Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Celticfire

Billy86 wrote: »

In a random tidbit of a story, the creator of the Pepe the Frog cartoon was never alt-right, he made the thing 10 odd years ago just as some random cartoon that was later co-opted by the white supremacist movement. Anyway, someone on the alt-right went and made a (surprise, surprise, racist!) children's book using the character. It has now been ruled that the book has been removed from shelves and... all the profits from it have been ordered to go to a Muslim advocacy group. :pac:

Oh yeah, the other author has also lost his job as assistant principle in a school. Poor guy, hope he doesn't go taking any of that communist welfare while he's looking for a new job.

There's a certain irony in the fact that you're celebrating money going from one hateful racist group to another equal if not more hateful, racist, homophobic , misogynistic group.

CAIR was created by the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamic supremacist organization that pioneered 20th century Islamic terrorism and sanctions violence against civilians.


CAIR represents the opinions of only 12% of Muslim-Americans according to Gallup.

CAIR receives financial support from foreign powers who have also provided direct support to Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda and Hamas.

CAIR has solicited money from sponsors of terror and received financial support from convicted terrorists.

CAIR founders have praised terrorists to Muslim audiences and said that suicide bombers are acting on behalf of Islam.

CAIR has raised funds for terrorists under the guise of helping 9/11 victims.

CAIR board members have called for the overthrow of the United States and the imposition of Islamic law. CAIR has suggested applying Sharia punishment (ie. the death penalty) to users who criticize Islam on the Internet.

At least 15 high-level CAIR staff members have been under federal investigation for ties to Islamic terror.

CAIR has discouraged Muslim-Americans from cooperating with law enforcement and has spent more time and money advocating on behalf of convicted terrorists than for their victims.

CAIR vehemently opposed the release of the women’s rights advocacy film, Honor Diaries, on the basis that it was “Islamophobic.” For anybody with a beating heart, the film Honor Diaries should not be controversial.

"Honor Diaries is an important film that explores the brutality and systematic inequality faced by women in Muslim-majority societies. It features both believing Muslim women, like Dr. Qanta Ahmed (whose compelling essay about the film was published here at National Review Online yesterday), and former Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the renowned author and human-rights activist," explains National Review. "The purpose of Honor Diaries is to empower women by shining a light on the hardships they endure — including “honor” killings (i.e., murders over the perception of having brought shame to the family by violating Islamic norms), beatings, genital mutilation, forced marriage — particularly of young girls – and restrictions on movement, education, and economic opportunity. The film highlights authentic Muslim moderates struggling against the dead-end of Islamic supremacism."

Billy86

Celticfire wrote: »

There's a certain irony in the fact that you're celebrating money going from one hateful racist group to another equal if not more hateful, racist, homophobic , misogynistic group.

I'm enjoying racists and bigots defeating their own interests a whole lot, to be honest!

PopePalpatine

mcmoustache wrote: »

This is what's so remarkable about the lies of Trumpers. They are so bad. Most skilled liars when presented with multiple pieces of evidence showing wrong-doing, would create a fairly coherent narrative that fits with the evidence.

The problem with Trumper lies is that they are completely independent of each other and contradictory. They don't make sense when taken as a whole. There is no coherent counter narrative. It's just different lies to explain away whatever the latest piece of evidence is.

Let's not forget that they are repeatedly getting caught out in their lies. It's all "X didn't happenn Fake News!", "OK, X happened but not how the fake news reported it", "OK, it happened just like it was reported but so what."

And people, albeit fewer people than before are still buying and peddling these lies.

The alt-right are fans of the "gaslighting" technique used by domestic abusers, who would have thunk it?

Akrasia

blanch152 wrote: »

Would Irish people support the equivalent of DACA for the refugees and others who have entered Ireland illegally over the last couple of decades?

I don't see the equivalent of DACA on the Irish Statute Books.

If a kid was brought here by her parents,grows up in ireland, goes to school here, has no other home than here, then of course they should have a pathway towards citizenship and not simply rounded up and deported to a foreign land without a penny to their name

Obvious Otter

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The alt-right are fans of the "gaslighting" technique used by domestic abusers, who would have thunk it?

Who exactly are the alt-right? You see this word thrown around a lot but I've yet to see any conclusive definition. The US and U.K. media seem to use it as a catch all term to describe non-traditional conservatives. However, it just seems to be a word used to describe most Trump fans in general.

briany

Obvious Otter wrote: »

Who exactly are the alt-right? You see this word thrown around a lot but I've yet to see any conclusive definition. The US and U.K. media seem to use it as a catch all term to describe non-traditional conservatives. However, it just seems to be a word used to describe most Trump fans in general.

I see the term 'Alt-Right' as I'd see 'New Lad'. A re-branding.

Billy86

Obvious Otter wrote: »

Who exactly are the alt-right? You see this word thrown around a lot but I've yet to see any conclusive definition. The US and U.K. media seem to use it as a catch all term to describe non-traditional conservatives. However, it just seems to be a word used to describe most Trump fans in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right
The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism. White supremacist Richard Spencer initially promoted the term in 2010 in reference to a movement centered on white nationalism, and did so according to the Associated Press to disguise overt racism, white supremacism, and neo-Nazism. The term drew considerable media attention and controversy during and after the 2016 US presidential election.

Alt-right beliefs have been described as isolationist, protectionist, antisemitic, and white supremacist, frequently overlapping with Neo-Nazism, nativism and Islamophobia, antifeminism and homophobia, right-wing populism, and the neoreactionary movement. The concept has further been associated with several groups from American nationalists, neo-monarchists, men's rights advocates, and the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump.


In short: they're white supremacists and neo Nazis with a new marketing approach.

If you want a snapshot look up 'The_Donald' subreddit (voting for Trump didn't make you alt right, but if you were alt right you would have voted for him unless to lazy to go to the booth); I would say to look up the alt right ones but they all got banned for illegal activity. Likewise some other prominent forums related to them have been kicked off to the dark web recently due to things like openly inciting violence.

recedite

Nody wrote: »

Attempting to collude with a foreign power to influence a USA election is illegal under US law; success or not does not matter.

Yes, but what if some foreign power is putting out feelers but gets nowhere? That's why I said in the analogy, Trump is the girl that gives the slap.
Its somebody else doing the soliciting.

Christy42

recedite wrote: »

Yes, but what if some foreign power is putting out feelers but gets nowhere? That's why I said in the analogy, Trump is the girl that gives the slap.
Its somebody else doing the soliciting.

The slap is am indication of refusal. Nowhere is it really suggested that Trump refused which is why the analogy does not work. He simply failed to go through with due to the Senate and ongoing investigations. Both sides agreed to the meeting in Trump tower and Trump has tended to support Russian interests even when all evidence suggests it is the wrong course of action.

Obvious Otter

Billy86 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right
The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism. White supremacist Richard Spencer initially promoted the term in 2010 in reference to a movement centered on white nationalism, and did so according to the Associated Press to disguise overt racism, white supremacism, and neo-Nazism. The term drew considerable media attention and controversy during and after the 2016 US presidential election.

Alt-right beliefs have been described as isolationist, protectionist, antisemitic, and white supremacist, frequently overlapping with Neo-Nazism, nativism and Islamophobia, antifeminism and homophobia, right-wing populism, and the neoreactionary movement. The concept has further been associated with several groups from American nationalists, neo-monarchists, men's rights advocates, and the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump.


In short: they're white supremacists and neo Nazis with a new marketing approach.

If you want a snapshot look up 'The_Donald' subreddit (voting for Trump didn't make you alt right, but if you were alt right you would have voted for him unless to lazy to go to the booth); I would say to look up the alt right ones but they all got banned for illegal activity. Likewise some other prominent forums related to them have been kicked off to the dark web recently due to things like openly inciting violence.

Thanks for the detailed response. It's interesting how the white supremists have managed to get themselves some publicity.

Forums like the Donald and 4chan tend to support sensationalists and so called 'straight talkers', or snake oil salesmen for a better term. Although I wouldn't say that all of those involved would strictly believe in all of the above descriptions of the alt right. The fact that this group has managed to gauge any traction at all shows exactly how disenfranchised America is with their politicans right now.

mcmoustache

Obvious Otter wrote: »

Forums like the Donald and 4chan tend to support sensationalists and so called 'straight talkers', or snake oil salesmen for a better term. Although I wouldn't say that all of those involved would strictly believe in all of the above descriptions of the alt right. The fact that this group has managed to gauge any traction at all shows exactly how disenfranchised America is with their politicans right now.

That sentiment has always been there. They just feel emboldened now that they have one of their own in the white house. The rebranding helped with that.

briany

mcmoustache wrote: »

That sentiment has always been there. They just feel emboldened now that they have one of their own in the white house. The rebranding helped with that.

I don't know if I'd call Trump a proper Alt-Right person because when you look at his history, he used to be fairly moderate, politically. He'd just be a typical money man in that he'd grease the palm of whoever he needed to get things done. We saw the turnabout he did on prosecuting Hillary when the election was done, saying "I don't want to hurt the Clintons. I really don't."

But he is popular with elements of the Alt-Right because, and this is why I'd call Trump smart - not because he's a politically educated man, but he had the savvy to identify an undercurrent of public anger that other politicians perhaps felt was too poisonous to touch, to use social media to communicate with them, and had the bravado, the gall, the chutzpah to cow his more traditionally-minded opponents in political debate, all too often making their facts into "facts". Pure demagoguary, in other words.

Another reason why I wouldn't place Trump squarely in the Alt-Right (though I certainly agree his presidency has emboldened certain elements) is because some sectors of it are out-and-out White Nationalists, and those people, such as Chris Cantwell, strongly object to Trump due to his fraternisation with a particular ethnic group. Or in Cantwell's words,

'I don't think you could feel the way I do about race, and watch that Kushner b*stard walk around with that beautiful girl'

Leroy42

recedite wrote: »

Yes, but what if some foreign power is putting out feelers but gets nowhere? That's why I said in the analogy, Trump is the girl that gives the slap.
Its somebody else doing the soliciting.

But they didn't give a slap, they invited them into the private room. That the other person turned out to be ugly in the lights of the room isn't really the issue.

Trump Jr set up the meeting on the hope of getting the information (in your analogy in the hope of getting a bit). He invited them round, turned on the mood music, lit the candles. The only reason he didn't get the info (and this is only their version of the event, we will never actually know if it is true, and Trump has lied continuously about almost every aspect of the meeting so not sure why anybody would place any credence on his stated position).

Trump has even come out and said that everyone would set up the meeting. So he saw nothing wrong with it. And one can presume that he would do it again if presented with the possibility.

Samaris

McCain's come out with a "blistering op-ed" regarding the situation. He makes some good points, although I've heard arguments as to how blistering it was (in terms of big name Republicans, it was reasonably capable of raising a few blisters imo).

I want to like McCain or at least respect him, but my main issue with him is that he's talked a good talk, but his walking is usually in line with everyone else's. Sure, he voted down the daft medical bill, but that victory really belonged to Murkowski and Collins who did it when they had no chance of winning too - they took the risk repeatedly for their principles. McCain more...dived in at the last moment when it could be won in a rather showy manner, but had voted with the herd previously.

He's right on the current state of Congress being completely wrong and the issues of partisanship over actually running the country.

froog

Obvious Otter wrote:

Who exactly are the alt-right? You see this word thrown around a lot but I've yet to see any conclusive definition. The US and U.K. media seem to use it as a catch all term to describe non-traditional conservatives. However, it just seems to be a word used to describe most Trump fans in general.

Far right people who like internet memes

aloyisious

recedite wrote: »

Yes, but what if some foreign power is putting out feelers but gets nowhere? That's why I said in the analogy, Trump is the girl that gives the slap.
Its somebody else doing the soliciting.

It would have been way better for the Russians to have used Rex Tillerson [Sec of State] as the conduit, rather than the ones they were in contact with and the way they went about it by making the contact with junior members of Don's family. Given the inquisitive press as part of the checks and balances of the US's constitutional system and the already [by that time] known leaking from the W/H and the overtly public meetings between Russian officials up to it's head of state at international diplomatic events, speculations [including honestly arrived correct evaluations] were bound to occur.

Most of the chat here about the above connections and meeting seem to be on what the US media wrote or spoke about in regard to the Trump family and Russians involved in the various meetings. I reckon that if one was to go to the bother of looking at other nations media reporting, not just the "Western" ones, on what is/was happening between the Trump family and Russians would show they were as voluble on the issue as the US ones. It wasn't, despite Don's continuous complaining, all about WaPo and NYT "fake News" stories.

Looking back at history as we have to the Nixon years recently here, He and Henry Kissinger pulled off the biggest secret diplomatic coup in decades by meeting the leadership of the other alternative great communist state to Russia [China] while Henry was suffering from a "cold".

Samaris

Obvious Otter wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed response. It's interesting how the white supremists have managed to get themselves some publicity.

Forums like the Donald and 4chan tend to support sensationalists and so called 'straight talkers', or snake oil salesmen for a better term. Although I wouldn't say that all of those involved would strictly believe in all of the above descriptions of the alt right. The fact that this group has managed to gauge any traction at all shows exactly how disenfranchised America is with their politicans right now.

There are a few oddly unique points to this particular batch of alt-right. They appear to be mostly young males who probably have had the internet available most of their lives. I'm basing that on how it sprang from message boards and the internet, coupled with very specific internet language - memes. Pepe the Frog is one of them, and all that stuff about Republic of Kekistan (and "kek") is, I kid you not, from a MMORPG called World of Warcraft. ("kek" is how "lol" appears if one race in the game is typing so another race of the opposite faction can see it - so usually used for gloating, as you can imagine.) They do seem to mostly dwell on certain websites and chatrooms even now.

There is a peculiar childishness to it that doesn't entirely fit the usual description. Then again, the KKK dress up in long white robes and call themselves things like dragons and wizards so...maybe not.

alchemist33

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0903/901879-trump-tower/

Not surprisingly, there's no evidence Obama wiretapped Trump. I'd hope there would be some repurcussins for what was a very outlandish and libellous claim but I fear everybody's gotten so desensitised to him at this stage that nothing will happen.

Hande hoche!

North Koreans have tested another bomb, will be intriguing to see what happens next. All the same, various parties have mentioned that a test was coming in advance. Probably just shift some military hardware around.

20Cent

If you take a look at the pol section of 4chan you can see the alt right. Racist misogynistic, anti muslim pro white supremacy. When called on it most claim to be taking the p1ss or whatnot. They are playing with fire though and giving support to nazi characters. Don't know the difference between a nazi and someone being a nazi to troll.

Akrasia

Two headlines relating to the Korean Peninsula this morning.
First is the nuclear test which is worrying to say the least.
The other, is the reports that Donald Trump is about to pull out of the trade deal he has with South Korea.


With allies like this, who needs enemies.

Does Trump have any idea what he's doing? What kind of timing is this?

What incentive is there for NK to do any kind of deal with America if they see Trump shafting his own allies at a time of crisis.

alchemist33

20Cent wrote: »

If you take a look at the pol section of 4chan you can see the alt right. Racist misogynistic, anti muslim pro white supremacy. When called on it most claim to be taking the p1ss or whatnot. They are playing with fire though and giving support to nazi characters. Don't know the difference between a nazi and someone being a nazi to troll.

The difference is probably the environment to act out on their fantasies; fantasies that other sites wouldn't tolerate.

Itssoeasy

Akrasia wrote: »

Two headlines relating to the Korean Peninsula this morning.
First is the nuclear test which is worrying to say the least.
The other, is the reports that Donald Trump is about to pull out of the trade deal he has with South Korea.


With allies like this, who needs enemies.

Does Trump have any idea what he's doing? What kind of timing is this?

What incentive is there for NK to do any kind of deal with America if they see Trump shafting his own allies at a time of crisis.

No he doesn't and that's been blindingly obvious since he took office. It's just the people who support him for various reasons can't see he's an utter failure.

Nody

Looks likely that the next staff member to leave the WH staff will be John Kelly seeing how Trump has zero people skill or ability and the temperament and control of a two year old with wet diapers.

The US president gave the retired Marine Corps general a dressing down in an incident seen by a number of administration staff, it is claimed.

Mr Trump's temper is said to have flared after advisers suggested he should stop politicising normal issues of government following another blistering attack on the media at a rally in Phoenix, Arizona.
Read more

Sources told the New York Times that Mr Kelly, 67, reacted to the outburst calmly, but said he later told colleagues he had never been spoken to in such a way during 35 years of military service and would not put up with similar treatment again.

volchitsa

Nody wrote: »

Looks likely that the next staff member to leave the WH staff will be John Kelly seeing how Trump has zero people skill or ability and the temperament and control of a two year old with wet diapers.

Sources told the New York Times that Mr Kelly, 67, reacted to the outburst calmly, but said he later told colleagues he had never been spoken to in such a way during 35 years of military service and would not put up with similar treatment again.

.

Mm. "I will put up with unacceptable and unwarranted abuse this time but he better never do it again" is a little unconvincing, IMO.

Samaris

The wait for the Dreamers is over, and it's not good. The program is to be ended with a six-month delay.

FFS. Those people don't deserve this. They were kids when they were brought there.

ECO_Mental

Samaris wrote: »

The wait for the Dreamers is over, and it's not good. The program is to be ended with a six-month delay.

FFS. Those people don't deserve this. They were kids when they were brought there.

Trump is a disgusting spineless human being......its like its a competition to try and be the biggest a-hole eveyday with him.

The sooner he get impeached the better for everybody.

On another note looks like the lads over in Fox (tucker et al:rolleyes:) have been laughing and joking this week saying that the whole Russia thing is gone since it hasn't been on the new over the last week or so. Is it just me or has that Tucker Carlson have that face you want to punch, his smarmy lets shout anybody down who comes on his show drives me crazy

spacecoyote

https://medium.com/@Amy_Siskind/week-42-experts-in-authoritarianism-advise-to-keep-a-list-of-things-subtly-changing-around-you-so-a1fbe96c91ca

Jaysus, I've been following the attached lists for a while now. When you actually read through everything that's happening on a weekly basis, it's practically impossible to keep up with the amount of crap going on.

It really makes for pretty depressing reading.

Akrasia

Samaris wrote: »

The wait for the Dreamers is over, and it's not good. The program is to be ended with a six-month delay.

FFS. Those people don't deserve this. They were kids when they were brought there.

It is so heartless.

The next 6 months should be wall to wall case stories of young adults, many with american accents who have done absolutely nothing wrong waiting for the knock on the door, taking them by force and dumping them at an airport in a foreign country that they haven't been to since they were children.

Billy86

Akrasia wrote: »

It is so heartless.

The next 6 months should be wall to wall case stories of young adults, many with american accents who have done absolutely nothing wrong waiting for the knock on the door, taking them by force and dumping them at an airport in a foreign country that they haven't been to since they were children.

These are the lengths a sociopath will go to in order to stop people publicly looking into their collusion with Russia, and barring Congress stepping in I have very little doubt the US will be at war in the next 6-12 months, literally for the purpose of making Donald feel like a popular kid with big explosive toys, and not the favourite to overtake Benedict Arnold as the biggest traitor in the history of his country.

Leroy42

Akrasia wrote: »

It is so heartless.

The next 6 months should be wall to wall case stories of young adults, many with american accents who have done absolutely nothing wrong waiting for the knock on the door, taking them by force and dumping them at an airport in a foreign country that they haven't been to since they were children.

These people were brought into the country illegally, or born to people who entered illegally.

Why should the rules that we abide by not also relate to them?

Sure, they broke into my house and lived of my means, but they are pretty nice so let them stay! That is what you are arguing for. I can't just fly over to the US and stay for as long as I want,

Of course these children will feel they are paying a price, but the alternative is to let them stay and what type of signal does that give out?

There is plenty to tackle Trump over, and I agree that since Obama brought this in then they should at least give it longer, but overall I can see the justification behind it.

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

These people were brought into the country illegally, or born to people who entered illegally.

Why should the rules that we abide by not also relate to them?

Because you are not in their situation.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Sure, they broke into my house and lived of my means . . .

No, they didn't. If they break into peoples houses they can be convicted of burglary and then, as non-citizens, deported.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Of course these children will feel they are paying a price, but the alternative is to let them stay and what type of signal does that give out?

That America is a better and more humane nation than is exemplified by Donal Trump?

Leroy42 wrote: »

There is plenty to tackle Trump over, and I agree that since Obama brought this in then they should at least give it longer, but overall I can see the justification behind it.

Leroy42

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because you are not in their situation.

So? Do you agree that they, or more likely their parents, broke the law?

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, they didn't. If they break into peoples houses they can be convicted of burglary and then, as non-citizens, deported.

Its an analogy. The house being the country. They illegally entered the country.

Peregrinus wrote: »

That America is a better and more humane nation than is exemplified by Donal Trump?

America is based on the law, justice. Obama gave a blanket mercy and Trump is saying that that should no longer apply. There is nothing to stop these people applying for visa in the same way as every other law abiding person would.

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

These people were brought into the country illegally, or born to people who entered illegally.

Why should the rules that we abide by not also relate to them?

Because if you have a system that tolerates illegal immigration such that people can grow up there and go to school there and get a college education there, and make a life there, then it is a cruel and heartless society that will just decide to deport them after they have built a life there.

Sure, they broke into my house and lived of my means, but they are pretty nice so let them stay! That is what you are arguing for. I can't just fly over to the US and stay for as long as I want,

There's a principle in Law called adverse possession. If you own a property but someone can somehow break into it and live in it for 12 years openly without you objecting and taking back the property, then you can claim ownership over that property.

DACA only applies to people who came to the USA before 2007 have completed their education there and/or had an honourable service in the military, and have no serious criminal record.

DACA is not a slippery slope. It was an amnesty to a specific group of targeted people who have proven themselves to be upstanding (potential) citizens.

Of course these children will feel they are paying a price, but the alternative is to let them stay and what type of signal does that give out?

The signal sent by letting them stay is that America is not a cruel and inhospitable place. The signal sent by deporting 800,000 law abiding people is that america is an insular, racist small minded, heartless society ruled by fear and xenophobia.

There is plenty to tackle Trump over, and I agree that since Obama brought this in then they should at least give it longer, but overall I can see the justification behind it.

DACA is a historic amnesty for a targeted group of people who are already in America. it is not a policy to allow unrestricted migration. It is not a slippery slope.

The justification behind it is that Trump is a racist. There is no economic argument for it, there is no public safety argument for it, there is no moral argument for it, there is only a racist justification, that these latinos are diluting the ethnic makeup of America. It is white people afraid that non white people might become a majority in America.

Christy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

So? Do you agree that they, or more likely their parents, broke the law?




Its an analogy. The house being the country. They illegally entered the country.




America is based on the law, justice. Obama gave a blanket mercy and Trump is saying that that should no longer apply. There is nothing to stop these people applying for visa in the same way as every other law abiding person would.

They did not break the law. If my parents kill someone I don't go to jail. Similarly if someone brings their baby along while robbing your house they don't send the baby to jail.

These people have built their lives here and didn't do anything wrong themselves. Yes they should not have been brought here but it is not their fault.

It isn't like they will have anything to go back to. Likely they have nothing in their place of birth. It is not like they came over yesterday and can go back to wherever their home was yesterday. That home is gone in all likelihood. They will have grown up in the states in a lot of cases and will see themselves as American as opposed to being from a country they don't remember that much about.

Pelvis

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its an analogy.

A really, really bad one.

Leroy42

Very good post Akrasia, some good information there.

I'll do some further reading into it and see if I can get a different perspective.

aloyisious

Samaris wrote: »

The wait for the Dreamers is over, and it's not good. The program is to be ended with a six-month delay.

FFS. Those people don't deserve this. They were kids when they were brought there.

He, and I suspect others, are probably looking at the amount of Con voters they are getting out of the way before the elections.

Peregrinus

Leroy42 wrote: »

So? Do you agree that they, or more likely their parents, broke the law?

No. It's not illegal to be in the US without the requisite visa. Some of them (or, in most cases, their parents) may have broken the law in the manner in which they entered the US; others not. Trump's measure applies to them all regardless.

It's not acceptable to apply a measure like this to an entire group on the basis that the parents of some members of the group may have broken the law. That consideration alone should put the kibosh on the whole thing.

The other consideration is the one Akrasia mentioned. This program didn't drop fully-formed out of the heavens; it was part of a wider set of measures which involve tougher immigration laws and a more vigorous deportation policy, balanced by a path to citizenship for people with a substantial history in, and commitment to, the US. Trump now proposes to welch on half of this; you can guess which half.

wes

Trump once again shows how cruel and petty he is. Everything that was said about the man before the election is true.

Major flooding and forest fires in the US, and he goes after the dreamers. North Korea kicking things off, with a missile flying over Japan and hydrogen bomb underground test, and instead he threatens South Korea's trade deal and accuses them of "appeasement" (very easy to accuse them of appeasement, when Seoul can be utterly destroyed with the Norths conventional weapon arsenal). That is only the last few days.

Trump and his regime is a joke, and he will continued to be utterly cruel, vile, and hateful old man.

The republicans and the right own this crap. They own all of it.

Samaris

I noticed with a sense of worry that his lashing out at his allies because North Korea isn't falling into line is exactly what he always does when things don't go his way. He did it with Congress over the health care bill too, but he does it whenever things get difficult. It's never his fault in any way, of course, so it must be his allies.

Thing is, you can get away with humiliating underlings that you can fire. You can apparently get away with treating Congress (who aren't great shakes either at the moment) like this. I don't know if you can treat other countries like this, especially in a volatile situation.

That, and there appears to be an element of irritation over trade about it all too. I really do hope he's not mixing trade arguments with his allies with dealing with the threat of NK. That would be a stupid thing to do. And it gives entirely the wrong messages to NK, to his allies and to the rest of the world.

So, yeah, now I have problems with how he's handling North Korea.

BillyBobBS

He's done a brilliant job thus far as president. How he is handling the economy and the North Korea situation is outstanding. 9/10

Peregrinus

BillyBobBS wrote: »

He's done a brilliant job thus far as president. How he is handling the economy and the North Korea situation is outstanding. 9/10

His masterly handling of healthcare reform shows his statesmanlike qualities at their finest, his record of legislative achievement is second to none, and due to his wise and judicious leadership his country's international reputation stands higher than ever before in the entire history of the universe from the earliest of times to the present day. All hail the Dear Leader Kim Don-Ald!

Leroy42

BillyBobBS wrote: »

He's done a brilliant job thus far as president. How he is handling the economy and the North Korea situation is outstanding. 9/10

Why knock off the 1? Outstanding you said which surely deserves a 10

I assume you are dropping a point for something. Care to let us know where you think he has been less that outstanding?

Billy86

BillyBobBS wrote: »

He's done a brilliant job thus far as president. How he is handling the economy and the North Korea situation is outstanding. 9/10

US Dollar is down something like 12c on the Euro and has lost ground on just about every major economy since he took office, and he's eagerly trying to push for nuclear war with North Korea while being far more effective at alienating his allies in the area like South Korea in between goes of trying to saber rattle China. So no.

Odds on no meaningful response followed by you posting something similar in a few weeks again are...? Because I don't think you actually believe what you typed (this time, or the last time, or...) even in the slightest.

recedite

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why knock off the 1? Outstanding you said which surely deserves a 10

I assume you are dropping a point for something. Care to let us know where you think he has been less that outstanding?

Probably because diplomatic relations with Russia are at an all time low, which is hindering a resolution of the Syria crisis.
Though in fairness, he has been boxed into a corner on that one by his enemies at home, and so he cannot be seen to be cooperating with Putin on anything.

circadian

recedite wrote: »

Probably because diplomatic relations with Russia are at an all time low, which is hindering a resolution of the Syria crisis.
Though in fairness, he has been boxed into a corner on that one by his enemies at home, and so he cannot be seen to be cooperating with Putin on anything.

If by enemies you mean his staff and family then yes, he's snookered when it comes to Russia but given the evidence and his behaviour so far, I wouldn't exactly trust any of his dealings with Russia either.

Billy86

It's funny how having illegal meetings to collude with foreign powers can then make it difficult to be seen to be following those same foreign powers leads in world domestic and global affairs.

Leroy42

recedite wrote: »

Probably because diplomatic relations with Russia are at an all time low, which is hindering a resolution of the Syria crisis.
Though in fairness, he has been boxed into a corner on that one by his enemies at home, and so he cannot be seen to be cooperating with Putin on anything.

Do you blame Trump for that? Either Trump is failing to get a relationship with Putin, meaning his claims to be great at deal making are somewhat questionable, or he is being stymied by the House/Senate which calls into question his ability to lead.

And to say he cannot be seen to cooperate is not true. He cooperated with Russia directly on the Syria missile attack. He also cooperated directly with Putin on the possible interference in the election when he decided to take Putin's denial over the evidence given by his own intelligence services. Even going as far as to suggest a joint digital task force.

relax carry on

BillyBobBS wrote: »

He's done a brilliant job thus far as president. How he is handling the economy and the North Korea situation is outstanding. 9/10

All joking aside, his core supporters probably see him in this light and will most likely never change their opinion of him. When historians come to attempt to understand the Trump phenomenon, I wonder what will they pick out as the key factors in his rise to power and the seeming inability of the political structure to remove a clearly unfit president.