General Premier League Thread - 2017/2018

Trigger

Liverpool

blueser wrote: »

It's widely believed that our defence is the weak link in our team. Yet we've got the joint best defensive record in the league with utd (20 goals conceded, 4 of them in a crazy 60 minutes at Anfield). I suppose it's down to Pep's philosophy of controlling possession. If you've got the ball, the other team can't score.

The high line is the weak link at city imo, when a team breaks at Pace the backline can be widely exposed with only one defender really there, it’s why Pep prefers to have a sweeper keeper too tbh.

But defence by possession and extreme pressing is still a form of defence and it works for ye as if the team can’t get the ball into the positions to start those counters in the first place it’s not going to be much use either

blueser

astradave wrote: »

The high line is the weak link at city imo, when a team breaks at Pace the backline can be widely exposed with only one defender really there, it’s why Pep prefers to have a sweeper keeper too tbh.

But defence by possession and extreme pressing is still a form of defence and it works for ye as if the team can’t get the ball into the positions to start those counters in the first place it’s not going to be much use either

Good post, that. The high press is a key factor in our excellent run this season. Get the ball back off the opposition before they can do anything dangerous with it. It works for us as we have a (largely) young team who are very fit and can play such a physically demanding game.

callaway92

Liverpool

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I have no issue with Arsenal fans wanting a change. As I've said before personally I think Arsene should have walked years ago as I don't know how he puts up with the flak. Obviously he loves the club a lot.

If Wenger loved the club he’d have left years ago. He’s 100% selfish and that’s completely obvious. I’m not an Arsenal fan and you don’t need to be one to know that.

IncognitoMan

blueser wrote: »

It's widely believed that our defence is the weak link in our team. Yet we've got the joint best defensive record in the league with utd (20 goals conceded, 4 of them in a crazy 60 minutes at Anfield). I suppose it's down to Pep's philosophy of controlling possession. If you've got the ball, the other team can't score.

That's it. It's defense by possession. The midfield and forwards are so good at the moment that the defense is rarely tested. That's why Delph got away with being in the side for so long.

I think you know this yourself as I remember you calling it a few weeks back against Liverpool. It would be interesting to see a few more teams attack a bit more. Some for sure would get hammered, as its not easy to do but they are currently getting hammered anyway so what's to lose. Set up to attack them, take a few risks and not just defend all game and I think you'd see a far more shaky city team than we are currently seeing.

One thing is for sure anyway sitting back doesn't work.

It would have been very interesting to have seen would Chelsea have got much joy out of starting Giroud with Hazard and Willian behind and gone for the quick counter. Get a few flick ons from Giroud with Hazard or Willian getting onto them and you'd soon see that City backline drop a couple of yards.

Iused2likebusts

Liverpool

Burnley also pressed city very high up the pitch . Played 442 and had a go at them and got a bit of joy.

blueser

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Burnley also pressed city very high up the pitch . Played 442 and had a go at them and got a bit of joy.

Yep. That's what surprised me about Chelsea's approach to today. Anyone who's watched a fair bit of us this season will know that teams who had a go at us had the most joy. Burnley, Palace, Wolves, Liverpool, Bristol City (particularly the first leg) and the early part of the CL game in Naples.

How much will Conte get when he's sacked?

Mr.Nice Guy

Liverpool

callaway92 wrote: »

If Wenger loved the club he’d have left years ago. He’s 100% selfish and that’s completely obvious. I’m not an Arsenal fan and you don’t need to be one to know that.

He's turned down bigger clubs than Arsenal that would have given him a transfer kitty which would dwarf that of the one he's had to operate with. If anything he's been too selfless.

ERG89

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

He's turned down bigger clubs than Arsenal that would have given him a transfer kitty which would dwarf that of the one he's had to operate with. If anything he's been too selfless.

How many big clubs in the last 5 or 6 years would touch him?
He keeps saying it but it's a sad defence.

Mr.Nice Guy

Liverpool

ERG89 wrote: »

How many big clubs in the last 5 or 6 years would touch him?
He keeps saying it but it's a sad defence.

Most of them I would say. Look at some of the names that have popped up at big clubs in recent times with records far less impressive than his.

ERG89

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Most of them I would say. Look at some of the names that have popped up at big clubs in recent times with records far less impressive than his.

Then why didn't any of them look to hire him?
He wouldn't be getting a 10 million a year contract anywhere else in Europe for winning a few domestic cups.
If he won as little as he won with Arsenal in the last decade at a Bayern or Barca he'd be thrown out the door head first

Mr.Nice Guy

Liverpool

ERG89 wrote: »

Then why didn't any of them look to hire him?
He wouldn't be getting a 10 million a year contract anywhere else in Europe for winning a few domestic cups.
If he won as little as he won with Arsenal in the last decade at a Bayern or Barca he'd be thrown out the door head first

He turned down big clubs out of loyalty to Arsenal.

“When we built the stadium the banks demanded I signed for five years,” he said. “I did it. Do you want me to tell you how many clubs I turned down during that period? I have shown I am committed.”

Ashburton Properties, a subsidiary of Arsenal Holdings plc, had obtained a £260m loan to fund the construction work from a stadium facilities banking group – comprising the Royal Bank of Scotland, Espirito Santo Investment, Bank of Ireland, Allied Irish Banks, CIT Group Structured Finance (UK) and HSH Nordbank AG – in 2004. Wenger suggested he offered them a guarantee he would remain at the helm for the first five years at the Emirates Stadium to provide a level of stability at the top of the club and ensure Arsenal met their target of Champions League football, with its associated revenue streams.

Given the manager signed contract extensions in 2004 and 2007, it appears his pledge to the banks was more of an informal commitment, but he knocked back interest from clubs such as Real Madrid – in 2009 and 2010 – Barcelona and Manchester City over that time. “The banks wanted the technical consistency to guarantee we had a chance to pay back [the loan],” he said. “I did commit and I stayed, under very difficult circumstances. So for me to find [his critics] are reproaching me for not winning the championship during that period I think is a bit overboard. I accept criticism but I think that it is a bit too far.

“When we built the stadium, we knew we’d have five to seven difficult financial years where we had to pay the money back: we had to be three years in the Champions League out of five and have an average of 54,000 people [to meet costs], and we didn’t know we would be capable of that. We had to sell our best players every year to survive but we didn’t do three years out of five in the Champions League. We did five out of five. Now the club is in a stronger position and we can compete again with our main opponents.”

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/29/arsene-wenger-real-barcelona-manchester-city

This is why I say he should have been more selfless.

Most managers nowadays know they have a shelf life of maybe 18 months, so they don't give a toss about the finances of the club. Look at Mourinho. He doesn't care how much is spent on Pogba, or Sanchez. Wenger is a rarity in that he's a manager that actually cares about the club operating well and being stable long-term. Most modern day mercenary managers don't give a damn.

theoneeyedman

It's alright saying arsenal are crap,and in fairness they're not great. But, and I've made this point for many months now, look at the squad,and what position would you expect them to be in ?

Especially now that Sanchez has jumped ship, how many of their players would command a starting place at any of the top 5 teams ? Is argue none. They have probably the 6th best team in the league,and are in 6th.

The underlying reasons for this can be debated (poor transfers, poor leadership,lack of ruthlessness from the top, too many people in the comfort zone ), but they are where they are,and it will take some big decisions to stop the rot.

They were still worse in the pre-George Graham and pre - Wenger days though 😉

Article is from 2 years ago when Leicester were a couple of months from winning the league. Since then look what's happened.
What I also like is that they had these targets and exceeded their targets financially yet were still in the same **** position. Now they have money and are getting worse. Look at the money now that they have it and they piss it away. Go through the squad player by player and see what's there.

beya2009

I understand Conte going defensive against City as he doesn't want to get a hammering but even when a goal down they still lacked ambition and just wouldn't commit bodies forward. Their squad is surely easily over 200 million so they should be having a go. Fear of getting hammered I guess. Will be interesting to see how they go about their business against Barca (who play similar to man city in the tiki taka) where at some point they will need to take risks having to score. Hazard looked just a frustrated figure in the game today and wasn't too impressed in being subbed off and he better prepare for even more donkey work against Barca lol

ERG89

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Most managers nowadays know they have a shelf life of maybe 18 months, so they don't give a toss about the finances of the club. Look at Mourinho. He doesn't care how much is spent on Pogba, or Sanchez. Wenger is a rarity in that he's a manager that actually cares about the club operating well and being stable long-term. Most modern day mercenary managers don't give a damn.

Wenger spent 50 million on Lacazette & went out to buy Aubemayang for 60 to play in his position so he knows what a chequebook looks like too. Xhaka, Mustafi & Ozil's cost weren't free transfers either.
Doesn't improve players either if anything does the opposite.
Wenger's shelf life expired when they went from title contenders to top 4 specialists now the they are closer to Burnley than the top 4. This despite the fact they played reserves in the Europa League group stage so had a free 6 month run to focus on the league whereas the top 5 had champions league football to deal with. Even then come February when the European knockouts stage came around they were miles off the title race.

Mr.Nice Guy

Liverpool

Deleted User wrote: »

Article is from 2 years ago when Leicester were a couple of months from winning the league. Since then look what's happened.
What I also like is that they had these targets and exceeded their targets financially yet were still in the same **** position. Now they have money and are getting worse. Look at the money now that they have it and they piss it away. Go through the squad player by player and see what's there.

Another piece of silverware happened. There's been a lot of praise for Klopp and Pochettino the last few years - justifiably so imo - but it's often overlooked that neither have won trophies in England.

And while high-ranking losing positions may seem impressive now, twenty years from now no one will care who finished second, third and fourth. But the FA Cup wins will be looked back on fondly. That's the funny thing.

ERG89 wrote:

Wenger spent 50 million on Lacazette & went out to buy Aubemayang for 60 to play in his position so he knows what a chequebook looks like too. Xhaka, Mustafi & Ozil's cost weren't free transfers either.
Doesn't improve players either if anything does the opposite.
Wenger's shelf life expired when they went from title contenders to top 4 specialists now the they are closer to Burnley than the top 4. This despite the fact they played reserves in the Europa League group stage so had a free 6 month run to focus on the league whereas the top 5 had champions league football to deal with. Even then come February when the European knockouts stage came around they were miles off the title race.

50 and 60 million are what City splash out on defenders. It's a different playing field now. Blockbuster signings for Arsenal are chump change to them.

I'd love to ask Arsenal fans this: if the Premier League goes the way of the Bundesliga and Ligue 1 - and possibly Serie A in future - where one club dominates over the rest and wins the league at a canter, which would you prefer: FA Cup wins, or high-ranking finishes that result in Champions League football.

If you say the former, well you may wind up looking back on the last few years with fondness; if you say the latter, you have allowed the money men to dupe you into thinking glitzy, glamorous failure is preferable to winning things. A bastardisation of sport.

beya2009

With Arsenal and Wenger...I think it's the ridiculously high standards he set himself that has been his downfall. He built his great teams in the past from clever scouting...buying players for peanuts and turning them to world beaters and adapting when the likes of Chelsea and Man City ultimately became a place for cheque book managers to spend a fortune on transfers was always going to be difficult to compete with. With the exception of Leicester City which was an outlier, just 3 teams have dominated the league in the past decade.

My point about expectation is that I hear a lot of people saying Arsenal have been in decline for the past decade but last season was the first time under his reign they didn't finish in the top 4 and he's won 3 FA cups in the last five years. Look how hard it has been for Liverpool and Man U in recent seasons to finish top 4 (it's extremely difficult to achieve it). If Pochettino had achieved 3 FA cups in the past 5 years at Spurs people would be calling him the best manager in the world. Look at Man U...by many last season was good winning a double with the Europa league but was it really for a club the size of Man U? If Barca or Real Madrid had won the domestic cup and the Europa league...no doubt about it...the British media would be laughing. I just think expectations from Arsenal fans are off the charts imo.

tayto lover

Wenger should be sacked. He's knocked down everything he's built.

Mr.Nice Guy

Liverpool

beya2009 wrote: »

Look at Man U...by many last season was good winning a double with the Europa league but was it really for a club the size of Man U?

Good point. A lot of people forget that going into that Europa League final there was massive pressure on Jose Mourinho. Had they lost to Ajax there would have been a similar clamour for him to be sacked - United finished sixth place and were actually six points behind Arsenal. Winning that trophy saved United's season and probably Jose's job.

Following on from the disappointing end to his Chelsea spell, had United sacked him Mourinho would have been labelled a flop and written off as a manager who was no longer a top coach. Instead, United stuck by him and while he has still endured criticism, he would likely make most people's top ten managers in the world list if you asked them to come up with one at present.

It goes to show how wildly things can fluctuate. Nine months ago Wenger was praised for denying Chelsea a double and for becoming the most decorated manager in the FA Cup's near-150 year history. Today he is accused of selfishly presiding over a terminal decline of his club.

Nine months from now Wenger could be presiding over a PSG side doing well in the Champions League, or perhaps acting as the new manager of the French national side if Deschamps by then has stepped aside. And his stock could be high once again; and Arsenal meanwhile could have made a bad appointment and could be struggling, a la United in the post-Fergie era. Stranger things have happened and will continue to happen. That's why we would do well to ask what's more likely: that managers can go from successful to stupid in less than 12 months, or that there are other factors at play for why clubs can have disappointing seasons.

Everton

I can agree with some of the sentiment however have you not considered age being a factor in his decline?
Maybe taking over the national team is the only likely move for him after Arsenal.
I really cannot see PSG signing him at near 70 years of age.

Everton

https://twitter.com/AdamJosephSport/status/970437374281789441?s=19

LuckyLloyd

ziggyman17 wrote: »

In years past, the top teams would have it put up to them by teams in the bottom 3, but now the league is very poor, probably the poorest it is since the Premier league started up.......

Completely disagree, and it’s borne out by the Champions League performances. The top of the league is the strongest it’s been as a group in ~10 years or so, and the surplus of money generally has created a parity of sorts in the tiers below them.

DeanAustin

Man City

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Completely disagree, and it’s borne out by the Champions League performances. The top of the league is the strongest it’s been as a group in ~10 years or so, and the surplus of money generally has created a parity of sorts in the tiers below them.

Dead right. You had some proper **** in the league in the 90s before the influx of foreign players. The standard now is light years ahead of then even if it's not necessarily more competitive.

Gbear

Liverpool

I'm not sure I'd agree about selfishness, but there's certainly a large degree of egotism in Wenger's decision to stay on beyond the point where he was doing any good.

Most clubs want to see growth every year. Sometimes you reach the top and the only way is down, but other than that, you want to get closer and closer to the top.

When was the last time that was true at Arsenal? 2008?

A year or two after long success is grand, particularly if you could see how one team that was successful was coming to an end and the seeds of another were being sown. 10 years though?

That's half his reign.

Iused2likebusts

Liverpool

Wilshire has 7 goals and 17 assists in his premier league career not far off 10 years since his debut.

beya2009

lol Apparently Conte basically called Jamie Redknapp and Garry Neville stupid for their fierce criticism of chelsea's tactics against city yesterday. Redknapp stated their tactics was a crime against football and Neville called them an embarrassment.

blueser

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Wilshire has 7 goals and 17 assists in his premier league career not far off 10 years since his debut.

Are those stats right? I always thought he was criminally overrated, but I had no idea his stats were that poor.

PhlegmyMoses

Liverpool

beya2009 wrote: »

lol Apparently Conte basically called Jamie Redknapp and Garry Neville stupid for their fierce criticism of chelsea's tactics against city yesterday. Redknapp stated their tactics was a crime against football and Neville called them an embarrassment.

Conte is right imo. Barring the weird Hazard positioning, trying to shut up shop against City is not embarrassing. Neville and Carragher are both rightly fawning over City every week, so surely it makes sense that a team in a bit of freefall, 5th in the league, would employ negative tactics.

MD1990

beya2009 wrote: »

lol Apparently Conte basically called Jamie Redknapp and Garry Neville stupid for their fierce criticism of chelsea's tactics against city yesterday. Redknapp stated their tactics was a crime against football and Neville called them an embarrassment.

Neville is getting embarrassed by a lot recently.

No wonder he has given on management since his Valencia experience.

Don't think he realises how good City are.

ERG89

MD1990 wrote: »

Don't think he realises how good City are.

I don't think he enjoys watching them when commentating on their games that's for sure

Iused2likebusts

Liverpool

blueser wrote: »

Are those stats right? I always thought he was criminally overrated, but I had no idea his stats were that poor.

Ye I got them off the FPL website. He can look good on the ball but at the end of the day he has little or no end product and the hype he gets is unreal.

Trigger

Liverpool

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Ye I got them off the FPL website. He can look good on the ball but at the end of the day he has little or no end product and the hype he gets is unreal.

Since he made his debut, including his time with Bournemouth and Bolton he has played 228 games in total and has 15 goals and 31 assists

Urindanger

ERG89 wrote: »

I don't think he enjoys watching them when commentating on their games that's for sure

Neville has turned into an awful miserable so and so. At first he was a decent pundit but he's quickly becoming one of the worst ones mainly down his biased ways and being so negative about everything.

DeanAustin

Man City

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Ye I got them off the FPL website. He can look good on the ball but at the end of the day he has little or no end product and the hype he gets is unreal.

You can't judge a player just on stats. Wilshere is more in the Modric mould which means he won't score many goals (their respective goal tallies for their current clubs are not too dissimilar) or get many assists. But he links play together brilliantly.

I'm a Spurs fan and I can't stand Wilshere for obvious reasons but he's an excellent player and the type of player that we need more of in this country and that England also need.

gimli2112

astradave wrote: »

Since he made his debut, including his time with Bournemouth he has played 228 games in total and has 15 goals and 31 assists

The English Messi? Surprised with those stats he seems to get a lot of praise.

Trigger

Liverpool

gimli2112 wrote: »

The English Messi? Surprised with those stats he seems to get a lot of praise.

Tbh the stats are misleading and I agree with the above poster, he is more an assist the assister player

gimli2112

Yeah I missed that post. I don't watch Arsenal enough to have an opinion on him.

Iused2likebusts

Liverpool

astradave wrote: »

Since he made his debut, including his time with Bournemouth and Bolton he has played 228 games in total and has 15 goals and 31 assists

The stats I quoted were for his PL career as I stated in the OP. He has scored a few goals in Europe and domestic cup comps aswell.

Iused2likebusts

Liverpool

DeanAustin wrote: »

You can't judge a player just on stats. Wilshere is more in the Modric mould which means he won't score many goals (their respective goal tallies for their current clubs are not too dissimilar) or get many assists. But he links play together brilliantly.

I'm a Spurs fan and I can't stand Wilshere for obvious reasons but he's an excellent player and the type of player that we need more of in this country and that England also need.

Trust me I wouldn't be relying on stats in my assessment of a player. Dembele my favourite midfielder in the PL wouldn't have any sort of decent stats. However he impacts the game both offensively and defensively. Wilshires problem is where do you play him. He gets overrun when he plays deeper and he has poor end product when he plays further forward. I'm not saying he is a poor player as he does have good traits but what has he done in his career to get the praise he has done. He did little or nothing on loan at Bournemouth and is now back getting a regular game at arsenal only as they are as poor as they have ever been in recent memory. Even today there is an article in the paper praising Wilshire and slaughtering Ozil. Saying he is the best midfielder England have. When he has a good game the media go way OTT in their praise for him.

DeanAustin

Man City

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Trust me I wouldn't be relying on stats in my assessment of a player. Dembele my favourite midfielder in the PL wouldn't have any sort of decent stats. However he impacts the game both offensively and defensively. Wilshires problem is where do you play him. He gets overrun when he plays deeper and he has poor end product when he plays further forward. I'm not saying he is a poor player as he does have good traits but what has he done in his career to get the praise he has done. He did little or nothing on loan at Bournemouth and is now back getting a regular game at arsenal only as they are as poor as they have ever been in recent memory. Even today there is an article in the paper praising Wilshire and slaughtering Ozil. Saying he is the best midfielder England have. When he has a good game the media go way OTT in their praise for him.

I think sitting beside a good defensive midfielder is the best place to play Wilshere. Dembele is a great example of another player who has terrible stats if you're judging him on goals and assists but is a tremendous player between boxes.

Wilshere keeps the ball really well and he's always available for a pass. There should always be space in a team for a player like him. However, I can accept your opinion a little more reading the above rather than just saying "his stats are terrible."

irishman86

Everton

DeanAustin wrote: »

I think sitting beside a good defensive midfielder is the best place to play Wilshere. Dembele is a great example of another player who has terrible stats if you're judging him on goals and assists but is a tremendous player between boxes.

Wilshere keeps the ball really well and he's always available for a pass. There should always be space in a team for a player like him. However, I can accept your opinion a little more reading the above rather than just saying "his stats are terrible."

Jack is probably the best English midfielder. Put him in a continental team and everyone would be wowing about him
Hes the sort of player British/Irish people will always find a reason to dislike
I see him compared to Modric, i personally see more Verrati in him

Guy:Incognito

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Conte is right imo. Barring the weird Hazard positioning, trying to shut up shop against City is not embarrassing. Neville and Carragher are both rightly fawning over City every week, so surely it makes sense that a team in a bit of freefall, 5th in the league, would employ negative tactics.

Shutting up shop and playing for a draw is one thing, but they were losing.

Harry Palmr

For Chelsea to play the % is such a fashion is embarrassing - Conte seemed to think he was still in Serie A.

Anyway enough of that - on to the shock defeat of Utd by Palace

kevthegaff

irishman86 wrote:

Jack is probably the best English midfielder. Put him in a continental team and everyone would be wowing about him Hes the sort of player British/Irish people will always find a reason to dislike I see him compared to Modric, i personally see more Verrati in him

He had a chance to go abroad on loan in Italy, he went to Bournemouth instead..

beya2009

Pogba not having the best of games so far but there's a long way to go in this game. Does anyone else think Pogba has been harshly treated by Mourinho? I get tat dropping him after the spurs and newcastle defeats showed that anyone was at risk of being dropped if not doing the business on the field by ten why does it seem Lukaku gets a free ride? He's had some poor performances this season that's for sure and it's not like Mourinho doesn't have options in that position.

SEPT 23 1989

Liverpool

I would say Liverpool are sh1tting themselves watching this

Berserker

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I would say Liverpool are sh1tting themselves watching this

gimli2112

beya2009 wrote: »

Pogba not having the best of games so far but there's a long way to go in this game. Does anyone else think Pogba has been harshly treated by Mourinho? I get tat dropping him after the spurs and newcastle defeats showed that anyone was at risk of being dropped if not doing the business on the field by ten why does it seem Lukaku gets a free ride? He's had some poor performances this season that's for sure and it's not like Mourinho doesn't have options in that position.

Mourinho seems to have a habit of throwing players under a bus. Mata and Shaw spring to mind. Don't remember another manager specifically criticising individuals so often.

Mushy

gimli2112 wrote: »

beya2009 wrote: »

Pogba not having the best of games so far but there's a long way to go in this game. Does anyone else think Pogba has been harshly treated by Mourinho? I get tat dropping him after the spurs and newcastle defeats showed that anyone was at risk of being dropped if not doing the business on the field by ten why does it seem Lukaku gets a free ride? He's had some poor performances this season that's for sure and it's not like Mourinho doesn't have options in that position.

Mourinho seems to have a habit of throwing players under a bus. Mata and Shaw spring to mind. Don't remember another manager specifically criticising individuals so often.

Pogba deserves all the criticism he gets after today. Awful performance.