Removal of half day

super_furry

Civil Service wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the issue because I'm taking action where previously others haven't. I don't think a sacking without a prior warning in justified though and it's a course of action that would have significant repercussions, both from those above and below me.

As is, warning him now will either put an end to it or justify me going down the disciplinary route next time

So do that, give him a verbal warning. Not sure why everyone else has to be dragged into it.

Dravokivich

Civil Service wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the issue because I'm taking action where previously others haven't. I don't think a sacking without a prior warning in justified though and it's a course of action that would have significant repercussions, both from those above and below me.

As is, warning him now will either put an end to it or justify me going down the disciplinary route next time

You are taking the wrong action. As your action is not going to be about him, if you are enforcing something onto the entire team, that has nothing to do with the team.

I wasn't suggesting sacking him now. Eventually it may be required. You better off starting the disciplinary route now to support the need for it if it comes to it. Instead of delaying it, because it's going to take up a lot more of your time.

BetsyEllen

Surely taking away the half day from everyone will require more explanation to higher management than taking it away from one person for a while?

I'm really shocked that you would even consider doing this.
Why on earth would you take away something good from people that have done nothing wrong?

If this was me, I would just be having a very stern chat with the person in question, explaining that you are not taking it further as they would lose their job. But that you are majorly p'd off and their actions were completely unacceptable.
I would then tell them they won't be getting paid for the afternoon they were on site getting p!ssed OR that they will be required to 'volunteer' on the next half day for the afternoon and you'll find something for them to do.
That is their punishment and if anything like this happens again, you will take it further.

It's really mean to even consider taking away the half day for everyone and is not an adequate punishment for the person who has actually done wrong.
I'd be having a think on your management skills here, this is not good leadership.

Cork Lass

Civil Service wrote: »

I'm looking for some advice regarding a course of action I'm considering pursuing with the team I manage.

Monthly, immediately prior to a stock take, its traditional that my team get a paid half day. This isn't a contractual entitlement, nor is it on the rota or guaranteed anywhere. It's simply a practice that has been in place for a number of years, though it's not written into any employment contracts etc.

Recently following the half day, a member of my team was guilty of what could be construed as gross misconduct (I'm not going to elaborate). I turned a blind eye on the basis that had I raised the issue, the person in question would have been sacked.

My intention now is to cancel the next half day for everyone on the basis of this guy's actions being facilitated by the half day. The option of cancelling only for him isn't possible, as I'd then have to cite a reason and go down the disciplinary route. This on the other hand isn't so much a punishment but a loss of privilege

I'm looking for advice on pursuing this course of action, and the likely long term repercussions on morale etc. While the actions of the peraon in question should not merit sacking imo, my employer would have sacked him, hence why I let it go however I need to ensure this isn't repeated.

Would appreciate opinions on the course of action I'm pursuing

If it's the case that you need to come here to get advice on how to deal with this issue then possibly you are in a role which is above your capabilities. Your suggestion of punishing the whole team is beyond wrong.

weldoninhio

Civil Service wrote: »

Singling him for the worst jobs could lead to the accusation of bullying, hence I won't be doing that.

I'm thinking now that just a bollockin lg for him, and a reminder to all about the policy is the best route to take. Certainly I intend on making everyone aware that future breaches will be going down the disciplinary route

So you are worried about being called a bully, yet have no worries about people drinking on site?? What happens if someone gets hurt or injured while on the beer in work?? Do you think the higher ups will step in and say "we'll take the blame, we knew they were drinking"? or do you think you'd be taking the brunt of it?

I'd have him out the door asap, and the drinking on site would stop straight away. If people don't like it they can leave. If they are on a half day, why not hit a local bar??

southstar

If you punish the whole team you can guarantee that somewhere down the line there will be a kickback and this issue will have to be dragged out in the open.You'll then become a scapegoat for not reporting the matter and failing to take remedial action.Have a stern frank conversation with the guy and make him and other team members aware of of the nature of the privilege afforded to them.Do these guys have to stay on site for the whole day.The drinking is likely to cause further problems down the line whether it be an incident on site or afterwards.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Cork Lass wrote: »

If it's the case that you need to come here to get advice on how to deal with this issue then possibly you are in a role which is above your capabilities. Your suggestion of punishing the whole team is beyond wrong.

A person in a managerial position in the Civil Service, underqualified?! Well, I never.

LegacyUser

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Surely taking away the half day from everyone will require more explanation to higher management than taking it away from one person for a while?

I'm really shocked that you would even consider doing this.
Why on earth would you take away something good from people that have done nothing wrong?

If this was me, I would just be having a very stern chat with the person in question, explaining that you are not taking it further as they would lose their job. But that you are majorly p'd off and their actions were completely unacceptable.
I would then tell them they won't be getting paid for the afternoon they were on site getting p!ssed OR that they will be required to 'volunteer' on the next half day for the afternoon and you'll find something for them to do.
That is their punishment and if anything like this happens again, you will take it further.

It's really mean to even consider taking away the half day for everyone and is not an adequate punishment for the person who has actually done wrong.
I'd be having a think on your management skills here, this is not good leadership.

As above, this course wouldnt be an issue for management.

It's not a case of wanting to take away from others whom have done no wrong. It's a case of being left with little alternative.

As you mention, a stern chat was going to happen any way.

Regarding my management skills, the fact Im posting looking for advice on this particular course of action, something I have never done previously, suggests I am considering my own ability to manage

Bandana boy

Just start an investigation into the drinking and follow the procedures layed out in your job.
This way everything is above board , and he wil have ample opportunity to contest the decision and cite precedence

Zenify

pretty sure if it becomes standard practice you cannot take it away. I remember working in HR (a few weeks) and one of the cases was an employee was getting paid €18.50 instead of €8.50 per hour. worked out a lot of money before anyone realised (3yrs later). contract and everything said 8.50, company couldn't do a thing even had to keep paying her 18.50.

Graham

Zenify wrote: »

pretty sure if it becomes standard practice you cannot take it away.

I think you'd struggle to argue that half a day to get sh1tfaced at work had become one of your employment terms so should be retained.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Cork Lass wrote: »

If it's the case that you need to come here to get advice on how to deal with this issue then possibly you are in a role which is above your capabilities.
....

How is that constructive advise? As a manager, you do not magically know the correct course of action for every situation. In particular where there is an extraordinary situation as seems to be the case here.

This is a 'work problems' forum for a reason.

Edit: Also, it appears the OP cannot go to her own management for advise as they don't want to know.

seamus

Civil Service wrote: »

As would be the case in previous companies I worked for. There is an entirely different culture here however that I'm trying to change

This would seem like a good opportunity to nip the root cause of the issue and change the culture without actually making anyone unhappy.

That is, give them the half day but tell them they have to go offsite if they want to get pissed.

If "tradition" has involved management providing the booze, then stick a tab at the bar in the nearest pub.

pilly

I think OP that the bigger issue you have is people drinking on site. It's completely the companies fault that this happened if they allow this carry on.

That's the issue you need to deal with straight away. Take it up with higher management if you have to but it has to stop. It's not acceptable to say that it's okay unless someone gets lairy with the drink. They shouldn't be drinking on site, full stop.

BetsyEllen

Civil service wrote: »

As above, this course wouldnt be an issue for management.

It's not a case of wanting to take away from others whom have done no wrong. It's a case of being left with little alternative.

As you mention, a stern chat was going to happen any way.

Regarding my management skills, the fact Im posting looking for advice on this particular course of action, something I have never done previously, suggests I am considering my own ability to manage

I'm confused - you're said that you can't take away just one persons half day as you'd have to explain why and then the person in question would get sacked.
But now you're saying that this wouldn't be an issue for management.
If it's not, then why can't you just punish him accordingly?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Ashbx

Tell the entire team that the half days will continue but that everyone must vacate the site at 1pm (or whatever the time may be)! So if they want to go drinking, they can go to the local pub.

Pull him aside and tell him he is blessed to still have his job and if anything like this happens again, you will have to go to management above you and let them deal with it. Its a clear enough warning without throwing him in the sh*t!

Although, if you are so set on removing this tradition, I don't see why you are even giving him a chance. Nip it in the bud now if that's the way you want to continue!

Eric Cartman

Civil Service wrote: »

If I make it official, he gets sacked. It's not an breach that I can give an official warning for

You say that people usually go to the portakabin and get pissed for the other half of the day.

take this person aside, advise them that it was unacceptable, that next time you have 0 choice but to go down the full disciplinary route (which would lead to sacking) and advise (in a pretend friendly kind of way) that for the next 2-3 stock takes that they should perhaps take that half day off site rather than drinking in the portakabin just until this 'blows over' with higher ups.

Lady is a tramp

Just to clarify, is it tradition that the whole team get p*ssed together in the portakabin on these half days, or just this particular guy?

bee06

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Just to clarify, is it tradition that the whole team get p*ssed together in the portakabin on these half days, or just this particular guy?

I read it as it's grand for anyone to get pissed in the portacabin, just don't cause a scene when you are leaving which is what this guy did.

Seve OB

So I was on a half day recently (was great, we got paid and all for the full day) and before I left work a few of us hooked up in the portacabin and skulled a few tinnies. By the time I left for home I was micky monk and don't really remember what happened on the way out, but I have a feeling I might have made a bit of a show of myself...........:o

shaunr68

Eric Cartman wrote: »

You say that people usually go to the portakabin and get pissed for the other half of the day.

take this person aside, advise them that it was unacceptable, that next time you have 0 choice but to go down the full disciplinary route (which would lead to sacking) and advise (in a pretend friendly kind of way) that for the next 2-3 stock takes that they should perhaps take that half day off site rather than drinking in the portakabin just until this 'blows over' with higher ups.

I was just going to post along these lines. Excellent advice.

Despite the OP's username I find it hard to believe that this sort of behaviour would be acceptable in the Civil Service. I served a sentence of 28 years in the Civil Service, albeit in the UK, and alcohol was strictly off limits on official premises, more so in recent years when even the annual office Christmas party came to be frowned upon and everybody went to the pub instead.

NinetyTwoTeam

Ffs I can't even get a job and lads are getting paid to get loaded and their bosses are afraid of them. Begrudgery level rising...

Seriously though you should put a stop to ALL drinking on site, let them keep the half day off but they have to go elsewhere. If you willingly allow them to drink at work, obviously you will end up with drunk employees who will be more likely to misbehave, so this was really inevitable.

People who don't know their limits or tend to act the maggot when drunk, tend to repeat that behaviour. So I would at least bar this guy from Pub Portacabin.

Sunny Disposition

Next time there's a job coming up will you send me a PM?

Richie71

Ashbx wrote:

Tell the entire team that the half days will continue but that everyone must vacate the site at 1pm (or whatever the time may be)! So if they want to go drinking, they can go to the local pub.

Ashbx wrote:

Although, if you are so set on removing this tradition, I don't see why you are even giving him a chance. Nip it in the bud now if that's the way you want to continue!

Ashbx wrote:

Pull him aside and tell him he is blessed to still have his job and if anything like this happens again, you will have to go to management above you and let them deal with it. Its a clear enough warning without throwing him in the sh*t!

For me, this is the only course of action open to you. Anything else and you are endorsing the on-site drinking and it could come back to haunt you.

pilly

shaunr68 wrote: »

I was just going to post along these lines. Excellent advice.

Despite the OP's username I find it hard to believe that this sort of behaviour would be acceptable in the Civil Service. I served a sentence of 28 years in the Civil Service, albeit in the UK, and alcohol was strictly off limits on official premises, more so in recent years when even the annual office Christmas party came to be frowned upon and everybody went to the pub instead.

You're talking about a civil service here though that still get time off to "cash cheques" on a Friday!! Different kettle of fish in Ireland. Drinking is not frowned upon as much as in the UK.

Wabbit Ears

Ignoring any of the hows and whys of this individuals actions and focussing on the removal of the half day.

You're talking blue murder mutiny if you do that.

You cant just undo established practices and ways of working. If its been happeing for years its as good as written in the contracts. To even attempt what you are saying would bring down the wrath of every single employee inside and outside of your team and probably management all the way up to the top.

My god, I remember when a fesh faced Head of department where I work decided that, because most people took holidays at christmas anyway, that it would be a good idea to send a mail saying that, bar a skeleton crew, everyone had to use a number of days annual leave over christmas...Absolute chaos ensued. Unions were called, HR Was dragged into it, the CEO had to apologise to everyone.

Moral of the story Dont fcuk with peoples perks/leave or you're gonna have a bad time.

Big Nasty

Eric Cartman wrote: »

You say that people usually go to the portakabin and get pissed for the other half of the day.

take this person aside, advise them that it was unacceptable, that next time you have 0 choice but to go down the full disciplinary route (which would lead to sacking) and advise (in a pretend friendly kind of way) that for the next 2-3 stock takes that they should perhaps take that half day off site rather than drinking in the portakabin just until this 'blows over' with higher ups.

Bag of cans, be grand! :pac:

tayto lover

Just close down the portacabin. Job done. No more drinking on site.
No need for any other action.

Cork Lass

Harrison Numerous Seeker wrote: »

How is that constructive advise? As a manager, you do not magically know the correct course of action for every situation. In particular where there is an extraordinary situation as seems to be the case here.

This is a 'work problems' forum for a reason.

Edit: Also, it appears the OP cannot go to her own management for advise as they don't want to know.

Perhaps that may be the case but surely anyone would know that you simply cannot punish a whole team for the behaviour of one individual. That's pretty basic knowledge. Also a manager should be aware of Custom and Practice and that they cannot sImply decide to take away a half day. This persons lack of knowledge is worrisome considering the position they hold.

Graham

Cork Lass wrote: »

Perhaps that may be the case but surely anyone would know that you simply cannot punish a whole team for the behaviour of one individual. That's pretty basic knowledge. Also a manager should be aware of Custom and Practice and that they cannot sImply decide to take away a half day. This persons lack of knowledge is worrisome considering the position they hold.

If something comes to light that could be considered a danger to the employees or a risk to the organisation of course it could be taken away.

Maybe you could argue the case if it were a half days holiday but good luck trying to convince someone that an afternoon on the lash at work is somehow protected.