London Fire and Aftermath RIP

inforfun

If the Bijlmer disaster is anything to go by, they will never know how many people were living there.

tara73

how will they ever get to the upper floors and recover the bodies? If it's already in danger to collapse, that won't change to the better.

Mr.Plough

Official statement made by CTBUH (Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat):

The tragic events at Grenfell House in West London this morning sadden us all and remind us of our responsibilities when funding, designing, building, and operating tall buildings. With at least 12 deaths being confirmed and over 78 injured (as of 7:47 p.m. GMT+1), there will be a detailed investigation and an independent enquiry with the possibility of criminal prosecutions arising. It is therefore too early and inappropriate to offer comments on the specific details at Grenfell House or to speculate on the events leading to the loss of life.

The refurbishment of high-rise buildings present both great opportunities and unique challenges. This is a topic that the CTBUH membership has considered, including at its recent Conference in China.

Existing high-rise housing stock in the UK represents an important resource for sustainable and affordable homes. Often, works are needed to improve the thermal, acoustic, aesthetic, and damp proofing performance of these legacy buildings, and in some instances refurbishment can offer an opportunity to improve upon fire safety provisions.

At this time, with regards the Grenfell House incident, there is a great deal of speculation surrounding the re-cladding of the building and whether this has played a decisive role in the tragic events. Given other recent high-profile incidents such as The Address (Dubai) fire and other similar incidents, that interest is understandable. However, every building is different, and fire safety is achieved through a package of measures in the design, construction, and operation of a building. Incidents such as this tragic case most often arise from an unfortunate and site-specific string of events – not one single factor.

Achieving a safe over-cladding design is a complex process. Delivering the necessary performance is a difficult challenge, often requiring input from multiple specialists, working together to deliver a holistic design. In such instances, fire safety is often delivered in the details, and at this time we simply do not have the relevant facts to enable an assessment of the relevance of cladding or other factors to be made at this stage.

In the UK (and in most places in the world), the standard approach to the evacuation of a high-rise residential building is for a “defend in place” approach whereby only those initially at risk are automatically evacuated. As a result of this, residents of tall buildings are typically advised to stay in their apartment if there is a fire elsewhere in the building. The Grenfell House incident will no doubt raise speculation on whether defend in place is the best approach. Statistics tell us that defend in place remains the best policy and is based on sound principles as it enables fire fighters to work unhindered and protects against the apathy that can develop from exposure to false alarms. Whilst recognising that defend in place can rely on other safety measures being in place, any move to encourage a change from this strategy could put lives at risk and great care should be taken when contemplating or promoting any change.

The regulatory processes in the UK provide opportunity for all buildings to undergo a high level of scrutiny at the time of design, construction, and operation. Understanding what has gone wrong at Grenfell House will undoubtedly help inform the future of high-rise design and refurbishment, not just in the UK but globally.

http://www.ctbuh.org/News/GlobalTallNews/CTBUHReleasesInitialStatementonGrenfellHouse/tabid/7579/language/en-US/Default.aspx

murpho999

Gringo180 wrote: »

17 dead is only the tip of the iceberg. There will be over 100 dead and most will be children. Sickening.

Sorry but how do you know this?

tiger55

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

While the external insulation is flammable to some degree, I presume that the air gap between the cladding and the insulation was the problem. It acted like a chimney, funnelling fire up the outside of the building.

The Irish Building Regs reference the fact that there will be a fire risk on a building over 18m with a ventilated cavity outside of external insulation.

Most of the intense fire was inside the building though.

K.Flyer

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

While the external insulation is flammable to some degree, I presume that the air gap between the cladding and the insulation was the problem. It acted like a chimney, funnelling fire up the outside of the building.

The Irish Building Regs reference the fact that there will be a fire risk on a building over 18m with a ventilated cavity outside of external insulation.

One of the tv stations had an expert on last night, and he said that this would have been a major contributor to the rapid spread upwards of the fire causing the block to be engulfed with flame on the outside which then spread to the inside.

tiger55

tara73 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/14/grenfell-tower-major-fire-london-apartment-block-white-city-latimer-road

the things the people in the last minutes of the video say are significant: they just 'refurbished' that tower to make it look good because it's so close to the new shopping center where the rich people from the area go. they didn't care an inch about the poor, no money bringing in tenants in the tower

there are more blocks there but not so close to the shopping centre and I don't think they were refurbished...

they just put on their ****ty, flammable cladding for cosmetic reasons and  made this building an even higher fire trap than it already was.

it makes me sick and I can't stand seeing and hearing the politicians like Theresa May or even the new major looking all concerned and whaffling about how fire regulations will be assesed now or whatever.

I doubt they spent £10 million just to make the rich seem happy while shopping.

laugh

The lack of coordination for this event is shocking, families are having to visit six hospitals to see if loved ones survived.

Surely someone should take a list of residences, take reports from hospitals of who they have / pictures if they are not able to identify them and coordinate with people who escaped?

homerjay2005

laugh wrote: »

The lack of coordination for this event is shocking, families are having to visit six hospitals to see if loved ones survived.

Surely someone should take a list of residences, take reports from hospitals of who they have / pictures if they are not able to identify them and coordinate with people who escaped?

its easy to say that behind a keyboard but maybe of these people would have come in without any identification and/or picked up on different floors, stairwells etc.

now is not the time to be complaining about the emergency services and how they are working.

mikeybrennan

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its easy to say that behind a keyboard but maybe of these people would have come in without any identification and/or picked up on different floors, stairwells etc.

now is not the time to be complaining about the emergency services and how they are working.

I don't think the complaint was directed at the emergency services

laugh

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its easy to say that behind a keyboard but maybe of these people would have come in without any identification and/or picked up on different floors, stairwells etc.

now is not the time to be complaining about the emergency services and how they are working.

Several residents have said that nobody from government / council is assisting them in these matters.

Alf Veedersane

tiger55 wrote: »

Most of the intense fire was inside the building though.

We'll probably have to assume that there was probably a connection between the fire on the outside and the fire on the inside.

homerjay2005

laugh wrote: »

Several residents have said that nobody from government / council is assisting them in these matters.

you can be pretty sure theres alot of people helping out here.

Harry Palmr

laugh wrote: »

The lack of coordination for this event is shocking, families are having to visit six hospitals to see if loved ones survived.

Surely someone should take a list of residences, take reports from hospitals of who they have / pictures if they are not able to identify them and coordinate with people who escaped?

Should be easy enough - take a head shot of everyone who has presented themselves and upload same to a dedicated page on social media with each picture tagged with the hospital name.

kopite386

Just read that there are 9 firefighters who got injured, between burns, heat exhaustion, smoke inhalation but as the commissioner said very minor injuries considering the incident and debris falling on them

Mental Mickey

Gringo180 wrote: »

17 dead is only the tip of the iceberg. There will be over 100 dead and most will be children. Sickening.

Can you see into the future??

K.Flyer

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Should be easy enough - take a head shot of everyone who has presented themselves and upload same to a dedicated page on social media with each picture tagged with the hospital name.

You might find something like that could contravene rights to privacy and data protection.
Hospitals here will not give any information about patients out over the phone to randomers phoning up, even if they say they are next of kin.

kopite386

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Should be easy enough - take a head shot of everyone who has presented themselves and upload same to a dedicated page on social media with each picture tagged with the hospital name.

K.Flyer wrote: »

You might find something like
that could contravene rights to privacy and data protection.
Hospitals here will not give any information about patients out over the phone to randomers phoning up, even if they say they are next of kin.

Also some of the patients could be badly burned so I'm sure families/friends/relatives wouldn't appreciate photos like that online

DrPhilG

murpho999 wrote: »

Sorry but how do you know this?

A few sources (family members of London firemen) have said that they expect it to be over 100.

Another forum I visit has a member of the London fire brigade posting. He didn't say too much other than "probably" when asked if the numbers would be 3 figures.

He confirmed that he would be doing body recovery today.

Send In The Robots

Heard that the London FS had to bring in special drones from the Kent FS, seems bizzare they haven't got any themselves.

Saying that these ones are only useful for IR surveying and inspection.
It's unlikely that any readily available drones could carry 60-120kg average loads

A fire like this one would have limited technology reach.
Only tool that may have assisted is the robotic Trucked Vehicle 'TAF35' (from EMI Controls)
mounted with a massive fire-suppressing mist cannon - to cool or suppress the area (only slightly).

Send In The Robots

Send In The Robots wrote: »

Heard that the London FS had to bring in special drones from the Kent FS, seems bizzare they haven't got any themselves.

Saying that these ones are only useful for IR surveying and inspection.
It's unlikely that any readily available drones could carry 60-120kg average loads

A fire like this one would have limited technology reach.
Only tool that may have assisted is the robotic Trucked Vehicle 'TAF35' (from EMI Controls)
mounted with a massive fire-suppressing mist cannon - to cool or suppress the area (only slightly).

Could be cutbacks or could be that Kent need them for things London wouldn't, say wildfires to get the scale, barnfires, power plants.

Some of my family are in the hospitals and volunteering helping out those out of home. They say the response would restore any lost faith anyone has in humanity, there's been a huge amount of people offering help, places to stay, arriving with food for everyone, clothes and toys, people offering prepaid mobile phones to strangers so they can let relatives know how and where they are.

Londoners might ignore each other 99% of the time, but in times of crisis they've always known how to pull together.

retro:electro

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Should be easy enough - take a head shot of everyone who has presented themselves and upload same to a dedicated page on social media with each picture tagged with the hospital name.

Really? Take a picture of someone who is possibly injured badly, burned and maybe even disfigured and upload it on to a dedicated social media page for their family to see them and know what hospital they're in? I'm not sure that's the way I'd like to recognise my loved one.

CeilingFly

tara73 wrote: »

the things the people in the last minutes of the video say are significant: they just 'refurbished' that tower to make it look good because it's so close to the new shopping center where the rich people from the area go. they didn't care an inch about the poor, no money bringing in tenants in the tower

there are more blocks there but not so close to the shopping centre and I don't think they were refurbished...

they just put on their ****ty, flammable cladding for cosmetic reasons and made this building an even higher fire trap than it already was.

it makes me sick and I can't stand seeing and hearing the politicians like Theresa May or even the new major looking all concerned and whaffling about how fire regulations will be assesed now or whatever.

I alway try not to believe all the crap written in the media - remember the media ALWAYS have an agenda.

Yes part of the reason for cladding was to make the building look better and that usually for the residents to like better where they live. It also provided much needed insulation as if you check other reports, the flats were freezing in winter and far too hot in summer.

The cladding was a small part of the project. Every window was replaced too with double glazing and electrical work was carried out.

But certain media will never ever give the full story when a screaming headline that suit their own agenda is available using just a small part of the story.

So just be careful of the media - no matter what the story. A public enquiry is being held on this tragedy and that will give the full story and hopefully lessons learnt will avoid any such tragedy again

Widdershins

K.Flyer wrote: »

You might find something like that could contravene rights to privacy and data protection.
Hospitals here will not give any information about patients out over the phone to randomers phoning up, even if they say they are next of kin.

They will give out ward numbers. This happened to me personally and Im not happy about it. The person claimed to be a relative.

wakka12

anna080 wrote: »

Really? Take a picture of someone who is possibly injured badly, burned and maybe even disfigured and upload it on to a dedicated social media page for their family to see them and know what hospital they're in? I'm not sure that's the way I'd like to recognise my loved one.

Admittedly not an ideal situation but would not prefer to know that your loved one is alive?

kopite386

The first victim has been named as Mohammed Alhajali, a 23 year old Syrian refugee, he lived on the 14th floor. He was apparently on the phone to his friend for 2 hours inside his flat while the fire was spreading, he then said goodbye by saying the fire had reached him.

His brother was also caught up in the fire but he has been found in hospital in a stable condition

FrancieBrady

I heard a lady on the radio say that people made and sent video of what was happening around them. I genuinely had to turn off the radio.

4068ac1elhodqr

Lady and her offspring survives it by running a cold bath and flooding her flat, other than a makeshift parachute that's one option.

Gringo180

murpho999 wrote: »

Sorry but how do you know this?

Look at the building. Its completely gutted. Fire ravaged its way all the way to the top, no smoke alarms, most people asleep and never stood a chance. There was a woman interviewed on BBC news this morning who lives in the complex and said there was many many more dead than what is being reported.