Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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That a bit...ugly. She says the reason he gave was because of his ethnicity. You are suggesting it was his family's fault. Why do you presume to know more than her? Is that not very...glib and presumptuous?

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ScumLord

Glenster wrote: »

Doesn't everyone have a culture from 200-300 years ago though?

Um, sort of, not really, it depends. Ireland's culture was probably fairly static up until nationalism became a major force in Europe. The whole world of nations we live in now was invented and established by people a hundred years ago. The whole Irish national identity simply didn't exist to the same extent 200-300 years ago. We've been inventing a culture ever since we got independence. The modern Irish identity is probably no more than 50 years old.

I always think that Traveller culture from the old days is probably fairly close to what mainstream Irish culture was in the old days.

It doesn't seem to be, they were set apart for a while now, the only difference is the relationship has soured as they got pushed out of society. Settled people had links to family and friends who could find them other work when the world made their job redundant.

Travellers lost their connections to the rest of Ireland when they lost their role. They travelled to villages and provided services, when we no longer wanted their services we basically cut all ties with them and they had no larger community to reeducate them into different roles. I'm sure they played a big part in their own downfall by setting themselves apart but they wouldn't have ever had the same opportunities as other settled people.

Hammer89

Hammer89 wrote: »

although I wouldn't generalise

ok...

Hammer89 wrote: »

That's because they'd nick it.

Ah, ok.

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Absolutely not. Unless the parents were the cause of the problem. For example if a child was being bullied and didn't say anything to the parents, and committed suicide, I certainly would not blame the parents.

In the article she says that he said his ethnicity was like a disease. He hung himself 2 weeks afterwards. I am not sure why you are trying to introduce other issues, like suggesting her family was to blame, and introducing more criticisms based on stereotypes of travellers (travellers hate gay people, travellers wouldn't necessarily take a child for treatment etc.).

lawred2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That a bit...ugly. She says the reason he gave was because of his ethnicity. You are suggesting it was his family's fault. Why do you presume to know more than her? Is that not very...glib and presumptuous?

How would she be qualified to determine that?

OldNotWIse

end of the road wrote: »

no . the settled community just have to stop discriminating. we were able to do it for other minority groups, there is no excuse.

It's not discrimination when you are justifiably wary because of actual personal experience.

The race card is used too often in Ireland. There was a woman in my class in college who was a nasty piece of work. I never did anything to her but she constantly bad mouthed me because (in her opinion) I thought I was great and I "walked around with my boobs sticking out" (yes she actually said that) and when I called her on it one day she said, "you're such a racist why do you hate me?". I was like, "er I don't hate you because of your race, I hate you because you're a cúnt". But presumably every altercation she ever had with a white person would be, in her head, because the white person was a racist and not for any other reason and god forbid not for a reason other than skin colour.

Sephiroth_dude

I've had nothing but bad experiences whenever I've come into contact with Traveller's, I have no time for them.


The most famous traveller Jo Joyce made an appearance in pro evo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCtVZyuXnPI

Roger Hassenforder

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCtVZyuXnPI

Dafuq?

end of the road

benjamin d wrote: »

Ever wonder why we were "able to stop" discriminating against other minority groups?

It's been asked a few times why people don't discriminate against blacks or gays or whatever you're having yourself... maybe ask yourself why that is?

Why is there an almost universal mistrust of travellers in Ireland? Why ISN'T there the same attitude towards other minority groups?

Surely if all of these people are simply bigots as you believe, the same attitudes would be prevalent against other minorities?

i all ready know. the decent in society have made it toxic for people to spout bigotry unchallenged. one wouldn't get away with making the comments made about other groups unchallenged, hence people no longer do it for the most part.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It's not discrimination when you are justifiably wary because of actual personal experience.

it is . being wary is just an excuse used to discriminate against all travelers, because one can do it. funny how i and others can be wary of people yet not discriminate against whole groups of people.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

The race card is used too often in Ireland.

no it isn't.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

There was a woman in my class in college who was a nasty piece of work. I never did anything to her but she constantly bad mouthed me because (in her opinion) I thought I was great and I "walked around with my boobs sticking out" (yes she actually said that) and when I called her on it one day she said, "you're such a racist why do you hate me?". I was like, "er I don't hate you because of your race, I hate you because you're a cúnt". But presumably every altercation she ever had with a white person would be, in her head, because the white person was a racist and not for any other reason and god forbid not for a reason other than skin colour.

clearly she is a nut. you won't find me suggesting otherwise. but that's all your story proves, that there are nuts in this world.

lawred2

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

I've had nothing but bad experiences whenever I've come into contact with Traveller's, I have no time for them.


The most famous traveller Jo Joyce made an appearance in pro evo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCtVZyuXnPI

Wtf is that

Sephiroth_dude

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Dafuq?

lawred2 wrote: »

Wtf is that

You can edit pro evo and put your own custom players in it, this is the guy he put in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMV52MgACdM

Dr Crayfish

I can't really see how we will ever get along. They are basically organised crime families on a massive scale, and I'm pretty sure the Garda are afraid of them. They don't want to be part of Irish society, and seem to like playing the victim and blame us for everything and thrive in their siege mentality. I can live with that for the most part, but why do they have to destroy their surrounding areas too? I was driving up the R139 near the airport the other day, where they actually have nice little houses built for them, as well as caravans scattered around, and it's just disgusting. Living in their own filth and inflicting it on others. Have they zero pride in themselves, or just utter contempt for anyone else and their environment?

OldNotWIse

end of the road wrote: »

i all ready know. the decent in society have made it toxic for people to spout bigotry unchallenged. one wouldn't get away with making the comments made about other groups unchallenged, hence people no longer do it for the most part.



it is . being wary is just an excuse used to discriminate against all travelers, because one can do it. funny how i and others can be wary of people yet not discriminate against whole groups of people.



no it isn't.



clearly she is a nut. you won't find me suggesting otherwise. but that's all your story proves, that there are nuts in this world.

Yes it is.

I like this game where we just baldly contradict each other.

Your turn.

OldNotWIse

end of the road wrote: »

i all ready know. the decent in society have made it toxic for people to spout bigotry unchallenged. one wouldn't get away with making the comments made about other groups unchallenged, hence people no longer do it for the most part.



it is . being wary is just an excuse used to discriminate against all travelers, because one can do it. funny how i and others can be wary of people yet not discriminate against whole groups of people.



no it isn't.



clearly she is a nut. you won't find me suggesting otherwise. but that's all your story proves, that there are nuts in this world.

Being wary because you have had multiple negative experiences is a justifiable survival tactic. It doesn't just apply to minority groups.

I was assaulted on the luas (not by a traveler I hasten to add) and now I am wary when...guess what? Yes, when travelling on the luas.

It's not fúcking rocket science, and it's also not some kind of social or political statement.

OldNotWIse

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I can't really see how we will ever get along. They are basically organised crime families on a massive scale, and I'm pretty sure the Garda are afraid of them. They don't want to be part of Irish society, and seem to like playing the victim and blame us for everything and thrive in their siege mentality. I can live with that for the most part, but why do they have to destroy their surrounding areas too? I was driving up the R139 near the airport the other day, where they actually have nice little houses built for them, as well as caravans scattered around, and it's just disgusting. Living in their own filth and inflicting it on others. Have they zero pride in themselves, or just utter contempt for anyone else and their environment?

Not to mention the frequency of animal rights abuses - dog fighting , sulky racing, mangey mutts tied up on every site. But you know, you cant say that is wrong because then you'd be a racist.

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The author of the piece on the OP clearly outlines the issues they face, from when they are children, bigotry, intolerance and hatred, alienation and bullying. Let's not bury our head in the sand and refuse to accept that.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

The author of the piece on the OP clearly outlines the issues they face, from when they are children, bigotry, intolerance and hatred, alienation and bullying. Let's not bury our head in the sand and refuse to accept that.

That is one person's subjective opinion on travellers, their problems and the etiology of those problems. There are dozens of opposing opinions on this thread alone.

StinkyMunkey

I base my opinions on a group of people depending on my experiences with them, I'm still waiting to have a positive one with travellers, something I cannot say about any other group of people you care to label.

In my experience their reputation is thoroughly deserved.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That is one person's subjective opinion on travellers, their problems and the etiology of those problems. There are dozens of opposing opinions on this thread alone.

Um...obviously, it is her experience.

One hundred opinions from people who were not subjected to the treatment she received does not invalidate her experience.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Um...obviously, it is her experience.

One hundred opinions from people who were not subjected to the treatment she received does not invalidate her experience.

Indeed not. However, her subjective opinion does not invalidate the experience of one hundred people.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed not. However, her subjective opinion does not invalidate the experience of one hundred people.

But relegating it to an opinion piece is completely misguided.

If someone says "I was beaten up", it's not an opinion. It's recounting an experience. 100 people saying "oh no you weren't" doesn't invalidate that experience.

And similarly, if she says she was bullied or ostracised. If a person says they were bullied as a child, do you really dismiss it with a "well that's just your opinion, here are others who have no idea who you are or what you went through who say you weren't",

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

But relegating it to an opinion piece is completely misguided.

If someone says "I was beaten up", it's not an opinion. It's recounting an experience. 100 people saying "oh no you weren't" doesn't invalidate that experience.

And similarly, if she says she was bullied or ostracised. If a person says they were bullied as a child, do you really dismiss it with a "well that's just your opinion, here are others who have no idea who you are or what you went through who say you weren't",

I didn't say she wasn't ostracised so I don't know what point you're making.

Facts are indeed facts. However, the reasons for those facts are subjective. For example and using your own analogy, if I beat you up you could say that you were beaten up because you were a traveller. However, you may have neglected to mention that the reason you were beaten up was because you had attacked my elderly parents in their own home.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I didn't say she wasn't ostracised so I don't know what point you're making.

Facts are indeed facts. However, the reasons for those facts are subjective. For example and using your own analogy, if I beat you up you could say that you were beaten up because you were a traveller. However, you may have neglected to mention that the reason you were beaten up was because you had attacked my elderly parents in their own home.

Oh true. The may be a reason. That reason may be valid, like your elderly parent example, or abhorrent, say based on bigotry and intolerance.

And why do you think this 4 year old child was treated the way she was?

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh true. The may be a reason. That reason may be valid, like your elderly parent example, or abhorrent, say based on bigotry and intolerance.

And why do you think this 4 year old child was treated the way she was?

I don't know. It might have been to do with her behaviour or that of her family? Or it might have been prejudice? Where do you think this behaviour and prejudice comes from?

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't know. It might have been to do with her behaviour or that of her family? Or it might have been prejudice? Where do you think this behaviour and prejudice comes from?

A 4 year old child?

I think we all know why she was treated the way she was. Let's inject some reality into the matter. It was because she was a traveller. There is not one shred of evidence anywhere that it was as a result of the actions of a child, or her family.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

A 4 year old child?

I think we all know why she was treated the way she was. Let's inject some reality into the matter. It was because she was a traveller. There is not one shred of evidence anywhere that it was as a result of the actions of a child, or her family.

According to her opinion piece, there was no evidence. So it's down to those who are prejudiced to change. Hmmm. Do you think that prejudice based on personal experience is bias or wisdom?

As an aside, do you know any teachers who teach travellers?

5starpool

In a graveyard in small town West of Ireland recently I was struck by the number of massive headstones (or small marble palaces really) which were almost exclusively on traveller graves. I know many other graveyards are like that also. Where does all this money come from when most of them seem to be poverty stricken who need everything provided for them by the state?