Wheelchairs in the cycle lane

check_six

magicbastarder wrote: »

'city with inadequate bike parking facilities starts to seize bikes not parked in dedicated bike parking facilities' shocker.

This is just a good example of using the carrot and not the stick. A carrot the size of a baseball bat with nails through it and a lead weight in the tip, but a carrot none the less.

flutered

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think they are allowed to use the cycle lanes already. At least electric wheelchairs:
http://irishcycle.com/2017/06/17/hold-vote-to-allow-visual-impaired-people-to-use-dublins-cycle-lanes-says-lord-mayor/


In the Netherlands, the cycle infrastructure is a valuable resource for people in mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs. But they have very good, properly networked infrastructure. I don't think many people would begrudge them the use here, but since it's rubbish, and sometimes dangerous rubbish, I'm not sure I'd encourage them to use it.

The bit about people with sight impairment using them is just bizarre.

in the netherlands you can get an attachment which clips on to the front of an ordinary basic wheelchair, this handlebar tingimig reaches a speed of 20k per hour, i think it has the ability to travel 20k also

flutered

HivemindXX wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that wheelchairs can already use the cycle lanes. Perhaps this is just motorised ones. Either way I don't think it's much of a safety issue, nobody should be going around the corner so fast that they couldn't see an obstruction in time to stop. I'm hard pressed to think of an example where this might be an issue, most corners that are so sharp that you can't see around them require you to slow down a lot anyway. There really aren't that many people in wheelchairs using the footpaths in my experience anyway. Perhaps this is an indictment of how difficult it is for wheelchair users to get around. Either way if every wheelchair user I've ever seen on the footpath had been on the cycle path instead it would have made almost no difference to me.

The insane thing about Carr's comment is that he is not just talking about wheelchairs. He specifically mentioned people with sight disabilities and mobility issues which surely covers people on crutches and those who require walking sticks as well.

Anyone with any intelligence whatsoever should be able to see many problems with this idea but to enumerate a few:-

+ Cycle lanes on the footpath are just as full of crap as the pedestrian part.

+ Cycle lanes randomly begin and end, sometimes dumping the users back on to a busy road. This is not ideal for a 90 year old with a walking frame.

+ How is someone who is visually impaired to know when the road narrows and the painted on cycle lane disappears leaving them walking on the side of the road.

+ In the extremely frequent event that a car has parked up on the footpath partially blocking that and completely blocking the cycle lane what is a person with a disability to do? They can either climb back up on to the pavement (with some difficulty presumably) and pass the car on the inside (these people usually don't block the entire footpath), or they can do like cyclists have to and merge in to traffic and pass the obstruction in the car lane. Would a slow moving person with mobility issues or a blind person be willing or capable of doing this?

Here's a less insanely stupid idea... If you actually care about people with disabilities using the footpaths then reduce the amount of crap on the footpaths as much as possible and fine people who block them with their cars.

Based on Carr's previous statements I doubt he really wants to help people with disabilities, he just thinks this is a good opportunity to try and paint cyclists as being selfish gits who don't support the disabled. Unfortunately for him I doubt any disabled person thinks this is a good idea and hopefully all he's managed to do is make a fool of himself to a wider audience.

my powered chair cannot climb over a kerb, the same applys to a mobility scooter, this is why there are dips on the kerb

rubadub

loyatemu wrote: »

is there currently a law that says they're not allowed use cycle-paths? is there even a law that says you can't walk/jog on a cycle-path?

I always wondered this. I was looking up laws ages ago and it seemed pedestrians were allowed use cycleways, not sure about cycletracks. Then another law I saw recently seemed to say local councils could say a cycletrack is for mixed use.

On the N11 some annoy me, they would not be so bad but some genius decided to but rapidly growing plants/trees on the sides so people walking are forced out onto the path. They do have signs with people & bikes indicating it is shared.

see the sign here https://goo.gl/maps/NaYHf1KBrWJ2

that sign is repeated again, and then the next one is this with no sharing shown
https://goo.gl/maps/yidFpWGbWsQ2

So if pedestrians are not allowed use it after that point I am not sure where they are expected to go.

A bit further up it shows another sign, this has a line between the pedestirans and bikes, possibly indicating they are meant to use the path.
https://goo.gl/maps/qS5cac4evp82

The pedestrians are shown on the wrong side of the line, in the cycletrack, and the pedestrians do seem to stick to that instruction alright!

If they are allowed use them all the time I wish they would change the name of all cycletracks/cycleways to "shared footpath" or similar, since then it would make the much loved phrase "I can't understand why they were not using the perfectly good cycle lane" sound a bit less clueless.

If they are not allowed use them I have suggested it would be more benficial to have images of pedestrians with an X through them, rather than a image of a bike painted on them.

flutered

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I'd be more pissed off about his comments on removing bicycles locked to poles around Dublin - try providing sufficient bike parking spaces before you start doing sh*t like that. The guy is a top notch gobshi*te, really, how do we end up with twats like this in positions of power?? (thankfully not too much power but all the same).

they are in positions of power because they sing out of the same hym sheet as the folks who put them in such positions

HivemindXX

flutered wrote: »

my powered chair cannot climb over a kerb, the same applys to a mobility scooter, this is why there are dips on the kerb

Luckily that idea turns out to be only a hoax. I don't really see what the purpose of this hoax was. Supposedly it was to get people thinking but why Carr would want people thinking he can't tell when something is a damn fool idea is what I don't understand.

Mental Mickey

Fian wrote: »

There is a new proposal that wheelchairs be permitted to use the cycle lanes rather than the footpaths. This is apparently because of footpaths being blocked and more difficult to navigate.

I am somewhat conflicted about this - certainly couldn't begrudge a wheelchair user using the cycle lane if it makes getting around easier for them but i am worried about the safety issue - Bicycles coming around a corner at speed to find a wheelchair in the cycle lane in front of them which might not end well for either party.

Is anyone aware of a similar scheme operating elsewhere in the world and how it works out?

That's madness!!?? Motorists need to be educated NOT to block footpaths

tomasrojo

HivemindXX wrote: »

Luckily that idea turns out to be only a hoax. I don't really see what the purpose of this hoax was. Supposedly it was to get people thinking but why Carr would want people thinking he can't tell when something is a damn fool idea is what I don't understand.

It seems to have been along the lines of: "Cyclists! How would you like if people with disabilities encroached on your space! Think about it!"

Of course, being weirdly and negatively obsessed with bikes, he's tried to frame the whole campaign as an anti-bike thing.

I mean, look at how he segues from general obstacles to bikes in an instant, and then listen to the tone of this (from the Journal article):

But if something is hazardous, or creating a hazard, it will be gone, your bike will be gone. And then people will get the message pretty quickly.

We have the power to do it, we have the power to cut that lock open and dump that bike. It will be treated the same as a piece of rubbish that’s getting in the way.

Just so weird.

ganmo

have any of yas ever had to walk around town with someone in a wheelchair? It's a nightmare! This stunt was not an anti bike thing it was to raise awareness of the problems that wheelchair users encounter every day!

HivemindXX

ganmo wrote: »

have any of yas ever had to walk around town with someone in a wheelchair? It's a nightmare! This stunt was not an anti bike thing it was to raise awareness of the problems that wheelchair users encounter every day!

I assume you have done so. I'm genuinely interested in knowing your opinion of the biggest issues and what should be done to fix them. I have pushed someone in a wheelchair and it was very hard work, but it was a very long time ago.

Here's my guess as to a list of issues in no particular order.

+ Cars or delivery vehicles parked up on the footpath
+ Cars or delivery vehicles blocking the footpath dishing
+ Junctions with crossings on some roads only
+ Large numbers of poles, utility boxes and other obstructions belonging to the council
+ Bicycles locked to said poles
+ Overgrown hedges
+ Poorly maintained pavement (eg: broken by tree roots)
+ Crossings with no dishing
+ Sandwich boards
+ Rubbish bins

What would you say were the top three issues making life difficult for people with mobility issues, in wheelchairs or otherwise if you wish? If you could do three things to make life better for people with disabilities (in the context of this) what would you like to do?

The reason people here are reacting badly to Carr's statements is that he seems to be focusing very much on bicycles as the problem. I don't think inconsiderately parked bicycles are a significant problem compared to some of the others, although certainly I have seen examples of bad behaviour and I would have no complaint if they were removed. Carr has made plenty of anti-cycling statements in the past and I'm personally worried that this will be an excuse to cut locks and dump bicycles that aren't actually causing an obstruction at all.

Annie get your Run

HivemindXX wrote: »

The reason people here are reacting badly to Carr's statements is that he seems to be focusing very much on bicycles as the problem. I don't think inconsiderately parked bicycles are a significant problem compared to some of the others, although certainly I have seen examples of bad behaviour and I would have no complaint if they were removed. Carr has made plenty of anti-cycling statements in the past and I'm personally worried that this will be an excuse to cut locks and dump bicycles that aren't actually causing an obstruction at all.

Also, it's within his councils control to solve that particular problem by providing actual bike parking, and lots of it, around the city. Without this people have no choice but to lock their bikes to poles. The problem would be pretty much eradicated instantly with sufficient bike parking and therefore not a cyclist caused issue but rather a DCC caused issue. Of course Carr is to stupid to realise this.

magicbastarder

it's the same **** as the proposal that cyclists will be forced to use cycle lanes; don't address the reasons why they don't use, instead penalise them into using them.

tomasrojo

ganmo wrote: »

have any of yas ever had to walk around town with someone in a wheelchair? It's a nightmare! This stunt was not an anti bike thing it was to raise awareness of the problems that wheelchair users encounter every day!

I bet it is a nightmare. I had to wheel a buggy and then a double buggy around Dublin city centre and it was torture. I don't know whether the particular obstacles are precisely the same (I assume it was easier for me to get off the footpath and use the road than a wheelchair user, for starters), but I don't recall parked bicycles figuring largely. I do remember footpaths being impassable all the time because cars had put two wheels up on them. Or four, some of the time

If I were involved in this campaign, I'd be pretty ticked off that Carr has undermined it. Look at that journal.ie article. You'd swear parked bicycles is the single largest impediment to progress. It mentions other ones in passing, but the real passion in the article is against bikes.

Now I think about it, there is a certain logic to Mayor Carr fronting a campaign about impediments to progress ...

ganmo

I wouldn't like to talk for wheelchair users(they're well able to do that themselves) but there was times I took the steps up into a shop and they took the 'friendly' ramp only to have to go down the ramp to shift a bike a bit that was locked to the railings. It's only a small thing for an able person to do but if they were by themselves they'd have to turn around and go home.

If the stunt makes ppl think how their actions might impact on wheelchair users it'll be a good thing

tomasrojo

ganmo wrote: »

I wouldn't like to talk for wheelchair users(they're well able to do that themselves) but there was times I took the steps up into a shop and they took the 'friendly' ramp only to have to go down the ramp to shift a bike a bit that was locked to the railings. It's only a small thing for an able person to do but if they were by themselves they'd have to turn around and go home.

Perfectly fair point. Well worth highlighting.

ganmo wrote: »

If the stunt makes ppl think how their actions might impact on wheelchair users it'll be a good thing

If the stunt makes people think not about their own actions but how cyclists are largely to blame, then it's a bad thing. I'm pretty sure that there was proper framing done for this campaign, highlighting a range of issues, and Carr just ran his mouth off with his own prejudices.

mr spuckler

funnily enough given that carr proudly opened the new cycleway / footpaths etc in clontarf recently, i've noticed that some of the new lamp posts are literally in the middle of the footpath, allowing (to my eye) insufficient space for a wheelchair to safely pass either side while remaining on the footpath!

now what to do about that obstacle, mr lord mayor sir?

Chuchote

Of course wheelchairs should be able to use cycle lanes, and are by law. As for the little Dutch cars, they're special cars for the disabled and decrepit, made in the Netherlands, and allowed to use bike lanes because only the disabled and very old can buy them.

Perhaps there should be a campaign highlighting particularly stupid placement of lampposts, road signs, etc in the middle of bike lanes.

Mental Mickey

Chuchote wrote: »

Of course wheelchairs should be able to use cycle lanes, and are by law. As for the little Dutch cars, they're special cars for the disabled and decrepit, made in the Netherlands, and allowed to use bike lanes because only the disabled and very old can buy them.

Perhaps there should be a campaign highlighting particularly stupid placement of lampposts, road signs, etc in the middle of bike lanes.

Decrepit? That's a horrible word to use!!!

cdaly_

Sounds correct to me...

Decrepit
dɪˈkrɛpɪt/
adjective
adjective: decrepit

• worn out or ruined because of age or neglect.
  "a row of decrepit houses"
  
• (of a person) elderly and infirm.

Mental Mickey

Calling a person "decrepit" is so old fashioned, similarly as offensive as "handicapped".

Just my two cents.

Chuchote

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Decrepit? That's a horrible word to use!!!

Heh, sorry, I use it of myself.

gctest50

tomasrojo wrote: »

It'll cost them a fair bit every time they meet a Fahgettaboudit too. ....

About 30 seconds ?

rubadub

gctest50 wrote: »

About 30 seconds ?

FFS-I hope you posting that as a joke?! or do you honestly think the average bike thief with a tool like that will go up to a NY lock on an actual bike and open it in 30 seconds?!, i.e. a lock that they have not been practicing for days or weeks on repeatedly on a steady table in a quiet room with no stress.

When I got my NY lock at first it took me longer than that to open it with the original key! same with someone else I know.

The only surprise there is that the bullshit video has only got 78 thumbs down vs 238 up. The comments say it all, though it should be obvious without them.

A video showing them going through a 18mm shackle with a grinder in twice or three times the time would be of FAR more concern than that complete and utter bullshit.

The youtube poster states "Currently Kryptonite locks offer no protection against lockpicking." this would be like some rubiks cube nutjob doing it in 6 seconds and saying "rubik's offer no challenge, too easy" :rolleyes:

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

dball wrote: »

they allow cars in the cycle lanes in Amsterdam, i was there a few weeks ago and I could not stop laughing - in fairness they are funny to look at !
But they were all over the place in the city

There's more power in a pint of milk. The big nuisance in Holland are the higher powered mopeds using the cycle lanes.

The idea proposed is dumb, it won't go ahead, please try again.

Lumen

rubadub wrote: »

FFS-I hope you posting that as a joke?! or do you honestly think the average bike thief with a tool like that will go up to a NY lock on an actual bike and open it in 30 seconds?!, i.e. a lock that they have not been practicing for days or weeks on repeatedly on a steady table in a quiet room with no stress.

When I got my NY lock at first it took me longer than that to open it with the original key! same with someone else I know.

The only surprise there is that the bullshit video has only got 78 thumbs down vs 238 up. The comments say it all, though it should be obvious without them.

A video showing them going through a 18mm shackle with a grinder in twice or three times the time would be of FAR more concern than that complete and utter bullshit.

The youtube poster states "Currently Kryptonite locks offer no protection against lockpicking." this would be like some rubiks cube nutjob doing it in 6 seconds and saying "rubik's offer no challenge, too easy" :rolleyes:

You seem unreasonably angry about this.

tomasrojo

Currently Kryptonite locks offer no protection against lockpicking.

Currently Recuerdos de la Alhambra offers no challenge to guitar players.

Fian

tomasrojo wrote: »

Currently Recuerdos de la Alhambra offers no challenge to guitar players.

But that took her over 5 minutes! The lock was picked in around 30 seconds! Therefore you are comparing apples and oranges!

buffalo

On another topic which intersects wheelchairs and bikes, this article caught my eye in the Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/pimp-my-ride-galway-sisters-win-award-for-colourful-wheelchair-idea-1.3034770

Two Galway sisters who came up with the idea of creating customised spoke guards for wheelchairs have won this year’s Accenture Leaders of Tomorrow competition.

My first thought was of course, "can I make a cheap disc wheel with these?" Seems wheelchair wheels are too small though.

It's a great initiative and the business seems to be doing well, which is fantastic. Also, their motto is brilliant:

“Winning this competition will allow us to further break down the stigmas surrounding wheelchair use and allow more users to express themselves. Our tagline is, ‘If you can’t stand up, stand out,” they said.

magicbastarder

i'm actually surprised it took that long to come up with the idea. i had a muddy fox pawprint disc on my mountain bike when i was about 13 or 14. it was vicious in a sidewind.

tomasrojo

Incidentally, this was a good podcast, here rendered as an article, about lock security in modern times:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/2015/04/15/a_history_of_lockpicking_from_99_percent_invisible_and_roman_mars.html

(There was a brief period with unpickable locks; nobody really tries to have truly unpickable locks anymore.)