Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

Gravelly

Gravelly wrote: »

Poor girl. I know how she feels, I was in a shop recently and they had a show on discussing men. I felt like everyone was looking at me. It was lousy.*






*The above may or may not be an apocryphal story designed to expose the pointlessness of another posters contribution.

Are men the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe, as the EU described travellers?

Widdershins

Gravelly wrote: »

Poor girl. I know how she feels, I was in a shop recently and they had a show on discussing men. I felt like everyone was looking at me. It was lousy.*






*The above may or may not be an apocryphal story designed to expose the pointlessness of another posters contribution.

The last sentence isn't necessary.

If you walked into a shop full of women, in a street in a town full of mostly women. If the callers were all talking about men as if they're the scum of the Earth. Then it might be a point.

Gravelly

Deleted User wrote: »

And...kinda...so what?

Do people who clip their hedges and wash their cars every Sunday matter more?

If my 4 year old daughter was coming home crying, and my wife was crying because of her treatment at the hands of others, I challenge any adult to decide they'd want to keep their environs neat and tidy so as not to upset those very same people.

This is brilliant. So travellers wreck their (taxpayer provided) accommodation as some kind of obscure, Gandhian act of protest to avenge the tears of their children?

Best reach I've ever seen to justify vandalism and idleness.

Gravelly

Deleted User wrote: »

Are men the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe, as the EU described travellers?

Not yet.

Gravelly

Widdershins wrote: »

The last sentence isn't necessary.

If you walked into a shop full of women, in a street in a town full of mostly women. If the callers were all talking about men as if they're the scum of the Earth. Then it might be a point.

It would still be an utterly pointless contribution though. Are we to base public policy on lowering the risk that somebody in a shop may feel that people are looking at them? Should we bring in emergency legislation to protect the rights of good looking people too?

Widdershins

Gravelly wrote: »

It would still be an utterly pointless contribution though. Are we to base public policy on lowering the risk that somebody in a shop may feel that people are looking at them? Should we bring in emergency legislation to protect the rights of good looking people too?

Thanks.
No, I was just sharing what she told me because I felt sorry for her.
By the way she'd share your disgust for the wrecked accommodation which she isn't responsible for but has to take the blame for. Unlike innocent council tenants in the same estate as anti social tenants, or settled people renting in the same street as bad tenants who wreck their accommodation.

Gravelly

Widdershins wrote: »

Thanks.
No, I was just sharing what she told me because I felt sorry for her.
By the way she'd share your disgust for the wrecked accommodation which she isn't responsible for but has to take the blame for. Unlike innocent council tenants in the same estate as anti social tenants, or settled people renting in the same street as bad tenants who wreck their accommodation.

She'd be justified in being annoyed if she's blamed for wrecking accommodation she had no part in, unlike deserving pity because a group she identifies as a member of was mentioned on the radio.

Widdershins

Gravelly wrote: »

She'd be justified in being annoyed if she's blamed for wrecking accommodation she had no part in, unlike deserving pity because a group she identifies as a member of was mentioned on the radio.

She's less likely to be given the benefit of the doubt in general, because of the community she was born into.

Gravelly

Widdershins wrote: »

She's less likely to be given the benefit of the doubt in general, because of the community she was born into.

Almost everyone suffers some little discriminations in their lives because of the group they were born into. We can whine about it and use it as an excuse to cover our failings in life, or we can get on with it. Unfortunately identity politics has led people in certain communities to believe that their particular issues are always due to "the man" keeping them down, which hasn't helped their communities develop.

Gravelly

Gravelly wrote: »

This is brilliant. So travellers wreck their (taxpayer provided) accommodation as some kind of obscure, Gandhian act of protest to avenge the tears of their children?

Best reach I've ever seen to justify vandalism and idleness.

You seem to be getting a little shrill.

Was it the best ever? Good. Always glad to excite someone!

Gravelly

Gravelly wrote: »

Almost everyone suffers some little discriminations...

"Some little discrimination...".

You're not exactly quoting the EU or Council of Europe with that line, are you?

Widdershins

Gravelly wrote: »

Almost everyone suffers some little discriminations in their lives because of the group they were born into. We can whine about it and use it as an excuse to cover our failings in life, or we can get on with it. Unfortunately identity politics has led people in certain communities to believe that their particular issues are always due to "the man" keeping them down, which hasn't helped their communities develop.

Well she does get on with it but I think it's more than a little discrimination a lot of the time. This was from one friend to another, not whining. I was just sharing an anecdote. I haven't written a blog or column berating settled people.

I agree by the way with your comment that it's not right to trash a site in retaliation for discrimination.

Gravelly

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to be getting a little shrill.

Was it the best ever? Good. Always glad to excite someone!

Shrill? Oh my, however can you tell good sir? :rolleyes:

red ears

Deleted User wrote: »

Are men the most discriminated against ethnic group in Europe, as the EU described travellers?

Its heading that way yes.. :pac:

Gravelly

Deleted User wrote: »

"Some little discrimination...".

You're not exactly quoting the EU or Council of Europe with that line, are you?

Are the EU and Council of Europe the only arbitrators of how people feel now? What is their stance on gingers?

end of the road

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I'm sorry but bull****.

no, not bull**** but fact.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Travelers are doing something wrong by simply living the way they live.

for the most part no they aren't. it's not wrong to live in a caravan. it's not wrong to move around. it's not a life i would live but it is what it is .
it is wrong to be involved in illegal activity, which yes a number of travelers are involved in, and for which the gards refuse to do anything about, for which the gards are wrong.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Their lifestyle requires taxpayers to fund it. Regardless of whether they are legally in a halting site or illegally on some other land the councils fund them.

people on wellfare are funded by the tax payer. in fact, all us tax payers are funded by the tax payer to an extent. councils don't fund those who aren't legally in a haulting site.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

If I decided to travel the country in a caravan I would need to pay my own way and camp in legal camp sites. Nothing would be provided to me.

travelers are also expected to camp in legal camp sites. those who don't have laws which correctly prohibit them from being allowed to camp illegally.
the legal camp sites if they are any good will have proper basic facilities, so facilities would be provided to you.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

That's before we take into account their unemployment rates yet they are still able to afford better cars than I could afford. They must be very good savers!!

not all of them have brand new cars. if you have evidence that some travelers are involved in activity which is illegal, and have assets you believe to have gotten via illegal means and have evidence to prove it, then report it to the revenue who will investigate.

Gravelly

Gravelly wrote: »

Are the EU and Council of Europe the only arbitrators of how people feel now? What is their stance on gingers?

I don't know.

Are gingers, men and travellers all in the exact same boat, or you gonna reach for a new (and bad) analogy every time?

Relax a little. Don't take every disagreement as a challenge and revert with hyperbole every single time.

Widdershins

Widdershins wrote: »

Well she does get on with it but I think it's more than a little discrimination a lot of the time. This was from one friend to another, not whining. I was just sharing an anecdote. I haven't written a blog or column berating settled people.

I agree by the way with your comment that it's not right to trash a site in retaliation for discrimination.

It's not right, of course.

On the other hand, I wouldn't exactly be washing my car or clipping the hedge so that the open sewer running down the halting site that the Council have provided to a standard in breach of my human rights is ameliorated.

end of the road

Gravelly wrote: »

Poor girl. I know how she feels, I was in a shop recently and they had a show on discussing men. I felt like everyone was looking at me. It was lousy.*






*The above may or may not be an apocryphal story designed to expose the pointlessness of another posters contribution.

well it has failed as her post wasn't pointless.

Gravelly wrote: »

It would still be an utterly pointless contribution though. Are we to base public policy on lowering the risk that somebody in a shop may feel that people are looking at them? Should we bring in emergency legislation to protect the rights of good looking people too?

it wouldn't be pointless at all. we are basing public policy on making things as difficult as possible for people who think it's okay to discriminate against all people of a group because they can get away with it, who wouldn't do it to other groups.

Gravelly wrote: »

Almost everyone suffers some little discriminations in their lives because of the group they were born into. We can whine about it and use it as an excuse to cover our failings in life, or we can get on with it. Unfortunately identity politics has led people in certain communities to believe that their particular issues are always due to "the man" keeping them down, which hasn't helped their communities develop.

claptrap i'm afraid. nice little rant though.
if we all suffer some sort of discrimination in our lives, it's nothing like what the travelers receive. the travelers who do nothing wrong have absolutely every right to complain about it until such time as those who discriminate are minimized, which has happened for other groups. identity politics is irrelevant and you are effectively victim blaming.

Gravelly wrote: »

Are the EU and Council of Europe the only arbitrators of how people feel now?

no, plenty of other international organisations have criticised our treatment of travelers as well. all based on mountains of actual evidence, for which you can't even argue against.

Game Face MCGee

end of the road wrote: »

Gravelly wrote: »

Poor girl. I know how she feels, I was in a shop recently and they had a show on discussing men. I felt like everyone was looking at me. It was lousy.*






*The above may or may not be an apocryphal story designed to expose the pointlessness of another posters contribution.

well it has failed as her post wasn't pointless.

Gravelly wrote: »

It would still be an utterly pointless contribution though. Are we to base public policy on lowering the risk that somebody in a shop may feel that people are looking at them? Should we bring in emergency legislation to protect the rights of good looking people too?

it wouldn't be pointless at all. we are basing public policy on making things as difficult as possible for people who think it's okay to discriminate against all people of a group because they can get away with it, who wouldn't do it to other groups.

Gravelly wrote: »

Almost everyone suffers some little discriminations in their lives because of the group they were born into. We can whine about it and use it as an excuse to cover our failings in life, or we can get on with it. Unfortunately identity politics has led people in certain communities to believe that their particular issues are always due to "the man" keeping them down, which hasn't helped their communities develop.

claptrap i'm afraid. nice little rant though.
if we all suffer some sort of discrimination in our lives, it's nothing like what the travelers receive. the travelers who do nothing wrong have absolutely every right to complain about it until such time as those who discriminate are minimized, which has happened for other groups. identity politics is irrelevant and you are effectively victim blaming.

Gravelly wrote: »

Are the EU and Council of Europe the only arbitrators of how people feel now?

no, plenty of other international organisations have criticised our treatment of travelers as well. all based on mountains of actual evidence, for which you can't even argue against.

But its a very valid point, all humans have a in built caution against a preconceived danger. Everyone discriminates and is discriminated against  based off that peoples past experiences. some are acceptable (sexism to men, politicians being abused and tarred with the same brush, "white privilege", wealthy people etc...) and some aren't (people from poor areas, racism, sexism to women, gays, travelers) 
you can't expect to wipe a lifetime of experiences away because the EU say your being discriminatory.
I for one have been robbed, attacked and made feel in danger on numerous occasion by travelers so saying to me to forget these experience and not have my guard up when i'm in their company goes against human nature, sorry to bust the liberal bubble,

end of the road

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

But its a very valid point, all humans have a in built caution against a preconceived danger. Everyone discriminates and is discriminated against based off that peoples past experiences. some are acceptable (sexism to men, politicians being abused and tarred with the same brush, "white privilege", wealthy people etc...) and some aren't (people from poor areas, racism, sexism to women, gays, travelers)
you can't expect to wipe a lifetime of experiences away because the EU say your being discriminatory.
I for one have been robbed, attacked and made feel in danger on numerous occasion by travelers so saying to me to forget these experience and not have my guard up when i'm in their company goes against human nature, sorry to bust the liberal bubble,

you can wipe away indemic discrimination against a whole group of people and insure it is challenged at every opportunity on the basis of it being the right thing to do. if the EU say we are failing to meet certain standards which we are obligated to meet then we do something about it and meet those standards, i'm not willing to pay fines because we have failed to meet our obligations.
there is no liberal bubble. as i have said i have had bad experiences with travelers, and with many others as well. i don't discriminate against everyone because of the actions of a few. that's not liberalism, it's common decentsy.

Game Face MCGee

end of the road wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

But its a very valid point, all humans have a in built caution against a preconceived danger. Everyone discriminates and is discriminated against  based off that peoples past experiences. some are acceptable (sexism to men, politicians being abused and tarred with the same brush, "white privilege", wealthy people etc...) and some aren't (people from poor areas, racism, sexism to women, gays, travelers)
you can't expect to wipe a lifetime of experiences away because the EU say your being discriminatory.
I for one have been robbed, attacked and made feel in danger on numerous occasion by travelers so saying to me to forget these experience and not have my guard up when i'm in their company goes against human nature, sorry to bust the liberal bubble,

you can wipe away indemic discrimination against a whole group of people and insure it is challenged at every opportunity on the basis of it being the right thing to do. if the EU say we are failing to meet certain standards which we are obligated to meet then we do something about it and meet those standards, i'm not willing to pay fines because we have failed to meet our obligations.
there is no liberal bubble. as i have said i have had bad experiences with travelers, and with many others as well. i don't discriminate against everyone because of the actions of a few. that's not liberalism, it's common decentsy.

so you expect people, who have been robbed in the past by travelers, to hold no bias when a group set up camp next door?

Game Face MCGee

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

so you expect people, who have been robbed in the past by travelers, to hold no bias when a group set up camp next door?

But then we go into the usual cycle of "well is it okay for white Americans to be biased against African Americans because of the higher crime rates" and so on.

Do you think the treatment of a 4 year old girl in the OP was acceptable or not. Would you display bias with a child who couldn't possibly have been part of the robbery in the past scenario you refer to?

Game Face MCGee

Deleted User wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

so you expect people, who have been robbed in the past by travelers, to hold no bias when a group set up camp next door?

But then we go into the usual cycle of "well is it okay for white Americans to be biased against African Americans because of the higher crime rates" and so on.

Do you think the treatment of a 4 year old girl in the OP was acceptable or not.  Would you display bias with a child who couldn't possibly have been part of the robbery in the past scenario you refer to?

what about rape? if a woman was raped is it acceptable that she doesn't trust/isn't comfortable being alone with men. I would say yes its very acceptable.

we can go in circles here on this but the reality is, experience form peoples perception of others. yeah there are a number of people who just hate travelers for the sake of it but the majority have a reason, which is very valid.

in relation to the child, do we know what experience this mother had with travelers in the past?

Game Face MCGee

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

what about rape? if a woman was raped is it acceptable that she doesn't trust/isn't comfortable being alone with men. I would say yes its very acceptable.

we can go in circles here on this but the reality is, experience form peoples perception of others. yeah there are a number of people who just hate travelers for the sake of it but the majority have a reason, which is very valid.

in relation to the child, do we know what experience this mother had with travelers in the past?

You have avoided the question I asked.

The rape victim in your case - would it be fair for her to discriminate against a 4 year old boy because of her horrendous experience? Would that be "very acceptable"?

Do the majority actually have a "very valid" reason to hate traveller children? I really don't think so. I think that is simply prejudice and bigotry.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

it is wrong to be involved in illegal activity, which yes a number of travelers are involved in, and for which the gards refuse to do anything about, for which the gards are wrong.

Would agree that the people actually doing the illegal activity are more in the wrong though?

Game Face MCGee

Deleted User wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

what about rape? if a woman was raped is it acceptable that she doesn't trust/isn't comfortable being alone with men. I would say yes its very acceptable.

we can go in circles here on this but the reality is, experience form peoples perception of others. yeah there are a number of people who just hate travelers for the sake of it but the majority have a reason, which is very valid.

in relation to the child, do we know what experience this mother had with travelers in the past?

You have avoided the question I asked.

The rape victim in your case - would it be fair for her to discriminate against a 4 year old boy because of her horrendous experience?  Would that be "very acceptable"?

Do the majority actually have a "very valid" reason to hate traveller children?  I really don't think so.  I think that is simply prejudice and bigotry.

what if the child was a son/daughter of a convicted rapist? acceptable or not? its defo subjective and not as black and white as you say
its very easy to sit behind a keyboard and shout prejudice and bigotry without contextualizing a persons experiences. I agree some people have no reason to be discriminatory towards travelers( and that's sad) but also some people have no direct reason to hate politicians, but they do and tar every politician as being greedy, in for themselves types. but for some reason its acceptable to hate this "community" of people as a whole,

.......

This post has been deleted.

Game Face MCGee

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

its very easy to sit behind a keyboard and shout prejudice and bigotry without contextualizing a persons experiences.

It's surely just as east to sit behind a keyboard and suggest they and their children deserve it?

Not sure what the role of the keyboard is in this...

Game Face MCGee

Deleted User wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

its very easy to sit behind a keyboard and shout prejudice and bigotry without contextualizing a persons experiences.

It's surely just as east to sit behind a keyboard and suggest they and their children deserve it?

Not sure what the role of the keyboard is in this...

putting words in my mouth, I never said the kid deserved it, I suggested there my be a reason behind it, you suggest prejudice and bigotry immediately with out understanding context. simple mistake liberals make all the time, don't worry they will be plenty of opportunities to be hypocritical again