The Offseason 2017

ButtersSuki

Hazys wrote: »

Cleveland gave up an All Star PG (that everybody knew was getting traded anyway) and got an All Star (obvious not as good and one less year on his contract), a great contract in Crowder, a promising C and a top 5/10 pick.

Its hard not to see how Cleveland didn't come out on top of this one.


All I know is that the East will be 100x more interesting this year.

I'm just shocked at what they (Boston) gave up. Irving should have returned pennies on the dollar given he wanted out/how it went down etc.; instead the Cavs got more. And from Boston - that's the strangest part of all of this to me. I'd imagine a team like the Knicks making this kinda trade and overpaying, but bot Boston.

Gregk961

Great trade for the Cavs I'd say they are delighted.

LuckyLloyd

The Cavs nailed it! Best thing they've done in years tbh, maximised a poor situation. Thomas really won;t upset their current flow or make up and Crowder is a very nice addition that alleviates some weaknesses on a nice contract. They now are in a great spot to kickstart a rebuild if LeBron leaves at season's end too with a top lottery pick.

Nice work!!!!

2smiggy

Some strange decisions by the Celtics , from giving up the number 1 pick in the draft, to what they have given up in this trade. Hopefully it works out , but it seems they are going for broke this year and next. Not sure how it will work out though.

ButtersSuki

I'm still baffled by this. Considering how parsimonious the Celtics have been in recent trade windows and considering the market-determined trade value for Jimmy Butler and Paul George this summer the Cavs (relatively) robbed them blind. I'm not saying this just as a C's fan, but in the current market giving up Thomas and Crowder (who I hate to see go) OR Thomas + Nets pick alone should have been enough to get that deal done. I don't get why they had to throw in Zizic and the Nets pick as well. Boston must want Kyrie really badly to do this.

One other thing for me that has me a little worried at the back of my mind tbh is the fact that Boston wasn't on one of Kyrie's "4 teams I want to be traded to" list. They obviously figure they have 2 years to convince him to stay, but that's a bit risky IMO. Even if LeBron leaves the Cavs and goes to the West next summer that only leaves a window of one season where you're the lock down 1 seed in the East.

Paully D

Of course they're probably going to leak it now anyway, but the Celtics had serious concerns about Thomas' hip, according to ESPN.

Interesting to see how that one plays out.

2smiggy

have they not Irving for 3 years ? I thought I read he gave up his ability to opt out after 2 years with the trade ? This would make more sense ,Celtics wise, of the trade

ButtersSuki

2smiggy wrote: »

have they not Irving for 3 years ? I thought I read he gave up his ability to opt out after 2 years with the trade ? This would make more sense ,Celtics wise, of the trade

News to me if he did....and it's not something I think the CBA allows - but I may be incorrect at that.

ButtersSuki

Oh and I forgot to mention this earlier - guess who's playing on opening night? Boston and the Cavs. You couldn't make it up.

Gregk961

How do Celtics fans feel about losing Isaiah? Aside from the fact that Kyrie is a better player(though I would argue only slightly better at the moment) I would have thought the Boston faithful would have fallen in love with Thomas. Considering everything that went against him in the playoffs I thought he was an absolute warrior, I couldn't praise him enough for his attitude and bravery.

Nba players are seen as mercenaries or interchangeable pieces most of the time but I would be sorry to see IT go in a way if I were a Celtics supporter.

2smiggy

ButtersSuki wrote: »

News to me if he did....and it's not something I think the CBA allows - but I may be incorrect at that.

ya just reading this morning, I think i was mistaken. Would be a bad blow if he opted out after 2 years

McLoughlin

Gregk961 wrote: »

How do Celtics fans feel about losing Isaiah? Aside from the fact that Kyrie is a better player(though I would argue only slightly better at the moment) I would have thought the Boston faithful would have fallen in love with Thomas. Considering everything that went against him in the playoffs I thought he was an absolute warrior, I couldn't praise him enough for his attitude and bravery.

Nba players are seen as mercenaries or interchangeable pieces most of the time but I would be sorry to see IT go in a way if I were a Celtics supporter.

As i C's fan I sad to see IT go especially after last year and the play offs but the hip troubles me and I guessing the Celtics management. If IT struggles this year misses time due to injury I think the fans will get over it

ButtersSuki

The general consensus from reading what I've read (a lot) and the two full podcasts I've listened too is both teams have done well out of the trade BUT the Celtics definitely overpaid - which is very strange for them.

LuckyLloyd

Particularly when Irving had put the Cavs in a very poor negotiating position. Getting the Nets 2018 pick without any protection is quite the coup.

nerd69

Hard for anyone to say really because we don't know what was on the table even with Irving demanding a trade I have to imagine there where some big offers on the table for a 25y/o all star so you didn't really have them over a barrel.

I'm very very sad to see Isiah go he must be one of the most likeable people in the league and he put his body on the line but having said all that the thought of paying him a max was terrifying so I think the trade makes sense. The celtics rosters probably not a championship team now but I would say they are top 6-7 and they have a much younger team than most of the other top teams so all in all it's a good move I think (not to mention they had to consolidate assets at some point as there are only so many spots on the roster)

Apparently the cavs eventually settled for the nets pick because the celtics wouldn't give up Tatum which says a lot about how people see his potential around the league

ButtersSuki

The real question is is this the final play or is this Step 2 (with Hayward being Step 1) to acquire Step 3 (Anthony Davis or AN Other)?

It's the same MO that they used to acquire KG. No way KG was going to Boston until Ray Allen went there, Pierce on his own wasn't enough of a draw.

nerd69

ButtersSuki wrote: »

The real question is is this the final play or is this Step 2 (with Hayward being Step 1) to acquire Step 3 (Anthony Davis or AN Other)?

It's the same MO that they used to acquire KG. No way KG was going to Boston until Ray Allen went there, Pierce on his own wasn't enough of a draw.

Don't think they have the pieces for Davis

Gregk961

ButtersSuki wrote: »

The real question is is this the final play or is this Step 2 (with Hayward being Step 1) to acquire Step 3 (Anthony Davis or AN Other)?

It's the same MO that they used to acquire KG. No way KG was going to Boston until Ray Allen went there, Pierce on his own wasn't enough of a draw.

Kyrie, Hayward, Tatum/Brown and Davis seems like a championship team but is that even possible?

ButtersSuki

nerd69 wrote: »

Don't think they have the pieces for Davis

Davis can walk in 2019; so if you're NO next year do you trade for what you can get or let him walk for nothing? Boston still have picks (their own included).

The lure of playing with Kyrie in particular and Hayward, and being the best team in the East (I'm taking it for granted LeBron is a Laker next season) and making the Finals repeatedly has to be attractive.

ButtersSuki

Irving trade not done yet, Cavs want MORE! Crazy.

NufcNavan

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Irving trade not done yet, Cavs want MORE! Crazy.

If the reports about the hip injury are true then the Nets pick makes sense.

Vital Transformation

Gregk961 wrote: »

I'm nearly sure nba tv show Eurobasket. They did at least once anyway!

Sky Sports had a highlights package of it on their free channel very recently. I taped it once, was only a couple of months ago.

Vital Transformation

Question about the initial Kyrie trade - did Boston straight up offer the three players and pick or did they first offer less behind the scenes and have it rejected? (e.g not throwing the pick in with the deal)

ButtersSuki

Vital Transformation wrote: »

Question about the initial Kyrie trade - did Boston straight up offer the three players and pick or did they first offer less behind the scenes and have it rejected? (e.g not throwing the pick in with the deal)

We'll likely never know, but you'd have to assume they went low first, then after each rejection kept adding until they reached an agreement. They'd never offer that much straight off the bad Thoth - esp. Boston (tight as f*ck!).

ButtersSuki

2 good Bill Simmons and KD podcasts to listen to (2nd one went up last night). the first is more interesting than the 2nd where he touches on the Irving trade.

brady23

Phenomenal return for the Cavs on paper at least.

What I would say is I think Kyrie will get better. His defensive issues are not physical like IT but are simply effort. He has played better defense in the playoffs. He's a top 5 PG right now on talent at least and he's the youngest of that elite group so provided he re-signs Boston won't have fared too bad.

Cavs haul is great for a variety of reasons. You pick up two players who make you better immediately provided IT is injury free come Xmas. Additionally both pick ups have such unbelievable contracts and saves them approx 30m in taxes. Crowder especially 3 years 21m 12th in RPM last year I believe ridiculous contract.

Zizic I'm not sold on. Doesnt move particularly fluidly but he should be a 20 min role player at least during the regular season.

Obviously the pick is the big haul. If Marvin Bagley hadn't been reclassed I'd be worried as youre essentially betting on nabbing Michael Porter Jr. I think the gap between them two and the rest is huge. Bigger than Simmons/Ingram to the rest on paper at least.

I think yes in terms of potential value Cavs got a great deal as I think those top 2 guys are perennial all star caliber players. IT could again have a great season if he proves fitness and Zizic could make a leap. Crowder could fit into the rotation and be an RPM great again.

That said I think the Cavs haul has the potential to go south. IT doesn't get fit and regresses, Zizic falls out of the rotation, Crowder proves he was unbelievable because Stevens maximised him in his rotation and the pick falls outside the Top 2.

Irving has proved himself at every level now. I'm not sure he's good enough to lead a team but I think playing with LeBron and winning a title will result in us seeing a better version of Kyrie than before as the alpha. Very interesting trade. Great for the Cavs if it works out but Celtics definitely didn't do as bad as I initially thought.

ButtersSuki

It really depends on the ceiling for Irving. Potentially it could be huge. He hasn't been "the man" but he's as close to unguardable as it gets when he's on form.

It could be a great trade for both teams; it could also be bad for one or both. Only time will tell.

nerd69

Cavs can **** off if they think they are get brown or taytum on top

McLoughlin

nerd69 wrote: »

Cavs can **** off if they think they are get brown or taytum on top

It all comes down to what information the Celtics gave the Cavs regarding Thomas and his hip injury if the Celtics were honest and upfront the Cavs have nothing to complain about but if the Celtics weren't honest well a **** storm could happened and the Commish might be getting involved.

It will be an interesting few days

ButtersSuki

nerd69 wrote: »

Cavs can **** off if they think they are get brown or taytum on top

They want money apparently!

The medics will determine the injury status/rehab schedule etc., although word of warning - that injury has ended other player's careers.

It's another reason I'm surprised the deal went through. Normally you don't do a deal on an injured guy, you wait until he's recovered and passed the physical before you accept the trade.