London Fire and Aftermath RIP

gizmo81

BBC News live from the scene now and it's still burning viciously.

Itssoeasy

So has there being anymore on what was the initial source of the fire ? I had heard that someone's fridge exploded but is that a viable ignition source to cause such an inferno ?

Itssoeasy

gizmo81 wrote: »

BBC News live from the scene now and it's still burning viciously.

The BBC five live reporter on the scene is saying they can see the top floors of the building is glowing redish/pink. I mean it's a horrific site to see.

gizmo81

Yeh it's very creepy because it's glowing in the dark.

Itssoeasy wrote: »

The BBC five live reporter on the scene is saying they can see the top floors of the building is glowing redish/pink. I mean it's a horrific site to see.

Itssoeasy

gizmo81 wrote: »

Yeh it's very creepy because it's glowing in the dark.

Itssoeasy wrote: »

The BBC five live reporter on the scene is saying they can see the top floors of the building is glowing redish/pink. I mean it's a horrific site to see.

I'm not watching it, he just described it that way.

Itssoeasy

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So has there being anymore on what was the initial source of the fire ? I had heard that someone's fridge exploded but is that a viable ignition source to cause such an inferno ?

Only takes a spark to start an inferno. We don't know though, there's witness accounts that that's what happened. It's all guesswork.

prinzeugen

GM228 wrote: »

If the spread of the fire so rapidly is attributed to the cladding one would wonder was it how the cladding was fitted as opposed to the cladding in itself - i.e where shortcuts taken etc.

It was bolted on using brackets. You can see them in some of the close up pictures.

Its the same here. Poured concrete pillars/floors and walls but the outside is cladding or panels bolted on to the outside with a metal or fake brick finish.

From what I have seen, there is usually a gap.

From what I have read, during the refurbishment of similar blocks, Asbestos was removed and replaced with with materials that burn.

For example in Lakanal House, part of the stairway in each flat (they were on two levels) went out into the main hallway and was once lined with asbestos to prevent fire spread. It was replaced with plaster which gave way during the fire.

The asbestos was there for a reason. Fire.

Itssoeasy

Deleted User wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So has there being anymore on what was the initial source of the fire ? I had heard that someone's fridge exploded but is that a viable ignition source to cause such an inferno ?

Only takes a spark to start an inferno. We don't know though, there's witness accounts that that's what happened. It's all guesswork.

That's a fair point. I heard it mentioned a few times today and that it's meant to have started on the fourth floor. That's just from witnesses but to my mind a building shouldn't go up like a Christmas tree.

Itssoeasy

prinzeugen wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

If the spread of the fire so rapidly is attributed to the cladding one would wonder was it how the cladding was fitted as opposed to the cladding in itself - i.e where shortcuts taken etc.

It was bolted on using brackets. You can see them in some of the close up pictures.

Its the same here. Poured concrete pillars/floors and walls but the outside is cladding or panels bolted on to the outside with a metal or fake brick finish.

From what I have seen, there is usually a gap.

From what I have read, during the refurbishment of similar blocks, Asbestos was removed and replaced with with materials that burn.

For example in Lakanal House, part of the stairway in each flat (they were on two levels) went out into the main hallway and was once lined with asbestos to prevent fire spread. It was replaced with plaster which gave way during the fire.

The asbestos was there for a reason. Fire.

But hasn't asbestos got a bad rap in recent years ?

tara73

Grandeeod wrote: »

In terms of intensity and speed, this terrible event reminds me of Summerland, Isle of Mann in 1973. Cladding was the issue in that case. Whatever the cause, I hope its found quickly and something new as opposed to a repeat of previous mistakes/neglegience.

my guess is, there were no horizontal fire barriers installed which prevents fire speeding up in the cavity behind the cladding. And this seems exactly what happened.

This horizontal barriers are very expensive, I know from a previous job the construction company was fighting nails and toes to avoid putting in this barriers.

Itssoeasy

Itssoeasy wrote: »

That's a fair point. I heard it mentioned a few times today and that it's meant to have started on the fourth floor. That's just from witnesses but to my mind a building shouldn't go up like a Christmas tree.

As I said earlier, to my untrained eye it looks like it started low down on one side and spread across and up, as if it was the outside that had the most influence.
Thing is, once a fire properly takes hold beyond a design specification that specification is almost irrelevant. Just about anything will burn if exposed to high enough temperatures for long enough.

I can imagine quite a bit of backlash if the reports of so many on the top floors being told to stay put died.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Omackeral wrote: »

Thanks very much for those words Makikomi. I'm very proud of him and have been since I was a toddler. My dad's brother is in it too and their father was in it before them... and his father before him! I'm opted for the prison service myself so I guess I broke the 4th generational link. Seriously thanks for that though, he's a very humble guy but I love telling him how many people appreciate him and his colleagues.

No bother. I come from a military back round, I've 31 years service and counting. A lot of my mates have gone into the prison service, DFB, AGS etc, and indeed my own brother is a paramedic with the National Ambulance Service.

I can't imagine how the people of the emergency services, families, friends & neighbors are dealing with the London tragedy. I've had trouble looking at the news myself, a lot of it I've had to turn off the news channel.

God love them all.

steddyeddy

kippy wrote: »

As harsh as it sounds money is always a factor in assigning worth to a persons safety no matter the environment.

True. When it becomes classist is when more money is spent protecting one man's life over another.

JupiterKid

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But hasn't asbestos got a bad rap in recent years ?

Yes, because if asbestos particles get into your lungs it can cause mesothelioma, a horrific and incurable fatal cancer. But the reason why asbestos was used in buildings in the first place was as a fire resistant material. Millions of buildings built between 1930 and 1980 contain asbestos.

Ironically if the asbestos is kept in place and not disturbed it's fine. It's when it's disturbed and removed that there is a risk to health. For the past 30 years many buildings have had their asbestos removed but it's a slow and costly process.

I suspect the recently applied outer cladding in Grenfell House was a major factor in the shockingly fast spread of the inferno. Heads will have to roll over this tragedy.

The residents of Grenfell House complained for years that there were fire safety hazards in their tower block - they were ignored by their social landlord. Perhaps they were ignored because they were mostly poor?:mad:

prinzeugen

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But hasn't asbestos got a bad rap in recent years ?

Yes. But only certain forms of it. Most asbestos used in buildings is white asbestos sheets that are safe as long as you don't go drilling holes in it or start ripping it out.

The lining the cupboard where my immersion tank is white asbestos. I know not to mess with it but it is safe as it is.

1000's of buildings still have asbestos tiles or corrugated sheet roofs. Fine.

Blue asbestos in any form and white fibre (bit like rockwool) are lethal.

All asbestos must be disposed off carefully in licensed dumps.

steddyeddy

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes, because if asbestos particles get into your lungs it can cause mesothelioma, a horrific and incurable fatal cancer. But the reason why asbestos was used in buildings in the first place was as a fire resistant material. Millions of buildings built between 1930 and 1980 contain asbestos.

Ironically if the asbestos is kept in place and not disturbed it's fine. It's when it's disturbed and removed that there is a risk to health. For the past 30 years many buildings have had their asbestos removed but it's a slow and costly process.

I suspect the recently applied outer cladding in Grenfell House was a major factor in the shockingly fast spread of the inferno. Heads will have to roll over this tragedy.

The residents of Grenfell House complained for years that there were fire safety hazards in their tower block - they were ignored by their social landlord. Perhaps they were ignored because they were mostly poor?:mad:

No prehaps about it. I'll bet some snobs will think they should be lucky to be living in London at all.

prinzeugen

Poor?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-56050372.html

Jolly Red Giant

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Blairites are Labour - therefore socialist. So it looks like all parties are to blame then.

Tony Blair and his lapdogs are socialist :rolleyes:

Itssoeasy

Bbc five live are saying they are hearing from two sources that fire fighters are unable to go above a certain floor in the tower. He couldn't confirm them but it might explain why the top of the building is still glowing.

Grandeeod

tara73 wrote: »

my guess is, there were no horizontal fire barriers installed which prevents fire speeding up in the cavity behind the cladding. And this seems exactly what happened.

This horizontal barriers are very expensive, I know from a previous job the construction company was fighting nails and toes to avoid putting in this barriers.

I mentioned Summerland in the Isle of Mann, because I lost reletives in that particular disaster. I visited the place in 1982 for a remembrance event at the age of 10. I'm glad the place was demolished in the noughties as it was literally a graveyard. In later years I researched what happened and it stuck with me. The word "cladding" still scares me to this day. While I do not know the cause of todays tragedy, the references to the cladding was a reminder. Here's two images from Grenfell tower and then Summerland. I saw the similarities.

grenfell tower.jpeg

Summerland-Fire-Tragedy-Douglas-Isle-of-Man-2nd-August-1973-by-Adrian-Ashurst_6597191.jpg

steddyeddy

prinzeugen wrote: »

Poor?

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-56050372.html

Yep. People have no choice but to live in London. Plenty of people there are on the breadline.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.standard.co.uk/news/london/notting-hill-pastor-blames-disgusting-treatment-of-poor-for-grenfell-tower-block-fire-a3565121.html%3Famp

Yourself isit

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yep. People have no choice but to live in London. Plenty of people there are on the breadline.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.standard.co.uk/news/london/notting-hill-pastor-blames-disgusting-treatment-of-poor-for-grenfell-tower-block-fire-a3565121.html%3Famp

The market rate is 2.3k a month though. So the apartments there are mixed.

mrslancaster

Mr.Plough wrote: »

Fire Engineer here.

Private residential buildings almost always have a 'stay put' evacuation strategy,.. So in the event of a fire, residents stay in their apartment (which is essentially a fire proof box, if built correctly), until the fire brigade arrive (6 minutes in this case). Only people in the fire affected apartment evacuate initially.
.

not much use if people are trapped on high floors and the ladders only reach the 12th floor

it would make me very wary about living in a high rise apartment block

Mint Sauce

Live on BBC now, orange glow still visable from the building. Authorities saying not at risk of collapsing.

kopite386

Looking on sky news now and the fire is still from floors 12-24, when I was watching earlier there was some small fires but not like now, seems the wind of something else has fanned the flames

Murrisk

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes, because if asbestos particles get into your lungs it can cause mesothelioma, a horrific and incurable fatal cancer.

Except if you're Stephen Jay Gould, he actually survived it! :eek: He died of an unrelated lung cancer 20 years after being treated for mesothelioma. He'd be an outlier though, on the long tail of the survival graph as he said himself.

MysticMonk

Deleted User wrote: »

Only takes a spark to start an inferno. We don't know though, there's witness accounts that that's what happened. It's all guesswork.

I suspect it was deliberate but that's just me.

Murrisk

Grandeeod wrote: »

I mentioned Summerland in the Isle of Mann, because I lost reletives in that particular disaster.

My sympathies, that was a horrific incident.

kopite386

Firefighters were told to put their names on their helmets before they went in, showing they didn't think many would come back out
https://twitter.com/crispymick/status/874999483326754817

JustAThought

All of this enclosed spaces and trapped in a fire is chilling. For those who havnt had their full range of horror with this tragedy in London google Station House Fire in the USA. I think over 200 people died. A firework at a concert lit the internal insulation and it quickly became an inferno. one of the most frightening things on the internet - it was filmed live, from inside the gig as it happened, ironically as part of a fire safety promotion. Frightening how silently and quickly it all happened - within about 6 minutes the guy filming was out and behind him the place was an inferno. Bone chilling. Whatever our and any firemen earn they should just triple it. They risk death for us every hour of every day they work, the trauma they deal with must be unimaginable. Whatever they earn, and it is not much, it is far far too little for these men of steel. Heros all.

AllForIt

Murrisk wrote: »

I lost all faith in media sensitivity when I saw RTÉ's handling of that terrible pier tragedy in Donegal last year. Camping outside the bereaved woman's home and pressing the young lad who rescued the baby to describe the scene when he was still clearly traumatised. The Berkeley balcony collapse also crossed the line in how invasive the coverage was, IMO.

It absolutely sickens me, especially when these news outlets hide behind the excuse of trying to be informative and to date. No, you're sensationalist ghouls.

I can't understand why these news agencies cross the line. Sky news are excellent at reporting live events but I can't understand why they would want to ruin their reputation by going tabloid gutter press at times.

JupiterKid wrote: »

I suspect the recently applied outer cladding in Grenfell House was a major factor in the shockingly fast spread of the inferno. Heads will have to roll over this tragedy.

That's exactly what it was. There were large flames of fire on the exterior of the building which tallies with spectators reports that the building went up in flames in a matter of minutes because it all started on the outside and then worked it's way to the inside.

What I suspect is that the cladding wasn't erected for the satisfaction of the occupants, rather it was done because those tower block buildings were so unsightly to the customers of the nearby luxurious Westfield shopping center which was built circa 2010 to regenerate the area.

Millions were poured into that shopping center where only a few hundred yards away ppl were living in council run high rise towers and not a penny was spent on their safety, only on superficiality.

kopite386

Just saying on sky news there that fire fighters are bringing in lights to work through the night

The tube line behind the building has also reopened

All im thinking about is the sight that the firefighters will see when they begin the recovery process once the fire is put out

Stheno

11 stories still on fire

emmetlego

AllForIt wrote: »

What I suspect is that the cladding wasn't erected for the satisfaction of the occupants,

The residents were told it was insulation apparently. Awful awful tragedy. I have a lot of connections in London, mostly sports wise, so I am very saddened by these events. RIP and condolences to all involved. A scandal where people have lost lives again?

Omackeral

MysticMonk wrote: »

I suspect it was deliberate but that's just me.

Why do you suspect that?

Realistically, how many people would live in those flats? Given... what... 25 (?) storeys, then we're likely looking at hundreds or the low thousands?

kopite386

Just on sky as they are going through the front pages but I can't believe the sun and more so the times included a picture of people in a window waving a flag to try get help, it's not known if they survived and it's as disrespectful as ITV news earlier showing a video of it

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/875101886705225731

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/875101744174428160

I can half expect it from the Sun but the times​ as well ...

MysticMonk

Omackeral wrote: »

Why do you suspect that?

Because it happens.

Buildings go on fire either accidentaly or by way of arson..it's a 50/50 bet.

degsie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Realistically, how many people would live in those flats? Given... what... 25 (?) storeys, then we're likely looking at hundreds or the low thousands?

24 floors each with 4 double bedrooms and 2 single bedrooms.

Omackeral

MysticMonk wrote: »

Because it happens.

But who do you suspect or why?

tara73

Stheno wrote: »

11 stories still on fire

yes, just seen on tv, house is on fire inside again as winds reigniting it again.

Breaston Plants

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sky-news-grenfell-tower-fire-10619499.amp&ved=0ahUKEwiT36vvs77UAhVRZFAKHVc5CA4QqUMIKjAE&usg=AFQjCNHNedIRS7GNdgGavkFCBqeL1LG2Sg

prinzeugen

AllForIt wrote: »

I can't understand why these news agencies cross the line. Sky news are excellent at reporting live events but I can't understand why they would want to ruin their reputation by going tabloid gutter press at times.



That's exactly what it was. There were large flames of fire on the exterior of the building which tallies with spectators reports that the building went up in flames in a matter of minutes because it all started on the outside and then worked it's way to the inside.

What I suspect is that the cladding wasn't erected for the satisfaction of the occupants, rather it was done because those tower block buildings were so unsightly to the customers of the nearby luxurious Westfield shopping center which was built circa 2010 to regenerate the area.

Millions were poured into that shopping center where only a few hundred yards away ppl were living in council run high rise towers and not a penny was spent on their safety, only on superficiality.

They have been cladding high rise blocks in the UK since the mid-late 80s.

It has nothing do do with politics or class so stop trying to make it an issue.

Most of these tower blocks were designed for OAPs, newly married couples or single people back in the 60's.

We now have families of 5 or more living in flats that were designed with a 20-30 year life span.

They were never designed for that level of occupancy or life.

Ronan Point, especially its demolition should be a must read for anyone that lives in a block of flats.

Death traps from the day they were built. I think Red Road flats in Glasgow were the safest as they were steel framed.

I mean, surely that's a case of pot calling kettle black ..?

B.A._Baracus

kopite386 wrote: »

..... I can half expect it from the Sun but the times​ as well ...

Personally I think the media are ghouls.

MysticMonk

Omackeral wrote: »

But who do you suspect or why?

I suspect whoever (potentially) caused the fire.
As for why,thats for forensic experts to establish.

JupiterKid

The Summerland tragedy happened before I was born but I remember reading about it in the 90s and thinking how horrific it would be to have fiery, molten plastic rain down on me as I tried to escape. The plastic cladding burned fiercely and exacerbated the fire - caused by 12 year boys smoking.


On an aside, London is actually becoming a city polarised between the deprived, many of which are ethnic minorities and the filthy rich, oligarchs from Russia, Saudi and China who have been snapping up housing all over the city to leave vacant. The squeezed middle are being forced out of the city by stratospheric rents and house prices. I blame Thatcher and her policies for much of this.

Grandeeod

Murrisk wrote: »

My sympathies, that was a horrific incident.

Thanks for that. All day today my thoughts are with those affected at Grenfell Tower. Fire is such a positive, yet bloody destructive thing. The Stardust fire is stuck in my head too because it was, a recent at the time, reminder to my family of that day in Summerland. I remember the conversations the following year at the remembrance. But we move on and I look forward to the cause of todays terrible event being found so things can hopefully get better. Its all one can do.

RIP to the dead. Horrible horrible thing to happen.

clairewithani

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Personally I think the media are ghouls.

Aided by general public. If people buy/click easily it validates them.