The trouble with CI

Jack Joll

I've been racing in Ireland quite awhile now and generally very happy with my seasons, I've been in a crash or two but lately had more than my fair share of luck!
It's interesting reading all the resent posts with regards to alot of crashing of late, not only in the A4's but throughout all categories. I myself have had a recent crash and my season is now over before it really began.
I dont think anyone in general is to blame, but my gripe is Cycling Ireland! There very structure isnt set up to promote, grow or encourage racing in Ireland. I have decided to note quite a few observations I have made and see what ye think or can add to the conversation! We'll start with the recent crashes.
1. There are numerous theories of longer races, capping the fields, making the finishes harder. This is all good and well but at 1769 A4's & 847 A3's, there's going to be alot of lads sitting at home every week with no racing in the legs! Cycling Ireland need to do more to assist clubs to run races, a Road Commission was set-up last year and what good did they do? Example all Connacht Races cancelled bar 2 or 3 that are now all on the same week!
2. What does your licence fee cover? Ever thought of that! Well it doesn't cover you for bike damage thats for sure! Insure your bike ya through another independant company who'll take your leg every year for payment. 95% of riders licenced with CI are working men & women, who foolishly buy the best bikes on the market, but are expected to return to work on Mondays. Licence fees in the UK are £25!!
3. More now needs to be done on cyclist safety & education, when I got into racing, and its not that long ago! We had facilities like reliability trials, provincial league races and club races to hon your skills. But now all this seems to be gone and as soon as the season starts in Feb its hammer and tongs until the Ras! Everything seems to be centred around the Ras, all the clubs are trying to get their race on before the 3rd week in May as they know all the top riders will likely be kicking the feet up come June & July.
The provincial league races all died because riders would rather race an open race of a weekend in the search of CI points than compete in what was easily some of the toughest races I've competed in.

I could go on all night! But there some of my opinions on the matter, there only opinions but I think It's time Cycling Ireland stood up and took notice and came out of the dark ages and listened to the riders for once.

StevieGriff

Have begun to wonder about the organisation as a whole recently. Took weeks for my license to show up, days of ringing them with no answer to finally getting through to someone and getting told "ah yeah, sorry, been meaning to send those out"
Recently did some racing in the UK and was blown away at the efficiency and ease of it all, big difference over there is a heavy reliance on volunteers who are trained by British Cycling. The British system of having Cat 1,2,3 and then 3/4 races seemed to work brilliantly too.

Sidenote: The new app is an absolute joke. Hope CI didn't pay more than 100 quid for it.

Beasty

Jack Joll wrote: »

I could go on all night! But there some of my opinions on the matter, there only opinions but I think It's time Cycling Ireland stood up and took notice and came out of the dark ages and listened to the riders for once.

You are one rider expressing your views. Others may have similar views but equally some may have differing views.

Ultimately CI is a federation of clubs, with those clubs having the power to change things (within the parameters established by the likes of the UCI, the relevant authorities and indeed the relevant law)

If you feel dissatisfied you can approach CI directly, or ask your club to do so. You can try and get your club to make representations at the CI AGM. You can put yourself or others forward to help run the organisation. A discussion here may help gauge support for your own views but will not actually change anything (even if the challenge to McQuaid was largely organised through links forged within this forum). The members are ultimately (through their clubs) in a position to do that.

buffalo

Jack Joll wrote: »

95% of riders licenced with CI are working men & women, who foolishly buy the best bikes on the market, but are expected to return to work on Mondays.

What does this mean?

Jack Joll

What do you think it means?? It means that the majority of CI members are not privileged to be cycling for a living, have bikes sponsored to them and have to return to a day job following whatever outcome of a weekend race. If something isn't done to look after what is the "bread & butter" of CI in terms of revenue why should these people bother if you are unfortunate to hit the deck through your own fault or in particular someone elses fault, (3rd party) you are left to fend for yourself.
I'm certainly contemplating never racing again after a spat of bad luck, and I never thought I'd say that, as cycling was my life.....for quite awhile!

Weepsie

The UK has about 15 times the amount of people there. Economies of scale kick in. British Cycling has c. 125 k members and loads of corporate partners too.

If people want to buy the most expensive bike knowing that they risk damaging it, that's on them. CI are not forcing people to go out and buy Dura Ace everything.

Chips Lovell

Who is Cycling Ireland? As Beasty said it's a federation of clubs. Aside from a handful of paid staff, CI is made up of you, me, and lots of other ordinary cyclists. The vast majority of work is done by people volunteering their time.

People need to realise that they are part of Cycling Ireland, not a customer of it, and if they want something to change, it's up to them to get the ball rolling and do it themselves.

Want more late season races? Then organise some.

Unhappy about how the budget is being spent? Then go through the numbers and put forward a motion at the AGM.

Want more training and instruction for novice racers? Then organise it.

CramCycle

Jack Joll wrote: »

I could go on all night! But there some of my opinions on the matter, there only opinions but I think It's time Cycling Ireland stood up and took notice and came out of the dark ages and listened to the riders for once.

Maybe it is time you stood up and said something to Cycling Ireland? maybe at the AGM or make representations to the road commission.

Point 1. I agree, the barring of the races in connacht was idiotic beyond belief and could not possibly have been justified. Bring it up to the road commission as well as contact the club affected directly to say that your club will support and representations they make at the AGM to rectify this. Maybe draft a motion that will cut such behaviour out in future.

Point 2. It covers the important things, i.e. you and third party. No one makes anyone buy a 7grand bike and if you do not realise the risk to the bike when you get out for a race, then maybe it is not for you. to suggest CI insurance should cover it, to me, seems ludicrous and unworkable.

Point 3. Agree but unless someone puts together a plan, formulates it into a workable solution and then gathers volunteers to implement it, it will not happen. Maybe draft one, place it here and people can comment on the workability so as to help you refine it.

Trojan

Interesting to see a racing cyclist say that CI doesn't represent them, because from what I can see CI doesn't give a damn about non-racing cyclists.

So who does it actually represent? Clubs but not individuals?

JK.BMC

A version of this discussion has been going on for years so it is no surprise to hear the OP take issue with CI.
I look at it differently - I prefer not to depend on unreliable people so instead of throwing my hands in the air about CI, I just go ahead and do things anyway i.e. I don't need CI to organize coaching/skills in the club or organize races or club events: my club and it's volunteers do all this anyway. Structural issues can only be changed at AGMs so we make proposals and attend these AGMs and work it that way. CI is there to look after important stuff like insurance and licences and as far as I know from the club secretary, that side of things is fairly efficient now compared to previous years.
Yes there can be frustration in this country when it comes to national governing bodies and the "suits" at the top tables (in fairness, think of the carry-on in the Olympics, the boxing, swimming, the FAI and the rules/regulations of the GAA for instance) You realize that the CI top table isn't really populated by people on the take, making millions and living the high life or anything like it. Not to my knowledge anyway!
You just have to accept that the way forward out of the issues outlined is to become self-reliant and pro-active. The very best races in the calendar are nearly all organised by a small core of dedicated volunteers - the national championship road races are a good example. CI appear to just give it the necessary accreditation and go ahead. That is the way it is. It might not sound great but complaining solves very little.

Jack Joll

I seem to have got off on the wrong footing in relation to point 2 as above, I'm not advocating a bike of any value should be covered by the regular CI Licence, my bike is far from €7k mentioned above and has been through plenty of wars. More the physical implications of a rider whom has been put at a loss through actions of another. Take for example a rider over the white line pushing his way into the bunch out of the way of an oncoming vehicle! The bunch is not at fault, the rider over the white line is! But say as a result of his actions it causes a crash within the bunch, assistance from Cycling Ireland tiny and not worth the hassle in a lot of instances. I have experienced this and cover is very limited and both occasions I didn't bother filling in the forms, due in turn to the level of scrutiny the the insurance company was going to put me under.

Weepsie

It's not CI's fault if a couple of people are being eejits and causing crashes. It should never be on them to cover the losses of propery. Personal Injury is covered, and CI shouldn't go above and beyond just because you think it's a hassle to fill out forms.

Insurance is like that. They will investigate.

CramCycle

Trojan wrote: »

So who does it actually represent? Clubs but not individuals?

Pretty much, I suspect this is changing over time, but by it's own rules, it is a federation of clubs.

Jack Joll wrote: »

I seem to have got off on the wrong footing in relation to point 2 as above, I'm not advocating a bike of any value should be covered by the regular CI Licence, my bike is far from ?7k mentioned above and has been through plenty of wars. More the physical implications of a rider whom has been put at a loss through actions of another. Take for example a rider over the white line pushing his way into the bunch out of the way of an oncoming vehicle! The bunch is not at fault, the rider over the white line is! But say as a result of his actions it causes a crash within the bunch, assistance from Cycling Ireland tiny and not worth the hassle in a lot of instances. I have experienced this and cover is very limited and both occasions I didn't bother filling in the forms, due in turn to the level of scrutiny the the insurance company was going to put me under.

My understanding is that no claim to CI has been turned down over the years (stated at an AGM 4 years ago IIRC), this may have changed but I found the system relatively painless when helping a clubmate fill out the forms. the excess was a bit much but that was that.

Beasty

Just to be clear - CI does not make a profit. It ploughs all its money into cycling (even if some may disagree with how it is distributed). Increased insurance cover will increase subscriptions. They have already taken action to limit cover because of the ever increasing level of claims. They cover the important things - injury, loss of earnings and the like. If we cannot afford to lose our bike we really should be reconsidering racing as to provide cover there would simply increase the costs of everyone for the benefit of a few

if in doubt

There’s still plenty of club, county and provincial leagues being run almost year round. Not sure what the point is there unless you want the date of Rás to be changed to later in the year? It’s like people complaining about the racing season finishing too early yet few clubs apply to host races from August onwards – should CI or the road commission reject events applied for earlier in the year and almost force clubs to hold them later on?

As was pointed out very well (by a poster on here) at the AGM last year, ideas like more coaching, more support for events and more activity from commissions is great in theory but the problem is it’s the same people putting their hands up to volunteer for these positions each time. There’s only so much time they can give, especially when they get little in the way of thanks for it and end up seeing / hearing people complain about it being the same few people each time anyways.

If new people want to get involved I’m sure they’d be more than welcome. The road commission is made up of guys already heavily involved in other areas, nobody seemed to want to put themselves forward for the leisure commission and only 2 new people were put forward for the board. So why do people expect change to happen?

Weepsie wrote: »

The UK has about 15 times the amount of people there. Economies of scale kick in. British Cycling has c. 125 k members and loads of corporate partners too.

If people want to buy the most expensive bike knowing that they risk damaging it, that's on them. CI are not forcing people to go out and buy Dura Ace everything.

Just on the British Cycling licence price and the insurance issue. The £25 figure is for their lowest race licence category (Bronze), it’s only a provisional racing licence and doesn’t include any insurance; personal or third party. The CI cover mightn’t be great but it’s better than nothing.

wav1

if in doubt wrote: »

There’s still plenty of club, county and provincial leagues being run almost year round. Not sure what the point is there unless you want the date of Rás to be changed to later in the year? It’s like people complaining about the racing season finishing too early yet few clubs apply to host races from August onwards – should CI or the road commission reject events applied for earlier in the year and almost force clubs to hold them later on?

As was pointed out very well (by a poster on here) at the AGM last year, ideas like more coaching, more support for events and more activity from commissions is great in theory but the problem is it’s the same people putting their hands up to volunteer for these positions each time. There’s only so much time they can give, especially when they get little in the way of thanks for it and end up seeing / hearing people complain about it being the same few people each time anyways.

If new people want to get involved I’m sure they’d be more than welcome. The road commission is made up of guys already heavily involved in other areas, nobody seemed to want to put themselves forward for the leisure commission and only 2 new people were put forward for the board. So why do people expect change to happen?



Just on the British Cycling licence price and the insurance issue. The £25 figure is for their lowest race licence category (Bronze), it’s only a provisional racing licence and doesn’t include any insurance; personal or third party. The CI cover mightn’t be great but it’s better than nothing.

Lots of common sense and the truth in this post,and if you read the content of this post,and compare it to the ''what are CI doing for us''type of stuff in the OP,its little wonder that less and less people VOLUNTEER for anything.
Also for the benefit of the OP the Road Commission had nothing do do[or could have nothing to do]with the problem that caused the Connaght problems.It was all down to the wording of a technical regulation that a race promoter [not in Connaght] used to their advantage..

Lusk_Doyle

Weepsie wrote: »

It's not CI's fault if a couple of people are being eejits and causing crashes. It should never be on them to cover the losses of propery. Personal Injury is covered, and CI shouldn't go above and beyond just because you think it's a hassle to fill out forms.

Insurance is like that. They will investigate.

Indeed. And if form filling or answering questions poses a problem for you blaming CI is simply not right. Being afraid of scrutiny from an insurer if you did nothing wrong seems odd.

Btw - Wav1 if you need any advice re the bikes and insurance just let me know. I'd be happy to help.

Inquitus

I incurred about 400 euro of medical costs after crashing at the Wexford 2 day, and found the insurance to be pretty much worthless in terms of the paperwork required, the excesses etc., I didn't bother claiming in the end. I think it's only really of much use if you incur really significant medical costs and/or loss of earnings.

magicbastarder

so what's the annual budget anyway? how much do they make from subs?

Beasty

magicbastarder wrote: »

so what's the annual budget anyway? how much do they make from subs?

Don't have it to hand but the annual accounts are included in the AGM pack which is distributed around October each year. They also include detailed income and expenditure accounts so it's all very transparent

ednwireland

magicbastarder wrote: »

so what's the annual budget anyway? how much do they make from subs?

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/about/key-documents2

Agm pack there

I was one of the few that voted against the club competition license increase. Only because the reasoning seemed to be there were more club league races than open races and sure you all have expensive bikes
__________________

cornet

Jack Joll wrote: »

I've been racing in Ireland quite awhile now and generally very happy with my seasons, I've been in a crash or two but lately had more than my fair share of luck!
It's interesting reading all the resent posts with regards to alot of crashing of late, not only in the A4's but throughout all categories. I myself have had a recent crash and my season is now over before it really began.
I dont think anyone in general is to blame, but my gripe is Cycling Ireland! There very structure isnt set up to promote, grow or encourage racing in Ireland. I have decided to note quite a few observations I have made and see what ye think or can add to the conversation! We'll start with the recent crashes.
1. There are numerous theories of longer races, capping the fields, making the finishes harder. This is all good and well but at 1769 A4's & 847 A3's, there's going to be alot of lads sitting at home every week with no racing in the legs! Cycling Ireland need to do more to assist clubs to run races, a Road Commission was set-up last year and what good did they do? Example all Connacht Races cancelled bar 2 or 3 that are now all on the same week!

CI provide insurance for the event (free) and any venues used for a small fee (€50).
They provide the Commissaires.
They provide the finish line camera for a small fee.
Some provinces provide race radios and a car for a small fee.
What exactly do you want them to do?

RobFowl

Who is Cycling Ireland?

CI is you and I, it is the sum of its parts and is what we all put into it.

Do like the wav and volunteer...