Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Ozymandius2011

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Yeah I can't understand how people don't seem to get that the nazis as a movement committed the worst human atrocities in the 20th century and no right thinking person can try and equate the nazis with good in any way.

I think Hitler and Stalin more or less killed the same numbers of people.

Ozymandius2011

ThisRegard wrote: »

Oh, you're being selective in what particular segments you'll take notice of for arguments sake?

On my TV Special Report was on when I posted that point.

Christy42

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I think Hitler and Stalin more or less killed the same numbers of people.

Is this really where you want to take this argument? Semantic arguments over whether or not nazis are the worst or just top tier horrific?

Beechwoodspark

red ears wrote: »

You didn't watch his press conference did you? Because he spells out who he is referring to in it.

I watched it. He said many on both sides are fine people. So many nazis many white supremacists many kkk are fine people according to trump.

ThisRegard

I'm catching the video of the conference now, it's well worth catching to see the madness of the man, he even takes a pop at McCain when his name was mentioned.

Itssoeasy

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I think Hitler and Stalin more or less killed the same numbers of people.

And ?

ThisRegard

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

On my TV Special Report was on when I posted that point.

They're hardly cheer leading him now, is your TV showing that?

mcmoustache

red ears wrote: »

Which was obvious to anyone who followed it. The mainstream media really are a disgrace these days. Why not report accurately they don't need to be spinning the narrative to suit a particular agenda. Anyone who looked at the footage could see violence from both sides. Do the media think people don't read beyond their pages.

A lot of it is pretty bad to be fair. CNN and it's many talking heads at the same time drives me nuts as does Wolf "Breaking News from hours ago" Blitzer. They have some decent reporters and presenters though Fox has loads of sycophantic Trumpers on the opinion shows but their actual news reporting can be OK.

That said, most of us here, given how readily available his words are, have heard this guy ourselves. He's on TV a lot. If you haven't seen or heard him, you should check him out. It's not the media spinning him negatively, it's him.

Itssoeasy

https://twitter.com/nbcnightlynews/status/897582798407704576

Well that's one explanation, the other could be the president of the United States is nuts and the comments on Saturday were his true feelings and Mondays were after he was forced to do so.

Water John

Wolf makes the point that his four grandparents died in the holocaust. That sears deeply into your conciousness.
Fully understand his involvement, this is personal.

relax carry on

Itssoeasy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/nbcnightlynews/status/897582798407704576

Well that's one explanation, the other could be the president of the United States is nuts and the comments on Saturday were his true feelings and Mondays were after he was forced to do so.

So the president "went rogue". Must look up the odds on him being removed for being mentally unfit.

Itssoeasy

Water John wrote: »

Wolf makes the point that his four grandparents died in the holocaust. That sears deeply into your conciousness.
Fully understand his involvement, this is personal.

It's not just him, it's people on both sides of the political divide of a certain age either have personal memories of the nazis or an immediate family member died fighter this evil like Orrin hatch who tweeted about his brother dying.

This has nothing to do with with political correctness or being on the left or a liberal or whatever other issult people want to use. This is human decency and knowing that nazis and white supremacists and members of the KKK and what they believe in in sick and twisted.

derb12

Just watched the press conference and just wow!
This is truly astonishing stuff and it'll be very interesting to see the backlash.
It reminds me of the campaign claim that Obama founded ISIS and Hillary was their MVP! Afterwards, all of his apologists were giving us the nuanced "what he really meant was" interpretations for a day or two, before he basically just threw them all under the bus and doubled down on his claim.

It seems to me that there are several threads to this saga which are all tightening Trump's noose
- obviously Mueller and his ongoing enquiry which seems to be advancing
- hoaxes like the Seth Rich story being challenged in court which might end up doing some peripheral damage to the likes of Hannity
- Trump's ongoing own goals like his "many sides" statement
- his ineffectual governing with no major legislative achievements to date other than appointing a supreme court justice
- his persistant attacks on the RNC big boys like Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan etc

I find Trump totally abhorrent and consider the 45th presidency to be a very dark chapter in American history. I'm pretty sure that it'll be a less than 4 year chapter.

However, I'm worried about how things will be post-Trump. Pence's politics are also abhorrent to me, but he is not a madman and would be a competent (and hence much more dangerous) president than Trump. The Koch brothers have totally changed the landscape of American politics. They have funded campaigns (in particular attack ads against the opponents) of countless sympathetic republicans at every level in the political system - from school boards, city councils, state legislatures, senate, house and gubernatorial races - but did not manage to get their way with the presidency. Trump refused to kowtow to the Kochs (and slagged off his primary opponents for seeking their patronage) but they got their man in the vice-presidency. Pence addressed a Koch event just a few days ago and is well in with the Kochs. I can't help but interpret some republicans protection of Mueller in this light and wonder do they just want Mueller to proceed so that Trump can be dumped in favour of Mike Pence.

Ozymandius2011

I will concede one criticism. He always takes the bait from the press. When he is criticised (often unfairly in my opinion) he always has to have the last word, and that drags him off message like on infrastructure. He needs to cut that out.

mcmoustache

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I will concede one criticism. He always takes the bait from the press. When he is criticised (often unfairly in my opinion) he always has to have the last word, and that drags him off message like on infrastructure. He needs to cut that out.

He gets asked questions about things he said and things that happened. That's their job.

ThisRegard

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well that's one explanation, the other could be the president of the United States is nuts and the comments on Saturday were his true feelings and Mondays were after he was forced to do so.

Many are saying it's just his opinions, this is an interesting thread especially for putting his "what's the alt right" question into context.

https://twitter.com/sarahposner/status/897556689087541250

super_furry

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I will concede one criticism. He always takes the bait from the press. When he is criticised (often unfairly in my opinion) he always has to have the last word, and that drags him off message like on infrastructure. He needs to cut that out.

Unfairly? Man, he's defending Nazi's and the KKK after they murdered someone.

In 2017.

Ozymandius2011

Condoleeza Rice, an African American and Bush's second Secretary of State, argued for keeping the statues on historical grounds. Shows the Left dont necessarily speak for minorities on these issues.

Ozymandius2011

super_furry wrote: »

Unfairly? Man, he's defending Nazi's and the KKK after they murdered someone.

In 2017.

If you listened to what he said you would find he stated that not all on that protest were Nazis and the KKK and he again condemned White Supremacism. This is a repeat of the campaign last year where he answered the question 1000 times and the press kept asking it for reasons of Identity Politics,.

super_furry

Look if you're in a march where people are waving Nazi flags and KKK flags, you're in a Nazi match. You're marching for their ideals and what they represent. Everyone marching in that march was endorsing white supremacy and Tump in defending then is doing the same.

And they murdered someone.

It's indefensible.

mcmoustache

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Condoleeza Rice, an African American and Bush's second Secretary of State, argued for keeping the statues on historical grounds. Shows the Left dont necessarily speak for minorities on these issues.

Are you saying most blacks share the same opinions of Condi? Cos it sound like you're saying that. I can break it down for you if you like.

StringerBell

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Condoleeza Rice, an African American and Bush's second Secretary of State, argued for keeping the statues on historical grounds. Shows the Left dont necessarily speak for minorities on these issues.

Because one black person said they should keep the statues? Jeez thats a reach.

The statutes are debated on and voted on democratically whether they are to be removed or not, what is the issue with democratic process?

Its not like the statue in question for the weekend was going to be destroyed it was being put in a museum! Has it no historical merit in a museum? These statues were put up quite some time after he civil war to serve one purpose.

Removing the reverence rather then the remembrance seems perfectly reasonable in 2017 once it is the will of the majority of the people don't you think?

It is a bi-partisan thing, Republicans and Democrats are both pushing for removal of statues. So that would be left and right, right?

super_furry

super_furry wrote: »

Unfairly? Man, he's defending Nazi's and the KKK after they murdered someone.

In 2017.

He really didn't. Not even remotely. In fact, he did exactly the opposite.

super_furry

Deleted User wrote: »

He really didn't. Not even remotely. In fact, he did exactly the opposite.

He did. You know he did. You may not want to admit it to yourself but that's what happened.

Donald Trump stands alongside neo-Nazis and the KKK and the likes of David Duke are welcoming him with open arms. And you know it.

derb12

I just saw gen Kelly's demeanour during that press conference.
Unless he was photographed in a deliberately misleading manner (which is entirely possible) then it looks like he may quit this administration.
That would be a body blow for trump.

mcmoustache

Deleted User wrote: »

He really didn't. Not even remotely. In fact, he did exactly the opposite.

That would be true if he didn't engage in whataboutery and false equivalences. But he did so what you said isn't true. Why do Trumpers say so many things that aren't true?

My name is URL

super_furry wrote: »

Look if you're in a march where people are waving Nazi flags and KKK flags, you're in a Nazi match.

It really is as simple as that. No amount of mental gymnastics changes the fact.

People made the decision to march under that banner. At best it's dangerously ignorant of them, and Trump has said nothing to indicate that.

It's the same old ****... mention liberals and hope that supporters cling to that above all else.

InTheTrees

derb12 wrote: »

I just saw gen Kelly's demeanour during that press conference.
Unless he was photographed in a deliberately misleading manner (which is entirely possible) then it looks like he may quit this administration.
That would be a body blow for trump.

SO much for people thinking he could keep trump under control. What was he thinking? That he'd made a terrible mistake? That he was going to lose it with trump later? Resignation? Get bannon fired?

Rjd2

https://twitter.com/AndrewKirell/status/897568148857204739

Consider the source here, this is pretty brutal. You will struggle to find many conservatives who will defend his performance tonight and yep the vast majority have probably called out Antifa also.

Ozymandius2011

Im watching Anderson Cooper 360 now. There are 5 panelists, of which one is a Trump voter (Parris Dennard). Joseph Pinion is being called a "Trump supporter", but last night on CNN he admitted he did not vote for Trump. CNN Republicans are usually Never Trumpers. In contrast the Fox Democrats like Juan Williams and Jessica Tarlov were Obama supporters.

rossie1977

Cnn employed Jeffrey Lord, Kayleigh McEnany and Jason Miller as talking heads up to the last week or so.

Fox democrats is an oxymoron in itself

InTheTrees

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Im watching Anderson Cooper 360 now. There are 5 panelists, of which one is a Trump voter (Parris Dennard). Joseph Pinion is being called a "Trump supporter", but last night on CNN he admitted he did not vote for Trump. CNN Republicans are usually Never Trumpers. In contrast the Fox Democrats like Juan Williams and Jessica Tarlov were Obama supporters.

Most channels are actually having a hard time getting any republicans on to defend trump.

Ozymandius2011

InTheTrees wrote: »

Most channels are actually having a hard time getting any republicans on to defend trump.

Newt is doing a good job on Fox now.

wonderfullife

derb12 wrote: »

I just saw gen Kelly's demeanour during that press conference.
Unless he was photographed in a deliberately misleading manner (which is entirely possible) then it looks like he may quit this administration.
That would be a body blow for trump.

Scroll to 0:45 of this clip. It's sad to see in some ways but he winces, shakes his head, and looks down.

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/897616420854317056

Peregrinus

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I will concede one criticism. He always takes the bait from the press. When he is criticised (often unfairly in my opinion) he always has to have the last word, and that drags him off message like on infrastructure. He needs to cut that out.

It drags him off message, and on to revealing what he really believes, what he really thinks, what he really feels.

And the real Donald Trump is an ugly thing. Which is why he's having the problems he's having.

It's not bias, or a mainstream media conspiracy, or political correctness, or anything of the kind. It's Donald letting the mask slip.

(Which, I agree with you, he does quite a lot. Eventually, it will be the undoing of him.)

DeanAustin

super_furry wrote: »

Look if you're in a march where people are waving Nazi flags and KKK flags, you're in a Nazi match. You're marching for their ideals and what they represent. Everyone marching in that march was endorsing white supremacy and Tump in defending then is doing the same.

And they murdered someone.

It's indefensible.

Didn't he unequivocally condemn the person who drove the car into the crowd? If you want to have a pop at Trump, there is enough material there to make a strong argument against him without manipulating language to insinuate that he is defending the murderer.

BuilderPlumber

super_furry wrote: »

He did. You know he did. You may not want to admit it to yourself but that's what happened.

Donald Trump stands alongside neo-Nazis and the KKK and the likes of David Duke are welcoming him with open arms. And you know it.

Donald Trump as the president of the US should not in any guise be even seen to stand alongside such garbage of humanity even remotely. It is truly time to either clean up his act and his regime or else fold the regime and run new elections in 2018. Trump seems to be very compromised by very bad people and the likes of Steve Bannon should not be anywhere in this government. David Duke and other unhelpful negative individuals have too much of a say. Trump should completely distance himself from any form of racist filth if he truly has a chance to redeem himself.

All this extreme hostility towards 'the left', Muslims, Iranians, African Americans, Obama, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba. etc. is ALL the doing of evil KKK and neo-Nazi supporters who actually have double standards. David Duke is perfectly happy for example to support racist and warmongering policies on Iran under its current moderate president but actually was quite happy to go to Tehran and meet up with hardline forces who denied the holocaust. They presumably would have loved to see Ebrahim Raisi win that election in Iran but are sour that the moderate won. Another example of this KKK influenced US regime's complete double standards is while it is stacked with holocaust deniers, it has 100% support for Israeli war crimes. Also it gives 100% support to Saudi Arabia despite its anti-Islam rhetoric.

This current US regime should do the decent thing and resign and run the elections again. It really has come to a point where the Republican party has become not fit to govern across many levels. The current US administration has become like a third world regime mixing sectarianism, racism and negativity to hide incompetence. The fact that it did not even win the election should be legal cause enough for it to be disbanded and the election rerun as soon as possible. A racist KKK regime run by a compromised president controlled by neo-Nazis should not exist in the White House and Capitol Hill. As flawed as America has been already, this move towards an incompetent Nazi regime will only make things much worse and make the Dubya Bush administration look perfect by comparison.

jaykay74

If you march alongside people holding nazi flags and giving nazi salutes then you are not a fine person.

BuilderPlumber

InTheTrees wrote: »

Most channels are actually having a hard time getting any republicans on to defend trump.

That is a good thing. While the Republican party at present is stacked with very bad people, I am sure there are also many moderates in it who are ashamed of all this. Let's hope they are in the majority and can take their party back from racist, sectarian, warmongering KKK, neo-Nazi and Tea Party filth. Pressure let's hope can come and a new moderate government can form to replace this current hardline, racist, sectarian regime before this regime does any real damage. If Bannon had his way, his regime would declare war on Venezuela, Iran, Cuba and North Korea for starters and may end up going to war with China as he has said before. The US needs to improve relations with those 5 countries and review 100% its foreign policies.

Ozymandius2011

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Condoleeza Rice, an African American and Bush's second Secretary of State, argued for keeping the statues on historical grounds. Shows the Left dont necessarily speak for minorities on these issues.

Who's 'the left' here ?

BuilderPlumber

jaykay74 wrote: »

If you march alongside people holding nazi flags and giving nazi salutes then you are not a fine person.

When one researches people like David Duke one sees what a horrid person he is. Member of the US Nazi party and the KKK, a chancer and conman to boot who embezzled money from his Nazi organisations. He has also joined the 2 main US parties at times to have a go at being a state governor. Duke and his pal Bannon should not be in any way associated with the US government.

The irony of the whole thing is the US would be the very first to condemn an event like what happened in Charlottesville if it happened somewhere else. Let's say if there was a neo-Nazi festival in Pyongyang, North Korea that celebrated all things holocaust denial, and let's say (unlike the Charlottesville situation) no one dies. You could well imagine this current regime's response. The fact remains though that what happened last Saturday happened in America and not North Korea and that innocent people did die. The fact also remains that the American president and his regime have not done enough to address homegrown white neo-Nazi KKK racist/sectarian terrorism. To quote Trump's pal Dubya Bush ironically (never thought one of his quotes would actually be of use!): you are either with us or with the terrorists. Well, Trump, it's your decision. Are you with the American people who you claim to represent or are you with American terrorist criminals who are in the minority and stand for all that most Americans reject.

ECO_Mental

What happened here is Trump can't be wrong in anything.....

He came out two days after his both sides remark, and there was uproar He was forced out to do a retraction of sorts reluctantly and I could be wrong but he said it after he rambled on about trade first.

This annoyed him because with his mental illness and narcissism he CANNOT BE WRONG. So first opportunity off the leash he has to try and prove he was right all along.

SAD

Samaris

Taking a step back, I notice that there is actually a pretty small minority of people doing the defending. An awful lot of us, even those of us that vehemently disagreed with each other in the run-up to the elections and even through the Inaugeration etc., are pretty much in agreement that Nazis is way too far.

Finally, after a two years of deeper and deeper polarisation and harsh disagreement, this is not about left and right, and I for one welcome that. We still can find common ground, even if it took Nazis to make the more passionate amongst us (left and right) realise that there are bigger enemies out there than each other.

aloyisious

A slant to the Charlotesville troubles: things may turn uglier when the funeral of Heather Heyer takes place. Reportedly, allegedly [what- ever term one chooses to use] the Daily Stormer has asked that people try and find out when and where her funeral is to happen. The report is carried by Independent and by rawstory that Daily Stormer's system administrator Weev posted a call on the Daily Stormer website for like-minded people to protest her funeral, taking a page from the Westboro Church protest, referring to the deceased as a fat skank. The rawstory version carries a screen-grab photo-image of the person it identifies as Weev, giving him a first name and surname

One alleged source for the Daily Stormer story, by tweet, is Laura Loomer.

The website has since moved to the dark web – meaning it is not available on normal internet browsers – after its registration was cancelled by GoDaddy Inc and denied by Google.

elefant

Samaris wrote: »

Taking a step back, I notice that there is actually a pretty small minority of people doing the defending. An awful lot of us, even those of us that vehemently disagreed with each other in the run-up to the elections and even through the Inaugeration etc., are pretty much in agreement that Nazis is way too far.

Finally, after a two years of deeper and deeper polarisation and harsh disagreement, this is not about left and right, and I for one welcome that. We still can find common ground, even if it took Nazis to make the more passionate amongst us (left and right) realise that there are bigger enemies out there than each other.

If all else fails, we can always fall back on the Nazis. Bringing people together since 1939.

volchitsa

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Condoleeza Rice, an African American and Bush's second Secretary of State, argued for keeping the statues on historical grounds. Shows the Left dont necessarily speak for minorities on these issues.

So was Condoleeza Rice on the march? Like, in a million years?
Because you seem to be saying that she must have had some sympathy for the White Supremacists who were marching. What evidence is there of that?

Isn't it possible to be against removing the statues for historical reasons, while being just as much against Neo Nazis and White Supremacists who want to keep the statues for ideological reasons?

Beechwoodspark

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I will concede one criticism. He always takes the bait from the press. When he is criticised (often unfairly in my opinion) he always has to have the last word, and that drags him off message like on infrastructure. He needs to cut that out.

He won't change at this stage.

Akrasia

Make America Great again.

If you ask Americans what America's greatest ever achievement was, a lot of them will say it was defeating the Nazis in WW2

Their entire national identity was making the world safe for democracy, leaders of the free world.

Now we have a literal Nazi sympathiser in the white house appealing to a base of white supremacists and racists and taunting other states with first strike Nuclear armageddon....

Anyone who signed up to fight the Nazis in WW2 must be sickened by what has happened to their party. Anyone in the military, including the generals in his administration, must be feeling physically sick to think that their name is tarnished and they are associated with this vile administration

I look forward to the spate of resignations today and in the coming days as those few men and women of integrity in his administration abandon all hope that he can be influenced for the better.

Bluefoam

Americas leadership of the free world was reliant on the support of the free world... They have been a center of trade, business and communication. Their authority while shelf appointed was supported by their allies. Once the rest of the world begins to move their interests away from America, there will be no going back. A new center of enterprise and authority will emerge, we will continue to work together, America will probably stay an important part of that... but with a greatly diminished role. If they don't resolve their internal problems soon they will end up suffering, and losing allot of their wealth.

Unfortunately Trump is a result of what the American people want... He is not the catalyst for the current culture, but he does support and encourage the underlying sentiment in the country. It will take them a long time to get over the consequences of what they are doing now.

BuilderPlumber

Akrasia wrote: »

Make America Great again.

If you ask Americans what America's greatest ever achievement was, a lot of them will say it was defeating the Nazis in WW2

Their entire national identity was making the world safe for democracy, leaders of the free world.

Now we have a literal Nazi sympathiser in the white house appealing to a base of white supremacists and racists and taunting other states with first strike Nuclear armageddon....

Anyone who signed up to fight the Nazis in WW2 must be sickened by what has happened to their party. Anyone in the military, including the generals in his administration, must be feeling physically sick to think that their name is tarnished and they are associated with this vile administration

I look forward to the spate of resignations today and in the coming days as those few men and women of integrity in his administration abandon all hope that he can be influenced for the better.

The Nazis represented a horrible ideology and formed a horrid government that occupied a superpower state comprising of current day Germany, Austria, Scandinavia, France, and Eastern Europe. They ruled over many nationalities and over citizens of 2 main religions. Those deemed to be 'inferior' on racial, sectarian or political grounds were executed, imprisoned or deported.

Today's American regime sadly echoes a lot of what Nazism stands for. Who is precisely to blame for this is not known in its entirity but Steve Bannon clearly is one of the key players here. Bannon in turn is a representative of others such as David Duke of the KKK. A lot of things about this regime do not add up to democracy:

1 The people did not elect it. An undemocratic organisation styling itself electoral college did. Hilary Clinton won the popular vote and that should stand.
2 Trump clearly is a spokesperson for others and is deeply compromised by people who did not even run for election.
3 Bannon has been given way too much power and never stood for any electable office.

It is time for this government to be disbanded, replaced with some type of provisional interim government made up of moderates and to run a new election in 2018. All racists, sectarians and the like should not be allowed to run. The KKK and American Nazism needs to be listed as terrorist groups and not to be allowed be part of American governments. The modern Republican party is too associated with rightwing fanatics. It seemed many a Republican candidate last year was a rightwing fascist type which each trying to outdo their rivals to show who was the most hardline. That says it all about this party and why it needs to be reformed.