London Fire and Aftermath RIP

Itssoeasy

I spoke to an ex chief fire officer in Ireland tonight about the horrific scenes in London and he said he'd never seen nor heard of a case like it. He also said he watched the pictures on the morning it happened and they frightened him.

I mean even though it's a London based tradegy, it's clear to me that firemen all over seem shaken by what they saw.

prinzeugen

laugh wrote: »

This time?

Any reasonable person should find it warranted to march about what has happened here.

What though? Its a anti Tory march. Feck all to do with the fire.

Look at the banners.. Socialist Worker "Bring the Tories down". And you get the usual " shame on you" chant.

Nothing to do with the fire and nothing there are no facts.

That is why there is a public inquiry. I know about fires.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=400

Richard Hillman

There are some serious sociopathic people involved in the left movement. They couldn't give a rat's arse about the people who died, they just want to instigate violence.

This stuff has been escalating online since Trump got elected and sponsored by the media. Every day you see death threats and threats of violence on Twitter directed at politicians or right wing journalists without anybody in the MSM raising an eye.

Now we have had an assassination attempt on many republicans during the week, you have ANTIFA and BLM groups acting like terrorists, Jeremy Corbyn supporters attacking and threatening election campaigners and now the leftist groups in the UK are actively trying to incite riots.

There is a violent storm coming. And it is coming from genuinely unhinged people that are abusing politics as part of their personal issues.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

The UK government have come off appallingly bad through this tragedy and they need to start getting real about the situation quickly. The UK has been through quite a bit of strife recently and the last thing it needs right now is another London riot.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There are some serious sociopathic people involved in the left movement. They couldn't give a rat's arse about the people who died, they just want to instigate violence.

This stuff has been escalating online since Trump got elected and sponsored by the media. Every day you see death threats and threats of violence on Twitter directed at politicians or right wing journalists without anybody in the MSM raising an eye.

Now we have had an assassination attempt on many republicans during the week, you have ANTIFA and BLM groups acting like terrorists, Jeremy Corbyn supporters attacking and threatening election campaigners and now the leftist groups in the UK are actively trying to incite riots.

There is a violent storm coming. And it is coming from genuinely unhinged people that are abusing politics as part of their personal issues.

You seem to have a very narrow view of how all of this is playing out in the UK. It is the 1 year anniversary of a MP who was murdered by a right wing nutjob in the UK. But you are bringing Trump and American gun violence and left wing activism into a thread about this fire.

This tragedy can be brought down to the fact that £2 extra per square metre wasn't spent on installing inflammable materials, on a £10 million upgrade.

end of the road

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There are some serious sociopathic people involved in the left movement. They couldn't give a rat's arse about the people who died, they just want to instigate violence.

This stuff has been escalating online since Trump got elected and sponsored by the media. Every day you see death threats and threats of violence on Twitter directed at politicians or right wing journalists without anybody in the MSM raising an eye.

Now we have had an assassination attempt on many republicans during the week, you have ANTIFA and BLM groups acting like terrorists, Jeremy Corbyn supporters attacking and threatening election campaigners and now the leftist groups in the UK are actively trying to incite riots.

There is a violent storm coming. And it is coming from genuinely unhinged people that are abusing politics as part of their personal issues.

look, both extremes of the political spectrum are as bad as each other. neither of the extremes care about anyone but themselves.

Lucy8080

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I spoke to an ex chief fire officer in Ireland tonight about the horrific scenes in London and he said he'd never seen nor heard of a case like it. He also said he watched the pictures on the morning it happened and they frightened him.

I mean even though it's a London based tradegy, it's clear to me that firemen all over seem shaken by what they saw.

I've heard that there has never been a death from fire in Britain when a sprinkler system was in place.

The solution may be as simple as that.

I have also heard it said that the price of installing a system in Grenfell would have been a 1/4 of a million pounds.

If those figures/facts are true , a massive fcuk up has happened here.

bodhrandude

Originally Posted by orangerhyme View Post
Google "mermoz tower fire roubaix, france 2012".
Theres a video on YouTube.
Small fire on balcony spreads up the entire facade in just a couple of minutes. Videos of Dubai and Germany. That stuff is lethal. It seems more flammable than wood!

It'll be banned across Europe in weeks Id imagine.

Is this the French fire you were talking about orangerhyme, the fire building is so rapid, in the space of a minute and a half about. I couldn't find your original post so copied and pasted the quote of someone quoting you.

Lucy8080

bodhrandude wrote: »

Originally Posted by orangerhyme View Post
Google "mermoz tower fire roubaix, france 2012".
Theres a video on YouTube.
Small fire on balcony spreads up the entire facade in just a couple of minutes. Videos of Dubai and Germany. That stuff is lethal. It seems more flammable than wood!

It'll be banned across Europe in weeks Id imagine.

Is this the French fire you were talking about orangerhyme, the fire building is so rapid, in the space of a minute and a half about. I couldn't find your original post so copied and pasted the quote of someone quoting you.

That is frightening.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

This tragedy can be brought down to the fact that £2 extra per square metre wasn't spent on installing inflammable materials, on a £10 million upgrade.

So that's wholly to blame?

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I've heard that there has never been a death from fire in Britain when a sprinkler system was in place.

The solution may be as simple as that.

I have also heard it said that the price of installing a system in Grenfell would have been a 1/4 of a million pounds.

I'm lost again.

Think I'll wait for the results of the Inquiry.

Lucy8080

Deleted User wrote: »

So that's wholly to blame?



I'm lost again.

Think I'll wait for the results of the Inquiry.

yup, I think we all will have to wait. I don't think there is much doubt now about the danger of this type of cladding ( and maybe a perfect storm of other factors).

But, it seems to me that a sprinkler system would have swung the odds of survival (even with a perfect storm of unforeseen events).

bodhrandude

Lucy8080 wrote: »

bodhrandude wrote: »

Originally Posted by orangerhyme View Post
Google "mermoz tower fire roubaix, france 2012".
Theres a video on YouTube.
Small fire on balcony spreads up the entire facade in just a couple of minutes. Videos of Dubai and Germany. That stuff is lethal. It seems more flammable than wood!

It'll be banned across Europe in weeks Id imagine.

That is frightening.

This article references the Mermoz, Melbourne and Glenfell fire and criticises the use of shoddy cladding.

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/london-fire-melbourne-skyscraper-fire-caused-by-shoddy-cladding-may-have-been-a-warning-for-london/news-story/6de8652286b765f369e779be3062a45f

FTA69

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

'Missing presumed dead'?

Who the hell hides from their loved ones after a tragedy like this?

Someone in a coma in hospital

Lady is a tramp

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

'Missing presumed dead'?

Who the hell hides from their loved ones after a tragedy like this?

Well say for example, the records show a family of five living in one of the two-bed apartments. In reality, the family have long moved on and the tenants of that particular apartment have changed a couple of times since, and in fact the apartment is now occupied by a single man who wasn't even there the night of the fire. The paperwork was never updated, though.

The family of five, who are long gone, don't even know they're on the missing list, so don't think to tell anyone they're fine. I mean, of course their families know, but neither they nor their families are aware there's any concern over them.

So why inflate the "death" figures unnecessarily? I don't get why some people think the authorities are trying to hide something - everyone f*cking knows that the death toll is going to be regularly revised upwards for quite a while, who knows when we'll have a final figure, does it even matter? The fact is that many people died, a full investigation is warranted (even IF the death toll stood as it is today), and a full investigation will no doubt be carried out, but people cannot and should not expect answers while the fire is still probably smouldering in parts of the building!

Give the relevant people time to do their job. No point demanding justice if it's a rush job, based on mobs wanting to see heads roll for the sake of it.

mikeybrennan

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I've heard that there has never been a death from fire in Britain when a sprinkler system was in place.

The solution may be as simple as that.

I have also heard it said that the price of installing a system in Grenfell would have been a 1/4 of a million pounds.

If those figures/facts are true , a massive fcuk up has happened here.

I believe it would cost much more

Enzokk

For those that comment that people should wait for the inquiries and investigations before demanding justice, remember it took 27 years for the Hillsborough disaster to return a verdict of unlawful killing. The newspapers started blaming the victims after 3 days after the tragedy. People remember this and see this as another chance for those in charge to not take responsibility and shift the blame onto the poor.

Already you have a PM that is just not accepting any responsibility and just repeating statements. She also seems to think the support they are giving is somehow a positive when it should be a given and not something to draw attention to. When people abuse the Queen you know there is anger and a little sympathy from all sides would have helped simmer the anger instead of allowing it to boil.

Widdershins

Sadiq Khan apparently did a stint as undersecretary of state for communities and local government from 2008 - 2009, with responsibility for policy on (among other things) building regulations, housing and fire services. I believe regulations regarding fire safety have been left un-reviewed since 2006.

It explains why he was heckled when he went down there.

Calina

It is possible that some people in that block were estranged from family and friends. I would never assume that it is as simple as Who would hide from loved ones. There are many personal tragedies and there were a few one bed apartments in that block. There are people who may only have had contact with their neighbours who are also missing.

Iirc correctly there are 15 in a serious condition. This suggests that the max no missing because they are unconscious is 15 and is probably less.

Tower block is like a community. If a lot of it disappears, so too do a lot of the social networks around who is who.

This is an utter tragedy.

dav3

Enzokk wrote: »

For those that comment that people should wait for the inquiries and investigations before demanding justice, remember it took 27 years for the Hillsborough disaster to return a verdict of unlawful killing. The newspapers started blaming the victims after 3 days after the tragedy. People remember this and see this as another chance for those in charge to not take responsibility and shift the blame onto the poor.

Already you have a PM that is just not accepting any responsibility and just repeating statements. She also seems to think the support they are giving is somehow a positive when it should be a given and not something to draw attention to. When people abuse the Queen you know there is anger and a little sympathy from all sides would have helped simmer the anger instead of allowing it to boil.

Let's not forget closer to home as well. It's been 36 years since the Stardust disaster and still no one has been held accountable or apologised for what happened.
The original verdict of arson, later to be overturned, prevented the families from pursuing damages.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/families-unable-to-sue-but-stardust-owners-took-3m-claim-1.2950808

Because of the finding of probable arson, relatives of the dead and injured were unable to sue the club owners and operators for alleged negligence. However, such legal obstacles did not apply to the Butterlys.

Of course it got far worse.

In June 1983, two Butterly companies brought a claim seeking £3 million from Dublin Corporation. The Circuit Court judge dealing with the claim found in their favour and, eschewing any probability as to the cause of the blaze, declared he was satisfied the fire was indeed malicious.

and

A compensation scheme for the families of the dead and injured was set up in 1985, and eventually awarded a total of £10.4 million (€13.2m). The largest awards were between £100,000 (€126,000) and £200,000 (€253,000). Most were under £20,000 (€25,300).
Christine Keegan, who lost two daughters in the fire, Mary and Martina, received £7,500 for each of them.

This is a disaster that is well known but is constantly buried due to certain people being too close to a certain political party at the time.

Even with overwhelming evidence such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardust_fire

The fire was started in a first floor store room inside the building that was open to the roofspace. The fire outbreak derived from an electrical fault in the room beside the roof space. This non Planning compliant first floor storage room contained dangerously flammable materials including 45x5 gallon drums of cooking oil…

The attendees at a trade union function taking place in the same building made their escape but the escape of some of the Stardust patrons was hampered by a number of obstructions. Some of the main fire exits were padlocked around the push bars and consequently were impossible to open.

People have still not been held accountable.

To put this in perspective, the equivalent of this would be in the year 2053 the survivors and families of the dead, or those that are still alive, of the Grenfell Tower disaster, would still not have justice, nobody would be held accountable, nobody would have apologised. Any findings would attempt to blame the dead and thus preventing any legal action. Some people would be thrown a paltry £7,500 for their dead child, while the owner of the tower block sues the city council making money from the disaster while rubbing the families and survivors' nose in it.

I have absolutely no problem with militant action from people around the Grenfell Tower area, it's a shame we didn't do it ourselves. You only have to look at what happened here to see what could happen.

Widdershins

Taking militant action while people are striving to officially identify dead bodies is ridiculous and counterproductive. All in case something like Stardust could happen. Lunacy. You can't act preemptively, thus hindering the very thing you want, a proper investigation, and call that justice.

LordSutch

Death toll thus far ....

Six confirmed dead, Twelve people now confirmed dead, Seventeen now dead, death toll now rises to sixty ... Seventy confirmed dead ....

Could easily rise to 100

devnull

Astonishing interview on LBC from Rachel Johnson this morning, sister of Boris.

She claimed that Theresa May is just another victim of the fire and is getting unfair criticism for not trying to score a cheap publicity stunt and letting the emergency services do their job.

Then with the next breath she turns around and says it's not the governments fault, the fire department signed off on the regulations and building spec and the refurbishment.

She then went on to say the council have been doing good work and working hard and she knows these people and essentially appeared to be saying that she feels these are also doing a good job.

The Tories are so far out of touch it's despicable, saying Theresa May is a victim is the most offensive thing I have heard, trying to equate all those who have died or lost loved ones to a Prime Minister who hides away is an insult to so many,.

orangerhyme

Lucy8080 wrote: »

yup, I think we all will have to wait. I don't think there is much doubt now about the danger of this type of cladding ( and maybe a perfect storm of other factors).

But, it seems to me that a sprinkler system would have swung the odds of survival (even with a perfect storm of unforeseen events).

This guy is a resident and pretty much sums up the perfect storm conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWH2w3bJRoQ

Worth a watch. hes a very good speaker. Ive seen him in a few other videos but this is the longest one.

orangerhyme

He comes across as a very smart guy. covers everything from the poor access road to gas pipes in the emergency stairwell to the blog of complaints.

Water John

I think Ashok Varadkar, Leo's father, said it well, that we must always look after the poorest of the poor.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/at-38-taoiseach-varadkar-is-not-too-old-to-listen-to-his-father-lets-hope-he-does-3448466-Jun2017/

Whilst the present focus should be on recovering, identifying and burying the dead, this should mark a turning point for all democratic countries. Harsh economic policy, will not be supported as it hurts those with little.

The_Kew_Tour

Any person who think a Fine Gael man is going to look after the poor is wishful thinking

Samaris

devnull wrote: »

The Tories are so far out of touch it's despicable, saying Theresa May is a victim is the most offensive thing I have heard, trying to equate all those who have died or lost loved ones to a Prime Minister who hides away is an insult to so many,.

I've been irked at that phrasing too. In a way, I get where they're coming from, IF one wants to take the view that May is being lambasted (unfairly?) for what happened, and/or that she's more of a convenient thing to blame. Same thing happened after Hurricane Katrina, when George W. flew over the ruined areas rather than go and meet the people. I saw a comparison of "Grenfell Tower is May's Katrina", and descriptions of both here and there as being victims of the (relevant) disaster. My immediate thought is that the loss of a career, as devastating as it is for the person, is not the bloody same, and I'd only agree that they were victims of the disaster if either of them were trapped in there, seeing the water pouring into their houses or the flames licking around the doors. Being several hundred/thousand miles away from a local disaster rather precludes one's victimhood status!

To describe politicians as being "victims" of a disaster when people -died- horribly after being trapped waiting for the flames/flood to reach them is just insult to injury. (Or insult to terror and painful, horrifying death, to be more exact.)

Water John

Orange, thanks for sharing that video, very moving. He has amazingly controlled anger. Hope he is part of the leadership for Regs change.

orangerhyme

Water John wrote: »

Orange, thanks for sharing that video, very moving. He has amazingly controlled anger. Hope he is part of the leadership for Regs change.

He comes across very well doesnt he?

He seems to be emerging as a leader.
He appeared in another video on Friday where he was supposed to meet with TMO for Kensington to discuss needs for residents and the meeting was cancelled.
Ill try to find it.

orangerhyme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKNF-e4WOn0

he appears at 2:00 on this video too.