London Fire and Aftermath RIP

retro:electro

Calina wrote: »

It is possible that some people in that block were estranged from family and friends. I would never assume that it is as simple as Who would hide from loved ones. There are many personal tragedies and there were a few one bed apartments in that block. There are people who may only have had contact with their neighbours who are also missing.

Iirc correctly there are 15 in a serious condition. This suggests that the max no missing because they are unconscious is 15 and is probably less.

Tower block is like a community. If a lot of it disappears, so too do a lot of the social networks around who is who.

This is an utter tragedy.

It's also very possible that some of the flats were "sub-letted" during the day/night. There is a culture of that in England at the moment. Go to work during the day/night and rent out your flat when you're not there. It's going to be very difficult to establish the actual figures and determine who exactly was in the block of flats when it went on fire.

Murrisk

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Well say for example, the records show a family of five living in one of the two-bed apartments. In reality, the family have long moved on and the tenants of that particular apartment have changed a couple of times since, and in fact the apartment is now occupied by a single man who wasn't even there the night of the fire. The paperwork was never updated, though.

The family of five, who are long gone, don't even know they're on the missing list, so don't think to tell anyone they're fine. I mean, of course their families know, but neither they nor their families are aware there's any concern over them.

So why inflate the "death" figures unnecessarily? I don't get why some people think the authorities are trying to hide something - everyone f*cking knows that the death toll is going to be regularly revised upwards for quite a while, who knows when we'll have a final figure, does it even matter? The fact is that many people died, a full investigation is warranted (even IF the death toll stood as it is today), and a full investigation will no doubt be carried out, but people cannot and should not expect answers while the fire is still probably smouldering in parts of the building!

Give the relevant people time to do their job. No point demanding justice if it's a rush job, based on mobs wanting to see heads roll for the sake of it.

Anything rent-a-gob media hussy Lily Allen gets behind can be safely ignored.

Wheeliebin30

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Any person who think a Fine Gael man is going to look after the poor is wishful thinking

Congratulations.

You didn't miss the opportunity to have a go at fg in a thread about people dying in a fire in England.

Jesus Chris pathetic.

anewme

Excellent speaker.

I remEmber Stardust like it was yesterday and it's almost 40 years ago.

Now you can connect with people across the world in an instant, cars drive themselves, you can go into an app an order anything and it will arrive from anywhere in the world.

For all the advances, negligence, greed and cost cutting still costs people their lives.

How can this happen in 2017? These type of accidents don't happen, they are caused.

In Stardust, the exit doors were chained shut, here we see lack of a sprinkler system, cheapest building materials (shocking how quick that lit up) when 2stg more per square m in the cladding would have given people a way out. Gas pipes beside a fire exit?

Sometimes, you have to wonder how far we really have come?

Samaris

orangerhyme wrote: »

This guy is a resident and pretty much sums up the perfect storm conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWH2w3bJRoQ

Worth a watch. hes a very good speaker. Ive seen him in a few other videos but this is the longest one.

Yeah, thanks for linking that, he's an articulate (and deservedly angry) man who makes a raft of good points.

If it's the case that people were trapped in there because the stairwell was erupting with the gas pipes going on fire, that is beyond horrifying. That should never have been allowed because of precisely this sort of scenario.

The whole thing about it being a perfect storm of factors is..true, but in a way, it rather dismisses the culpability of the people who made every decision that contributed to that "perfect storm". For every aspect, there was someone who could have thought "but if there's a fire this could make it worse, so let's not do this".

From all the information coming out, it really does look like those people never had a chance. And their chances were taken away because it was cheaper, because it was easier, because they could be ignored when they protested about it. And if it's so, that is appalling.

devnull

Theresa May has invited residents of the Grenfell Tower area to Downing Street today.

laugh

devnull wrote: »

Theresa May has invited residents of the Grenfell Tower area to Downing Street today.

She might regret that ( I know you can't really get within an asses roar of Downing Street).

Davidth88

I am from west London. I don't really know that area although my wife used to work at Hammersmith hospital which isn't far away.

I watched the news last night and have paying an avid interest . To me London strikes me as a tinder box right now ... especially with the hot weather I can see full blown riots happening if they are not careful.

Ms May has been very badly advised the way she has reacted she is coming across as very unfeeling.

Hope I am wrong.

The_Kew_Tour

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Congratulations.

You didn't miss the opportunity to have a go at fg in a thread about people dying in a fire in England.

Jesus Chris pathetic.

It is related, when same could happen here. I was not the person who brought him up Leo.

orangerhyme

Samaris wrote: »

Yeah, thanks for linking that, he's an articulate (and deservedly angry) man who makes a raft of good points.

If it's the case that people were trapped in there because the stairwell was erupting with the gas pipes going on fire, that is beyond horrifying. That should never have been allowed because of precisely this sort of scenario.

The whole thing about it being a perfect storm of factors is..true, but in a way, it rather dismisses the culpability of the people who made every decision that contributed to that "perfect storm". For every aspect, there was someone who could have thought "but if there's a fire this could make it worse, so let's not do this".

From all the information coming out, it really does look like those people never had a chance. And their chances were taken away because it was cheaper, because it was easier, because they could be ignored when they protested about it. And if it's so, that is appalling.

I dont mean to dismiss the culpability of authorities.

By "perfect storm" I dont just mean the physical characteristics of the building and its safety features, I also mean politically and socially.
For example lots of the tenants were poor/working class/immigrants. Another lady spoke about how the residents sought legal aid to represent them but wasnt available due to cuts.
They were too poor to pay for private legal representation. When youre on a working class salary in London, you live from pay check to pay check.

The son in the Alves family that managed to escape said that his father was in the tenants association and said he helped his father with complaint emails because his english was poor.
The perfect storm is multifaceted.

Samaris

Ah, I see. And yeah, you're right on that. Which may be partly why the fury and grief is being focussed into anger and marches. If you feel your words can't be heard or won't be listened to, maybe action is the only route many people see for -forcing- their words to be listened to.

anewme

Listed for rent at 2k a month and a very nice flat it is too.

http://www.standard.co.uk/Front/london-fire-inside-the-2k-grenfell-tower-flats-before-the-blaze-a3565416.html#gallery

I don't think everyone was poor, the community seemed very mixed and positive. I would reckon it was a pretty decent area to live in.

Anyone speaking is intelligent and articulate and hardworking no matter what nationality. I would think I'd you were a council tenant, you would have been happy to be given a place there.

Despite many warnings the people running it failed to adddress concerns because they probably knew ppl would not leave. You'd take your chances there rather than live somewhere else with massive anti social behaviour.

orangerhyme

orangerhyme

This gives a pretty good idea of the victims. To me they look like working class/poor/immigrants. Do they really look wealthy and articulate?

The poor lady in the Facebook live video on the 23rd floor whom Im assume perished had very poor english. Did she really have the means and language skills to express her concerns of safety, the language and knowledge to lodge her complaints?

The guy who wrote a blog making complaints was sent a cease and desist letter.

devnull

anewme wrote: »

Listed for rent at 2k a month and a very nice flat it is too.

http://www.standard.co.uk/Front/london-fire-inside-the-2k-grenfell-tower-flats-before-the-blaze-a3565416.html#gallery

I don't think everyone was poor, the community seemed very mixed and positive. I would reckon it was a pretty decent area to live in.

Anyone speaking is intelligent and articulate and hardworking no matter what nationality. I would think I'd you were a council tenant, you would have been happy to be given a place there.

Despite many warnings the people running it failed to adddress concerns because they probably knew ppl would not leave. You'd take your chances there rather than live somewhere else with massive anti social behaviour.

The borough is one of the richest in London, but those in the building were not.

Council Estate among a high class area.

Water John

It is in an affluent general area but was home to fairly poor people.

The_Kew_Tour

Does not matter about class, religion or where they are from, it should never have happened and for sake of what? 10,000 quid? or even less, they might have saved 100 lives and thousands of people grieving.

mikeybrennan

anewme wrote: »

Excellent speaker.

I remEmber Stardust like it was yesterday and it's almost 40 years ago.

Now you can connect with people across the world in an instant, cars drive themselves, you can go into an app an order anything and it will arrive from anywhere in the world.

For all the advances, negligence, greed and cost cutting still costs people their lives.

How can this happen in 2017? These type of accidents don't happen, they are caused.

In Stardust, the exit doors were chained shut, here we see lack of a sprinkler system, cheapest building materials (shocking how quick that lit up) when 2stg more per square m in the cladding would have given people a way out. Gas pipes beside a fire exit?

Sometimes, you have to wonder how far we really have come?

The UK government resisted pressure to install sprinklers in tower blocks

They also stalled a review of fire safety in tower blocks

The information about the PE panels has been available too

Money is the bottom-line

anewme

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Does not matter about class, religion or where they are from, it should never have happened and for sake of what? 10,000 quid? or even less, they might have saved 100 lives and thousands of people grieving.

The same cost cutting would occur in private or public schemes. Down to greed.

I doubt our own standards are much better. particularly those built in Celtic tiger times. Remember, someone signed off on Priory Hall initially.

People are never listened to until a tragedy occurs.

orangerhyme

Murrisk wrote: »

Anything rent-a-gob media hussy Lily Allen gets behind can be safely ignored.

Shes trying to use her celebrity status to give a voice to the voiceless. Perhaps too little, too late but its commendable. She could just stay at home and sit on her arse doing nothing.
She seems to have genuine compassion and empathy. She grew up on a council estate in London so shes not so far removed as one might imagine.

Theres plenty of people who are paid by taxpayers to represent these people who are completely absent and saying and doing nothing, Boris Johnson for example.

retro:electro

I listened to all of the Lily interview and there was one thing she said which was true. There was never any effort made by the council to bind the rich and poor communities together in the area. Quite the opposite actually. Community centres and local pubs were closed and replaced with posher, more expensive and aesthetically pleasing settings. This is all well and good for the rich living in the area, but the poor can't afford this and so it just further alienates them.

On the topic of how many are dead and the media downplaying the figures, she needs to shut her mouth. So disrespectful and shows that she actually has no clue of how slow and painstaking this process is going to be. I think people are so used to watching reality tv and having everything on demand that they expect immediate answers and immediate responses- when in actual reality in order for these things to be done properly, they take time.

Yourself isit

anewme wrote: »

The same cost cutting would occur in private or public schemes. Down to greed.

I doubt our own standards are much better. particularly those built in Celtic tiger times. Remember, someone signed off on Priory Hall initially.

People are never listened to until a tragedy occurs.

We had a self certification methodology.

I'd like to know who was ultimately responsible for the block being signed off on. It's not national government that controls local building standards.

orangerhyme

She's also articulated how the relief response has been community led with no help from the council.
I think also shes expressing an opinion from people on ground with regards to a lack of communciation and leadership. People wandering around with missing posters with nobody answering them, noone coordinating efforts

Yourself isit

orangerhyme wrote: »

Shes trying to use her celebrity status to give a voice to the voiceless. Perhaps too little, too late but its commendable. She could just stay at home and sit on her arse doing nothing.
She seems to have genuine compassion and empathy. She grew up on a council estate in London so shes not so far removed as one might imagine.

Theres plenty of people who are paid by taxpayers to represent these people who are completely absent and saying and doing nothing, Boris Johnson for example.

?

She was born to wealth. Although she did live in the area.

Chester Copperpot

orangerhyme wrote: »

Shes trying to use her celebrity status to give a voice to the voiceless. Perhaps too little, too late but its commendable. She could just stay at home and sit on her arse doing nothing.
She seems to have genuine compassion and empathy. She grew up on a council estate in London so shes not so far removed as one might imagine.

Theres plenty of people who are paid by taxpayers to represent these people who are completely absent and saying and doing nothing, Boris Johnson for example.

Her family grew up on an estate outside clones but not quite a council estate. Is the country estate where the flat lakes festival was on. Regardless I don't think her background should in anyway prevent her from commenting on the situation

dd972

The U.K is a unique state in the sense that it hates it's own people, there are parallels to the Hillsborough disaster as well in how a situation was ignored for years had to become tragic because essentially these are people who 'don't matter', didn't attend 'the right schools', speak in affected RP tones and don't own £1.5m houses in Oxfordshire.

Post war Germany, Switzerland or the Scandinavian countries for instance don't have such withering disdain for people whom they regard as a 'great unwashed'.

Widdershins

Spotted elsewhere (not my research I should point out and have left in the typos):


1 - the block of flats was run not by any council but by KCTMO. This body is made up of 8 TENANTS, 4 councilors and 3 independent members.

2 - Lbour hold the seat that the block is situated in.

3 - Labour run the London Council who manage the under funded London Fire Service

4 - incidentally Emma Coad the sitting Labour MP for that ward also sat on the KCTMO.

5 - the advise to stay put which Sadiq Khan has been so vocal about was given by the London Fire Service.

6 - the decision to change contractors during the refurb was made by KCTMO.

7 - the decision not to spend a paltry ?138k on fitting sprinklers again KCTMO.

8 - the decision to create ALMO organisation such as the KCTMO was made under the Right To Manage legislation passed in 2002
as part of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act.

9 - this was put in place to give leasehold tenants a greater say and the ability to self manage, which has clearly proven to be a disaster.

10 - and which Govt was in a charge when this law was passed? Yup you guessed it Labour.

11 - Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding.

12 -Emma Coad elected Labour MP was on the board of the Tenant Management group who are being accused of not listening to tenants.

orangerhyme

Shes quoted as saying that she spent first 9 years of her life in a council flat in Hammersmith. Her mom was a single mom at 17. Parents divorced at 4. Dad Keith was absent. She did attend private schools though.

I wouldnt say she was dirt poor but certainly was disadvantaged.

orangerhyme

Widdershins wrote: »

Spotted elsewhere (not my research I should point out and have left in the typos):


1 - the block of flats was run not by any council but by KCTMO. This body is made up of 8 TENANTS, 4 councilors and 3 independent members.

2 - Lbour hold the seat that the block is situated in.

3 - Labour run the London Council who manage the under funded London Fire Service

4 - incidentally Emma Coad the sitting Labour MP for that ward also sat on the KCTMO.

5 - the advise to stay put which Sadiq Khan has been so vocal about was given by the London Fire Service.

6 - the decision to change contractors during the refurb was made by KCTMO.

7 - the decision not to spend a paltry ?138k on fitting sprinklers again KCTMO.

8 - the decision to create ALMO organisation such as the KCTMO was made under the Right To Manage legislation passed in 2002
as part of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act.

9 - this was put in place to give leasehold tenants a greater say and the ability to self manage, which has clearly proven to be a disaster.

10 - and which Govt was in a charge when this law was passed? Yup you guessed it Labour.

11 - Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding.

12 -Emma Coad elected Labour MP was on the board of the Tenant Management group who are being accused of not listening to tenants.

Good research. Its such a complex situation and raising so many issues.

People have been talking about cuts to Fire Service, but did it actually matter in this situation? there was hundreds of fire men at the scene.

dav3

Widdershins wrote: »

Spotted elsewhere (not my research I should point out and have left in the typos):

Can you at least link to this "research" so people can judge for themselves?