London Fire and Aftermath RIP

fatknacker

She's a dope. As if the British media downplay anything. Of course there are many more people who have died but until they've been identified it's not being reported.
Celebrities and entertainers need to fck off and not make their voices heard for this particular tragedy.

orangerhyme

They will have an official number of residents. This won't be 100% accurate of course as since it's central London, they might sub let to friends and family.
Anyway, my point still stands and I agree with Lily Allen, the authorities and media are deliberately not releasing the number of fatalities to prevent unrest.
After 9/11 figures were being thrown around constantly although they never identified many victims.
They will know by now the approximate number of missing and unaccounted.

I also think this will give ideas to ISIS.
How many tower blocks in London have same cladding and no sprinkler system?
Far easier way to massacre innocent people

fatknacker

fatknacker wrote: »

She's a dope. As if the British media downplay anything. Of course there are many more people who have died but until they've been identified it's not being reported.
Celebrities and entertainers need to fck off and not make their voices heard for this particular tragedy.

The media will have heard off-the-record numbers and up until a few years ago would have reported that. In recent years they rarely seem to do so after the first few hours when that'll be a lower number anyway.

orangerhyme

Ok BBC have reported 76 missing and 30 confirmed fatalities.
I'd imagine there's an overlap of those figures.

But still, that's the first unofficial figure released.

mikeybrennan

The cladding with the cheaper PE core cost £22 sq. Metre

The fire-resistant cladding cost an extra £2 sq. Metre

Atlantic Dawn

mikeybrennan wrote: »

The cladding with the cheaper PE core cost ?22 sq. Metre

The fire-resistant cladding cost an extra ?2 sq. Metre

I hope the person who approved that this cheaper stuff could be used is locked up rather than a witch hunt on those who actually made the decision to fit it.

The Backwards Man

Who knew we had so many experts on major incident protocol on boards on a weekday in the middle of the day?

FrancieBrady

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I hope the person who approved that this cheaper stuff could be used is locked up rather than a witch hunt on those who actually made the decision to fit it.

I would be deeply suspicious of that info.
I buy the PE stuff all the time and higher grades are significantly more expensive.
Not that it matters, it should have been fireproof. But sensationalising won't help either.

Rjd2

suicide_circus wrote: »

What do people think Theresa May would achieve by going round and shaking hands other than a photo op which people would then brand as cynical?

Optics are very important in politics.

After a poor election where she was criticised as showing no emotion and was nicknamed "Maybot" by Tories,this was a chance to hug someone, have a cry, feel their pain and connect with ordinary grieving people.

Leadsom has shown up today to talk to people affected by this, if this is another case of May hiding and sending someone else to do her work, then she is an even bigger coward than I thought.

orangerhyme

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Who knew we had so many experts on major incident protocol on boards on a weekday in the middle of the day?

Never claimed to an expert. Doesn't take an expert to work out that austerity and cuts causing the deaths of dozens of children might lead to civil unrest and that authorities will try to control it.

As regards pinning the blame on someone: the guardian did a feature on the contractors, suppliers, manufacturers etc...I think it'll be difficult to hold people accountable.

Sophie Khan also questioned why a public inquiry was declared by PM May as opposed to an inquest. Inquests involve the public and jury whereas enquiries are managed by the government. She was implying May did this to keep control of the situation.

orangerhyme

The optics on this are awful.
They basically wrapped a building in plastic to make it look better for wealthy neighbours instead of making it safer for the poor residents inside.
Have a read of the "Grenfell action group" blog. Complaints about safety going back years.
Look at the tiny little access road on Google maps. It's no wonder the fire brigade and emergency services couldn't get a handle on the situation.
The blog specifically complained about this access road. They said a tragedy would happen before anything is done. They were sent a cease and desist letter by the council.

I predict a riot.

josip

orangerhyme wrote: »

... Doesn't take an expert to work out that austerity and cuts causing the deaths of dozens of children might lead to civil unrest and that authorities will try to control it.
...

orangerhyme wrote: »

....
Anyway, my point still stands and I agree with Lily Allen, the authorities and media are deliberately not releasing the number of fatalities to prevent unrest.
...

orangerhyme wrote: »

I believe rioting is top of their minds.
...

orangerhyme wrote: »

...
If they release this figure, with the current angry crowds, there will be protests followed by riots.
Britain is a tinder keg.

orangerhyme wrote: »

...
Nobody will say it while emotions are high and crowds are gathered.
Riots always happen in summer and good weather.
Right now peoples energies are focused on the relief and help effort. This will pass.
I predict riots in London this weekend

orangerhyme wrote: »

...I predict a riot.

Ok, I think everyone here is aware of the point you're trying to make by now.

Allinall

orangerhyme wrote: »

The optics on this are awful.
They basically wrapped a building in plastic to make it look better for wealthy neighbours instead of making it safer for the poor residents inside.
Have a read of the "Grenfell action group" blog. Complaints about safety going back years.
Look at the tiny little access road on Google maps. It's no wonder the fire brigade and emergency services couldn't get a handle on the situation.
The blog specifically complained about this access road. They said a tragedy would happen before anything is done. They were sent a cease and desist letter by the council.

I predict a riot.

I get the distinct impression that you're hoping for a riot..

robinph

orangerhyme wrote: »

I believe rioting is top of their minds.
Remember Aug 2011?
That was over an adult male criminal being shot by police.
How will people react when dozens of children have burnt to death?
Anti austerity protests have been common in England since the Tories got elected. This is a disaster in part caused by council cuts.

Why have the media not released a figure? Lily Allen is correct, she's on the ground, sees the anger.
I bet by today the authorities have a pretty good estimate of the number of victims and the media knows it too.

How will the release of an estimated number of deaths now cause rioting? If people are going to riot about this then having a number released isn't going to be the trigger and I can't see how anyone in the emergency services would be assuming that it would be.

You'll have to explain your thinking for how the police saying X people died would cause a riot. Everyone knows that the number is going to be higher than the currently confirmed numbers, everyone knows that whole families and children have been wiped out at the same time.

orangerhyme

When emotions are high, its easier for authorities to control the situation with a slow drip feed of fatalities rather than saying "100 missing and unaccounted for".
The official death toll when Lily Allen made that statement was 12!

robinph

orangerhyme wrote: »

When emotions are high, its easier for authorities to control the situation with a slow drip feed of fatalities rather than saying "100 missing and unaccounted for".
The official death toll when Lily Allen made that statement was 12!

Think you need to head over to the Conspiracy Theories forum.

There is nothing being kept secret, the numbers are just not yet known by anyone. The number of flats in the building and the number of people that they think were living there has been out in the public domain since the start, but that number still has a variation of a couple of hundred on the top figure possible.

orangerhyme

Look up what Sophie Khan said about Theresa May calling for a public inquiry as opposed to an inquest and tell me its a conspiracy.

This tragedy has potential to lead to large scale civil unrest and the authorities will do their best to control it.
Theres nothing of the tinfoil hat brigade about that statement.

Glenster

orangerhyme wrote: »

When emotions are high, its easier for authorities to control the situation with a slow drip feed of fatalities rather than saying "100 missing and unaccounted for".
The official death toll when Lily Allen made that statement was 12!

Does no one else think its a good idea that people aren't pronounced dead until there is evidence, beyond doubt, of their death?

Lily Allen should stick to making anodyne music, offensive videos, and announcing every other week that's she's deleting her social media.

robinph

orangerhyme wrote: »

Look up what Sophie Khan said about Theresa May calling for a public inquiry as opposed to an inquest and tell me its a conspiracy.

This tragedy has potential to lead to large scale civil unrest and the authorities will do their best to control it.
Theres nothing of the tinfoil hat brigade about that statement.

Not denying that people are mad about this and things could kick off.

But I don't for one second believe that the police are lying about the numbers of dead or trying to fudge how they release it in order to prevent a riot. Everyone has seen the pictures and knows that a large number of people died horrifically. A statement from the police saying that 100/ 200/ 300 people died doesn't change a thing as far as how pissed off people are, other than that they do not know at this stage so would be lying and would have to revise it again later.

If anything it's worse doing things this way as they will have to repeatedly keep adding to the numbers as they work their way up through the building retrieving bodies, and that just keeps it in the news cycle more and for longer.

bodhrandude

They'd be lucky if there is any bodies left to retrieve, I'd say most of the top floors they are mostly likely cremated, there wouldn't be even charred remains, it would be just ash surely.

shaunr68

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's the police and fire service making announcements on the death toll and that will be dependent on the number of bodies recovered. The death toll will increase as they find more bodies. It's tin foil hat territory to imagine the government issuing secret orders to the police and fire service to suppress the numbers.

AllForIt

Don't think there will be any riots, demonstrations possibly. The 2011 riots were made up largely young men who had a problem with the police. It ppl went around rioting and setting things on fire it wouldn't do much for their cause or credibility. Of course there will always be ppl out there trying to stir things up. Not mentioning any names.

Ulysses Gaze

Lily Allen is Mad.

So why anyone would listen to what she has to say ahead of relevant authorities, I don't know.

Boom_Bap

A bit harsh on Lilly Allen no? She lives near there and went down to try help out much like most of the community has. I'm sure that the media would have latched onto her for an interview rather than the other way around, it's the nature of the beast.

Ulysses Gaze

Boom_Bap wrote: »

A bit harsh on Lilly Allen no? She lives near there and went down to try help out much like most of the community has. I'm sure that the media would have latched onto her for an interview rather than the other way around, it's the nature of the beast.

So did Rita Ora and Adele, but you don't see them smeared all over the media shouting about conspiracy theories.

Boom_Bap

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

So did Rita Ora and Adele, but you don't see them smeared all over the media shouting about conspiracy theories.

I'd say that's something to do with the media training they have. There have been others like Akala there as well giving interview, but because they are being articulate you don't see them 'smeared all over the media'. The media want to sensationalise and the media outlets are pushing Lilly rather then her chasing media outlets to spread her interview.

Pointing fingers at her is distracting away from the event.

CeilingFly

orangerhyme wrote: »

The optics on this are awful.
They basically wrapped a building in plastic to make it look better for wealthy neighbours instead of making it safer for the poor residents inside.

Don't take one single sentence from a multi page report and think that's the only reason.

That's what the gutter press do to suit their own sensationalist hysterical scaremongering agenda.

When I painted my hopuse last eyar I did it because I wanted it to look nice as I approached it - that the neighbours also might think it looked well is no matter.

Same here - the cladding is an insulated cladding that gives a modern look AND provides much needed insulation for a early 70's built concrete block that was freezing in winter. They also installed double glazed windows.

The error was they opted for a non fire resistant insulation material that was about 10% cheaper (about £300,000 cheaper).


The errors here are following

1 - issue with the material used in the cladding rather than the cladding itself
2 - issue with fire doors
3 - issue with emergency lighting
4 - issue with other fire safety aspects

In a "normal fire" in a properly fire risked falt / apartment building, the fire should be well contained within the specific area for a period long enough for fire tender to arrive and quell.


What has to be done now is to get the findings and ensure that they are applied retrospectively to all large apartment / flat complexes and hopefully authorities here will also check for such risks over here. - though we have very few such old style blocks (UK has over 7,000!)

Sleepy

Add in the recent election and referendum results in the UK and you could well be right. All the ingredients are there for it to kick off.

Bet the met are only praying for rain tonight!

orangerhyme

They also changed the heating system from a centralised one to individual boilers in each flat.
This involved running the gas pipes up the staircase!

Donald Trump

PARlance wrote: »

stimpson wrote: »

Well if Lily Allen says so it must be true. After all she is a celebrity.

We all know what they're like. I still refuse to take Katie Melua's estimation on Beijing.

How dare you. Katie is a ride therefore I accept everything that she says without question

(Although she did do a scientifically/factually accurate version later if I recall)

Edit: See below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhxDDY1GYI