London Fire and Aftermath RIP

Irishweather

mikeybrennan wrote: »

The Tories might have to spend money on poor people

God forbid

Are you speaking from experience as a resident of the United Kingdom?

AllGunsBlazing

mikeybrennan wrote: »

People will have to do jail time for this

Unfathomable in 2017 that such a hazardous refurb is carried out

The stark reality is that the work done on the tower may very well have been done to all applicable specifications and standards. And the people who are responsible for those standards won't be sending themselves to prison anytime soon either.

Gringo180

Irishweather wrote: »

Are you speaking from experience as a resident of the United Kingdom?

You dont have to be living in the UK to know the Tories are morally bankrupt of any human decency towards the working class and poor in society. There everything thats wrong with modern day society, they put the £££ before there citizens and always have.

Gringo180

Widdershins wrote: »

I've just seen that on Facebook. She's going by figures police and firemen gave her, off the record, you know. :rolleyes:

Corbyn ''Seize the rich's property!'' and petitions to form a million-strong mob and ''force'' May out and ''allow Corbyn to be PM''.

It's all happening so much faster than I expected. Dark days ahead for the UK if it continues down this road. Read your history, people

What are you trying to say? The Tories have blood on there hands and are complicit to manslaughter, people are angry and want answers what on earth do you expect them to be doing holding hands and making daisy chains with the Tories?

orangerhyme

20 floors, 120 apartments, 80 two-beds and 40 one-beds,

First 4 floors are offices, reception etc.

I've read nobody above 14th floor survived.

Also read 600 people lived there, 400 elsewhere.

So 20 to 30 people per floor.
10 floors werent rescued.

150 is a reasonable figure.

Nobody will say it while emotions are high and crowds are gathered.
Riots always happen in summer and good weather.
Right now peoples energies are focused on the relief and help effort. This will pass.
I predict riots in London this weekend

Murrisk

Grandeeod wrote: »

Thanks for that. All day today my thoughts are with those affected at Grenfell Tower. Fire is such a positive, yet bloody destructive thing. The Stardust fire is stuck in my head too because it was, a recent at the time, reminder to my family of that day in Summerland. I remember the conversations the following year at the remembrance. But we move on and I look forward to the cause of todays terrible event being found so things can hopefully get better. Its all one can do.

RIP to the dead. Horrible horrible thing to happen.

In my first reply to you, I was very careful to call it an incident, not an accident. I remember reading about Summerland and being shocked at what a deathtrap the building was with the materials they used and how lax things seem to have been back then. But, I thought at least we can learn from these tragedies. But here we are, 40 years later, and improper materials and construction seemed to have been a huge issue here too. It should not be happening still.

markodaly

Gringo180 wrote: »

What are you trying to say? The Tories have blood on there hands and are complicit to manslaughter, people are angry and want answers what on earth do you expect them to be doing holding hands and making daisy chains with the Tories?

No, sorry, the Torries do not have blood on their hands. The very fact that people are using this tragedy as a political football speaks volumes about the character and morals of those people.

Irishweather

markodaly wrote: »

No, sorry, the Torries do not have blood on their hands. The very fact that people are using this tragedy as a political football speaks volumes about the character and morals of those people.

+1.

So many many people dead or injured.

So many many posts about the Tories or Corbyn.

BBDBB

I think the wider truth is that in both the UK and Ireland we are in a race to the bottom and all the politicians seem to be missing it in their desire to be seen to be the most caring/angry/concerned etc

Someone made a decision to choose the bid of the company that put in the non fire retardant cladding.They (probably a small sub section of a local authority committee)chose a bid out of several and didn't stop to question the hows or whys of that bid. How can it be cheaper? Where are they cutting corners and whats the consequence of that? No, its just about the bottom line, does it fit within budget. I bet that their bid was the lowest. (That is a guess, I don't know for certain, however Im sure many of you will recognise the strong likelihood of it being true) A few quid was saved at the time and now its cost lives.

But heres a question for you, in whatever industry you work in, how often in recent years have you/ your employer lost out a bit of business because someone else says they can do it cheaper? You know the costs of materials and skilled labour in your industry and yet someone else says we can undercut everyone else and can do it just as good but cheaper, so they must be squeezing some margin somewhere.

So whilst this is a tremendous tragedy, it shouldn't come as a shock, all around us corners are cut to give us cheap goods, buildings, local services, flights, electrical goods, prisons, roads public transport, food etc etc all produced as cheaply as possible and given the minimum of maintenance because it would cost too much.

The Grenfell fire is a tragedy, no question and it is only the thinnest end of the wedge

Call me Al

I would love to know the weightings in the procurement process involved in the selection of these materials and suppliers.
In light of the fire dangers repeatedly highlighted in this building by the residents how high is health and safety (or its equivalent) graded on the list. It should be top and weighted appropriately.
This will I hope all become public knowledge quite soon.

Eta if the suppliers have supplied according to spec and haven't cut corners whilst on the job, and there is no issue with workmanship, the procurement process and building regs that facilitates this tragedy are where I see the liability and responsibility (at the very least moral) lying.

glenfieldman

I have a very uneasy feeling today regarding the Grenfell tower fire. The last couple of days have been full of shock, anguish and grief, but unfortunately after this comes anger.
With so many disenfranchised people getting no justice or closure, I can only see one sad outcome - RIOTS.
In 2011 after Mark Duggan was shot by police, local protests turned into some of the worst riots the UK have seen. That was one guy killed by the establishment, according to reports over 100 may have died due to very shabby local council housing policy's.
There is a lot more angry people today than there was in 2011, and I hope I am wrong but I can see their anger directed at Kensington and Chelsea London Borough Council, and some of the elitist mansions in that area.

Yourself isit

Riots would be justified.

Lily Allen thinks the death toll is being massaged.

beans

Gotta get your new trainers for the sunny days ahead...

GBX

The death toll cannot be confirmed yet till the actually find the bodies.

There is a huge divide between the lower class and everyone else in that part of London and residents have the right to be pissed off. Hopefully it doesn't become riots but no doubt there will be many protests.

stimpson

Yourself isit wrote: »

Lily Allen thinks the death toll is being massaged.

Well if Lily Allen says so it must be true. After all she is a celebrity.

glenfieldman

There is a rally planned for tonight, emotions are too raw, its start of the weekend and good weather. I dont mean to sound glib but thats the ingredients for social unrest.
And if the Met are out in large numbers that could insight more anger in an already powerfully angry rally.

Like I said, I really hope I am wrong, because over the last decade London has had enough

ohnonotgmail

orangerhyme wrote: »

20 floors, 120 apartments, 80 two-beds and 40 one-beds,

First 4 floors are offices, reception etc.

I've read nobody above 14th floor survived.

Also read 600 people lived there, 400 elsewhere.

So 20 to 30 people per floor.
10 floors werent rescued.

150 is a reasonable figure.

Nobody will say it while emotions are high and crowds are gathered.
Riots always happen in summer and good weather.
Right now peoples energies are focused on the relief and help effort. This will pass.
I predict riots in London this weekend

where did you read that? I've definitely read of survivors above that floor.

Yourself isit

stimpson wrote: »

Well if Lily Allen says so it must be true. After all she is a celebrity.

She generally annoys me but she is probably right here.

PARlance

stimpson wrote: »

Well if Lily Allen says so it must be true. After all she is a celebrity.

We all know what they're like. I still refuse to take Katie Melua's estimation on Beijing.

glenfieldman

glenfieldman wrote: »

There is a rally planned for tonight, emotions are too raw, its start of the weekend and good weather. I dont mean to sound glib but thats the ingredients for social unrest.
And if the Met are out in large numbers that could insight more anger in an already powerfully angry rally.

Like I said, I really hope I am wrong, because over the last decade London has had enough

Coming into summer as well.

stimpson

Yourself isit wrote: »

She generally annoys me but she is probably right here.

The official numbers come from the emergency services as they would know the number of confirmed dead. There would be considerable difficulty reaching and identifying bodies on the upper floors of the building and nobody expects the number to stay at 17.

She is just stirring shit. Beyond offering support and resources to the victims, celebs should keep their traps shut. The last thing needed is conspiracy nuts winding people up.

somefeen

glenfieldman wrote: »

There is a rally planned for tonight, emotions are too raw, its start of the weekend and good weather. I dont mean to sound glib but thats the ingredients for social unrest.
And if the Met are out in large numbers that could insight more anger in an already powerfully angry rally.

Like I said, I really hope I am wrong, because over the last decade London has had enough

Its hard not to be angry for them. I'd be surprised if this doesn't turn into a riot, the level of inequality between rich and poor in the UK is staggering. Ireland has its problems but at least we have SOME social mobility and a decent social welfare system.

tara73

Deleted User wrote: »

So many many people dead or injured.

So many many posts about the Tories or Corbyn.

yes, and? this posts about the politicians are very relevant regarding the injured and dead people. The government is responsible for regulations, they allowed this disaster to happen. And this is not the first fire disaster, people were pointing out to change fire regulations, but nothing happened.

Widdershins

mikeybrennan wrote: »

The Tories might have to spend money on poor people

God forbid

Like my friend who keeps making himself officially ''homeless'' despite owning two houses and constantly complaining about his rate of benefits. He rejects the help he is offered and prefers to be a victim. There's more than meets the eye to the sob stories of Tory heartlessness.

I've actually just noticed the post about the amount of political comments and have to admit I forgot what thread I was on after reading a load of those comments last night. I too abhor political pointscoring from tragedies so I'm unfollowing this thread.

osarusan

If this is genuine, it makes me want to cave some fucking heads in at that paper.

Utter scum.

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

If this is genuine, it makes me want to cave some fucking heads in at that paper.

Utter scum.

https://scontent.flhr5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19145710_10155340218950350_4662630102099045638_n.jpg?oh=1fff2a8178e63365c0c8b599b95dce18&oe=59CE894A

It is real, though it doesn't seem to be the main Daily Mail twitter for whatever reason. Dirty bastards.

buried

The sun also printed a picture of that man

Absolute garbage rags

Wasting no time once again to show how disgusting they both are

tara73

tara73 wrote: »

yes, and? this posts about the politicians are very relevant regarding the injured and dead people. The government is responsible for regulations, they allowed this disaster to happen. And this is not the first fire disaster, people were pointing out to change fire regulations, but nothing happened.

Yes yes yes, but which Government?

The Labour Government that had soooo much money through the boom? Think Corbyn was part of that party through all that expenditure, was he talking about fire regulations or the Sandanistas and Nicaragua? How about Harold Wilson and Labour and the 1970 building regulations introduced in the wake of the Ronan Point gas explosion. Were they not up to scratch? Maybe it was Thatcher, and the 1980s Tories?

To say it was this politician or that party is simply idle nonsense. I mean, do we actually know the cause yet, and the year the problem was created, and the legislation that was or wasn't there at the time?

If you're going to blame "the Government", be specific. Otherwise it's only dancing on the graves of the victims to make cheap political points. And absolving all others, builders, planning or fire regulation officials, those who made the materials, if it was arson or error that ignited it, those people.

tara73

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

The stark reality is that the work done on the tower may very well have been done to all applicable specifications and standards. And the people who are responsible for those standards won't be sending themselves to prison anytime soon either.

this I believe too at this stage. if you go on the website of the main contractor for the refurbishment of the tower, Rydon Contractors, they are a very big company, they were doing a lot of this tower block refurbishments for the management companies, speak the authorities.
they have a lot of experience and I doubt they used a material not in compliance with the fire regulations.

but somebody else posted the article in the Times, it says it all, it's written there that this material is banned in the U.S and Germany and probably in many other countries.
As we see, with reason.