Really Interested wrote: »

Many people on here on Politics.ie are vocal LGBT supporters and Trump supporters.

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/12/532588488/as-pride-marches-take-resistance-stance-where-do-lgbt-trump-supporters-fit-in

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/trump-welcomes-in-republican-lgbt-advocates/article/2629586

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/26/caitlyn-jenner-defends-her-vote-for-donald-trump-im-not-a-one-issue-voter/

I didn't say he didn't have ANY LGBT supporters or those who claim they are: I said their support would be relatively tiny.

Black females voted against him by 94%. I imagine this might be a good indicator.

Rjd2

seamus wrote: »

The transgender issue is just a hat tip to the religious extremists pulling Trump's strings.



*The estimated level of transgender individuals in any given population

Its also something to appease the Breitbart element of his support so he can hammer Sessions yet again. His recent twitter storm is so cynical.

PopePalpatine

Rjd2 wrote: »

Its also something to appease the Breitbart element of his support so he can hammer Sessions yet again. His recent twitter storm is so cynical.

Yep, to the alt-right transgenderism epitomises the "cultural Bolshevik Marxist" bogeyman - or should that just be "-person"? - of the erosion of their male ideal which they've based on a bastardised view of wolf societies.

jooksavage

Rjd2 wrote: »

Its also something to appease the Breitbart element of his support so he can hammer Sessions yet again. His recent twitter storm is so cynical.

It's also creating a nice little distraction while the senate's health debate meanders to a disastrous piece of legislation.

20Cent

From Twitter.

Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs. 12:31 PM - 14 Jun 2016



Maybe he just doesn't know what the T stands for.
Could see this one being rejected by the courts as well.

Water John

He's sending an ultra right Tea Party guy,, anti gay rights, back to Holland as ambassador. He'll be very welcome.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/26/gay-rights-opponent-picked-ambassador-netherlands-donald-trump-pete-hoekstra

strandroad

20Cent wrote: »

From Twitter.

Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs. 12:31 PM - 14 Jun 2016



Maybe he just doesn't know what the T stands for.
Could see this one being rejected by the courts as well.

It will be a prolonged court battle which they'll use for deflection. Case in point: Muslim ban.

Hermy

Great news for transgender folk.

Why anyone would want to serve in the US military is beyond me.

The horrors that soldiers in battle must endure don't bare thinking about.

strandroad

Hermy wrote: »

Great news for transgender folk.

Why anyone would want to serve in the US military is beyond me.

The horrors that soldiers in battle must endure don't bare thinking about.

Many are probably in administration, facilities etc. Good medical coverage is likely to be a factor.

Manic Moran

Actually, I suspect Mattis is behind this one. I note that this transgender decision came out the same day as this one. http://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/07/25/mattis-get-unnecessary-training-off-warfighters-backs/

The fine print in the news today is that it is a short-term ban, pending completion of further analysis, both of 'is this really a good idea' and 'if we're going to do this, how best to do it?" which had long been requested by the branches. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/06/13/transgender-troops-defense-secretary-jim-mattis-army-marine-corps/102822598/

One doesn't wave an administrative wand and say "you are in", we had to go down to the level of "what grooming standards regulations apply to a person who identifies as the other gender, vs has been authorized gender reassignment treatment, vs has complete treatment, vs has had the paperwork completed? What if the treatment is approved by a civilian vs military doctor?" For the sake of that minimal amount of people, is it worth our time? We already have more training on our plate than there are hours in the day. (I'm serious, we need about 450 days in the training calendar to fit everything in, it's a known problem). Some of it is mandated by congress, we get quarterly "resiliency" training, EO, POSH, suicide awareness, etc, etc. Training to kill people (you know, our job) has no mandatory requirement, and there is quite some bitterness about it in the force. This has all led to something of a backlash: If it does not help us in our primary job, why are we doing it? We are currently combing the units for non-deployables, people who, maybe not due to any fault of their own, are no longer in a position to deploy into combat. Sucks to be them, but you can see the priority. I suspect this transgender thing is part of that bigger picture.

I have no idea what the policies are in, say, the French or British militaries, but what if the US branches come back at the end of their assessment and say "this isn't worth it?"

Itssoeasy

When you have shows on Fox News telling you you're wrong about how you're going about the Jeff sessions isssue then you know you are wrong.

Professor Moriarty

Ok, let's see. Mexican voters, Muslim voters, voters without healthcare, LGBT voters...... Who's next?

Really Interested

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ok, let's see. Mexican voters, Muslim voters, voters without healthcare, LGBT voters...... Who's next?

Funny thing he has the Christian vote lol!

First they came for the Mexicans, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Mexican.
Then they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Muslim.
Then they came for the LGBT, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a LGBT.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Sonics2k

20Cent wrote: »

From Twitter.

Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs. 12:31 PM - 14 Jun 2016



Maybe he just doesn't know what the T stands for.
Could see this one being rejected by the courts as well.

Direct link to the Tweet here, the massive bellend.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742771576039460864

BabyCheeses

Really Interested wrote: »

Many people on here on Politics.ie are vocal LGBT supporters and Trump supporters.

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/12/532588488/as-pride-marches-take-resistance-stance-where-do-lgbt-trump-supporters-fit-in

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/trump-welcomes-in-republican-lgbt-advocates/article/2629586

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/26/caitlyn-jenner-defends-her-vote-for-donald-trump-im-not-a-one-issue-voter/

Trump supporter or LGBT supporter. Pick one.

It quickly went from "look, he held a rainbow flag!" to "the T never belonged there anyway" as if they have any support for the LGB parts either.

Leroy42

How any minority voted for Trump is beyond me.

Some Latinos voted for him, we have the picture of LGBT flag given to him. What were these people thinking?

'Oh, Ivanka will be the moderate'. Well guess what, you weren't voting for Ivanka, knew nothing of her policies.

Shame on anybody from those minorities that Trump openly attacked, including women (which I know isn't a minority but still). They were prepared to overlook his clear abuse of your fellow citizens just because he said other things that you liked.

And now he is saying, himself a draft dodger, that Transgender people cannot be allowed into the military as it stops the military from being focused on the job. What sort of weak ass military do they have when a few people can bring the whole thing to a halt because they think differently.

And don't for a second think he is not coming for L&G next. Once this door is reopened all the pent up rage and homophobia will come rushing out, just like the racism in recent months.

Land of the free, home of the brave? They are so scared of each other they have no chance against anyone else.

Calina

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/890260758050856961

I am really thinking the checks and balances need to kick in fast.

Professor Moriarty

I think this presidency is about to crash and burn.

Call me Al

Calina wrote: »

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/890260758050856961

I am really thinking the checks and balances need to kick in fast.

I saw that earlier. I think it's just appalling how he's playing to a certain section of the electorate in this way. I mean the man has the morals of an alley cat and yet spouting lines like this has the religious voters thinking he's a true believer and has their backs.
He is such a hypocrite.

Hermy

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think this presidency is about to crash and burn.

If that happens and Trump has to step aside does Pence take over?
Or are there such things as snap elections in the US?

Calina

There is a defined line of succession of which Pence, Paul Ryan and Orrin Hatch are the sequence.

Good time to be learning about USA civics I think.

Professor Moriarty

Hermy wrote: »

If that happens and Trump has to step aside does Pence take over?
Or are there such things as snap elections in the US?

My guess is that he'll be forced to resign within 12 months and Pence will take over. He's a different kind of loon but he's not insane.

Sonics2k

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

My guess is that he'll be forced to resign within 12 months and Pence will take over. He's a different kind of loon but he's not insane.

Pence is worse. He's competent and intelligent.

Professor Moriarty

Sonics2k wrote: »

Pence is worse. He's competent and intelligent.

Relatively. Would prefer him to Trump though. Mind you, I'd prefer a chimpanzee to Trump.

MadYaker

Pence isn't as malevolent or as much of an ego maniac. I don't agree with his politics at all but I think he'd be a slight improvement on Trump.

OMD

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Relatively. Would prefer him to Trump though. Mind you, I'd prefer a chimpanzee to Trump.

Bad as Trump is he is far better than Pence. Obviously I'd take the chimp first though. Chimp, then Trump, then Pence.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/mike-pence-beliefs-about-abortion-gay-marriage-women-reporters-2017-6

Some examples of Pence's beliefs.

Professor Moriarty

OMD wrote: »

Bad as Trump is he is far better than Pence. Obviously I'd take the chimp first though. Chimp, then Trump, then Pence.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/mike-pence-beliefs-about-abortion-gay-marriage-women-reporters-2017-6

Some examples of Pence's beliefs.

There's no doubt he's a loon. But I don't think he'd govern by tweet and he's a seasoned politician who knows how things work. Whatever about his beliefs, I think he would be far less divisive. Relatively speaking, a safe pair of hands. Trump is a dangerous authoritarian and narcissist.

Incidentally, I agree with Pence on this:

During his time in Congress, Pence co-sponsored multiple pieces of legislation for a "federal shield law," which would have allowed reporters to keep confidential sources secret, even if the government requested them.

Really Interested

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Trump supporter or LGBT supporter. Pick one.

It quickly went from "look, he held a rainbow flag!" to "the T never belonged there anyway" as if they have any support for the LGB parts either.

I can't understand it be people like Jenner support both go figure.

Overheal

The more you know:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/oh-so-now-the-pentagon-cares-about-saving-money-1797272332

This past weekend, President Donald Trump attended the commissioning of the USS Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier in Virginia. This ship is notable for many things, two in particular: it represents the future of America’s naval defense, and it is burdened with $2.4 billion in cost overruns. Now, today, Trump announced that our military cannot—simply cannot!—afford the hypothetical extra medical costs of troops who happen to be transgender.

A study commissioned by Mr. Carter and carried out by the RAND Corporation found that allowing transgender people to serve openly would “cost little and have no significant impact on unit readiness.”

The study estimated that 2,450 active-duty members were transgender and predicted that around 65 would seek to transition each year. It estimated that the cost to the Pentagon of those procedures would be $2.9 million to $4.2 million a year.

The study predicted that service members would not seek to transition were the procedures not covered by the Pentagon, and that they would likely have higher rates of substance abuse and suicide as a result.

Last year, The Washington Post reported that an internal study of the Pentagon’s budget from 2015 found more than $125 billion in waste. If, the report concluded, the brass accepted its recommendations, that amount of money could be saved over a five-year period up to 2020.

The Pentagon also spends “$42 million on name-brand Viagra and $84 million on erectile dysfunction drugs in general,” as reported today by our friends at Lifehacker. Oh, and those trips to Mar-a-Lago for the Vacationer-in-Chief are $3.6 million a pop.

So, thats tens of millions of dollars being spent on boners and living it up in Florida.

And The F35 is hundred of billions of dollars over-budget, late, and short on initial procurement projections.

Manic Moran

mhge wrote: »

Hermy wrote: »

Great news for transgender folk.

Why anyone would want to serve in the US military is beyond me.

The horrors that soldiers in battle must endure don't bare thinking about.

Many are probably in administration, facilities etc. Good medical coverage is likely to be a factor.

I would think that the horrors of battle are pretty similar for soldiers in any army. Motivation varies from patriotism to education, family tradition to a desire for a challenge, adrenaline rushes through simply not being able to find better employment in the area.

Manic Moran

Double post.

Professor Moriarty

Another kick in the nuts for Trump. The Senate has rejected the healthcare plan. Doesn't auger well for final vote.

eire4

Sonics2k wrote: »

Pence is worse. He's competent and intelligent.

It is definitely arguable who is worse between the 2. But Pence is a professional politician who may be better at actually forcing through the kind of extremist agenda which he wants so I get where your coming from. One thing for sure if Pence ever gets into the oval office the now tenuous separation between church and state will be out the window given how extreme a religious zealot Pence is.

aloyisious

Leroy42 wrote: »

This morning Trump has just tweeted that the US military will no longer accept or allow transgender individuals to serve in any capacity.

I mean, apart for whatever position you have on this topic, it is utterly bizarre that this is what is is working on at the moment. I mean, is this really one of the top agenda points?

Congrats Don, another electoral promise reneged on, another group who you've added to the list of angry people. Another headache for the courts.

aloyisious

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So it looks like McCain did exactly as some predicted and voted for Repeal

According to Fox News , the 1st attempt at repeal was voted down 57-43 late last night..

With 9 GOP Senators voting against , McCain not listed among them...

I can only partly resist the desire to have hoped that John would have been ill enough not to attend and vote for the passage of the bill to allow a debate. It would have failed if he'd been absent, though the GOP probably had a plan B to delay the vote for a day or two to allow him attend on a later date.

Overheal

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Another kick in the nuts for Trump. The Senate has rejected the healthcare plan. Doesn't auger well for final vote.

Well he's either off playing on a fire truck or trying to distract people with crap like the LGBTQ. You'd think he'd have spent more time working with GOP to shake up the vote, but nah

frostyjacks

It was ludicrous allowing them to serve in the military in the first place. Common sense is making a come back.

BowSideChamp

I think this is a good & sensible decision by Trump. The fact is a large proportion of transgender people have mental troubles:

• 80% have seriously considered suicide
• 40% actually attempted suicide
  www.teni.ie/attachments/dada519b-2ba9-47e0-af55-738866a69da4.PDF

Honestly, allowing them into battle just endangers them and their battle buddies. As a subset of the population they are too much of a risk to be given guns.

Oafley Jones

eire4 wrote: »

It is definitely arguable who is worse between the 2. But Pence is a professional politician who may be better at actually forcing through the kind of extremist agenda which he wants so I get where your coming from. One thing for sure if Pence ever gets into the oval office the now tenuous separation between church and state will be out the window given how extreme a religious zealot Pence is.

The ban has come from Pence which he's been working on for months; Trump couldn't give a fiddlers other than now he thinks it'll shore up some of Sessions supporters.