London Fire and Aftermath RIP

DrPhilG

Continued...

[


So 19 hours after starting our night shift the members of Red Watch I swapped out my dirty fire gear so I'm ready for 8pm, I might as well do it while I'm still covered in sweat and dirt.


I shower, but the smell of smoke won't go away. I wash three times and give up.


I'm beyond tired but I cant sleep.. there's to much going on in my head.


I think I need a drink!


I go out to the local pub with colleagues. I order a shandy, I'm back on duty soon.

As we sat with our drinks we don't really talk. Sitting in almost complete silence, each lost in thought trying to begin to process everything that's happened. Yet we are aware of the people all around us laughing and joking with friends, enjoying their drinks in the sun. Oblivious to what we've seen, unaware of what we've been doing all night.


I've no appetite but I know I need to eat. We go to and get some food but it's hard to concentrate.


We go back to the fire station, there's no time to get home. I find a bed in the dorm room and eventually manage 45 min sleep before I wake up. Wash my face, get dressed and I'm ready to report for roll call, ready to do it all again.

---

Now... this is only a small part of the things we saw and did on that night. Other stories will obviously come out but some won't. Some will be kept by firefighters and the other emergency services hidden away deep down in their thoughts, never to pass in to words, never to be told to a living soul but always there, those emotional scars will forever be there.

---

After all that I want to ask you this.


When you see emergency services workers plastered on papers or on the news being slated by the mainstream media, or sometimes missing from a story or a incident you know we would of been at, being called lazy because we are seen trying to eat or have a coffee whilst on duty and your initial thought is any level of outrage

"what! they can't do that! I'm paying their salary!"

"They should be doing something else!"


Stop! and Think!


Take a minute to consider what that person might of already seen or done that day or what they might see or do in 5 minutes from now.


When you see big incidents like this on the news, stop... take a moment think about the thousands of incidents that are attended every year by blue light services that don't make the mainstream media either because they don't sell papers or give the right message for the current political agenda of a particular party.

Maybe it is because they are only small or maybe because they are not considered news worthy enough.

Maybe they do make the news its because something went wrong and then it is reported so someone can be blamed. Reported on so some MP can say pubic services are in meltdown so they can sell off part or all of that public service to one of their multimillionaire friends or a private company they are on the board of, all so they can introduce privatisation and make cuts to try and make a profit out of saving lives.


Regardless of what they do, regardless of what the job is, regardless how big or small it is. We as first responders are still going to be there, we are sill going to go out day after day helping the people who's lives are at the lowest point imaginable. We are going to be there for you!


So If you see us out and about please show us you're support, show us you're thinking of us and appreciate us by giving us a smile or a wave and if at some point we ask for your support or go out on strike know it's not because want to it's because when we say things like cuts are dangerous we are doing it for the right reasons, because ultimately it's you we are looking out for, it's the people we serve that unfortunately suffer from government cuts. 


Finally if you can take a few moments out of your day to really consider the sacrifices the men and women of the emergency services are willing to make to protect you, your loved ones and the local communities we serve you will see that it's not about money or fame we do it because we genuinely care about serving you.


I'm off to see my family and friends now. I might talk to them about it if I can, but then again I might not. I'm not sure they need to know what's in my head just yet.

Maybe once I've made sense of it i will.


Please take care out there people, but if you can't don't worry to much..

We will be there looking out for you, all day everyday!

123shooter

Samaris wrote: »

That's the point. You saw the list of things in that post that have come up as being contributing factors so far (and some that may or may not be but not confirmed). One fire escape, the difficulty getting emergency crews to the base of the building and the poorly fire-resistant cladding appear to be confirmed. The fire alarms have been regularly cited by residents that escaped. The gas lines in the stairwell are not yet confirmed.

If they were perfectly in compliance, then the contracting company or the management company cannot be sued despite the residents protesting about the lack of fire safety in the building.

So why were there no regulations in place? Some of them are basic common sense and others are upheld in other countries - multiple fire escapes, sprinklers, working fire alarms... If it turns out to be to do with the "bonfire of regulations", yes, sh*t will absolutely hit the fan and rightfully so.

As far as I know if everything went accordingly.

There would have been regs as regards the type insulation and this and the work would have been inspected when completed before payment.

Who set out the regs? The regs could be years old well before present government.

As regards what goes on in other countries has nothing to do with UK and is irrelevant.........For instance if there was a reg in Ireland which states that every house must have a sprinkler system in every room it would be a great idea and cut house fire deaths to almost zero..........but there isnt so who are you going to blame for this ?

devnull

Maybe it's the EU's fault? (sigh)

From the daily fail

123shooter

devnull wrote: »

Maybe it's the EU's fault? (sigh)

From the daily fail

What if everything is correct and it is actually an EU regulation?

What if it was a Labour government regulation?

mikeybrennan

123shooter wrote: »

As far as I know if everything went accordingly.

There would have been regs as regards the type insulation and this and the work would have been inspected when completed before payment.

Who set out the regs? The regs could be years old well before present government.

As regards what goes on in other countries has nothing to do with UK and is irrelevant.........For instance if there was a reg in Ireland which states that every house must have a sprinkler system in every room it would be a great idea and cut house fire deaths to almost zero..........but there isnt so who are you going to blame for this ?

It's down to government inaction on fire safety in old tower blocks

123shooter

mikeybrennan wrote: »

It's down to government inaction on fire safety in old tower blocks

I can agree to a point as someone in every government must oversee different departments and their regs.

So are you also saying that other deaths through no sprinkler system being a reg are also the fact of a government?........where does it stop?

mikeybrennan

123shooter wrote: »

I can agree to a point as someone in every government must oversee different departments and their regs.

So are you also saying that other deaths through no sprinkler system being a reg are also the fact of a government?........where does it stop?

Just tower blocks

Housing ministers refused to enforce sprinklers on refurbishments after the Lakanal report

One of them has just been made PMs chief of staff

123shooter

mikeybrennan wrote: »

Just tower blocks

Housing ministers refused to enforce sprinklers on refurbishments after the Lakanal report

One of them has just been made PMs chief of staff

Do you know the reason for such a refusal?

mikeybrennan

123shooter wrote: »

Do you know the reason for such a refusal?

Said it wasn't their responsibility
https://www.google.ie/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/london-fire-grenfell-theresa-may-tories-accusations-fire-safety-warnings-ignored-tower-block-a7790501.html%3famp

Samaris

Since it has come up again, let us see what Google has to say about it;

Widdershins wrote: »

Spotted elsewhere (not my research I should point out and have left in the typos):


1 - the block of flats was run not by any council but by KCTMO. This body is made up of 8 TENANTS, 4 councilors and 3 independent members.

Worth noting that KCTMO isn't just responsible for this flat, but that it is one of the largest property management organisations in the UK. The eight tenan- sorry, TENANTS could actually be TENANTS or leaseholders of any relevant property managed by the company. The likelihood of any being from Grenfell specifically is relatively low. Not 100% sure what this point is trying to make.

Widdershins wrote: »

2 - Lbour hold the seat that the block is situated in.

Since what, under a week before the fire? Between 2008 until last week it was Conservative. It was Labour again before that. Renovations and the issue with the regulations appears to be from 1012 onwards. So that horse won't run far.

Widdershins wrote: »

3 - Labour run the London Council who manage the under funded London Fire Service

Well, hard to find sources for this - the fire regulations appear to be under the Department for Communities and Local Government. Labour attempted to block the takeover by the police and crime commissioners, but that was in 2016, well after the cuts...which appear to be the brainchild of one Boris Johnson (who famously told his Labour opponent over the same issue to "get stuffed"). So I'm not entirely sure where this horse is, but I strongly suspect it's not backing her point.

Widdershins wrote: »

4 - incidentally Emma Coad the sitting Labour MP for that ward also sat on the KCTMO.

True. She was one of the elected councillors to the board in 2013/14, so within the period that the problems were developing.

Widdershins wrote: »

5 - the advise to stay put which Sadiq Khan has been so vocal about was given by the London Fire Service.

Also true. And perfectly sound advice mostly, just not in the situation where the building was going to go up like that. It is good advice for when the building is properly constructed to withstand fire, and the fire service had no reason to believe it wasn't. That was a tragic element.

Widdershins wrote: »

6 - the decision to change contractors during the refurb was made by KCTMO.

True, but somewhat irrelevant.

Widdershins wrote: »

7 - the decision not to spend a paltry ?138k on fitting sprinklers again KCTMO.

Varying numbers for cost, but ultimately probably true. However, that they could get away with not installing them due to cost is a regulation fail if sprinklers are generally regarded as being a sensible precaution in tall buildings in the case of fire. It never was a regulation, just strongly recommended after two other major fires. But can't be having all these regulations around, it interferes with businesses!

Widdershins wrote: »

8 - the decision to create ALMO organisation such as the KCTMO was made under the Right To Manage legislation passed in 2002
as part of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act.

Irrelevant and I'm not sure why it's presented as a point unto itself as opposed to being attached to the latter part of the statement below. Stretching a point, to pretend a point is being made, but it isn't.

Widdershins wrote: »

9 - this was put in place to give leasehold tenants a greater say and the ability to self manage, which has clearly proven to be a disaster.

Opinion unrelated to the facts so far.

Widdershins wrote: »

10 - and which Govt was in a charge when this law was passed? Yup you guessed it Labour.

That's three points being made from one point. And it's a bit of a shaky point even as is.

Widdershins wrote: »

11 - Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding.

Convenient missing out of Johnson's cuts in 2014 that closed 10 stations, isn't it? I cannot find sources that Khan cut services further, although there was due to be a further 22m cut in 2016, which Khan said he was worried enough about to have a full review before any further cuts. In November 2016, the review stated that no further cuts should be made as the fire service was already struggling to meet targets. I cannot find any source to say that Khan went on to make the cuts after having acknowledged the review and agreed to keep to its reccommendations. However, cuts of around 10,000 fire service personnel have been made nationwide under Home Secretary May.

Widdershins wrote: »

12 -Emma Coad elected Labour MP was on the board of the Tenant Management group who are being accused of not listening to tenants.

This point has been made twice.

So, in summary, out of the twelve points, three are repeats or the same point presented as being multiple separate points, so there are nine points made. Nine and a half if you stretch a point for 10.

Out of the nine points;
1. True, if rather misleadingly stated.
2. Half-true, but misrepresented.
3. Unconfirmed from how it's phrased, but appears to be mostly untrue. (link welcome)
4 & 12. True
5. True, and really unfortunate in this circumstance.
6. True, but irrelevant.
7. True, but the question of regulations allowing for this sort of cost-cutting at the expense of safety is important. No-one's defending KCTMO.
8. Isn't even a point, but say 8, 9 &10 as it's all the same sentence; Dubious in the extreme. I'm not sure how the original law regarding self or semi-self management has an impact and it -certainly- wasn't an obvious outcome (as stripping away fire safety regs and cutting the fire service are). I'd have to read the law thoroughly to see what leeway was given to KCTMO to be useless, but it wouldn't make any difference if the regulations for fire safety were lax. Not to mention the encouragement to businesses to drop any regulatory standards above and beyond the essential in 2012, with rather dubious assessments of "essential". It's stretching a point, to say the least.
11. Appears to be an outright lie, but it may be provable yet. It's not an easy one to prove anyway. All evidence I can find with search terms both neutral and accusatory is that he commissioned a review that ultimately said "no more cuts" because he was worried about cuts. I cannot, however, find a straight sentence of either "the proposed 2016 cuts were not made" or "the cuts were made", though.
12. Same point as 4.

I don't even have a horse in this race. I was actually vaguely pro-May when she was installed. But that list is bollockology of half-truths and red herrings.

degsie

123shooter wrote: »

Really. Then go for those people not blame others. If correct hang em high.

Incite to violence much?

123shooter

To be honest if the regs and department is under local government then thats where you go for blame.

If a previous government/council/mayor did something and the new crowd say it needs looking at but drag their feet or do nowt then.........?

Samaris

sigh.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/18/grenfell-tower-fire-may-under-pressure-after-angry-exchanges-in-no-10-live-updates

Midden, meet windmill. The cladding was banned in the UK. fFs.

mikeybrennan

If the cladding is actually banned that shifts the blame away from the government

But they then have the responsibility of ensuring the safety of residents in the hundreds of other tower blocks fitted with the same flammable cladding.

orangerhyme

Widdershins wrote: »

Spotted elsewhere (not my research I should point out and have left in the typos):


1 - the block of flats was run not by any council but by KCTMO. This body is made up of 8 TENANTS, 4 councilors and 3 independent members.

2 - Lbour hold the seat that the block is situated in.

3 - Labour run the London Council who manage the under funded London Fire Service

4 - incidentally Emma Coad the sitting Labour MP for that ward also sat on the KCTMO.

5 - the advise to stay put which Sadiq Khan has been so vocal about was given by the London Fire Service.

6 - the decision to change contractors during the refurb was made by KCTMO.

7 - the decision not to spend a paltry ?138k on fitting sprinklers again KCTMO.

8 - the decision to create ALMO organisation such as the KCTMO was made under the Right To Manage legislation passed in 2002
as part of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act.

9 - this was put in place to give leasehold tenants a greater say and the ability to self manage, which has clearly proven to be a disaster.

10 - and which Govt was in a charge when this law was passed? Yup you guessed it Labour.

11 - Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding.

12 -Emma Coad elected Labour MP was on the board of the Tenant Management group who are being accused of not listening to tenants.

Its quite sad to witness the politicizing on this tragic event.
I dont mean you or anyone on this forum. But the type of person who puts together this collection of falsities and half-truths and posts it online. I also mean both the hard right and left.
I also mean it in the understanding of the distinction between politicizing and discussing this event in its political and social context.

devnull

Samaris wrote: »

sigh.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/18/grenfell-tower-fire-may-under-pressure-after-angry-exchanges-in-no-10-live-updates

Midden, meet windmill. The cladding was banned in the UK. fFs.

Do we know who banned it?

Was it the EU by any chance?

Water John

If it was banned, which Hammond says, then we into manslaughter territory, by whomsoever approved it, installed it and signed off on it.

degsie

Have other buildings with same cladding been identified?

mikeybrennan

Water John wrote: »

If it was banned, which Hammond says, then we into manslaughter territory, by whomsoever approved it, installed it and signed off on it.

I would like to see the detail on the 'banning'

mikeybrennan

degsie wrote: »

Have other buildings with same cladding been identified?

There's an investigation underway into safety of tower blocks

I read that hundreds had been fitted with same cladding

ToddyDoody

What is the source of a lot of things on after hours?....

"Some guy".

In that regard, some guy shared this link on facebook re: power surges in the Grenfell Tower.

Sounds like hell on earth.

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/grenfell-tower-from-bad-to-worse/

tara73

mikeybrennan wrote: »

I would like to see the detail on the 'banning'

yes, if it was legally banned, that must have been fixed somewhere in a written statement from who?

Unfortunately, I don't believe it was officially banned. There is probably a loophole for this stuff.

I would like to hear Rydon Contractors speak up about the situation. They were the main contractors so they must have made sure with their subcontractors, who delivered and did the fitting, what kind of cladding they used and if it was in compliance.
they say so on their statement on the website....http://www.rydon.co.uk/

Water John

Well, the manufacturers said, it should only be used under a certain height. So Regs or not, it did not comply for the upper section.

tara73

ToddyDoody wrote: »

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/05/29/grenfell-tower-from-bad-to-worse/

this is just unbelievable. what an arrogant, negligent attitude from this KCTMO. They officials of this company and also from K/C council should really be charged with manslaughter.

mikeybrennan

Water John wrote: »

Well, the manufacturers said, it should only be used under a certain height. So Regs or not, it did not comply for the upper section.

I'm thinking that's how Hammond declared it illegal, ignoring manufacturer instructions on max height of 10m.

Of course theres the matter of oversight and signing off on the project.It's quite shocking that the extra cost of safer materials was only £6000

http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk
Company who fitted the panels

swampgas

tara73 wrote: »

this is just unbelievable. what an arrogant, negligent attitude from this KCTMO. They officials of this company and also from K/C council should really be charged with manslaughter.

I assume (well, I hope) that the fact that a criminal investigation has started will mean that the police will be taking steps to ensure evidence is preserved, i.e. that the people repsonsible aren't feeding the shredders and deleting incriminating emails.

Widdershins

Sorry, but I'm not reading aggressive responses especially from the poster with the ''tear posts apart'' mindset.

I apologise if I posted untrue/inaccurate information.

However I doubt there was anything malicious in it, I think my friend wanted people to firstly stop rushing to blame and at least be a bit more even handed, and it looked like there were some question marks over those points at the time. The vast majority of misniformation and agitation is deliberate and coming from staunch anti-Cnservatives and members f the cult of Corbyn. His is a true personality cult now. Corbyn visits residents for 30 mins and doesn't offer any real help, but HUGZ. May, it seems, has visited the fire officers to get a handle on what needs to be done. She arranges university buildings to be made available, she arranges money to be released for personal needs, she visits the injured in hospital. And yet she gets vilified for not hugging a few residents or spending 30mins making empty statements. I don't understand it. Their lives need rebuilding, hugz does feck all.

A Dub in Glasgo

That list was an exercise in deflection and mis-information. You never checked the accuracy of any of it before posting it here and assumed it must be correct because you seen it on facebook therefore by distributing it you are party to the deflection and mis-information exercise

Widdershins

''Militant socialists'' using a fire as an excuse to overthrow government (and it states this aim n the leaflets, they're not coy). It is definitely being used as a political weapon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/17/grenfell-community-fear-day-rage-protest-could-descend-riots/

123shooter

Widdershins wrote: »

''Militant socialists'' using a fire as an excuse to overthrow government (and it states this aim n the leaflets, they're not coy). It is definitely being used as a political weapon.

They are copying what's going on by the lefty libs in America against Trump. You will find it will happen here as well if it hasn't now with the venom and mis-info spread against Brexit and now the Conservative's.

There was a Labour man on the tele today saying everybody should rise up and march on the Conservative's. He wants a million people on the street. He says the Conservative's should step down even though they won the election and make way for Corbyn and Labour cause they would be better even though they lost and the majority of the people don't want them to govern.

Pointless having an election or voting anymore if that's the case.

Now they use disasters and tragic death to rebel rouse.

Worlds gone mad.