Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

demfad

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

The voice of the working class thinks 100 room palace where you're waited on hand and foot is a dump.

I wonder at what point people stop pretending they weren't fooled by a cheap con. I understand there's an issue of sunk costs and it's nice to have someone tell you that you're the victim.
Is it not better to cut bait and wait for the next messiah who promises to fix everything than to try to convince yourself and others that whatever self-made calamity Trump is currently fucking himself in the face with is actually seven dimensional chess.

Anecdotally I don't know anyone who has changed their mind. Has anyone on here changed their mind? His supporters may be quieter, but I don't know that they're any fewer. They've probably regressed back to their bubbles/are investigating underground child sex pizzerias.
If the election was rerun tomorrow I don't think he's get a substantially less than his last tally.

I think a lot of what you say is true.

Authoritarians use loyalty, vilify press and invent enemies to galvanise their support. They are in effect creating a tribal situation.
This is actually mirrored in Brexit which (people are realising) have the same bad propaganda actors behind them as Trump.

Brexiters are now saying they would see their country take a big economic hit and still want Brexit. The narrative that serious civil disturbance will occur if Brexit is stopped is exactly the same line as in the US.
That said Trump's core is being eroded.

In the rust belt where 80% of the population is white and fossil fuels are/were big employers he is holding. In the south where 40% of the population are latino he is losing ground.

Chips Lovell

This thread is not the place for complaints about the forum or its moderation. Start a Feedback thread if you have any issues.

Trent Houseboat

everlast75 wrote:

Great post, but I have to disagree with the highlighted segment. I appreciate "substantially" is subjective, but I do believe that people would go into their booths and regardless of what they tell exit polls, vote to get him out.

While his first six months of President Trump have been farcical, it's not as though Candidate Trump seemed in anyway competent or honest.
People knew who they were voting for, that fact that he had no idea was supposedly a positive.

I don't think he'd lose many votes because republicans, for the most part, vote republican. The MAGA cultists think he's doing an excellent job sticking it to the press and triggering the libtards.
I think he would lose an election tomorrow because he would motivate those who stayed home in November to hold their nose and vote for she who will not be named.

Silver Lynel

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

The voice of the working class thinks 100 room palace where you're waited on hand and foot is a dump.

I wonder at what point people stop pretending they weren't fooled by a cheap con. I understand there's an issue of sunk costs and it's nice to have someone tell you that you're the victim.
Is it not better to cut bait and wait for the next messiah who promises to fix everything than to try to convince yourself and others that whatever self-made calamity Trump is currently fucking himself in the face with is actually seven dimensional chess.

Anecdotally I don't know anyone who has changed their mind. Has anyone on here changed their mind? His supporters may be quieter, but I don't know that they're any fewer. They've probably regressed back to their bubbles/are investigating underground child sex pizzerias.
If the election was rerun tomorrow I don't think he's get a substantially less than his last tally.

Excellent post.

I honestly don't even know anyone who has openly supported Trump.

I've seen people in the news who are big Trump fans and I've seen the crowds at his rallies but for the most part there doesn't seem to have ever been any mainstream support of Trump.

You'll see a lot of posts on threads like this that will say something along the lines of "I'm sure the Trump supporters will be along to tell us X, Y, Z in a minute" but that almost never materializes.

On a thread with over 3,000 posts how many are "pro-Trump"?

I know a lot of people are accused of being "Trump supporters" when in reality they could be better described as "not critical enough".

Trump Supporters are surely less important than Trump Voters but we don't really hear a lot from Trump Voters at all. Out of all the 1,000s of Trump related comments here on Boards how many were made by someone who actually went and voted for the guy?

60+ million people voted for Trump but we don't get to hear from them very often so who even knows what they think? Some of them must surely regret the decision but some of them might feel like they voted Trump to shake things up and so are getting what they wanted. It's impossible to say as they tend to keep quiet.

We have a big problem with picking out stupid tweets or wacky message board posts from random people and saying "look this is what Trump supporters think". Are we talking about Trump Supporters or Trump Voters here?

If he even makes it to 2020 as President then we'll see for sure what kind of support he has when the numbers start coming in. Who would have seriously predicted President Trump back in 2016? Yet, there were 60 million waiting to cast their vote.

Or maybe we should distinguish between Trump Supporters and Republican voters?

Most Americans are going to vote blue or red regardless of who is leading the campaigns. This bears out when you see that only 6 states changed their allegiance from blue in 2012 to red in 2016. This was enough to win an election though.

It's safe to assume I think that Trump would still manage to win 20 to 24 states.

The Democrats managed to go from 26 states in 2012 to only 20 states in 2016. So you could reasonably argue that they lost the election and I don't think blaming "The Russians" is a valid excuse.

I reckon that the Democrats severely neglected voters in those 6 states that "turned".

If we were going to look to Trump Supporters for any kind of insight then really the only Trump Supporters who matter are those within those 6 states who changed their vote from Democrat to Republican.

There are plenty who don't like Trump who would still vote Republican all over again tomorrow. I'm not sure those people were "fooled" but rather they just voted as they always have done.

People who changed from Democrat in 2012 to Republican in 2016 would probably have the most interesting things to say about why they voted for The Donald and how they feel about that now.

Sadly, I am not sure there are too many of them on Boards. I think we have more imaginary Trump Supporters here than real ones.

Billy86

Christy42 wrote: »

Have any of them ever posted reasons for supporting Trump (not opposing Hillary or MSM or any other deflection). I come here for a debate. Some posters seem to think their views can't be challenged.

I asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over what Trump supports wanted from him in terms of policies during and immediately after the election, as well as what they would consider a failure or what would cause them to lose faith in him. As expected, almost none answered - the few that did have either ignored him failing to push their agenda (or failing to do so) or have just decided to do a complete 180 on it. I wasn't alone in saying at the time that the reason most Trump supporters point blank refused to answer was because they didn't want to be held accountable, which has shown to be the case (not just here, I'm talking about his support in general).

The cold truth of the matter is that at this point in time, there is absolutely no reasoned argument for Trump unless you're a Russian who wants sanctions removed. Any issues prior to the election that would have been considered as such he has failed pathetically on or just abandoned altogether.

I picked up a few cards and bans over that election cycle too as did a number of non Trump supporters, but as has shown to be the case the central part of right wing ideology is "nothing bad is ever your fault, above all you are the victim in all of this."

Silver Lynel

Billy86 wrote: »

I asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over what Trump supports wanted from him in terms of policies during and immediately after the election, as well as what they would consider a failure or what would cause them to lose faith in him.

Who did you ask? Where did you find these Trump Supporters that you asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

Did any of the people you asked actually vote for Trump?

Do you distinguish between people who actively support Trump (by spreading his message or encouraging people to vote for him) and people who defend Trump or point out inaccuracies in your talking points?

I do feel there is a massive group of people who wanted Trump to win because they thought it would be hilarious. How do you feel about those people? Are they Trump Supporters?

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

That's the kind of passive-aggressive hostility that puts people off this thread/forum.

Yes, and the suggestion that women and minorities be treated with respect (sorry, "SJWs ramming their illiberal agenda down people's throats") is why Trump won.

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

While his first six months of President Trump have been farcical, it's not as though Candidate Trump seemed in anyway competent or honest.
People knew who they were voting for, that fact that he had no idea was supposedly a positive.

I've seen it said, with a great deal of validity, that many people's votes for Trump were a metaphorical brick through a window; a despairing cry for help. Which is a fair analysis, except that ignores the fact that many of those bricks were thrown through the voters' own windows.

"I don't like how my country is being run, so I'm going to help destroy it completely" isn't a rational or particularly defensible political philosophy, so people will come up with all sorts of reasons why it makes sense to have a jagged hole where there used to be a window, or how the broken glass is all those damn coastal liberals' fault.

oscarBravo

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I do feel there is a massive group of people who wanted Trump to win because they thought it would be hilarious.

Personally, I think they are idiots.

Leroy42

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Who did you ask? Where did you find these Trump Supporters that you asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

Did any of the people you asked actually vote for Trump?

Do you distinguish between people who actively support Trump (by spreading his message or encouraging people to vote for him) and people who defend Trump or point out inaccuracies in your talking points?

I do feel there is a massive group of people who wanted Trump to win because they thought it would be hilarious. How do you feel about those people? Are they Trump Supporters?

He asked on this forum, and his post is in response to recedite claiming that anyone with opposing views is basically unfairly treated.

Obviously this forum is only a portion of people, and mostly made up of Irish, many of them have no voting rights I would assume.

But that doesn't negate the validity of the arguments.

What is striking, is the lack of any real argument for Trump even from those that do support him, both on here and elsewhere. The Guardian continue to run a good video 'diary' where they talk to Trump supporters (which they did before the election as well) to see what the situation is. THe majority of them would indeed vote for him again, but very few have any substantive reasons for doing it. It normally comes down to Immigration, or they hate HC, or MSM is out to get us.

But in terms of positive reasons there is very few. Of course in a democracy, and indeed and open forum such as this, people are entitled to their opinions. But with that comes the acceptance that others are allowed to question those opinions.

We recently had the discussion about Trump being sold a pup by the GOP in terms of Healthcare. No actual reasoning behind this assertion was ever actually given, simply that the GOP must have promised him something before the election. But many posters pointed out the problems with that opinion. It is not the opinion that is the problem, it is the lack of any substantive facts on which that opinion was formed.

You only have to look at the white house press briefings to see. Whenever things become a bit tricky, the default is to blame the Dems or go back to HC. They are literally nothing positive to say. Trump tries to use the rise in the stock market and low unemployment but most people are aware that most of that is down to policies set up during Obama and the best that can be said is that Trump has damaged it.

Silver Lynel

Christy42 wrote: »

Have any of them ever posted reasons for supporting Trump (not opposing Hillary or MSM or any other deflection). I come here for a debate. Some posters seem to think their views can't be challenged.

Are you talking about people who just said they hope Trump wins and people who now saying they think he is doing a good job?

Or are you talking about people who actually voted for him in the election?

For people who didn't vote then surely "Hillary was worse" or "I just love seeing the MSM have a meltdown" are valid reasons to "support" Trump?

Personally, I got a right good laugh at the wailing and hysteria after Trump won but I never voted for Trump or donated to his campaign or anything so how is "I wanted him to win for the lolz" an invalid argument?

I had a good laugh the other day when a poster on here complained about having been deemed "pro-Trump" because they defended him or said maybe he wasn't all that bad.

One of the first replies was "No sympathy here. You wanted this. You got it."

Haha. What?

The assumption that if you are in any way sympathetic or not 100% anti-Trump then you must have wanted this president and you need to face the consequences is so stupid. What consequences?

If you are living in Ireland and you said "I hope The Donald beats Crooked Hillary" and then that's exactly what happened then how does that impact your life to the extent where it's a "you made your bed, now lie in it" situation? It's mad.

What will you all do when Trump finally leaves the White House?

Silver Lynel

oscarBravo wrote: »

Personally, I think they are idiots.

Maybe. If they are not from the USA though then there's not a lot they could realistically do to stop him from winning, right?

I mean, you are kind of saying to people on The Internet "I know this doesn't affect you but you need to take it seriously". Was that ever a realistic prospect?

How would you properly define "support" of Trump?

Billy86

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Who did you ask? Where did you find these Trump Supporters that you asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

Did any of the people you asked actually vote for Trump?

Do you distinguish between people who actively support Trump (by spreading his message or encouraging people to vote for him) and people who defend Trump or point out inaccuracies in your talking points?

I do feel there is a massive group of people who wanted Trump to win because they thought it would be hilarious. How do you feel about those people? Are they Trump Supporters?

I laid it over repeatedly on the Trump and election forums here and in after hours - if you go back over the forums for that time there were a lot of Trump fans who seem to have disappeared off these threads in recent months, or who mysteriously close their accounts shortly after the election. These people were not looking for him to win for 'teh lulz', they were ardent he was what was needed in US and world politics but never wanted to articulate as to why (hence my repeatedly asking).

I would echo OscarBravo's sentiment that people who did want Trump to win 'for teh lulz' are indeed idiots, though.

Silver Lynel

Billy86 wrote: »

I laid it over repeatedly on the Trump and election forums here and in after hours - if you go back over the forums for that time there were a lot of Trump fans who seem to have disappeared off these threads in recent months, or who mysteriously close their accounts shortly after the election. These people were not looking for him to win for 'teh lulz', they were ardent he was what was needed in US and world politics but never wanted to articulate as to why (hence my repeatedly asking).

I would echo OscarBravo's sentiment that people who did want Trump to win 'for teh lulz' are indeed idiots, though.

So you were basically all worked up about people who cared so little about politics that they couldn't even be bothered to articulate their opinions properly?

These people mysteriously closed their accounts too? So they've moved on and left you ranting into the void, asking questions that will never be answered?

People who voted for Trump "for teh lulz"? Yes. Morons.

People, who didn't even vote, who just wanted him to win so they can laugh at overly sensitive and hysterical posters on message boards? I'm Ok with that.

I'm sure the laughter would stop once he started ****ing up people's lives but if the people laughing never voted then they can't be held accountable for what Trump does as President. That's just silly.

If I go to a comedy show and laugh my head off at the jokes and then the comedian goes home and murders his neighbor then is it reasonable to give out to me because I was laughing at his jokes just hours before he committed a terrible crime?

Do you ever wonder if you have an unreasonably high opinion of yourself?

everlast75

Silver Lynel wrote: »

So you were basically all worked up about people who cared so little about politics that they couldn't even be bothered to articulate their opinions properly?

These people mysteriously closed their accounts too? So they've moved on and left you ranting into the void, asking questions that will never be answered?

Do you ever wonder if you have an unreasonably high opinion of yourself?

oscarBravo

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Maybe. If they are not from the USA though then there's not a lot they could realistically do to stop him from winning, right?

You asked about people who wanted him to win, not people who voted for him.

I mean, you are kind of saying to people on The Internet "I know this doesn't affect you but you need to take it seriously". Was that ever a realistic prospect?

If you think the President of the United States being objectively insane doesn't affect you, then you need to pay more attention.

How would you properly define "support" of Trump?

I'm not sure why you want me to define it. I think people who wanted Trump to win because it would be funny are as idiotic as anyone who wants North Korea to invade Japan because it would make for great television.

Silver Lynel

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you think the President of the United States being objectively insane doesn't affect you, then you need to pay more attention.

I am paying attention and it doesn't affect me.

Billy86

Silver Lynel wrote: »

So you were basically all worked up about people who cared so little about politics that they couldn't even be bothered to articulate their opinions properly?

These people mysteriously closed their accounts too? So they've moved on and left you ranting into the void, asking questions that will never be answered?

Do you ever wonder if you have an unreasonably high opinion of yourself?

No, I was asking those supporting Trump's candidacy why they were and what they expected from it and what they would deem as successes or failures. Almost none could answer, and of the very few that did we saw 180s when they turned out to be conned.

They've left me posting on an internet forum. The same one you are posting on. You know how internet forums work, right? Some may have reregistered in recent months so as not to be held to their previous posts, others may have looked for solace in a 'safe space', but almost none were willing to stick around and try to stand by their support for Trump after the fact.

And what gives you that impression? Is it because I consider wanting to see a Trump presidency for 'teh lulz' to have been idiotic?

Professor Moriarty

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I am paying attention and it doesn't affect me.

I live in Ireland and it affects me.

Silver Lynel

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think people who wanted Trump to win because it would be funny are as idiotic as anyone who wants North Korea to invade Japan because it would make for great television.

I'm not sure it's a very good comparison.

American foreign policy has been... questionable... for a long time and I think they would still be doing their old "let's bomb the brown people" routine regardless who who had the power.

I'm just not convinced that everyone has to take it as seriously as you do.

I don't really care who's in charge of the USA. I'm interested in how the hell they managed to elect a pretty dysfunctional celebrity for President but I'm not interested in this preachy "you have to care because..." crap.

Leroy42

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I am paying attention and it doesn't affect me.

You don't think POTUS has any effect on your life?

Really? If you live in Asia (particularly Japan and the Koreas) then he could very well have a direct impact on you. If you live in ME then his muddled up thinking in regards to the Israel/Palestine conflict could have long lasting reprecussions. If you live in Europe, then his attempt closer ties with Russia would increase the threat from that area. His denouncing of Nato and seemingly anti EU stance could have very deep impact.

And due to US power and influence across the globe, whilst we may not like it, POTUS is effectively a main player that effects, to more and less degrees, every single person on the planet.

That is true of every POTUS, not just Trump. It is one one the reasons why forums like this exists but there is nothing similar in terms of President Higgins.

Professor Moriarty

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I'm not sure it's a very good comparison.

American foreign policy has been... questionable... for a long time and I think they would still be doing their old "let's bomb the brown people" routine regardless who who had the power.

I'm just not convinced that everyone has to take it as seriously as you do.

I don't really care who's in charge of the USA. I'm interested in how the hell they managed to elect a pretty dysfunctional celebrity for President but I'm not interested in this preachy "you have to care because..." crap.

You don't have to care - that's your prerogative. Other people care that a madman is CEO of the most powerful nation on the planet. The fact that they care makes perfect sense to me.

Silver Lynel

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I live in Ireland and it affects me.

Well that sucks for you, I guess.

You can't influence the voting choices of 60+ million people living in another country so just do the best you can.

It still doesn't affect me.

If we have 4.7 million people in Ireland what % of those are severely affected by Trump, what % are moderately affected etc?

Were people in Ireland affected by Obama or Bush or Clinton? To what extent?

WinnyThePoo

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Are you talking about people who just said they hope Trump wins and people who now saying they think he is doing a good job?

Or are you talking about people who actually voted for him in the election?

For people who didn't vote then surely "Hillary was worse" or "I just love seeing the MSM have a meltdown" are valid reasons to "support" Trump?

Personally, I got a right good laugh at the wailing and hysteria after Trump won but I never voted for Trump or donated to his campaign or anything so how is "I wanted him to win for the lolz" an invalid argument?

I had a good laugh the other day when a poster on here complained about having been deemed "pro-Trump" because they defended him or said maybe he wasn't all that bad.

One of the first replies was "No sympathy here. You wanted this. You got it."

Haha. What?

The assumption that if you are in any way sympathetic or not 100% anti-Trump then you must have wanted this president and you need to face the consequences is so stupid. What consequences?

If you are living in Ireland and you said "I hope The Donald beats Crooked Hillary" and then that's exactly what happened then how does that impact your life to the extent where it's a "you made your bed, now lie in it" situation? It's mad.

What will you all do when Trump finally leaves the White House?

Still no sympathy. The people that voted for trump will have to face the consequences.

You vote for a turd. You've still a elected a turd.

Professor Moriarty

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Well that sucks for you, I guess.

You can't influence the voting choices of 60+ million people living in another country so just do the best you can.

It still doesn't affect me.

If we have 4.7 million people in Ireland what % of those are severely affected by Trump, what % are moderately affected etc?

Were people in Ireland affected by Obama or Bush or Clinton? To what extent?

Of course Ireland was affected by Obama, Bush and Clinton. In Clinton's case, very positively. Trump is CEO of the US. His decisions affect investment in Ireland, climate change, international security etc. It affects and concerns me that a madman has such influence over these issues that impact on me.

Leroy42

Trump has already said he wants to change the tax rates to bring US companies back. That is already a serious threat to Ireland Inc.

Whilst you may not work for one of those. you are part of an economy so if those people lose their jobs, Ireland Inc will have less money for welfare, you will end up paying more tax etc.

If Trump continues with his MAGA focus then it is likely that a trade war will result, leading to higher prices. If he starts a war that drives the oil price up, and thus the cost of petrol, heating, plastics, food etc I assume you will simply shrug your shoulders.

Clinton played a direct role in NI peace process? Did you miss that bit. Without US paying such a integral part it is unlikely to have been achieved.

If

WinnyThePoo

Actually we should just close the whole forum. Why talk about anything. Wasn't there another poster here a while back with the 'it doesn't effect you guys.. Why are you talking about it.. Something something... Hillary'

Silver Lynel

Leroy42 wrote: »

You don't think POTUS has any effect on your life?

No.

I go to work. I do my job. I get paid (not particularly well). I try to take care of my family. We take a vacation once in a while.

Is there a way that a different American President can make that better or worse for me?

How many people just survive paycheck to paycheck for many many years? The guy in charge of the USA comes and goes but their situation never changes.

I feel like people are constantly saying "you should be outraged over President Trump" but honestly I have more pressing issues to think about.

"What has this eejit tweeted out now" might be the extent of my outrage. I'm not earning more or less, I'm not struggling more or less.

Now, if you look back at the 6 states that swung from Blue to Red to give Trump the election. What kind of lives do the working, surviving, voting, people in those states live?

Silver Lynel

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Actually we should just close the whole forum. Why talk about anything. Wasn't there another poster here a while back with the 'it doesn't effect you guys.. Why are you talking about it.. Something something... Hillary'

Not the point.

Americans will mostly vote Red or Blue regardless of the candidate.

This time a sizable portion of Blue votes in 6 states became Red votes and Trump won the election. Why?

People who can't vote but are allegedly "Trump Supporters" are largely irrelevant yet the focus seems to be almost entirely on them.

The general problem could be with ANY American who votes Red or Blue regardless (so the problem is actually with both sides) or the specific Trump problem is with people in 6 states who switched their vote. (a simplification, I know, but a decent starting point)

Silver Lynel

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Still no sympathy. The people that voted for trump will have to face the consequences.

You vote for a turd. You've still a elected a turd.

Did that person vote for Trump though?

Christy42

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Are you talking about people who just said they hope Trump wins and people who now saying they think he is doing a good job?

Or are you talking about people who actually voted for him in the election?

For people who didn't vote then surely "Hillary was worse" or "I just love seeing the MSM have a meltdown" are valid reasons to "support" Trump?

Personally, I got a right good laugh at the wailing and hysteria after Trump won but I never voted for Trump or donated to his campaign or anything so how is "I wanted him to win for the lolz" an invalid argument?

I had a good laugh the other day when a poster on here complained about having been deemed "pro-Trump" because they defended him or said maybe he wasn't all that bad.

One of the first replies was "No sympathy here. You wanted this. You got it."

Haha. What?

The assumption that if you are in any way sympathetic or not 100% anti-Trump then you must have wanted this president and you need to face the consequences is so stupid. What consequences?

If you are living in Ireland and you said "I hope The Donald beats Crooked Hillary" and then that's exactly what happened then how does that impact your life to the extent where it's a "you made your bed, now lie in it" situation? It's mad.

What will you all do when Trump finally leaves the White House?

Any of them really. None put forward a serious backing to their opinions. You can be not 100% anti Trump but I do expect people to be able to back them up. If I disagree with their logic I will debate them-partially to improve my own understanding of the situation.

The consequences depending on where you live and if he actually manages to do anything. For instance if manages to reduce trade then it will cut back on Irish trade to the US it will reduce the number of jobs in Ireland until we manage to pick up the slack elsewhere.

Presumably I will to try and refine my political opinions through debate and try and put forward reasonable arguments for my point of view after he leaves.

He has reduced a lot of education and research budgets. Many inventions have world wide consequences on quality of life. Obviously this one is harder to quantify but it is there. Then you move on to the global warming issues. America does not exist in a bubble. It's actions affect the rest of the world. Then you simply have the moral obligations. I mean lol thousands more may die due to lack of health insurance even if they are not my loved ones comes across as a little cold.

Leroy42

Silver Lynel wrote: »

No.

I go to work. I do my job. I get paid (not particularly well). I try to take care of my family. We take a vacation once in a while.

Is there a way that a different American President can make that better or worse for me?

How many people just survive paycheck to paycheck for many many years? The guy in charge of the USA comes and goes but their situation never changes.

I feel like people are constantly saying "you should be outraged over President Trump" but honestly I have more pressing issues to think about.

"What has this eejit tweeted out now" might be the extent of my outrage. I'm not earning more or less, I'm not struggling more or less.

Now, if you look back at the 6 states that swung from Blue to Red to give Trump the election. What kind of lives do the working, surviving, voting, people in those states live?

Do you take the same approach to politics over here? You could easily use the same arguments for most people in Ireland (or most democratic countries).

But you seem to be assuming that people come on here just to spout out their opinions. There are of course those people, but (and can only definitively speak for myself of course) many I would judge are open to other view points and like to tease out the points. The fact that one side (anti-Trump) is coming across as right most of the time is due to Trump not the people making the arguments.

I, not only on this forum but on others, like to read other peoples take on situations. The easiest example is the football forums. For any player, goal, red card etc, even within a single teams subforum there will be differing opinions and in many cases people put in large amounts of work with stats etc to back up their claims. But therein lies the usefulness of it.

Where it all falls down is when people simple post an opinion, then seem surprised that everyone else doesn't just congratulate them on it and accept it.

Silver Lynel

Leroy42 wrote: »

Do you take the same approach to politics over here? You could easily use the same arguments for most people in Ireland (or most democratic countries).

Maybe, to an extent.

My parents were working and struggling going back to the 70s and I find myself in pretty much the same spot myself. You work to survive and get by.

That's almost 50 years of the same routine across generations and no amount of change seems to have alleviated the basic pressure that is keeping your head above the water.

Nobody really cares though or wants to talk about it.

So I see the threads and the comments about "Trump Supporters" and I see that most people who voted Trump would have voted Republican if the candidate was a giant orange clown... oh wait... (ha! see how I try to ingratiate myself with the extreme anti-Trump crowd!)

I wonder though what actually are the opinions of the people who were so desperate that they would vote for such a poor candidate? Nobody seems to talk about them. It's Trump supporter this and Trump supporter that but what about the genuine people who thought that this was their candidate to make a difference.

Which 6 states changed their political allegiance and why? Are they being served by the current President or are they just as dissatisfied now as they were when they voted in November 2016?

I think those are more interesting questions that going after faceless Internet Trump Fanboys who may not even be 100% sincere in their beliefs.

Yet here we are, lazily harvesting the low hanging fruit.

spacecoyote

Silver Lynel wrote: »

No.

I go to work. I do my job. I get paid (not particularly well). I try to take care of my family. We take a vacation once in a while.

Is there a way that a different American President can make that better or worse for me?

Ah you see, you have been dramatically impacted by America yourself...any normal Irish person goes on holiday with their family, only an American goes on vacation

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Not the point.

People who can't vote but are allegedly "Trump Supporters" are largely irrelevant yet the focus seems to be almost entirely on them.

On an Irish forum, in essence, there can only be debate between people who support Trump & people who don't. Unless, that is, there is a sudden influx of American citizens from Red States to boards.ie

As such, they will be the focus of the majority of the interactions on this thread.

I would argue though, that they do actually have some relevance. Access to Social Media, etc... was seen as a massive influence in the election. If you have a campaign of Pro-Trump/Anti-Hilary messaging being spread by Trump Supporters, then they could influence the election process without having the ability to cast a vote.

oscarBravo

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I'm not sure it's a very good comparison.

American foreign policy has been... questionable... for a long time and I think they would still be doing their old "let's bomb the brown people" routine regardless who who had the power.

Yeah, that total absence of perspective is probably a large part of how an incompetent, mentally unstable buffoon became President. It's the whole "I can identify negatives on both sides, therefore it's impossible to distinguish between them" lazy analysis.

I'm just not convinced that everyone has to take it as seriously as you do.

I'm not asking anyone to take it seriously. I'm just pointing out that rooting for the slow implosion of one of the most influential countries on the planet, just because it's amusing, is idiotic.

I don't really care who's in charge of the USA. I'm interested in how the hell they managed to elect a pretty dysfunctional celebrity for President but I'm not interested in this preachy "you have to care because..." crap.

You don't have to care, just like you don't have to care about the environment, or your fellow human beings' welfare, or anything else. If your own personal amusement is more important to you than any of those things, you do you. But don't expect anyone to admire you for it.

Leroy42

I think part of the reason why people don't seem to discuss the reasons for people voting for Trump is that outside of a few areas, in seems to mainly boil down to either hating HC, hating the Dems, thinking that liberals are too powerful or some combination of all of them.

And in the main people don't want to overly label people with those are it comes across as condescending. Many Trump supporters will come out saying that the Dems have neglected their voters, that liberals don't care for them. As such they have a point, but they seem to offer little in the way of how Trump will help them. "He speaks the truth, tells it like it is" was just an excuse, IMO, for them going with their base instincts against their better judgment.

I think the decision they made was idiotic, I don't think the people are idiots. I do think they were taken in by a con man. But they were ripe to be taken in because they felt they had nowhere to go, nothing to lose. I get that.

What I don't understand if how they can seemingly ignore what Trump is doing (or not) and how he isn't working for them, he isn't focused on their problems. Why are they not standing up and demanding it from their champion? Why have they suddenly decided to accept the situation when only 7 months ago they wanted to make a statement, to shake things up.

demfad

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Well that sucks for you, I guess.

You can't influence the voting choices of 60+ million people living in another country so just do the best you can.

It still doesn't affect me.

If we have 4.7 million people in Ireland what % of those are severely affected by Trump, what % are moderately affected etc?

Were people in Ireland affected by Obama or Bush or Clinton? To what extent?

Remains to be seen. A clear policy of Trump and his senior advisor Bannon was the destruction of the European Union. If this came to be it would have a major affect on this country and on me and my family.

Trump makes a big war/nuclear war more likely. That affects everyone on the planet.

Trump was also brought into power by a dangerous axis involving right wing far right controlled big data companies and propaganda networks, Russia and RW media. This axis were also heavily involved in delivering Brexit and not a few regimes across Europe.

Their goal is also the destruction of civil rights and liberal values with the EU it's main enemy. Apart from regime change they control vast areas of the internet, controlling search results and harvesting data on users their personalities and buying/voting profiles.

They are racist, misogynistic and want to see the west returned to the old ways with woman subservient to man, and all white.

This is an international operation that must be fought by everyone.
Already, there is a climate denial group in Dublin, with some of their players like Farage trying to sow doubt about the EU here. If they move their election machine here, we are in serious trouble as our media will parrot them.

The words, ideas that this group puts into public discourse..words and ideas that haven't been heard in Europe for 70 years...are here again.

We are hearing them more and more in Ireland. These ideas are mirrored in legislation and electoral orders carried out by the RW Christian administration in Washington. And what happens there trickles down through the west.

Quin_Dub

I think one of the big issues here is that unlike Ireland/Europe etc. the Federal government actually has limited impact on the daily lives of the average person.

So far it must be said - Trumps actions/inactions haven't actually impacted the "man in the street" .

Healthcare hasn't changed yet , Taxes haven't changed.

Most of the daily "Government" impact for them comes from the State-houses which are , broadly speaking still very much business as usual.

The average American has far less interest in International affairs/opinions than someone here would for example..

To an extent it makes sense - For us , International stuff matters - We are hugely impacted by Europe/US etc. in terms of our economy and so on..

Joe the Plumber in the midwest ?..Not so much..

For Trump , the real impact will be when they do actually change Healthcare , or if Trump was to follow through on his threat of cutting the rebates etc.

For now , for the average blue-collar guy he's having next to no impact day to day.. that's the reality.

But that will change sooner or later.

demfad

NY Times catalogue of Trump lies: All in one place.

https://pastebin.com/p0WRyatU

LeinsterDub

But after the GOP’s seven-year drive to eliminate the Affordable Care Act collapsed on the Senate floor last week, Sanders is ready to introduce his own solution – government-run universal healthcare for all Americans.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/02/bernie-sanders-universal-healthcare-medicare-single-payer


Here you go GOP a repeal and replace plan that the dems will support. This health care impasse will be over before the end of September

Billy86

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/02/bernie-sanders-universal-healthcare-medicare-single-payer
Here you go GOP a repeal and replace plan that the dems will support. This health care impasse will be over before the end of September

Not going to happen, but it would be hilarious to see Collins & Murkowski as two people who seem to actually care about healthcare, as well as McCain wanting to do something positive in his dying days, get behind that and push it over the line. :pac:

LeinsterDub

Billy86 wrote: »

Not going to happen, but it would be hilarious to see Collins & Murkowski as two people who seem to actually care about healthcare, as well as McCain wanting to do something positive in his dying days, get behind that and push it over the line. :pac:

I know it's a world class troll by Sanders

demfad

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I think one of the big issues here is that unlike Ireland/Europe etc. the Federal government actually has limited impact on the daily lives of the average person.

So far it must be said - Trumps actions/inactions haven't actually impacted the "man in the street" .

Healthcare hasn't changed yet , Taxes haven't changed.

Unless youre from a black, hispanic, jewish etc, female, from the LGBT community, an illegal immigrant and so on.

Even white supremacists have noticed big changes: They can say and do what they want and believe with more or less impunity now.




BTW: Amy Siskind has chronicled everything that this administartion has done in its entirety.

There is a lot going on.

https://medium.com/@Amy_Siskind

For Reals

It was leaked that Trump dictated Don jnr's press statement regarding the Russian/Clinton meeting. This is the meeting Trump never knew anything about mind.
So Huckabee-Saunders says he was defending his son like any father would and the statement is factual anyway.

So we'd Don Jnr. release the emails and statement ahead of the press. Trump commending him on the release and admitting to having no knowledge of the meeting.
Then it's leaked Trump dictated the press release, even though he wasn't there and wasn't told anything about it, seemingly.
So when Trump was commending his son on the statement, it was a statement he put together.
And Huckabee-Saunders blames the Democrats for trying to keep a nothing story in the press.

The minds behind Trump's presidency, (Roger Stone et al.) played the discontented people well and as long as Trump speaks about crooked Hillary, Fake News and looking after American workers, it could be years before the Trump grass roots get wise.
Health is the biggest problem for Trump, if he succeeds. If he gets his way and millions of blue collar workers lose their health insurance, that's when he'll lose his grass roots. The kind of people, who genuinely blindly support him, are happy to blame the Gays, Jews, Muslims, Mexicans and Clinton for all their ills. Hate crimes are on the rise and he took a pop at Transgender soldiers. The most despicable thing is he's putting people in danger for distractionary purposes. I doubt he paid Mexican immigrants much heed pre-election, especially when they were working for buttons.

demfad

For Reals wrote: »

It was leaked that Trump dictated Don jnr's press statement regarding the Russian/Clinton meeting. This is the meeting Trump never knew anything about mind.
So Huckabee-Saunders says he was defending his son like any father would and the statement is factual anyway.

So we'd Don Jnr. release the emails and statement ahead of the press. Trump commending him on the release and admitting to having no knowledge of the meeting.
Then it's leaked Trump dictated the press release, even though he wasn't there and wasn't told anything about it, seemingly.
So when Trump was commending his son on the statement, it was a statement he put together.
And Huckabee-Saunders blames the Democrats for trying to keep a nothing story in the press.

The minds behind Trump's presidency, (Roger Stone et al.) played the discontented people well and as long as Trump speaks about crooked Hillary, Fake News and looking after American workers, it could be years before the Trump grass roots get wise.
Health is the biggest problem for Trump, if he succeeds. If he gets his way and millions of blue collar workers lose their health insurance, that's when he'll lose his grass roots. The kind of people, who genuinely blindly support him, are happy to blame the Gays, Jews, Muslims, Mexicans and Clinton for all their ills. Hate crimes are on the rise and he took a pop at Transgender soldiers. The most despicable thing is he's putting people in danger for distractionary purposes. I don't he pays Mexican immigrants much heed when they are working for buttons.

If he is to survive years he must do something about the Mueller investigation. His antics with JR is more clear cut evidence of obstruction.

He needed the healthcare win to give him more power over the Republicans (they are all in the same creek if they pass healthcare). Now he has no capital to get away with removing Mueller.

He will try to remove him or some kind of coup before he goes down, but this wont last years now.

I think we will see Trump and Brexit implode within 12 months and some of the main reasons will be connected.

Leroy42

The fact that Trump golf course in Florida applied for 75 (I think it was that) special visas for summer foreign workers would, for any other politician than ran on such a anti immigrant and get American Jobs back to Americans platform, have been hugely damaging.

The fact that hardly anyone, not even his own supporters, have any issue with the blatant hypocrisy of it shows how they are really prepared to put up with anything.

Russia, healthcare, taxes for the rich, NK, China. All these can seem like they are distant, complicated. But this one is pretty simple. Man says that he will bring back jobs to US. Then he applies for special dispensation to give jobs to cheap imported labour.

Quin_Dub

demfad wrote: »

Unless youre from a black, hispanic, jewish etc, female, from the LGBT community, an illegal immigrant and so on.

Even white supremacists have noticed big changes: They can say and do what they want and believe with more or less impunity now.




BTW: Amy Siskind has chronicled everything that this administartion has done in its entirety.

There is a lot going on.

https://medium.com/@Amy_Siskind

I wouldn't disagree , however none (or very very few) of the above are people that voted for Trump last November that previously voted for Obama...

Those guys, have not yet felt any direct negative impacts.

When they do, via Healthcare or Tax Reform then and only then will we see where the land truly lies in terms of 2018 and 2020 elections.

Quin_Dub

demfad wrote: »

If he is to survive years he must do something about the Mueller investigation. His antics with JR is more clear cut evidence of obstruction.

He needed the healthcare win to give him more power over the Republicans (they are all in the same creek if they pass healthcare). Now he has no capital to get away with removing Mueller.

He will try to remove him or some kind of coup before he goes down, but this wont last years now.

I think we will see Trump and Brexit implode within 12 months and some of the main reasons will be connected.

The suggestion being made is that moving Kelly from DHS gives him a potential out here.

He moves Sessions from AG to DHS citing Sessions passion for Immigration reform etc. etc. allowing him to bring in a new AG that doesn't have a conflict of interest and thus negating the need for Mueller.

It also means he's not "firing" Sessions.

Not sure he'd get another AG directly confirmed , but he could play musical chairs with the cabinet so that the confirmation hearings are not about a new AG but for some other role.

Leroy42

I could be wrong, but I think that no matter who the new AG is, since Mueller has been installed and the investigation is ongoing, Mueller would have be be removed and that would need specific reasons and couldn't be done simply because the AG wants it

Now he managed to get rid of Comey, but that lead directly to Mueller, and even bigger problem it would seem. Would they try to get rid of Mueller at this point?

I also think that any move against Mueller will see an immediate case being taken against each of Trump Jr, Kushner and Manafort in the courts in terms of both attempted collusion and breaking the Logan Act. It would also possibly expedite the Flynn matter.

Trump is in all sorts of problems, with each possible out seemingly leading to even more problems.

InTheTrees

In case anyone missed the side show farce of Trumps speech to the Boy Scouts:

In spite of the tradition of presidents giving non-political speeches to the boy scouts, trump laced his speech with the same paranoid political nonsense that he cant seem to let go of.

The Boy Scouts organisation had to to issue an apology for the Presidents speech. That's a rare enough occurrence.

But just as he cant leave anything alone, trump gave an interview to the Wall Street Journal in which he claimed the boy scouts leadership had called him after his talk and told him it was the best speech ever delivered to their organisation ever in thsi history, and that the standing ovation lasted so long it went on for five minutes after he had left.

All. Lies.

So now the Boy Scouts have had to refute that story too.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boy-scouts-disputes-trumps-greatest-ever-claim-about-his-speech/

demfad

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The suggestion being made is that moving Kelly from DHS gives him a potential out here.

He moves Sessions from AG to DHS citing Sessions passion for Immigration reform etc. etc. allowing him to bring in a new AG that doesn't have a conflict of interest and thus negating the need for Mueller.

It also means he's not "firing" Sessions.

Not sure he'd get another AG directly confirmed , but he could play musical chairs with the cabinet so that the confirmation hearings are not about a new AG but for some other role.

Negating the need?

The need will be negated when the investigations are finished. The Senate is already preparing for a bill that will require a judicial review before removing the special prosecutor.

Trump may try, but he will not survive any removal of Mueller under any circumstances.

And leaving Mueller there means he doesn't survive anyway.