Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

everlast75

JRant wrote: »

It's a good move in fairness. He is slowly putting good solid people around him that may actually help get some sort of a job done.

He was sold a pup by the GOP with the repeal and replace health care bill. The GOP had 7 years to put together a proper bill and couldn't even do that right. It shows how disfunctional they really are.

D-

Must try harder

Billy86

JRant wrote: »

It's a good move in fairness. He is slowly putting good solid people around him that may actually help get some sort of a job done.

He was sold a pup by the GOP with the repeal and replace health care bill. The GOP had 7 years to put together a proper bill and couldn't even do that right. It shows how disfunctional they really are.

You realise you're saying the bolded part on the exact same day he fired someone who only took one of the key jobs five days ago?

As for Kelly I don't know a tonne about the guy as he's not really the most public figure, but I do know when Priebus was named COS the exact same thing was said about getting the right people, that this would get him an 'in' with the GOP and get them onside etc... and just like almost every aspect of the Trump and Putin presidency, that has turned out a failure because of the man himself.

He also sold a pup - he was selling it. Yes, the GOP are to blame every bit as much as they had seven full years to work on this but let's not forget who was saying it would be sorted day one and would be "more affordable and improve the quality of the care available to all Americans." What has he done to assist in this, apart from playing golf helping to divide the GOP even further along the way on the matter?

BabyCheeses

JRant wrote: »

It's a good move in fairness. He is slowly putting good solid people around him that may actually help get some sort of a job done.

He was sold a pup by the GOP with the repeal and replace health care bill. The GOP had 7 years to put together a proper bill and couldn't even do that right. It shows how disfunctional they really are.

He should just put out his plan, the second one after the last failed.

aloyisious

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yet again, with Kelly, Trump is hiring a person for a senior position with no experience of that position or of working with the people that he will need to work with.

COS is No.2 (I think). Of course VP is technically No.2 but is largely without any real power. COS is supposed to be the gatekeeper to the POTUS and the person who drives the agenda.

As such, they need to have experience of working with various factions and keeping them all pointing in the same direction, or at least looking that way.

Generals are obviously very accomplished people, but they come from a very structured organisational structure, with pretty much total power over the people reporting to them. COS has no such defined power over the House or Senate?

So why does Trump continue to place these totally inexperienced people in such important positions? Kushner, Spicer, Priebus (although he at least had some political experience), DeVos, Scaramucci, Tillerson. That is not to say they are not maybe brilliant people in their own right, they may well be, but none of them have any experience.

With control of the House and Senate they maybe could have got away with it, but it is clear now that neither the House or more importantly the Senate either fear or like Trump. So now he needs them and he simply does not have the tools to help get them on his side.

The fact that he hired Scaramucci in the 1st place was a sign of a man in total chaos. The fact that he fired him so quickly now simply paints him as incompetent. (I know many will say that was obvious, but with each passing day he only serves to highlight it).

Now Kelly may prove to be the key to getting this box of frogs to at least keep the lid on, but I can't see it. As others have pointed out, with this firing of Mooch, it is clear that Kelly called the shots on that. So is Trump going to be happy to cede control? Because one of the other key aspects of the COS job is to tell POTUS stuff he doesn't want to hear and to say no.

AFAIK, WH COS is the person as a firewall between WH staff and President, keeping them doing what their job requires them to do. No President cedes control by having a WH COS, not even Don with his muddled way of staff interaction.

Kelly, like higher ranking military staff officers, has a history of personnel management [not all aligned to the military mode]. The average Gen Staff officer has a CV from civil college/s on business management and other business-science related issues, outside the standard military courses they've taken.

The "I'm in charge" statement of a retired general staff officer serving as WH COS is part of history. Mike Pence would have Kelly out the door faster than Don could say "you're fired" if Kelly tried anything on with Don. Steve Bannon would ensure that Mike was kept in the loop.

I had the strange thought a few days ago Scaramucci was brought in and handed a script by way of which Priebus could leave the job with honour, politics is such a strange affair, what with Scaramucci reportedly being an acquaintance of Don from the NYC business world. I hadn't expected that his usefulness would be over so fast.

JRant

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is an interesting take on it.

You do recall that he said that he would repeal and replace. Have it done on the same day apparently. Cheaper, better, keep your doctor.

You either think he was lying when he said all of that as he didn't know and was just making it up, or that he was shown the details by the GOP and they somehow mislaid the plans or something.

It can only be taken as a good move if you acknowledge that the last 6 months have been a disaster and that this is the start of getting things on track. That might be true, but again, it was Trump that selected all this people in the first place. He could have picked anyone but this was his best judgement. No leader goes onto to the field with a second string team in the 1st quarter. You go out to get a good start. Unless he thinks that the NE Patriots actually planned the last Superbowl to go that way!

Trump has lost any credibility he had going in. He might be able to build it back up, but it will take time and effort and require him to work with others. None of those has he shown any ability to deliver on to date.

Oh without a doubt it's been a disaster this past 6 months. No sane person could possibly argue with that.

I think the GOP told him they wanted to repeal and replace,which he full ran with. That's a polite way of saying that he didn't know what he was talking about.

He thought he was getting the best people in at the start but obviously not and shows a lack of judgement for what the role actually required.

JRant

Billy86 wrote: »

You realise you're saying the bolded part on the exact same day he fired someone who only took one of the key jobs five days ago?

As for Kelly I don't know a tonne about the guy as he's not really the most public figure, but I do know when Priebus was named COS the exact same thing was said about getting the right people, that this would get him an 'in' with the GOP and get them onside etc... and just like almost every aspect of the Trump and Putin presidency, that has turned out a failure because of the man himself.

He also sold a pup - he was selling it. Yes, the GOP are to blame every bit as much as they had seven full years to work on this but let's not forget who was saying it would be sorted day one and would be "more affordable and improve the quality of the care available to all Americans." What has he done to assist in this, apart from playing golf helping to divide the GOP even further along the way on the matter?

He was selling more than one pup from the start. Unfortunately that is very much the nature of politics. As much as I can't stand it, they all do it unfortunately.

What's with the "Trump and Putin" presidency malarkey?

ThisRegard

I wouldn't be surprised if he was talking about the firing.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/892147656319004672

demfad

Pence is distancing himself from Trump rapidly, telling the Baltic states that the US will react to any Russian agression. Giving the opposite message to Trump. Meanwhile Russia is ejecting diplomats a day early while the sanctions bill sits unsigned on Trump's desk.
A another blow thus week could make this presidency impotent and on the impeachment conveyer belt.

Meanwhile, Arron Banks has leaked to the london Times that the Senate Intel committee may require him to testify on Russian connections to Trump and Brexit.
http://https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leave-campaign-funder-arron-banks-to-testify-on-russia-ties-to-brexit-and-donald-trump-9dmsbqp3v

Patser

ThisRegard wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if he was talking about the firing.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/892147656319004672

Just seen that! He really is sounding more and more like Nero fiddling as Rome burns. There's no 2 ways about it. Scaramucci's appointment and removal was embarrassing. So why say something so painfully brash as if the suggest - 'Great day here! Nothing unusual at all....'

Mardy Bum

Patser wrote: »

Just seen that! He really is sounding more and more like Nero fiddling as Rome burns. There's no 2 ways about it. Scaramucci's appointment and removal was embarrassing. So why say something so painfully brash as if the suggest - 'Great day here! Nothing unusual at all....'

He has serious mental issues so it is no surprise. He is delusional and to quote Scaramucci "a paranoiac".

Arghus

Stheno wrote: »

Its better than any soap opera

And by "better" you really mean worse.

Billy86

JRant wrote: »

He was selling more than one pup from the start. Unfortunately that is very much the nature of politics. As much as I can't stand it, they all do it unfortunately.

What's with the "Trump and Putin" presidency malarkey?

Trump, Putin, no real difference in them really. They share the presidency on issues, most notably Russia and sanctions - they colluded together in the election (Trump's benefit) and did so under the agreement to talk about sanctions (Putin's benefit).

So we agree Trump wasn't sold a pup on health care, he was selling the pup. Not sure why you said he was sold a pup on that one.

captbarnacles

Woah. News now that Trump dictated Juniors 'misleading' statement!

Billy86

It was already confirmed the Trump and Putin campaign was a collusive one, and while clear as day beforehand anyway, that's a confirmation Trump knew about the meeting and that it was about sanctions.

captbarnacles

Makes his great day at the whitehouse tweet even funnier

Billy86

Quotes from the Browder testimony re the Magnitsky Act/Russian sanctions, why Putin is so desperate to get rid of them, and how the Russian lawyer comes into it.

Russia has a well-known reputation for corruption; unfortunately, I discovered that it was far worse than many had thought. When Putin was first elected in 2000, he found that the oligarchs had misappropriated much of the president’s power as well. They stole power from him while stealing money from my investors.

in July 2003 ... Putin arrested Russia’s biggest oligarch and richest man, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. After Khodorkovsky’s conviction, the other oligarchs went to Putin and asked him what they needed to do to avoid sitting in the same cage as Khodorkovsky. From what followed, it appeared that Putin’s answer was, “Fifty percent.” He wasn’t saying 50 percent for the Russian government or the presidential administration of Russia, but 50 percent for Vladimir Putin personally. From that moment on, Putin became the biggest oligarch in Russia and the richest man in the world

---

Over 25 Interior Ministry officials barged into my Moscow office and the office of the American law firm that represented me. The officials seized all the corporate documents connected to the investment holding companies of the funds that I advised. I didn’t know the purpose of these raids so I hired the smartest Russian lawyer I knew, a 35-year-old named Sergei Magnitsky. I asked Sergei to investigate the purpose of the raids and try to stop whatever illegal plans these officials had.

Sergei went out and investigated. He came back with the most astounding conclusion of corporate identity theft: The documents seized by the Interior Ministry were used to fraudulently re-register our Russian investment holding companies to a man named Viktor Markelova known criminal convicted of manslaughter. After more digging, Sergei discovered that the stolen companies were used by the perpetrators to misappropriate $230 million of taxes that our companies had paid to the Russian government in the previous year.

---

As I thought about it, the murder of Sergei Magnitsky was done to cover up the theft of $230 million from the Russian Treasury. I knew that the people who stole that money wouldn’t keep it in Russia. As easily as they stole the money, it could be stolen from them. These people keep their ill-gotten gains in the West, where property rights and rule of law exist. This led to the idea of freezing their assets and banning their visas here in the West.

In 2010, I traveled to Washington and told Sergei Magnitsky’s story to Senators Benjamin Cardin and John McCain. They were both shocked and appalled and proposed a new piece of legislation called The Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act.

Despite the White House’s desire to reset relations with Russia at the time, this case shined a bright light on the criminality and impunity of the Putin regime and persuaded Congress that something needed to be done. In November 2012 the Magnitsky Act passed the House of Representatives by 364 to 43 votes and later the Senate 92 to 4 votes. On December 14, 2012, President Obama signed the Sergei Magnitsky Act into law.

Putin was furious. Looking for ways to retaliate against American interests, he settled on the most sadistic and evil option of all: banning the adoption of Russian orphans by American families.

---

Since 2012 it’s emerged that Vladimir Putin was a beneficiary of the stolen $230 million that Sergei Magnitsky exposed.

I estimate that he has accumulated $200 billion of ill-gotten gains from these types of operations over his 17 years in power. He keeps his money in the West and all of his money in the West is potentially exposed to asset freezes and confiscation. Therefore, he has a significant and very personal interest in finding a way to get rid of the Magnitsky sanctions.

The second reason why Putin reacted so badly to the passage of the Magnitsky Act is that it destroys the promise of impunity he’s given to all of his corrupt officials.

There are approximately ten thousand officials in Russia working for Putin who are given instructions to kill, torture, kidnap, extort money from people, and seize their property. Before the Magnitsky Act, Putin could guarantee them impunity and this system of illegal wealth accumulation worked smoothly. However, after the passage of the Magnitsky Act, Putin’s guarantee disappeared. The Magnitsky Act created real consequences outside of Russia and this created a real problem for Putin and his system of kleptocracy.

---

One of the most shocking attempts took place in the spring and summer of last year when a group of Russians went on a lobbying campaign in Washington to try to repeal the Magnitsky Act by changing the narrative of what had happened to Sergei.

Who was this group of Russians acting on behalf of the Russian state? Two men named Pyotr and Denis Katsyv, a woman named Natalia Veselnitskaya, and a large group of American lobbyists, all of whom are described below.

---

Her first step was to set up a fake NGO that would ostensibly promote Russian adoptions, although it quickly became clear that the NGO’s sole purpose was to repeal the Magnitsky Act. This NGO was called the Human Rights Accountability Global Initiative Foundation (HRAGI).

Through HRAGI, Rinat Akhmetshin, a former Soviet intelligence officer naturalised as an American citizen, was hired to lead the Magnitsky repeal effort.

---

Veselnitskaya also instructed U.S. law firm Baker Hostetler and their Washington, D.C.-based partner Marc Cymrot to lobby members of Congress to support an amendment taking Sergei Magnitsky’s name off the Global Magnitsky Act. Mr. Cymrot was in contact with Paul Behrends, a congressional staffer on the House Foreign Affairs Committee at the time, as part of the anti-Magnitsky lobbying campaign.

Veselnitskaya, through Baker Hostetler, hired Glenn Simpson of the firm Fusion GPS to conduct a smear campaign against me and Sergei Magnitsky in advance of congressional hearings on the Global Magnitsky Act.

---

As part of Veselnitskaya’s lobbying, a former Wall Street Journal reporter, Chris Cooper of the Potomac Group, was hired to organize the Washington, D.C.-based premiere of a fake documentary about Sergei Magnitsky and myself. This was one the best examples of Putin’s propaganda.

On June 13, 2016, they funded a major event at the Newseum to show their fake documentary, inviting representatives of Congress and the State Department to attend.

While they were conducting these operations in Washington, D.C., at no time did they indicate that they were acting on behalf of Russian government interests, nor did they file disclosures under the Foreign Agent Registration Act.

Peregrinus

captbarnacles wrote: »

Woah. News now that Trump dictated Juniors 'misleading' statement!

So let me get this straight:

Trump goes to the G20, and is criticised for taking two hours out from a collective "meet and greet" for all the leaders to talk exclusively to Putin, in the presence only of a Russian-provided interpreter. He later explains that he and Putin were talking about "adoptions".

On the way home from the G20, he dictates a statement to be issued by he beleaguered son about the now-notorious meeting between mini-Trump and a Russian lawyer who promised to deliver the dirt on Hillary. The statement says that mini-Trump and the Russian lawyer discussed "adoptions". It fails to mention that more people were at the meeting and the the discussion addressed other issues

Well, what a coincidence!

JRant

Billy86 wrote: »

Trump, Putin, no real difference in them really. They share the presidency on issues, most notably Russia and sanctions - they colluded together in the election (Trump's benefit) and did so under the agreement to talk about sanctions (Putin's benefit).

So we agree Trump wasn't sold a pup on health care, he was selling the pup. Not sure why you said he was sold a pup on that one.

He was sold a pup by the GOP leadership and ran with it. I mean that much is plainly obvious.

There is a huge difference between Trump and Putin, to say otherwise is ridiculous. Take Browders testimony that you've linked to. Putin is a dangerous decitful dictator, Trump more of a blundering bafoon. Browders also clearly points out that the Russians don't do "sides". They hedged there bets in the election and interfered on both sides.

Peregrinus

JRant wrote: »

There is a huge difference between Trump and Putin, to say otherwise is ridiculous. Take Browders testimony that you've linked to. Putin is a dangerous decitful dictator, Trump more of a blundering bafoon.

The "huge difference" is that Putin is competent, Trump incompetent. The main thing that stops Trump from being a second Putin is that he doesn't know how it's done.

derb12

JRant wrote: »

Browders also clearly points out that the Russians don't do "sides". They hedged there bets in the election and interfered on both sides.

It seems more likely that the Russians were just preparing for all eventualities. And for the outcome of trump winning, they have a carrot option to curry favour (dirt on Hillary and help him win) and the stick option (dossier). And if all else fails, the carrot can be turned into a stick if the Russians leak evidence that they helped.
As for the outcome of Hillary winning, while I am sure they undoubtedly tried to gain some leverage there, they clearly didn't do anything to help her.
Saying they "interfered on both sides" ignores the fact that they interfered to help one side and hinder the other.

On another note , I can't imagine scaramucci turning the other cheek, rising above the fray and maintaining a dignified silence about all this. No doubt there'll be some interesting reminiscences published sooner rather than later.

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

Browders also clearly points out that the Russians don't do "sides". They hedged there bets in the election and interfered on both sides.

Does that excuse the trumps campaign likely collusion? If Clinton's campaign was involved in a similar manner then they should be held accountable too however there so far is no indication of that, at least not on the scale or level that trumps campaign seems to have been.

Also its quite clear who they would have preffered to have win. Trump who seems to not care at all about or even acknowledge the Russians meddling and seems to hero worship Putin or Clinton who is very much anti Russia and would take a much harder line on any Russian shenanigans

Leroy42

JRant wrote: »

He was sold a pup by the GOP leadership and ran with it. I mean that much is plainly obvious.

Another change in narrative.

All through the primaries and the campaign Trump put himself out as an outsider, the man that GOP didn't want and he crushed all their candidates so they had no choice but to run with him.

Now you seem to be suggesting that Trump was only pushing the Obamacare repeal and replace due to being lied to be the GOP? The man that can't be controlled was so easily manipulated that he was simply told they had everything ready, never actually asked for details, and is now ready to tear apart ACA in order to cover it up?

Why would he not say that he was sold a pup? Why would he not simply come out and say that he was told that the GOP had everything in place, ready to go, he pushed it from the pulpit and now he has been stuck with it? He has no problem calling out the GOP over other things.

You have simply made up the hypothesis that he was sold a pup, without anything to back it up, because it takes away from the fact that Trump sold the pup to the American people. He has now got so many of them almost fearing Obamacare that they would almost prefer no insurance.

If he really was sold a pup, then it really is on him to call them out and take a step back. Acknowledge that they are stuck with the less than perfect Obamacare for the time being and set up a special committee to review and draft new legislation over the next two years. Instead we have him trying to blackmail Senators form Alaska in voting for a bill that doesn't work.

Blowfish

As if yesterday wasn't bad enough, there's even more stuff reported this morning.

It now seems Kelly actually phoned Comey just after his firing as he wasn't happy with it. I can't imagine Trump reacting particularly well to that news.

Also, it turns out Trump dictated Jr's response about the Russian Lawyer meeting, saying that it was about 'adoptions'. This was one day after G20, so just after the hour long extra meeting with Putin.

In addition to that, we have the first Republican Senator publically turning on Trump. Flake is up for election in 2018 so it could be that he's trying to save his own skin, but either way, bad news if even Republicans realise that turning against Trump may be advantageous politically.

Peregrinus

What Leroy42 said.

Long before the Republican establishment was trying to make terms with Trump, at a time when he was still the rank outsider who could not possibly win, Trump was making commitments on health. Back in September 2015, he was promising universal health care, to be provided partly by reforming the insurance system to make health insurance cheaper (and therefore accessible to more people) while still preserving quality of care, and partly by the government paying directly for healthcare for those who could not afford even the newly-cheap insurance.

This was not a pup sold to Trump by the Republican establishment; this was all his own work.

JRant

Peregrinus wrote: »

The "huge difference" is that Putin is competent, Trump incompetent. The main thing that stops Trump from being a second Putin is that he doesn't know how it's done.

Trump is nothing like Putin and we can be thankful for that. He is everything Trump is not. This is a man who assassinates rivals, the worse Trump can manage is a tweet. The hyperbole is a bit much.

jooksavage

Peregrinus wrote: »

This was not a pup sold to Trump by the Republican establishment; this was all his own work.

There have been few politicians, let alone presidents, whose words have carried so little weight. He never understood healthcare to begin with so it was easy for him to talk about things like universal coverage. Dishonesty implies a degree of cunning. I think for Trump those promises were just so much meaningless words. Now, again we see his the empathetic deficit at his core: let Obamacare die (along with the folks who literally need it to stay alive).

Whoever comes after him, Rep or Dem, will have their work cut out for them rehabilitating the office of the president.

Leroy42

Even the press release and press conference the WH can't even come up with a reliable story.

There are actually three separate claims as to what happened to lead to Scaramucci leaving.

1) Scaramucci offered to go to give a clean slate
2) Kelly wanted him to go
3) POTUS deemed the comments to NYT reporter unacceptable and wanted him gone.

So which is it? If 1) then why didn't Trump try to make him stay? Was it worth losing both Spicer and Priebus over a person who had no loyalty to the position?
If 2) where does that leave Trumps authority? Is Kelly now effectively in charge of all staff and making the calls. How does Trump feel about Kelly getting rid of the man Trump only just brought in and seemed very happy with?
If 3) why did it take Trump so many days to actually deal with this? It seems awfully coincidental that he makes his decision and exactly the same time that Kelly turned up. Did Trump only read the comments on Monday morning? If he knew about them last week why not issue a put down then? Did he either not care or hadn't the authority to do anything about it.

Whatever way they try to spin it this is a crushing embarrassment for Trump. Following on so quickly from the Healthcare debacle, which involved him trying to blackmail an Senator into voting a certain way and ended up with Trump stating that he would crush Obamacare through withholding of subsidies since he didn't get his way, this is yet another blow to his already fragile hold on authority.

The only thing one can take out of this is that Kelly called the shots on this. Kelly is now effectively making the decisions, the decisions that either Trump disagrees with or that he was unable to do because he lacked the authority.

While this is funny, and largely irrelevant in of itself, what it does is give even more ability of the likes of NK and Russia to keep pushing knowing that Trump has no ability to actually make a decision. As was pointed out by a reporter during the press briefing yesterday, Trump has said nothing at all on Russia expelling of US diplomats. He had a number of press events that he could have laid down the position and never did so. All Huckerbee could say was that when they have a position they will announce it.

So we have the US president, either totally caught off guard with no contingency plan, or totally unable to think of a strategy to deal with issues. The same with NK. They continue to launch missiles and Trump says nothing, apart from call of his brief love affair with China.

JRant

Look, it's clear the GOP leadership wanted the repeal and replace bill. They spent 7 years telling everyone that's what they told wanted, I'm not even going to argue with anyone on that point. It shows a lack of leadership within the GOP that they couldn't get it over the line.

The Russians played both sides of the election with the dossier and the email leaks. Browders, who has no dog in this fight said as much and I would tend to believe him.

Peregrinus

JRant wrote: »

Trump is nothing like Putin and we can be thankful for that. He is everything Trump is not. This is a man who assassinates rivals, the worse Trump can manage is a tweet. The hyperbole is a bit much.

Trump admires Putin and his leadership style, and has said so. When specifically asked about assassinations as an aspect of Putin's leadership style, he made it very clear that he saw no fundamental problem; he though American leaders would do the same in the like circumstances.

I see nothing to suggest that Trump's instincts on such matters don't line up with Putin's. What stops him from being a second Putin, though, is not just his own gross incompetence. It's also the greater resilience of American democratic institutions and traditions. Those much-vaunted checks and balances do seem to be doing their share of checking and balancing and that, in the end, is what will save the fools from the knave they have elected.

Billy86

The state of Georgia has a population of 10.5mn (so at a guess about 8mn of voting age and about 7.5mn of those able to vote)... and the state of Georgia just cancelled the registration of 591,000 of those voters.

Trent Houseboat

JRant wrote: »

Look, it's clear the GOP leadership wanted the repeal and replace bill. They spent 7 years telling everyone that's what they told wanted, I'm not even going to argue with anyone on that point. It shows a lack of leadership within the GOP that they couldn't get it over the line.

Trump promised better, cheaper care to everyone with no cuts to Medicare or Medicaid, it shows a lack of leadership from the president that he didn't share his secret plan for winning the war in Vietnam healthcare with his legislators.

That or he sold the American people a pup.

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

It shows a lack of leadership within the GOP that they couldn't get it over the line.

As a republican President, Trump is the defacto leader of the GOP, if they couldn't pass the legislation the blame falls at his door

jooksavage

JRant wrote: »

Trump is nothing like Putin and we can be thankful for that. He is everything Trump is not. This is a man who assassinates rivals, the worse Trump can manage is a tweet. The hyperbole is a bit much.

Trump is an authoritarian. He likes Putin. He likes Erdogan. He likes Abdel-Fattah el-Sisi. I don't honestly think Trump would have the stomach to personally oversee some of the things those men have been responsible for. However, this is the same guy who said during the campaign "we need to go after the families" in relation to terrorists. The same guy who advocated torture for the hell of it, even if it doesn't work. This is nothing new. Back in the 80's, he pushed for the death penalty for the Central Park five, later acquitted and to this day, refuses to acknowledge their innocence.

If the system that's already stymied large portions of his agenda wasn't in place, or wasn't as robust, God only knows what kind of regime the US would have on its hands.

Leroy42

But JRant you are conflating the two.

GOP clearly wanted to get rid of ACA, and had indeed spent the previous 7 years doing everything they could to initially stop it coming in, watering it down and then finally trying everything to repeal it.

There is no argument that GOP have been found with no trunks when the tide went out. Paul Ryan and McConnell have been shown up to be little more than talking heads, with no actual ideas or ability to lead.

Separate to this is Trumps own take on the healthcare issue. He said that he would repeal and replace. He even said he might order a special sitting of the houses on inauguration day to get it done.

Now either he was lied to by the GOP or he was lying. You are taking the position that he was lied to. But on what basis are you making the claim? Trump has never said it, never put anything in place to help prepare a new bill. He took a victory lap when the House passed the bill a few months ago.

So its not that you are wrong, but you can't simply make an assertion without any evidence. Currently myself and other posters have posted facts that call into question your position and you have been unable to refute any of them.

On what basis do you think that Trump was merely a patsy for the GOP?

Peregrinus

JRant wrote: »

Look, it's clear the GOP leadership wanted the repeal and replace bill. They spent 7 years telling everyone that's what they told wanted, I'm not even going to argue with anyone on that point. It shows a lack of leadership within the GOP that they couldn't get it over the line.

You don't have to argue that with anyone about that. We all agree.

What we disagree with is your claim that Trump was sold a pup. Trump was raising this little doggie all on his own long before anyone on the RNC would give him the time of day.

The fact that the Republican congressional leadership are now exposed as the deceitful self-serving hypocrites they have been for years does not benefit Trump, or improve his position, in the slightest. Trump is the President with so little moral and political authority that, despite all the powers of patronage that belong to his office and all the expertise in bullying and bluster that he brings to it, he could not bribe or bully a legislature controlled by his own party to vote for his own party's policy. Could a president be any more useless than that?

Leroy42

jooksavage wrote: »

Trump is an authoritarian. He likes Putin. He likes Erdogan. He likes Abdel-Fattah el-Sisi. I don't honestly think Trump would have the stomach to personally oversee some of the things those men have been responsible for. However, this is the same guy who said during the campaign "we need to go after the families" in relation to terrorists. The same guy who advocated torture for the hell of it, even if it doesn't work. This is nothing new. Back in the 80's, he pushed for the death penalty for the Central Park five, later acquitted and to this day, refuses to acknowledge their innocence.

If the system that's already stymied large portions of his agenda wasn't in place, or wasn't as robust, God only knows what kind of regime the US would have on its hands.

This.

Putin didn't start out killing and corruption. They become emboldened as each push at the edges is accepted.

Trump has shown enough traits to suggest that given the right circumstances he seems to think that what he does is correct, simply because he does it. This is a man that undertook fraud. That accepted that his employees lied under oath. That wants to change the voting rules in the Senate to make it easier to get his way.

Very few come in with guns blazing promising to cut off human rights and deny democracy. Even Putin still carries out the pretence of elections. It is like the frog in the heating water.

People simply accept the latest change and think how much worse it could be. Then they look back and wonder what happened but sure the person is too powerful to do anything about it now. History is littered with examples.

jooksavage

JRant wrote: »

The Russians played both sides of the election with the dossier and the email leaks. Browders, who has no dog in this fight said as much and I would tend to believe him.

I recently heard a podcast with Bill Browder where he felt it was quite likely, even probable that collusion occurred between Trump campaign & Russia.

Billy86

JRant wrote: »

Look, it's clear the GOP leadership wanted the repeal and replace bill. They spent 7 years telling everyone that's what they told wanted, I'm not even going to argue with anyone on that point. It shows a lack of leadership within the GOP that they couldn't get it over the line.

The Russians played both sides of the election with the dossier and the email leaks. Browders, who has no dog in this fight said as much and I would tend to believe him.

The dossier came from a former MI6 spy working for an American company and was privately given over. It wasn't a known thing until a week before the election, was deemed fake by many and essentially lefty uncovered in the media (they were too busy talking about a handful of additional Clinton emails that was publicly announced), and none of it was published until January, long after the election. The Russian DNC hacks on the other hand were purposely done as publicly as possible, were talked about more than all policies of both candidates, they were arguably the single biggest influencing factor in the election. Unless I'm missing something significant, there is no comparison between the two.

The GOP wanted the repeal and replace bill (and shows a lack of honesty more than a lack of leadership as it was an outright lie that they went to extreme measures to have nobody see until directly before voting on it), as did Trump. They deserve every bit of criticism they are getting over this, and so does he.

ThisRegard

Trump was apparently the person who came up with and told his son to spin the story that the meeting was about adoptions. He must have been furious when the original emails were put out on Twitter.

Billy86

ThisRegard wrote: »

Trump was apparently the person who came up with and told his son to spin the story that the meeting was about adoptions. He must have been furious when the original emails were put out on Twitter.

It's funny how for someone who didn't know anything about the meetings, he somehow managed to guess exactly what was talking about in them (adoptions/sanctions).

jooksavage

ThisRegard wrote: »

Trump was apparently the person who came up with and told his son to spin the story that the meeting was about adoptions. He must have been furious when the original emails were put out on Twitter.

As usual, we'll have to wait until the States wakes up to see how they respond to this one. Heard Richard Painter (Bush-era ethics lawyer) talking about it already. He said that, even taken alone, an outright and immediately disprovable lie from the president in a criminal matter would land that president in impeachment territory.

I'm anticipating the house Republicans will be "concerned" and leave it at that.

Zubeneschamali

BabyCheeses wrote: »

He should just put out his plan, the second one after the last failed.

He doesn't have any plans. He thinks being President is like making his TV show - look important, sign bits of paper, fire people. He has no clue what is happening around him.

Billy86

Also the USD dropped to 84.6c against the Euro yesterday - it is now a whopping 12c down on where it was just before Trump taking office.

Leroy42

Billy86 wrote: »

Also the USD dropped to 84.6c against the Euro yesterday - it is now a whopping 12c down on where it was just before Trump taking office.

But isn't that good for US exports?

What it will do is put pressure on Trump to reexamine the situation with the Chinese Yen (he had called it a currency manipulator).

I think, though, the short term will see positive effects. And the short term is where Trump concentrates

Water John

That Russia inquiry will rumble on and proceed no matter what changes are going on in the WH. Wouldn't see any further effort at derailing it being possible now. with Kelly as GOS.
Think Kelly as a steadying hand may out last Trump.

Billy86

Leroy42 wrote: »

But isn't that good for US exports?

What it will do is put pressure on Trump to reexamine the situation with the Chinese Yen (he had called it a currency manipulator).

I think, though, the short term will see positive effects. And the short term is where Trump concentrates

With how much it is steadily falling by go very south unless rectified - just look at the UK's 30c decline over the last year.

There is also the matter of what the US will be exporting that would not otherwise sell well anyways, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

But isn't that good for US exports?

What it will do is put pressure on Trump to reexamine the situation with the Chinese Yen (he had called it a currency manipulator).

I think, though, the short term will see positive effects. And the short term is where Trump concentrates

Trump actually said that the dollar was too strong back in April, so the declining strength of the Dollar will be claimed by him and his supporters as a win for his administration.

walshb

WTF is going on with the office of the President Of The United States these past 7 months?

Talk about an absolute erosion of standards...

It's so mad that you couldn't make it up..

Water John

Walsh, have you been in hibernation?
For a complete answer, just read the thread. The short answer wouldn't do it justice.

walshb

Water John wrote: »

Walsh, have you been in hibernation?
For a complete answer, just read the thread. The short answer wouldn't do it justice.

I haven't been following the thread. Just a day after day this presidency is becoming more and more ridiculous.