London Fire and Aftermath RIP

Murrisk

orangerhyme wrote: »

Most people dont grow up in council flats to a single mom with 3 kids.

Very few people can afford to attend Bedales School like she did!

orangerhyme

bodhrandude wrote: »

Orangerhyme was that the correct footage I posted earlier of the French high rise fire from 2012?

Yeah that was the one I was referring to. The flames rose up the building in just minutes. Its frightening. That was 5 years ago!

buried

Murrisk wrote: »

Lily Allen grew up in a comfortably well-off middle class family, contrary to her image. She attended several very expensive schools. She only lived briefly in a council estate. She's a consummate media whore. Her griping about the police and government lying about the death toll is ill-thought-out and inflammatory.

That's extremely harsh Murrisk. The woman lives in the area where this has happened, she has every right to be just be as upset as everyone else in that community. It's not some devious plan on her part to increase her profile. She may be a celebrity, but that doesn't mean she is immune to empathy or the horror going on right in front of her eyes.

Murrisk

anna080 wrote: »

Agreed. She's trying to ignite a class war. Who that is actually going to help is beyond me.

And there is good reasoning behind not releasing an estimated death toll as outlined by Lady Is A Tramp earlier in the thread. Making a song and dance about that is taking from other issues relating to the fire.

orangerhyme

Should maybe change the subject away from Lily Allen.

One thing I find very curious is the seeming lack of leadership on the ground.

Im assuming protocols for terrorist attacks are well rehearsed in London. Such as relief centers for food, accomadation, information centers for families etc...all of this seems to be lacking and seems to have been provided ad hoc by community volunteers.

I know this wasnt a terrorist attack but its similar in terms of scale, casualties and impact.
Could they not have applied the same protocols in this scenario?

Murrisk

buried wrote: »

That's extremely harsh Murrisk. The woman lives in the area where this has happened, she has every right to be just be as upset as everyone else in that community. It's not some devious plan on her part to increase her profile. She may be a celebrity, but that doesn't mean she is immune to empathy or the horror going on right in front of her eyes.

I'm sure she is empathetic but that doesn't mean she had to stick her oar in with unsubstantiated claims ie. her comments about the gov suppressing the true death toll. As said, it's inflammatory. How does it help? It's taking focus away from figuring out who is to blame for this tragedy and how it was allowed to happen. Being from the borough doesn't make her informed. Evidently.

retro:electro

Memnoch wrote: »

In case you didn't notice, the class war has been going on for a few decades now.

While millions in the UK have seen their income and living standards fall, the very rich have gotten even richer after the financial crisis.

Now policing is cut, fire fighting is cut, social care is cut. Money is spent bombing middle eastern countries into failed states resulting in terrorist havens and flooding refugees into the EU.

Ordinary people pay the price for all this with their lives.

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-02-20-30000-excess-deaths-2015-linked-cuts-health-and-social-care

Disabled people commit suicide after being declared fit for work by an inhumane assessment system.

Class division is not the same as class war or struggle. Class war involves anarchy, social disruption and chaos.
All of which Lily's comments encourage.

buried

Murrisk wrote: »

I'm sure she is empathetic but that doesn't mean she had to stick her oar in with unsubstantiated claims ie. her comments about the gov suppressing the true death toll. As said, it's inflammatory. How does it help? It's taking focus away from figuring out who is to blame for this tragedy and how it was allowed to happen. Being from the borough doesn't make her informed. Evidently.

Maybe Channel 4 shouldn't have broadcast what she said then? It's not the most inflammatory statement made in the last few days. You had Rachel Johnson on the radio this morning claiming that Theresa May is a 'victim' of this horror too. Is that not even more inflammatory? The media are going to use every single trick they can to inflame this horror even further, inflame and also deflect. That is the real problem here. Not Lilly Allen

Memnoch

anna080 wrote: »

Class division is not the same as class war or struggle. Class war involves anarchy, social disruption and chaos.
All of which Lily's comments encourage.

When thousands of innocent people are being killed and many many more are suffering, I would class it as a war. Albeit one waged silently and entirely by one side.

Murrisk

buried wrote: »

Maybe Channel 4 shouldn't have broadcast what she said then? It's not the most inflammatory statement made in the last few days. You had Rachel Johnson on the radio this morning claiming that Theresa May is a 'victim' of this horror too. Is that not even more inflammatory? The media are going to use every single trick they can to inflame this horror even further, inflame and also deflect. That is the real problem here. Not Lilly Allen

More than one person can be inflammatory.

Lady is a tramp

The cuteness of the wee booties on the dogs.

Alun

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

The cuteness of the wee booties on the dogs.

Very practical actually ...

From http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/fire-investigation-dogs.asp

When investigating fire scenes, the dog wear boots to protect their paws from shards of glass and other sharp objects; although it might look dangerous, the dogs are never sent into hot scenes and there has been no report of any injury to any fire dog, throughout the country, while working.

Murrisk

Alun wrote: »

Very practical actually ...

From http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/fire-investigation-dogs.asp

Well yeah, obviously they're not just wearing them to be cute.

AllForIt

Murrisk wrote: »

Well yeah, obviously they're not just wearing them to be cute.

Didn't expect to laugh out loud on this thread !

Murrisk

Murrisk wrote: »

I'm sure she is empathetic but that doesn't mean she had to stick her oar in with unsubstantiated claims ie. her comments about the gov suppressing the true death toll. As said, it's inflammatory. How does it help? It's taking focus away from figuring out who is to blame for this tragedy and how it was allowed to happen. Being from the borough doesn't make her informed. Evidently.

Finding out who is to blame will not happen. It rarely if ever does. The focus will be on what processes and decisions led to this horrific event and putting in place measures to prevent it from happening again. It will be years before the real truth comes out and this event will just be a distant memory for most people who were not directly affected. Grenfell Tower won't even exist by then.

refusetolose

Murrisk

AllForIt wrote: »

Didn't expect to laugh out loud on this thread !

Bit of a wagon-y response from me but oh well. :P

RDM_83 again

dd972 wrote: »

The U.K is a unique state in the sense that it hates it's own people, there are parallels to the Hillsborough disaster as well in how a situation was ignored for years had to become tragic because essentially these are people who 'don't matter', didn't attend 'the right schools', speak in affected RP tones and don't own £1.5m houses in Oxfordshire.

Post war Germany, Switzerland or the Scandinavian countries for instance don't have such withering disdain for people whom they regard as a 'great unwashed'.

Thats not true.
Switzerland- mainly pre-war but continued to 60's/70's
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29765623

Germany - I am not sure about but there economy is a powerhouse because of the way they keep wages down, there is definitely also a disdain/pity for people from former East Germany thats not quite the same as English classism but has the same result on looking down on them

Scandinavian Countries - Some of them continued policies of eugenics/sterilization up to the 70's, thats the definition of viewing people as lesser

I'd be the first to say that England has a messed up class system but I think its a bit more complex than many think, the Lilly Allen types have a mass of contempt for the white English working class that they don't have for the new multi-ethnic urban lower classes, see the disdain Essex and similar areas people are held in (they are mainly originally working class Londoners that moved out in a "white flight" process) look at Rotherham and the way the Brexit vote was viewed.

Murrisk

Deleted User wrote: »

Finding out who is to blame will not happen. It rarely if ever does.

I don't know about that. Having read about various building fires and/or collapse in various countries, sometimes people and companies are indeed brought to court and convicted over the disaster. Check out the Station nightclub fire in Rhode Island and the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse in Kansas City. OK, not the UK, but there was very real consequences for the people who caused these incidents. And that's just two examples.

mikeybrennan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Finding out who is to blame will not happen. It rarely if ever does. The focus will be on what processes and decisions led to this horrific event and putting in place measures to prevent it from happening again. It will be years before the real truth comes out and this event will just be a distant memory for most people who were not directly affected. Grenfell Tower won't even exist by then.

It's mainly down to government inaction in recent years.Most of the issues have been known since the Lakanal House fire and report.

This statement for example from a UK hosting minister.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/london-fire-grenfell-theresa-may-tories-accusations-fire-safety-warnings-ignored-tower-block-a7790501.html%3famp

"The coroner's report into Lakanal House had recommended regulations be updated, and called for developers refurbishing high-rise blocks to be encouraged to install sprinkler systems.

But five years later, Mr Lewis told MPs: “We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation.”

Expecting the fire industry to successfully market sprinklers to developers...

Junkyard Tom

anna080 wrote: »

Class war involves anarchy, social disruption and chaos.

When tax-dodging, non-domicile, billionaire, media moguls encourage the public to vote against their own interests we can safely assume there is, at the very least, a propaganda war.

England is a very wealthy country with plenty of money sloshing around (granted much of it is probably offshore) and yet it has disabled people killing themselves for fear of destitution, working poor using food banks, nearly a million people on zero hour contracts and so on.

blueser

orangerhyme wrote: »

I think I'm a little bias cos I find her very attractive.

Seriously? Wow. She's nearly as ugly as me. Which is no mean feat.

Ulysses Gaze

buried wrote: »

That's extremely harsh Murrisk. The woman lives in the area where this has happened, she has every right to be just be as upset as everyone else in that community. It's not some devious plan on her part to increase her profile. She may be a celebrity, but that doesn't mean she is immune to empathy or the horror going on right in front of her eyes.

She has an album coming out sometime this month....

buried

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

She has an album coming out sometime this month....

So has Theresa May with a backing band called the D.U.P.

Ulysses Gaze

Memnoch wrote: »

In case you didn't notice, the class war has been going on for a few decades now.

While millions in the UK have seen their income and living standards fall, the very rich have gotten even richer after the financial crisis.

Now policing is cut, fire fighting is cut, social care is cut. Money is spent bombing middle eastern countries into failed states resulting in terrorist havens and flooding refugees into the EU.

Ordinary people pay the price for all this with their lives.

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-02-20-30000-excess-deaths-2015-linked-cuts-health-and-social-care

Disabled people commit suicide after being declared fit for work by an inhumane assessment system.

The only way to change this is through violent revolution.That will never happen now in the UK.

Back in the 1300's and 1500's there were Peasant Revolts in the UK, but they were all suppressed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The only way to change this is through violent revolution.That will never happen now in the UK.

Back in the 1300's and 1500's there were Peasant Revolts in the UK, but they were all suppressed.

I'd argue massive civil disobediance would work better. But it would have to be massive.

The rick and powerful don't fear violence - they know how to deal with violence - what they don't know how to deal with is just huge numbers of people simply not cooperating.

The_Kew_Tour

Who is going to suffer over the violence though?

buried

It suits the disgusting f**kers up in the establishment towers for violence to break out. That way they can deflect the responsibility of their $hit governance and use the likes of slime news and the daily mail to showcase to the idiots willing to buy their absolute bull$hit, so they can all collectively look down from their imagined height and go "tut tut, well there you have it". Slimebags. Absolute disgusting trash. People are now wider to their pathetic game.

BorneTobyWilde

That story of husband who lost wife is a bit strange. Why did he run off and leave her, not something I would do.

Yourself isit

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The only way to change this is through violent revolution.That will never happen now in the UK.

Back in the 1300's and 1500's there were Peasant Revolts in the UK, but they were all suppressed.

Actually the best solution would be non violent. Keynesian economics, strong unions.