Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

BuilderPlumber

Bluefoam wrote: »

Americas leadership of the free world was reliant on the support of the free world... They have been a center of trade, business and communication. Their authority while shelf appointed was supported by their allies. Once the rest of the world begins to move their interests away from America, there will be no going back. A new center of enterprise and authority will emerge, we will continue to work together, America will probably stay an important part of that... but with a greatly diminished role. If they don't resolve their internal problems soon they will end up suffering, and losing allot of their wealth.

Unfortunately Trump is a result of what the American people want... He is not the catalyst for the current culture, but he does support and encourage the underlying sentiment in the country. It will take them a long time to get over the consequences of what they are doing now.

+1. 1st paragraph very true. While Trump spoke to certain Americans, he still lost that election to Clinton. An undemocratic organisation allowed him win. Ironically, if that was to happen elsewhere, America would be very critical.

Sadly, racists and sectarians do exist in ALL societies. The political establishment should not ever pander to this evil though. The Republican party sadly has pandered to these types and that is what is wrong. Trump won the internal process within that party because he learned the script: the modern Republican party has become the party that represents hardline racist, sectarian bigots and Trump sold an image to them. The Republican party should NEVER have allowed itself to become virtually the political wing of the KKK and that's the problem. This whole thing is deeper than Trump. Trump is a stooge, Ted Cruz would have been a stooge, Dubya Bush was a stooge for a racist organisation. The mask of Republican party has slipped and its racist attitude that inspired violence like Charlottesville and the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords is something that is shocking. The moderates in the party should act to take it back from these neo-Nazis and people like Trump, Ted Cruz, etc. should never agree to front for such a vile organisation.

Larbre34

It truly looks like the beginning of the end of this presidency. Sure, America will get Mike Pence for 3.5 years, but you have to envision him keeping his head down to try and retrieve Republican support and take a few easy wins. Congress are still too divided advance the Tea Party agenda.

As for Trump, I agree about the resignations likely to start. People like Mattis Kelly and McMaster are right wing military types, but they must be feeling faint at being associated with equivocation around neo-nazis and the klan, true enemies of the state that they swore to defend against over long careers.

Soon all Trump will have left around him are Bannon, Miller, Sessions (maybe) and the family (some of). That will build momentum for Pence, Ryan, McConnell, the newly liberated Priebus to oust Donald in a very American coup.

Leroy42

One of the points that seems to be brought up is that the alt right were only protesting about the removal of a statue. Trump even alluded to it by saying that Washington and Jefferson were both slave owners and as such we would end up changing the culture.

But wasn't that what the civil war was about in the first place. Drawing a line under the previous norms and sticking out for a new way, a world of equality. And the confederates lost. They scream "USA, USA" on their marches but they seem to be totally opposed to the actual underlying position of the USA.

Slavery took place and is shameful and regrettable, but at the point of the end of the civil war people had a choice. Continue on with what was clearly a defeated ideology or accept the mistakes of the past, learn form them and work to insure they don't happen again. Those people walking with the confederate flag, the nazi flag etc, they can't accept this.

On another point, much has been made of these statues. Many of these statues were only put up in the 1920's, when the KKK were a very large organisation. But even if we were to accept that these statues should remain, would the right be willing to accept that alongside these statues memorials for all the lost slaves should be erected? That descriptions and depictions of what slavery actually entailed should also be put up. That for any statue for the likes of Lee, that a statue representing the slaves he fought to keep in slavery should be built. For that is culture as well.

And those people claiming that Lee deserves a statue. Do you realise what this man was fighting for? What the country would be like if he actually won? Continued slavery, continued beatings, starvation, murders. Treated an entire section of the population of the world as inferior. Not just in terms of education, or technology. But fundamentally inferior. No better than a stray dog. To be owned and treated on whatever whim its owner sees fit.

Those men and women that gave you such joy through sport, tv, politics, the arts. So the likes of Michael Jordan would never have been known. Tiger Woods would have been lucky to get to park cars at a golf club. Carl Lewis, the man who typified USA at the LA olympics. Jesse Owens giving Hitler one in the eye. The US military would be half the force it is as large sections of the population wouldn't be trusted in battle. NFL would be a second rate competition as a large portion of the players are black.

Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Sydney Poitier, Denzel Washington. None of these would be the people they are, we would know nothing of them. That is what these statues represent

Peregrinus

Larbre34 wrote: »

It truly looks like the beginning of the end of this presidency . . . .

It's been looking like the beginning of the end for this presidency since the beginning of the presidency. But that's not enough; what the world needs is the end of the end of this presidency, and there's still a way to go before we can hope for that.

Water John

they didn't just chant USA. They chanted, blood and soil. We all know where that comes from.
The statue was erected to let black people, know their place. It was on the demarcation line. It' isn't just a statue.

Mitch Connor

I am actually starting to really worry about what the end of his presidency could bring.

We just saw someone deliberately murdered over what some claim the defense of history/culture in respect of a statue celebrating a man that wanted to end the United States and keep black people in chains.

If these alt-right violent racists see their cheerleading and enabling leader impeached, what will their reaction be? I'm not thinking civil war, but there could be a lot of riots, violence and death on foot of any move to remove Donald Trump.

Nody

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If these alt-right violent racists see their cheerleading and enabling leader impeached, what will their reaction be? I'm not thinking civil war, but there could be a lot of riots, violence and death on foot of any move to remove Donald Trump.

I hope they would try to attempt a coup simply because the American military would hand these wannabe soldiers their asses so fast in a show of how a real organized force works while cementing their destruction for the next 20 years.

Btw; here's a comment from 82nd Airborne when asked about a guy wearing a cap with their badge.
https://twitter.com/82ndABNDiv/status/897070974830612480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2Fentry%2F82nd-airborne-nazi-salute-charlottesville_us_5992ad61e4b08a247276f35e
https://twitter.com/82ndABNDiv/status/897192664373899264?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2Fentry%2F82nd-airborne-nazi-salute-charlottesville_us_5992ad61e4b08a247276f35e
https://twitter.com/82ndABNDiv/status/897071275918725125/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2Fentry%2F82nd-airborne-nazi-salute-charlottesville_us_5992ad61e4b08a247276f35e

StringerBell

They will cause unrest yes, but Trump himself isn't really their guy. His policies, his leanings, his willingness to appeal to them gets him so far. He is not enough for the hard line though, evidenced by the opinion of him that was stated at the weekend by a leading member of the neo Nazis. "He lets a Jew walk around with his daughter"

Trump, having no actual position on anything will never fully belong anywhere, he has been both a democrat and a republican, an advocate for climate change and a climate change denier, a critic of "the swamp" and a contributor to "the swamp" a critic of companies outsourcing jobs from America and a CEO who outsourced jobs from America, against foreign workers being hired over Americans while hiring foreign workers (applying for special visas!) Over Americans

He stands for nothing but himself when it comes down to it and will never truly be part of anything other then his own family business.

For Forks Sake

Just a thought, the US could also do with considering whether an electoral system conceived prior to the French Revolution remain fit for purpose.

/2c

StringerBell

This ad from the 40s has gone viral, and still holds as much if not more relevance today sadly.

https://youtu.be/-RJSN-7p3aA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJSN-7p3aA

I'm on mobile so hoping I embedded correctly maybe a mod can edit if not

StringerBell

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Just a thought, the US could also do with considering whether an electoral system conceived prior to the French Revolution remain fit for purpose.

/2c

There are people trying to get rid of the electoral college and rightly So, growing numbers speaking out against it. Resistance is strong though and change is often very slow.

VinLieger

StringerBell wrote: »

There are people trying to get rid of the electoral college and rightly So, growing numbers speaking out against it. Resistance is strong though and change is often very slow.

The American worship and reverance for their constitution, its amendments and the other systems drawn up by the original founders is baffling.

My favorite is people who shout about how you cant change the constitution and then you ask them about all the amendments.....

Really Interested

VinLieger wrote: »

The American worship and reverance for their constitution, its amendments and the other systems drawn up by the original founders is baffling.

My favorite is people who shout about how you cant change the constitution and then you ask them about all the amendments.....

My favourite to point out to Americans is that their constitution protected the rights of inventors and writers (1788) before it protected free speech! in 1791.

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Article 1 Section B Clause 8.

StringerBell

CNN just featured a clip of the Vice mini doc I referenced earlier when quoting a leading neo Nazi

Re-iterates that what they are doing,what he is doing is talking, spreading ideas in the hope that somebody more capable comes along and will do that (give him the America he wants) somebody like Donaldo Trump "who does not give his daughter to a jew"

Reporter: So Donald Trump, but more racist?
Nazi: Alot more racist the Donald Trump, I don't think you could feel like race the way I do and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl

Lovely guy.

MadYaker

Is Kushner Jewish??!

I can't believe he actually said those things. What the hell is wrong with him? He stands to gain absolutely nothing by sticking up for Nazi's and white suppremacists so why do it? He needs to fire Bannon and be done with it, honestly that must be where this madness is coming from because I find it hard to believe that he himself actually holds those views.

VinLieger

MadYaker wrote: »

Is Kushner Jewish??!

I can't believe he actually said those things. What the hell is wrong with him? He stands to gain absolutely nothing by sticking up for Nazi's and white suppremacists so why do it? He needs to fire Bannon and be done with it, honestly that must be where this madness is coming from because I find it hard to believe that he himself actually holds those views.

Theres 2 lines of thought on this.

1. His dad was a member of the KKK, he was arrested as a member of the KKK, is it that hard to believe donald who has fought court cases against allowing black people be tenants in his buildings isn't a racist?

2. Okay maybe he's not actively racist but hes so insulated living the vast vast majority of his life literally in a gold encrusted ivory tower penthouse he does not understand the nuances and complexities of this entire situation as he has long been removed from the average daily experiences of an average american.

I think he honestly believes he's not racist but he likely is probably to some degree due to the life he has led and the way he was brought up

Billy86

How ridiculous is it that it has come to this, but we can expect Trump to be in full temper tantrum mode today if he finds out what just became the most 'liked' tweet ever apparently.

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/896523232098078720

wes

Billy86 wrote: »

How ridiculous is it that it has come to this, but we can expect Trump to be in full temper tantrum mode today if he finds out what just became the most 'liked' tweet ever apparently.

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/896523232098078720

Just liked it now myself.

dudara

MadYaker wrote: »

Is Kushner Jewish??!

I can't believe he actually said those things. What the hell is wrong with him? He stands to gain absolutely nothing by sticking up for Nazi's and white suppremacists so why do it? He needs to fire Bannon and be done with it, honestly that must be where this madness is coming from because I find it hard to believe that he himself actually holds those views.

Yes, and so is Ivanka. She converted as part of marrying Jared. They're pretty observant Jews, down to the Sabbath and following a kosher diet. In fact, at the start there were concerns that Trump would run riot on Saturdays when Jared and Ivanka would not be available to moderate him.

Really Interested

MadYaker wrote: »

Is Kushner Jewish??!

I can't believe he actually said those things. What the hell is wrong with him? He stands to gain absolutely nothing by sticking up for Nazi's and white suppremacists so why do it? He needs to fire Bannon and be done with it, honestly that must be where this madness is coming from because I find it hard to believe that he himself actually holds those views.

Ivanka is so are all her children, so is Tifinys boyfriend.

wonderfullife

StringerBell wrote: »

Reporter: So Donald Trump, but more racist?
Nazi: Alot more racist the Donald Trump, I don't think you could feel like race the way I do and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl

I watched that full VICE documentary. For anyone interested it's a tough watch and I felt nervous throughout for the lead reporter on it - her name is Elle Reeve and she probably deserves some sort of award for it. She's getting a lot of support on twitter for her work.

That question was directed to a White Supremacist by the name of Christopher Cantwell. If you watch the whole video, the only conclusion that can be reached is that he is destined to kill a lot of people and soon.

The interesting part of her question (and his answer) was:

"more racist".

The question implied Donald Trump was a bona fide racist. The answer from the most racist person I've ever heard interviewed was effectively "yeah I give him kudos for being very racist but he's not racist enough for my liking".

It seems Trump is in the Goldilocks zone of racism. Not racist enough for his alt-right fans like James Alex Fields & Alexandre Bissonnette. Just racist enough for most of his base. Too racist for everyone else.

The amount of people Trump is going to get killed with his words and deeds (and policies) of division and hatred will be a staggering number when all is said and done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

Pelvis

For anyone interested the netflix documentary 'Oklahoma City' is a good watch, about the Oklahoma bombing but also touches on the prevailing but overlooked threat of white supremacy groups in America.

Really Interested

wonderfullife wrote: »

I watched that full VICE documentary. For anyone interested it's a tough watch and I felt nervous throughout for the lead reporter on it - her name is Elle Reeve and she probably deserves some sort of award for it. She's getting a lot of support on twitter for her work.

That question was directed to a White Supremacist by the name of Christopher Cantwell. If you watch the whole video, the only conclusion that can be reached is that he is destined to kill a lot of people and soon.

The interesting part of her question (and his answer) was:

"more racist".

The question implied Donald Trump was a bona fide racist. The answer from the most racist person I've ever heard interviewed was effectively "yeah I give him kudos for being very racist but he's not racist enough for my liking".

It seems Trump is in the Goldilocks zone of racism. Not racist enough for his alt-right fans like James Alex Fields & Alexandre Bissonnette. Just racist enough for most of his base. Too racist for everyone else.

The amount of people Trump is going to get killed with his words and deeds (and policies) of division and hatred will be a staggering number when all is said and done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

I have watched it to 2/3 will watch the rest later, its a good piece of TV and so fair, it is clear that the directors dont make these guys look bad they do that all themselves.

wonderfullife

Really Interested wrote: »

I have watched it to 2/3 will watch the rest later, its a good piece of TV and so fair, it is clear that the directors dont make these guys look bad they do that all themselves.

Very wise editorial decision not to go on a witch-hunt. She gave them a voice to be heard and it's important to see what these people are really about.

You'd have to imagine 80-90% of them are unemployed and/or unemployable because to espouse those views, to chant "Jews will not replace us" and other Nazi slogans, without masks on, they must have very little left to lose.

ThisRegard

Pelvis wrote: »

For anyone interested the netflix documentary 'Oklahoma City' is a good watch, about the Oklahoma bombing but also touches on the prevailing but overlooked threat of white supremacy groups in America.

It's pretty interesting alright.

Really Interested

wonderfullife wrote: »

Very wise editorial decision not to go on a witch-hunt. She gave them a voice to be heard and it's important to see what these people are really about.

You'd have to imagine 80-90% of them are unemployed and/or unemployable because to espouse those views, to chant "Jews will not replace us" and other Nazi slogans, without masks on, they must have very little left to lose.

Interesting point you make, I did not think of that. I get that in parts of the US there are a generation mostly white who have not got what their parents did. For many complex reasons, these men and its mostly men are ripe to be told a simple narrative, and when you find who is selling that narrative you usually find a guy making money and lots of it.

If its not selling survival gear, it will be books if not that it is just donate money we will protect you. You will find the con at the end of the rainbow.

Christy42

Really Interested wrote: »

Interesting point you make, I did not think of that. I get that in parts of the US there are a generation mostly white who have not got what their parents did. For many complex reasons, these men and its mostly men are ripe to be told a simple narrative, and when you find who is selling that narrative you usually find a guy making money and lots of it.

If its not selling survival gear, it will be books if not that it is just donate money we will protect you. You will find the con at the end of the rainbow.

Pretty sure that anti facist video from the 40s that has resurfaced made this point as well.

Really Interested

Christy42 wrote: »

Pretty sure that anti facist video from the 40s that has resurfaced made this point as well.

Yes and why the old adage is true "Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them" that is why people get animated when Nazi's or those dressed like them or calling out their slogans march and claim it is peacfull as they shout "fvck the fags". They can see it happening again.

StringerBell

wonderfullife wrote: »

Very wise editorial decision not to go on a witch-hunt. She gave them a voice to be heard and it's important to see what these people are really about.

You'd have to imagine 80-90% of them are unemployed and/or unemployable because to espouse those views, to chant "Jews will not replace us" and other Nazi slogans, without masks on, they must have very little left to lose.

Agreed, that was one of my first take aways from it when watching it yesterday. They do give balanced coverage, the subjects themselves reveal themselves for exactly what they are.

Its a common reporting style at Vice (not saying all of them are perfect) and they are better for it imo.

Itssoeasy

I've just seen the the clips on CNN of that vice film and I know it's been posted above. I don't think I want to watch the whole thing. The fact that he called the other side "animals" is rich when he seemed to not care about the lady that was killed.

These people are utter ****img scum.

I mean presidents bush 41 and 43 released a statement and when you actually agree with George W bush you know the stuff is hitting the fan.

Thepoet85

I see Trump has pulled the plug on his Business Councils. So much for making America great again.

Probably shut it down before everyone jumped ship, with 8 having bailed on him already.

Really Interested

Thepoet85 wrote: »

I see Trump has pulled the plug on his Business Councils. So much for making America great again.

Probably shut it down before everyone jumped ship, with 8 having bailed on him already.

I bet he was told no CEO will replace the ones who left. This is unprecedented, Americans who take service to their President seriously saying nope we had enough. These are not Libtard bostards these are serious people, who would rather not serve their own president.

InTheTrees

Thepoet85 wrote: »

I see Trump has pulled the plug on his Business Councils. So much for making America great again.

Probably shut it down before everyone jumped ship, with 8 having bailed on him already.

He childishly shut it down before the rest of them bailed on him. He never showed much interest and made no effort to try and make it work.

So much for him knowing "all the smartest people". Turns out they dont want to know him.

vetinari

At this point, I'd lean more towards Trump actually been a white supremacist sympathizer.
You could have argued that it was political opportunism up to now but yesterday's press conference showed him speaking from the heart imo.
He had absolutely no need to make the comments he made when at a press conference about infrastructure!

flazio

Problem I see is, nobody keeps up the pressure, this time next week all this will be forgotten, like the Transgendered ban, like the immigration ban like every single dumb thing he's done so far. We'll be onto tutting the next thing, and then the next without doing anything about it and before you know it he's 4 years in office.

Really Interested

flazio wrote: »

Problem I see is, nobody keeps up the pressure, this time next week all this will be forgotten, like the Transgendered ban, like the immigration ban like every single dumb thing he's done so far. We'll be onto tutting the next thing, and then the next without doing anything about it and before you know it he's 4 years in office.

The Transgender ban has not happened, the Immigration ban is super watered down, that's why they yesterdays news because they in fact are. So far its 7 months in office with the agenda actually going backwards.

The conservatives must be going mental they won but every they despise is happing, it has been agreed to remove more statutes in last few days than in last few decades. They wining alright, best thing is they cant blame the others.

Water John

It is cumilative. As the Representative for S Carolina called it 'foolishness'. That's what it all amounts to.

Leroy42

I said it earlier, before the PC yesterday, but I cannot understand how anybody thinks he is not racist. Everything he does, everything he says is based on crass stereotypes. That is exactly what racism is based on.

Whether it is Muslims, women, Mexicans, blacks looking to rent his apartments. He has a clear pattern of having ideas of whole sections of society based on nothing more than his own ideology.

VinLieger

flazio wrote: »

Problem I see is, nobody keeps up the pressure, this time next week all this will be forgotten, like the Transgendered ban, like the immigration ban like every single dumb thing he's done so far. We'll be onto tutting the next thing, and then the next without doing anything about it and before you know it he's 4 years in office.

This one might last a bit longer as there is likely to be knock on from it but yes in probably a week there will be a new fiasco.

The other issue about this is he is drastically lowering the bar on almost a daily basis about what is outrageous behavior and what isn't.

When everything he does is outrageous is anything he does outrageous?

Is anyone ever surprised by what he does anymore?

Leroy42

flazio wrote: »

Problem I see is, nobody keeps up the pressure, this time next week all this will be forgotten, like the Transgendered ban, like the immigration ban like every single dumb thing he's done so far. We'll be onto tutting the next thing, and then the next without doing anything about it and before you know it he's 4 years in office.

It certainly can feel like that but in essence he is losing more and more GOP support, support he needs to get his policies through as legislation rather than simply EO's which can be overturned as soon as he next POTUS come in

He is losing support from the CEO's and if things continue on in the chaotic nature the jobs and stock exchange will also take a hit. Once he loses that he is toast. He only has it as a follow on from Obama at this stage

Water John

The Heads of the four American Armed Forces have each issued statements, distancing their orgs from racism and bigotry. Amazing move.

POTUS Trump has failed his country and now has no moral standing.

froog

it's unbelievable really. the man is so desperate to have people still to adore him at rallys and such, he is terrified of condemning the white supremacist vote, his most die hard supporters.

For Forks Sake

So, the eminently qualified (English major, lacrosse player, model) and experienced (worked for PR company representing Trump Org, and then for Ivanka) Hope Hicks has been appointed interim WH Communications Director.

froog

For Forks Sake wrote: »

So, the eminently qualified (English major, lacrosse player, model) and experienced (worked for PR company representing Trump Org, and then for Ivanka) Hope Hicks has been appointed interim WH Communications Director.

this will end well.

Leroy42

I rewatched the PC from yesterday and another thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is not only his disdain for the media but his outright hostility towards them.

He continually call them fake news, liars etc. He interupts their questions (and they interupt him back). Does he really think this will get his anywhere with them. They have nothing to lose. One reporter gets blasted they just replace them with someone else.

It is very clear that the press has little respect for Trump. I am amazed that someone in the WH hasn't told him to go with a different path, a more concillitory path. He doesn't need to hand over to them, but less abrasive.

The PC yesterday was clearly straight out of his board meetings. He was in charge. Everything he said was right, and everybody questioning him either didn't understand or were lying.

With his Saturday statement, followed up by the clearly 'only said it because he had to' Monday statement and then back to the real feelings of yesterday, Trump has lost any credibility than he did have. How can anything he now says be taken as the truth, when he changed positions so rapidly over a course of a few days.

Professor Moriarty

InTheTrees wrote: »

He childishly shut it down before the rest of them bailed on him. He never showed much interest and made no effort to try and make it work.

So much for him knowing "all the smartest people". Turns out they dont want to know him.

He's getting his retaliation in first.

Really Interested

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He's getting his retaliation in first.

Not a good idea when the combined wealth of the people he pissing off would be the GDP of most countries.

rossie1977

Leroy42 wrote: »

I rewatched the PC from yesterday and another thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is not only his disdain for the media but his outright hostility towards them.

He continually call them fake news, liars etc. He interupts their questions (and they interupt him back). Does he really think this will get his anywhere with them. They have nothing to lose. One reporter gets blasted they just replace them with someone else.

It is very clear that the press has little respect for Trump. I am amazed that someone in the WH hasn't told him to go with a different path, a more concillitory path. He doesn't need to hand over to them, but less abrasive.

The PC yesterday was clearly straight out of his board meetings. He was in charge. Everything he said was right, and everybody questioning him either didn't understand or were lying.

Like all authoritarians he hates any media he can't control or is not favourable to him. Trumps mission is simple he wants either to:

1. Totally discredit the media to a point nobody believes them
2. Have them fall in line by taking away their privileges. We have already seen the beginnings of this and we are only 6 months into this administration. Imagination what it will be like after 6 years..

Itssoeasy

rossie1977 wrote: »

Like all authoritarians he hates any media he can't control or is not favourable to him. Trumps mission is simple he wants either to:

1. Totally discredit the media to a point nobody believes them
2. Have them fall in line by taking away their privileges. We have already seen the beginnings of this and we are only 6 months into this administration. Imagination what it will be like after 6 years..

6 years ? You think trump will get reelected ? I don't.

Itssoeasy

Also I watched the vice documentary. These white supremacists really believe the horse**** they are saying don't they ?