London Fire and Aftermath RIP

Gringo180

Grandeeod wrote: »

Well I disagree. IMO he's a spoofer like the rest of them. I appreciate some of his policies and his historic/rebellious contributions to the Lab party, but at the end of the day, he's a politician and will change his mind as quick as the Grenfell tower went on fire. Obviously I accept that he could prove me wrong. But time will tell.

Absolute nonsense.

Royal Legend

wakka12 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2017/0615/882886-london-fire/
Police are hoping death toll doesn't rise into triple digits, Im guessing identification of victims is taking a long time due to the danger of trying to reach the very unstable upper levels
17 deaths is just the tip of the iceberg.
Such destruction all because of greed.

Talk of potentially 150 plus, hopefully it won't rise much more than 17, but I think this would be wishful thinking.

Spanish Eyes

FTA69 wrote: »

Nah Corbyn is the real deal. He's been advocating for working people and council tenants for years. Fair play to him for heading down and showing a bit of leadership, engaging with the community. By the looks of it he was very well received. Say what you like about him, he's 100% genuine.

Whether people like it or not, politics has huge relevance to what happened here and we need real concrete solutions on housing as opposed to a few platitudes.

Corbyn is a veteran politician. He plays the game as good as the rest of them. You wouldn't be saying all this if he hadn't nipped the heels of the Tories in the recent election now would you?

Anyway for a far Leftie, he has a fine house in Islington worth nigh on a million pounds. I'm sure he could put up one or two of the survivors there. Man of principle that he is.

Grandeeod

Gringo180 wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.

Why?

Chester Copperpot

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Corbyn is a veteran politician. He plays the game as good as the rest of them. You wouldn't be saying all this if he hadn't nipped the heels of the Tories in the recent election now would you?

Anyway for a far Leftie, he has a fine house in Islington worth nigh on a million pounds. I'm sure he could put up one or two of the survivors there. Man of principle that he is.

London is a great city but there are areas where the level of poverty is shocking. Corbyn has a long long record of being a voice for the citizens that are disenfranchised on both local and global levels. He doesn't have to live in a hovel to do that

Spanish Eyes

Theresa May is as cold as ice, and would be using antibacterial hand gel anywhere outside of her home or Westminster....

But the day Corbyn lives in a tower block will be the day I'll believe his empathy.

Grandeeod

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

London is a great city but there are areas where the level of poverty is shocking. Corbyn has a long long record of being a voice for the citizens that are disenfranchised on both local and global levels. He doesn't have to live in a hovel to do that

When the voice gets power it changes its tone.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Corbyn is a veteran politician. He plays the game as good as the rest of them. You wouldn't be saying all this if he hadn't nipped the heels of the Tories in the recent election now would you?

Anyway for a far Leftie, he has a fine house in Islington worth nigh on a million pounds. I'm sure he could put up one or two of the survivors there. Man of principle that he is.

I always think this kind of reasoning is pure bull. He can't be a leftie because he has a nice house, he can't really care unless he gives bed and board to the surviviors. And if he doesn't he has no principles. Yeah, right.

I suppose you can't have an opinion on global warming unless you live with a drought? Or an opinion on poverty if you're not on the breadline? Or an opinion on gay rights if you're straight?

People act on and care about all kinds of issues outside their immediate sphere of expertise or experience. It's called awareness and activism, being working class yourself is not a prerequisiste to giving a crap about working class people or wanting a fair society. Suggesting people aren't principled or genuine on that reasoning is pretty stupid.

Spanish Eyes

Chester Copperpot wrote: »

London is a great city but there are areas where the level of poverty is shocking. Corbyn has a long long record of being a voice for the citizens that are disenfranchised on both local and global levels. He doesn't have to live in a hovel to do that

The bottom line is that London will bit by bit be cleared of social housing. Gentrification of every ward/borough in order to garner huge Council Taxes is the end game.

The poverty in London is the result of the high cost of living there. I visited recently and was gobsmacked at how expensive everything was. No wonder some people have a hard time there.

What is the solution? Those who can afford to live there will stay there, what about those who cannot? A London weighting for Housing Benefit/JSA/etc?

I don't hear much about UUUP North and poverty. Although I know it is there also. Possibly not to the same extent given the different costs of living.

Spanish Eyes

Candie wrote: »

I always think this kind of reasoning is pure bull. He can't be a leftie because he has a nice house, he can't really care unless he gives bed and board to the surviviors. And if he doesn't he has no principles. Yeah, right.

I suppose you can't have an opinion on global warming unless you live with a drought? Or an opinion on poverty if you're not on the breadline? Or an opinion on gay rights if you're straight?

People act on and care about all kinds of issues outside their immediate sphere of expertise or experience. It's called awareness and activism, being working class yourself is not a prerequisiste to giving a crap about working class people or wanting a fair society. Suggesting people aren't principled or genuine on that reasoning is pretty stupid.

I know all this. But honestly it is a bit hard to nod and agree with someone who says "yes it is terrible", and then slopes off to their nice house for coffee.

Instead of spouting platitudes what would you do?

Otherwise it is the adoration of someone who has everything and nods to those who have nothing.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I know all this. But honestly it is a bit hard to nod and agree with someone who says "yes it is terrible", and then slopes off to their nice house for coffee.

Instead of spouting platitudes what would you do?

Otherwise it is the adoration of someone who has everything and nods to those who have nothing.

Corbyn has been an active advocate for poorer people his entire political life.

He's not nodding, he walks the walk. Who'd doing the adoration btw? Acknowledging the positives isn't adoration. I suppose he'd have more credibility if he pitched a tent on a roundabout and wore rags, but most people don't think that's a necessity in order to acknowledge the real efforts a person makes towards a fairer society.

Of course, it doesn't tally with the stereotype of the career politician who pays lip service, but not everyone jumps to that lazy conclusion.

buried

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I know all this. But honestly it is a bit hard to nod and agree with someone who says "yes it is terrible", and then slopes off to their nice house for coffee.

Theresa May does that every night of the week Span, At least Corbyn has to make his own fecking cup of coffee

Spanish Eyes

Candie wrote: »

Corbyn has been an active advocate for poorer people his entire political life.

He's not nodding, he walks the walk. Who'd doing the adoration btw? Acknowledging the positives isn't adoration. I suppose he'd have more credibility if he pitched a tent on a roundabout and wore rags, but most people don't think that's a necessity in order to acknowledge the real efforts a person makes towards a fairer society.

Of course, it doesn't tally with the stereotype of the career politician who pays lip service, but not everyone jumps to that lazy conclusion.

Corbyn has been discovered since the recent election. He is now the Messiah.

I have no doubt that he worked tirelessly for the downtrodden for 30 odd years, and I really do admire him for that.

However, what did he achieve for all his work?

No one will beat the capitalist system nowadays. Unless there is a revolution. But that may have something to do with the Tories being in power for yonks too.

I am a sceptical bunny. With all of them both here and across the pond, and anywhere really. Guess why.

MyStubbleItches

Candie wrote: »

Corbyn has been an active advocate for poorer people his entire political life.

He's not nodding, he walks the walk. Who'd doing the adoration btw? Acknowledging the positives isn't adoration. I suppose he'd have more credibility if he pitched a tent on a roundabout and wore rags, but most people don't think that's a necessity in order to acknowledge the real efforts a person makes towards a fairer society.

Of course, it doesn't tally with the stereotype of the career politician who pays lip service, but not everyone jumps to that lazy conclusion.

.

Candie, I've read many of your posts with admiration. You're an intelligent, grounded poster here, possibly the most of both (admittedly off a low base but that demeans your credibility which isn't deserved). But do you really think that Corbyn wouldn't change his spots in the morning if elected to top office?

It's so easy to be in opposition.

I have no political interest btw.

Spanish Eyes

buried wrote: »

Theresa May does that every night of the week Span, At least Corbyn has to make his own fecking cup of coffee

No, his wife does that for him.:cool:

steddyeddy

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

.

Candie, I've read many of your posts with admiration. You're an intelligent, grounded poster here, possibly the most of both (admittedly off a low base but that demeans your credibility which isn't deserved). But do you really think that Corbyn wouldn't change his spots in the morning if elected to top office?

It's so easy to be in opposition.

I have no political interest btw.

Do you know how many times Corbyn voted against the party whip?

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Corbyn has been discovered since the recent election. He is now the Messiah.

I have no doubt that he worked tirelessly for the downtrodden for 30 odd years, and I really do admire him for that.

However, what did he achieve for all his work?

No one will beat the capitalist system nowadays. Unless there is a revolution. But that may have something to do with the Tories being in power for yonks too.

I am a sceptical bunny. With all of them both here and across the pond, and anywhere really. Guess why.

You need to read up a bit before you start assassinating characters.

I'm a Londoner though I don't live there atm. Just because you just heard his name recently doesn't make him a new discovery. Between his work with the unions and on London local councils, and his service as MP for Islington since the early eighties, he's proven his mettle and has always had my admiration for voting with his conscience and against the whip when he had to.

What did he achieve for all his work? He's the Leader of the Opposition ffs. Hopefully he'll be the next PM.

MyStubbleItches

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

.

Candie, I've read many of your posts with admiration. You're an intelligent, grounded poster here, possibly the most of both (admittedly off a low base but that demeans your credibility which isn't deserved). But do you really think that Corbyn wouldn't change his spots in the morning if elected to top office?

It's so easy to be in opposition.

I have no political interest btw.

I believe that Corbyn has the record for voting against the whip according to his conscience. Seriously if there is such a thing as a politician with integrity, Corbyn would be right up there.

I'm not terribly political myself, but my Grandfather has had many dealings with him and he's not an easily impressed man. He would consider Corbyn to be one of the most principled men he's ever known, and he doesn't hand out praise like that lightly.

I'd love to see Corbyn as PM, and if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. I don't think I am though.

Grandeeod

Candie wrote: »

I always think this kind of reasoning is pure bull. He can't be a leftie because he has a nice house, he can't really care unless he gives bed and board to the surviviors. And if he doesn't he has no principles. Yeah, right.

I suppose you can't have an opinion on global warming unless you live with a drought? Or an opinion on poverty if you're not on the breadline? Or an opinion on gay rights if you're straight?

People act on and care about all kinds of issues outside their immediate sphere of expertise or experience. It's called awareness and activism, being working class yourself is not a prerequisiste to giving a crap about working class people or wanting a fair society. Suggesting people aren't principled or genuine on that reasoning is pretty stupid.

I think the viewpoint you disagree with comes from the reality that a lot, if not all, Socialists, tend to be of the Champayne Socialist variety. Jeremy Corbyn comes from a background that is far removed from those he claims to campaign for. You can campaign if you have an opinion, but the examples you have quoted can be explained as follows.

Global warming - An environmental issue that was typically the topic for wealthy people or offspring with time on their hands. How many youngsters camped out in fields and forests that came from privalaged backgrounds. Do you remember Swampy?

Poverty - Some with an "opinion" on this topic have very decent salaries working for charities that play on peoples guilt or generosity. This particular forum many years ago had a thread that justified the six figure salaries that charity CEO's commanded, because of their education and expertise. Do you see where this is going?

The gay rights comparison is invalid context wise. We are talking about wealth and social responsibility. Being gay and being accepted came down to human nature among people. The two other issues above are perpetuated by class and money.

Spanish Eyes

Candie wrote: »

You need to read up a bit before you start assassinating characters.

I'm a Londoner though I don't live there atm. Just because you just heard his name recently doesn't make him a new discovery. Between his work with the unions and on London local councils, and his service as MP for Islington since the early eighties, he's proven his mettle and has always had my admiration for voting with his conscience and against the whip when he had to.

What did he achieve for all his work? He's the Leader of the Opposition ffs. Hopefully he'll be the next PM.

I didn't just hear his name recently. I do follow politics and other things too. I can multitask :eek:

But many have just discovered he exists since the recent election.

That's not untrue is it.

He may be a great man for this and that. Sure they all are, even Theresa May, bless her. She got elected aswell because her electorate liked her way of operating.

It will always be thus. He did this, she did that.

At the end of the day, they are all the same. Wait until Blessed Jeremy becomes PM and I hope he does, because that is when the real truth comes out. Theresa May is in tatters at the moment, and rightly so. She was cock of the walk a few weeks ago with a humungous majority in the polls. See what I mean.

Grandeeod

Grandeeod wrote: »

I think the viewpoint you disagree with comes from the reality that a lot, if not all, Socialists, tend to be of the Champayne Socialist variety. Jeremy Corbyn comes from a background that is far removed from those he claims to campaign for. You can campaign if you have an opinion, but the examples you have quoted can be explained as follows.

Global warming - An environmental issue that was typically the topic for wealthy people or offspring with time on their hands. How many youngsters camped out in fields and forests that came from privalaged backgrounds. Do you remember Swampy?

Poverty - Some with an "opinion" on this topic have very decent salaries working for charities that play on peoples guilt or generosity. This particular forum many years ago had a thread that justified the six figure salaries that charity CEO's commanded, because of their education and expertise. Do you see where this is going?

The gay rights comparison is invalid context wise. We are talking about wealth and social responsibility. Being gay and being accepted came down to human nature among people. The two other issues above are perpetuated by class and money.

This is dangerously close to saying that a persons background is a factor in whether or not they can represent the interests of others or not. Does that mean that a person from a challenging background should never be the minister for finance? Or that a person who's never been homeless can't take on the issue in government?

Saying someones opinion is invalid based on their background is wrong regardless of what that background is, and so is dismissing them as a champagne socialist. I'm not comparing Corbyn with him in any way, but consider that Gandhi was born to high caste and represented all of Indias poor as equals, do you think he did a bad job because he wasn't born into poverty himself?

BTW, give me someone well paid with education and expertise running a charity over a bunch of well meaning amateurs with no experience of maximising returns any day of the week. Within reason, of course.

mikeybrennan

ChunkyLover54 wrote: »

Witness on sky now saying fire started on the lower floors and spread upwards. A catastrophe.

OK Einstein

Grandeeod

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you know how many times Corbyn voted against the party whip?

He was famous for it under the Blair Government and a bit of Brown too. I just feel that if he got into power, he would soon change. But once again this is a case of time will tell if it happens. My own opinion is based on history of Lab in Government in both the UK and Ireland. No balls bandwagoners. A pity really.

Grandeeod

Candie wrote: »

This is dangerously close to saying that a persons background is a factor in whether or not they can represent the interests of others or not. Does that mean that a person from a challenging background should never be the minister for finance? Or that a person who's never been homeless can't take on the issue in government?

Saying someones opinion is invalid based on their background is wrong regardless of what that background is, and so is dismissing them as a champagne socialist. I'm not comparing Corbyn with him in any way, but consider that Gandhi was born to high caste and represented all of Indias poor as equals, do you think he did a bad job because he wasn't born into poverty himself?

BTW, give me someone well paid with education and expertise running a charity over a bunch of well meaning amateurs with no experience of maximising returns any day of the week. Within reason, of course.

First bolded point. - I would love to see more of that, but I believe and from being an ex Lab party member in Ireland - its not gonna happen.

Second bolded point. - The rip off will continue. Personally I do not like charity CEO's driving big swanky cars and commanding six figure salaries.

There is an industry based around helping the working person and the poorer in society and yet it never gets resolved.

buried

It's going to be an actual real 'Brexit' for Britain when Rupert Murdoch's twisted brain is buried deep in the ground, back in his own beloved Australia.

4068ac1elhodqr

buried wrote: »

It's going to be an actual real 'Brexit' for Britain when Rupert Murdoch's twisted brain is buried deep in the ground, back in his own beloved Australia.

Australia & UK will most likely get closer ties, particularly in the movement of people. Aus has made it much harder this year for anyone without very good English skills to get it.

Not sure what that's got to do with preventing hi-rise fires btw.
The company that did this cosmetic project has a nice portfolio of similar projects.

buried

Makayla Petite Disc wrote: »

Australia & UK will most likely get closer ties, particularly in the movement of people. Aus has made it much harder this year for anyone without very good English skills to get it.

Not sure what that's got to do with preventing hi-rise fires btw.
The company that did this cosmetic project has a nice portfolio of similar projects.

It has everything to do with it. Ever since that demented little $hitrat set foot on British soil he's done nothing but divide the people living on the island. Using his media tools to brainwash an entire country. The establishment allowing him full frontal freedom into treating their own people like absolute commodities of $hit to further his own demented, f**ked up ends.
Making money, fame, and absolute bull$hit illusion to be the actual king queen and head of state. This is how the situation arises to place flammable cladding on buildings to make the building "look better" comes about.
He has everything to do with it. And soon he'll be dead, and god willing I'll still be around to see it, and party it up for a week when it happens for my British neighbours across the way being relieved of his 60 years of brainwashing media bull$hit

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I didn't just hear his name recently. I do follow politics and other things too. I can multitask :eek:

But many have just discovered he exists since the recent election.

Well presumably you live somewhere in Ireland and not London so it's hardly surprising you haven't heard of him, is it?

He's not a new discovery to the people who have the power to vote him in or out and I can't see why you'd think he is.

pangbang

buried wrote: »

It's going to be an actual real 'Brexit' for Britain when Rupert Murdoch's twisted brain is buried deep in the ground, back in his own beloved Australia.

When some media guy dies it should reverse all current human trends, for sure.

Climate change will reverse, India and China will cease all industrialisation, America comes back to the fold.

Politicians will become leaders, the first time since circa the last roman empire, rather than convenient mouthpieces to be led by emotional plebs.

People will change too, they will look beyond the obvious fact that distinct belief in political class is merely a matter of coincidence, and not shared idealism.

Murdoch biting the dust will hold back mass human migration, automation, stop unstoppable climate damage, create infinite resource for an unmanageable amount of people ..........and so on.

Or in other words, yeah, Corbyn is the answer. May is the answer, Murdoch dying is the answer.

"hearing nice things from someone far removed from the actual consequences of the things they talk about"......is the answer :rolleyes:

Whatever, Trevor. The world will wake up one day. And whats the conversation above got to do with the tower fire anyway?

fryup

anyone spot Fr Neil Horan lingering in the background amongst the crowd this afternoon?