Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

the_syco

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't. That's a nice article and very well written but she also 'needs to talk' to the many troublemakers who drag their names through the mud. This 'prejudice' didn't just come from nowhere. She mentioned the funeral for the travellers and the discrimination they faced. I think one of the funerals ended up being held here and the attendees did indeed cause a lot of damage in a pub. I remember seeing them outside and noticed the local rapist among their ranks.

They demand to be treated equally; but if we did, a lot more of them would be in prison. I've mopped up the pools of blood after a 12 travellers had a pint after a wedding in a Leixlip pub.

Fun fact; travellers hate settled travellers (those who stop being travellers).

the_syco

the_syco wrote: »

They demand to be treated equally; but if we did, a lot more of them would be in prison. I've mopped up the pools of blood after a 12 travellers had a pint after a wedding in a Leixlip pub.

Fun fact; travellers hate settled travellers (those who stop being travellers).

This thread has descended into the usual "and sure there was the fight in that town last year with slashhooks".

What have all the anecdotes to do with a 4 year old girl being sent home from a kids party to a crying mother? Is she responsible?

Tombo2001

RoboRat wrote: »

I can stand with my hand on heart and say that I have never done anything to cause any grief to a member of the traveling community. I cant say that has been reciprocated.

Personally speaking, the day in the hospital and what happened on what was supposed to be the happiest day of my life, augmented my view. You may say it was just one family but from talking to the nurses, it wasn't unusual and they practically begged me to write a letter to the HSE as they were sick to their back teeth of having to deal with it.

To kick a swiss ball around a maternity ward with babies that were hours old, with the ball landing on a newborn, and then have the stones to try and start a fight when I pulled them on it said it all to me.

Anybody who can have such blatant disregard for babies is an animal in my opinion regardless of their 'ethnicity'

Sure - but there are plenty of travelers who will be able to say with their hand on their heart that they have never done anything to cause grief to the settled community, and that have had nothing but bad experiences with the settled community all their life.

Just because you didn't do it to them personally doesn't change the fact that this is the only experience that they are used to with settled people.

There was a traveler girl who was in my year in college who was burnt out of her caravan as a kid by the local settled community. You have your grievances and they are valid.

You imagine your kid in a situation where they've been burnt out of their house - how would you feel about that.

They have their grievances and they are valid.

Its not all one way, not by a long shot.

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Red_Wake

....... wrote: »

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What have these anecdotes got to do with her anecdote?[/quote]
Do you not know that there's a hierarchy of anecdotes?

wakka12

professore wrote: »

I find it interesting that some of the same posters who threw a complete strop about any debate as to the nature of homosexuality or transgenderism (ignore thread title,
it's in there) have no problem tarring "all travellers" with the same brush. Ireland is the only country I know of where people can hold progressive leftist views on gay marriage, unisex bathrooms, 75 gender pronouns, abortion on demand etc but when it comes to travellers can be perfectly happy calling them scum like the best KKK member.

Because, the majority of irish people have had at least one or more poor experiences with travellers, who are less than 1% of the population
My fathers business has been robbed no less than 8 times by travellers. You think Irish people just randomly chose to be very liberal and accepting towards other minorities like lgbt, transgender, ethnic minorities, internationals and then just felt like picking on travellers for fun? Try think for a second why that is

.......

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Because her experience is the topic.

I read all the posts that refer to other incidents and perceive an awkwardness, an inability to admit that yes, that treatment of a 4 year old child was fairly outrageous. Frankly, if that was the treatment she got throughout her childhood, small wonder there is hatred and violence. If my daughter was treated like that for, say, being Irish, it would eat me up.

Wibbs

professore wrote: »

I find it interesting that some of the same posters who threw a complete strop about any debate as to the nature of homosexuality or transgenderism (ignore thread title,
it's in there) have no problem tarring "all travellers" with the same brush. Ireland is the only country I know of where people can hold progressive leftist views on gay marriage, unisex bathrooms, 75 gender pronouns, abortion on demand etc but when it comes to travellers can be perfectly happy calling them scum like the best KKK member.

Ask yourself the reasons why. The main ones being that the majority have had negative dealings with the group in question. Have I and others I know had positive dealings with members of the traveling community? Most certainly, but the balance have been overwhelmingly negative.

Tell you what try living cheek by jowl with a halting site, official or illegal and get back to me. You may find your moral panic over fears of "racism" is tempered by some closer to home realities. I have had to suffer that a few years ago where a bunch of caravans showed up on some parkland and they destroyed the place, costing the taxpayer hundreds of thousands to clean up. They purposely ringed the trees to kill them, burnt others, left toxic waste including asbestos from dodgy roofing practices and that's before the actual human waste left behind. Crime in the area went through the roof. Car thefts, stealing dogs was a real issue. The elderly were particular targets of both "fix your gutters" scams and actual robbery. One neighbour in her 70's was burgled when she was at mass and they violated her home with wanton destruction and even took a sh1t on her living room carpet. She was never the same again. Utter animals to do that. Never mind that she had been courteous towards them(which they seem to see as a weakness). Intimidation of worthwhile contributors to society was also a regular thing. Dog walkers, joggers, people going to the local shops etc.

Oh and bringing in African Americans and Hispanics into the mix is not comparable. For a start go to any university campus in a mixed racial catchment and you will see Black and Latino folks studying and lecturing there. Go to any big city office and again you will see folks from those communities working there. Both groups contribute to society and it is the minority that cause trouble(and it's as much about poverty levels).

More to the point both groups are seeking integration. That's about their biggest beef and was the main thrust behind the civil rights campaigns. Even those who wished to stay apart like Malcom X and his followers strove to build lawful and peaceful communities. Compare and contrast.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Richard Hillman

wakka12 wrote: »

Because, the majority of irish people have had at least one or more poor experiences with travellers, who are less than 1% of the population
My fathers business has been robbed no less than 8 times by travellers. You think Irish people just randomly chose to be very liberal and accepting towards other minorities like lgbt, transgender, ethnic minorities, internationals and then just felt like picking on travellers for fun? Try think for a second why that is

I have Russian and Congolese friends that have nothing but bad things to say about the locals that live near them. They have come to Ireland with no prejudice and their view is consistent with our own. Its not an ingrained Irish prejudice.

Irish Guitarist

Deleted User wrote: »

Because her experience is the topic.

I read all the posts that refer to other incidents and perceive an awkwardness, an inability to admit that yes, that treatment of a 4 year old child was fairly outrageous. Frankly, if that was the treatment she got throughout her childhood, small wonder there is hatred and violence. If my daughter was treated like that for, say, being Irish, it would eat me up.

"But when I showed up with my mother I was asked to leave. My friends mother had nothing against us you see- she'd just rather we weren't there. She didn't want any trouble.".

Have you considered the reasons the woman might not have wanted her at the house? She may not have expected trouble from the girl but from the rest of the family. She may not have wanted the drunken father calling around and causing trouble.

I doubt this woman decided on a whim she didn't like travellers. Not wanting trouble is hardly outrageous.

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Have you considered the reasons the woman might not have wanted her at the house? She may not have expected trouble from the girl but from the rest of the family. She may not have wanted the drunken father calling around and causing trouble.

I doubt this woman decided on a whim she didn't like travellers. Not wanting trouble is hardly outrageous.

Ah it's fairly outrageous to tell a child to leave a party on the basis of a perception about her ethnicity and what those people are like. Does she say her father was a violent drunk?

end of the road

wakka12 wrote: »

Because, the majority of irish people have had at least one or more poor experiences with travellers, who are less than 1% of the population
My fathers business has been robbed no less than 8 times by travellers. You think Irish people just randomly chose to be very liberal and accepting towards other minorities like lgbt, transgender, ethnic minorities, internationals and then just felt like picking on travellers for fun? Try think for a second why that is

because they can get away with it. enough people share the same view that there is few that will dare challenge them. the same people wouldn't treat blacks the same way, dispite the view that blacks are supposibly more likely to be involved in crime due to circumstance.
those who discriminate against travelers are the reason why travelers have to be given ethnic minority status in an effort to try and give them greater protection. those who discriminate rant about such status been given but can't seem to see that while they continue, the travelers will be given more and more protection under the law.

the_syco

end of the road wrote: »

those who discriminate against travelers are the reason why travelers have to be given ethnic minority status in an effort to try and give them greater protection.

A law against trespassing is against their rights...!

BalcombeSt4

the_syco wrote: »

They demand to be treated equally; but if we did, a lot more of them would be in prison. I've mopped up the pools of blood after a 12 travellers had a pint after a wedding in a Leixlip pub.

Fun fact; travellers hate settled travellers (those who stop being travellers).

This just vindicates everything the person wrote in the article.

end of the road

the_syco wrote: »

A law against trespassing is against their rights...!

no it isn't against their rights, and thankfully there is full support for such laws existing.

BalcombeSt4

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Very moving, very touching, one cant help but reflect on the horror of some of these experiences.

And yet, it seems like a completely one sided piece (quite understandably) that concieves of the prejudices faced by travellers as having emerged from the whim of the settled community. Theres no sense of the overwhelmingly negative experience of travellers that I suspect most people on boards would attest to. Its almost as if the problems of the travelling community have nothing to do with that community but are simply a pox on them from the rest of society.

More than that, I cant help but feel that this rage against the status quo is fundamentally empty and without direction. I mean "we need to talk" about what? The prejudices that settled folks tend to hold? Sounds like a great idea but when those prejudices are grounded in peoples learned experience its one hell of a task to undo them, and ultimately to what purpose? Say we get teachers who listen more, students who are friendlier, more travellers in higher education. What purpose does that serve if those people end up like the author, relapsing into tribal identity and grievance culture.

This is probably the most galling part for me, someone who struggles through the difficulties, overcomes the adversities and then still feels inextricably tied to an identity randomly assigned at birth. Its not pleasant but we will continue to have a traveller problem so long as the notion of a separate traveller identity exists. What we need to do is enourage people to shear themselves from the caravans and the camps, to leave behind the behaviours that have caused so much difficulty, to do what the author did and dive headfirst into maimstream society so that people cannot distinguish them from it and embrace that new identity.

Now I know this is going to strike people as stolid, uncaring, cruel even. But reading that sad account of the way things are just leaves me with more contempt for the prevailing doctrine of "unique distinct culture" as a cowardly mechanism for pandering. We need to leave aside the mistakes of previous decades and having totally distinct communities within a country and instead pursue active assimilation. Because the author seems right about one thing for sure, the status quo isnt enough.

I think the point she was making was that no matter how well in life travellers do and how pc respectable they become, there will always be a large part of Irsh society who sees them untermensch

Galwayguy35

Councils bend over backwards to their every whim, but it's never enough.

It never seems to occur to them that working people fund their lifestyle, it's about time the Revenue turned their attention to the ones who have money and let them buy their own houses.

Frog Wards headstone didn't come cheap, wonder what paid for that.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Councils bend over backwards to their every whim, but it's never enough.

It never seems to occur to them that working people fund their lifestyle, it's about time the Revenue turned their attention to the ones who have money and let them buy their own houses.

Frog Wards headstone didn't come cheap, wonder what paid for that.

Actually, the Council of Europe found that the Council's treatment of travellers constituted a breach of human rights. The amount spent on sites is a joke, millions slashed off a meagre budget in recent years, something like 50 sites provided out of the 1,000 it was felt would be needed 20 years ago.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

It never seems to occur to them that working people fund their lifestyle

Has it ever occurred to you that it would be highly unusual, quite exceptional in fact, for a non-traveller businessperson to hire a male traveller, say as a farm labourer or a barman?

Donald Trump

Eevs98 wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's a pity. Vicious cycle and all that.
But it is not as simple as people being prejudiced with zero reason.
From the article, she is 22. got 12As in her junior but no mention of anything else further. I refuse to believe that any school would not support a good student like that.
Responsibility needs to be taken by people themselves rather than complaining all the time. It might not be fair but you have to lift yourself out of these holes.

I followed the girl on twitter for a while, she's 18, predicted 615 points in the leaving cert, and she has an offer to study at Cambridge University in the UK. I'd say that's fairly indicative of someone who's taken responsibility for themselves. I don't know where ye got 22 from to be honest.

Hi Mr./Ms. Eevs98.
You appear to be familiar with this lady. As others explained, her article implied she was 18+4=22 . No matter, we will assume she is 18.

I think I found her on twitter. Self described "Sinn Fein activist"* living in Belfast with an apparent active interest in UK politics. Fair play to her and all. Genuine question....do many people from Belfast sit the Junior and Leaving Certificate? Fairly prolific tweeter too - 14.8k since Sept 2015
There are normally a handful of 12As each year in the JC results. And I think that all get their names in the paper.....it should be relatively easy to find an article or interview with her from 2-3 years ago when she sat it. Just for verification purposes of course, and to find out some more about this interesting young lady.


* Note: "Sinn fein activist" description has apparently recently been replaced on her twitter by "republican"

end of the road

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Councils bend over backwards to their every whim, but it's never enough.

It never seems to occur to them that working people fund their lifestyle, it's about time the Revenue turned their attention to the ones who have money and let them buy their own houses.

Frog Wards headstone didn't come cheap, wonder what paid for that.

the revenue investigate travelers. all the time and on a huge scale. travelers do buy their own houses when they can afford to, if they can't then they are helped by the council like everyone else.

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi Mr./Ms. Eevs98.
You appear to be familiar with this lady. As others explained, her article implied she was 18+4=22 . No matter, we will assume she is 18.

I think I found her on twitter. Self described "Sinn Fein activist" living in Belfast with an apparent active interest in UK politics. Fair play to her and all. Genuine question....do many people from Belfast sit the Junior and Leaving Certificate? Fairly prolific tweeter too - 14.8k since Sept 2015
There are normally a handful of 12As each year in the JC results. And I think that all get their names in the paper.....it should be relatively easy to find an article or interview with her from 2-3 years ago when she sat it. Just for verification purposes of course, and to find out some more about this interesting young lady.

In fairness, between your 1. "she's now in Belfast so she could not have done the Junior Cert" and 2. "everyone who gets 12 As in the Junior Cert gets in the newspaper", your sleuthing services might be in short supply.

Think about these flaws, 1. she may have moved and 2. only if they want to have the results publicised.

Eevs98

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi Mr./Ms. Eevs98.
You appear to be familiar with this lady. As others explained, her article implied she was 18+4=22 . No matter, we will assume she is 18.

I think I found her on twitter. Self described "Sinn Fein activist"* living in Belfast with an apparent active interest in UK politics. Fair play to her and all. Genuine question....do many people from Belfast sit the Junior and Leaving Certificate? Fairly prolific tweeter too - 14.8k since Sept 2015
There are normally a handful of 12As each year in the JC results. And I think that all get their names in the paper.....it should be relatively easy to find an article or interview with her from 2-3 years ago when she sat it. Just for verification purposes of course, and to find out some more about this interesting young lady.

Note: "Sinn fein activist" has been replaced on her twitter by "republican"

Her twitter hasn't said Sinn Féin activist in weeks, as far as I know she's no longer involved with the party because of a difference of opinion regarding the whole repeal thing. She doesn't live in Belfast either, it's just where she's from. No doubt there are articles, but I'm not going to doxx her, and I doubt anyone else has any interest in doxxing a teenage girl either.

Who is this creep, pestering an teenage girl on Twitter, directing her to this thread? That's just odd behaviour.

https://twitter.com/A_MarxGuerrilla/status/877216107886780417

https://twitter.com/A_MarxGuerrilla/status/877206263708487681

https://twitter.com/A_MarxGuerrilla/status/877211970507866113

osarusan

I have every sympathy for travellers who suffer not because of their own poor behaviour but because of the poor behaviour of other members of the community. There's no doubt that it happen and that it must be awful to be labelled in such a way and with such negativity.

That said, I think that, at advocate level, they are very poorly led, and they make no effort, publicly at least (or privately either, as far as I can see) to address or remedy basically any of the aspects of their own poor behaviour which play a part in the way they are viewed by the rest of the country.

Eevs98

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Who is this creep, pestering an teenage girl on Twitter, directing her to this thread? That's just odd behaviour.

Jesus look at his profile, at least 30 tweets to her in the last day. That's just properly creepy imo

The Bishop Basher

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah it's fairly outrageous to tell a child to leave a party on the basis of a perception about her ethnicity and what those people are like.

You have no idea what experiences brought that lady to that decision..

Nor have I but then i'm not judging her..

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Who is this creep, pestering an teenage girl on Twitter, directing her to this thread? That's just odd behaviour.

https://twitter.com/A_MarxGuerrilla/status/877216107886780417

https://twitter.com/A_MarxGuerrilla/status/877206263708487681

https://twitter.com/A_MarxGuerrilla/status/877211970507866113

Speaking of odd, Eevs has 12 posts. 100% of them are on this topic. He seems to be checking her out, albeit so badly it's kinda funny. I love the one where he thinks the newspapers have a list of everyone who gets straight As like there is a requirement to publish.

Swanner

Swanner wrote: »

You have no idea what experiences brought that lady to that decision..

Nor have I but then i'm not judging her..

No. And it could also be based on bigotry and intolerance.

If someone refuses, say, to serve a black person, I appreciate your "we have no idea what experiences have brought them to refuse service" may well apply. But on the face of it, it's not good.