Chiefs v Lions match thread

shuffol

I think McCloskey has shown better skills than Henshaw but at a lower level and I wouldn't be holding my breadth on him making the step up. This past season he's regressed, just tucking the ball in and running into contact. Henshaw is also a warrior in much the same way POC and BOD were, McCloskey isn't.

pickarooney

awec wrote: »

All of our 12s are IMO not too dissimilar.

Henshaw - good in defence, poor in attack
McCloskey - good in attack, poor in defence
Marshall - can't pass
Scannell - unproven

If we could somehow merge Henshaw and McCloskey into one player we'd be onto a winner.

His name is Bundee Aki.

CMOTDibbler

pickarooney wrote: »

His name is Bundee Aki.

I'll wait until I see him play at international level before I rush to judgment. Seen too many unable to make the step up. McCloskey being one of them.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ive no need to. But it explains why you are so confused by how highly Payne is rated by every coach he's played for as well, including Garland now as well. Same reason BOD/D'Arcy were rated so highly as a partnership.

Er, no.

BOD and D'Arcy were highly rated because they worked well in both attack and defence. There was no "oh but centres attacking isn't that important" rubbish back then. There were no bizarre excuses.

Jesus awec, only a few posts above this you're giving out that IBF is misrepresenting what you said. And here you are doing the very same thing yourself. I'd have thought seeing people do it to you might have finally given you insight into how frustrating it is. Apparently not.

This discussion is varying levels of BS tbh. "Henshaw is better in more space". Point me to an outside back who isn't. It's such a nonsense point. It's like saying a car is faster outside of traffic in that it's stating the bleeding obvious!

Henshaw is the best option we have at 12 and is still a good 12. Defensively he's very strong, he takes contact well in a very congested part of the pitch, has a bit of pace and a really good finishing ability. He also has a decent boot and can offload out of the tackle even if it's not something we've seen that often lately.

He has a few weaknesses such as his overall distribution which probably prevent him from becoming a really top class 12, but he is neither rubbish nor the next coming. He is very good despite a few limitations. And he is consistently very good at every level he plays at. That in itself is impressive given his age. Some of the things lacking in his game can be taught and hopefully we'll see him continue to develop over the next couple of years. Regardless, right now he's the best 12 Ireland have. He won't cost us starting in that position but he won't be some attacking whirlwind either. I would ask you who at Test level has all the bells and whistles you seem to crave?

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

This discussion is varying levels of BS tbh. "Henshaw is better in more space". Point me to an outside back who isn't. It's such a nonsense point. It's like saying a car is faster outside of traffic in that it's stating the bleeding obvious!

It certainly is a vapid point, which is why I never said it. I said Henshaw is better than McCloskey in space. You failed to understand that point

Buer

pickarooney wrote: »

His name is Bundee Aki.

Indeed but he needs to play more consistently than he did last season. In the 2015/16 year, he'd be one of the first names on the Irish team sheet if available. Based on last year, we'll see. His performances certainly weren't at the same levels.

Importantly, he seems able to lift his game at will though so I'd be optimistic that he'll do so if he plays for Ireland.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It certainly is a vapid point, which is why I never said it. I said Henshaw is better than McCloskey in space. You failed to understand that point

clsmooth

I think it's fair to say Henshaw isn't SBW. That said he's a great player, very consistent and still young. If people say he isn't particularly creative, do they expect to see him drastically change when at 13 or 15? Teo has been very good on tour so far, but I'd reserve judgement of him until we see him against NZ.

P.Walnuts

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'll wait until I see him play at international level before I rush to judgment. Seen too many unable to make the step up. McCloskey being one of them.

McCloskey has had one international cap. In Twickenham. If we were to judge every player based on their debut, in one of the toughest places in world rugby to win, where exactly would we be?

I think people are going OTT on Mccloskey, I think on merit he should have toured ahead of Marshall, he's a better 12.

McCloskey wasn't bad in that game against England. Has been given a bit of a raw deal by Schmidt imo, seems to have been completely jettisoned for now. Didn't tour SA when there were a good few injuries, didn't make Japan, hasn't had a sniff of a 6N appearance, didn't even get a look in against Canada did he?

Not really sure what Schmidt doesn't like/trust there so much tbh.

irishbucsfan

I'd imagine Schmidt has watched him play this season...

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd imagine Schmidt has watched him play this season...

Yes but it's prior to this season too, for example not going on the SA tour, starting against England and being immediately ditched having not played too badly, etc.

Koda Thundering Composer

Koda Thundering Composer wrote: »

McCloskey wasn't bad in that game against England. Has been given a bit of a raw deal by Schmidt imo, seems to have been completely jettisoned for now. Didn't tour SA when there were a good few injuries, didn't make Japan, hasn't had a sniff of a 6N appearance, didn't even get a look in against Canada did he?

Not really sure what Schmidt doesn't like/trust there so much tbh.

There is a rumour that he was offered a tour spot to SA and refused it which moved him outside the pale as far as selection goes.

May be the reason, but his performances haven't screamed "Pick Me!" either so who knows.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a rumour that he was offered a tour spot to SA and refused it which moved him outside the pale as far as selection goes.

May be the reason, but his performances haven't screamed "Pick Me!" either so who knows.

It's been discussed on here before alright, I don't believe it anyway.

errlloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a rumour that he was offered a tour spot to SA and refused it which moved him outside the pale as far as selection goes.

May be the reason, but his performances haven't screamed "Pick Me!" either so who knows.

Koda Thundering Composer wrote: »

It's been discussed on here before alright, I don't believe it anyway.

It is generally accepted among my Ulster supporting friends that was actually Darren Cave.

Buer

The rumour came from the Ulster fans on UAFC. He didn't make the orignal squad and was asked to be on the stand by list when Olding and Marshall were picked ahead of him. He allegedly turned down the offer as he planned on booking a trip to Euro 2016 with mates. He was subsequently photographed at Euro 2016.

Buer

errlloyd wrote: »

It is generally accepted among my Ulster supporting friends that was actually Darren Cave.

With respect to your Ulster friends, Darren Cave wasn't within a country mile of the conversation for Irish selection last summer so I'd be sceptical of that. He hadn't started a game for Ulster since February and was way out of the picture by the time the summer tour selection was being discussed.

mfceiling

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'll wait until I see him play at international level before I rush to judgment. Seen too many unable to make the step up. McCloskey being one of them.

Yeah that 40 minutes in Twickenham is definitely the yardstick to measure whether a player is of international standard.

You've seen too many players unable to make the step up...based on 40 minutes? With respect that's bollocks...

stephen_n

mfceiling wrote: »

Yeah that 40 minutes in Twickenham is definitely the yardstick to measure whether a player is of international standard.

You've seen too many players unable to make the step up...based on 40 minutes? With respect that's bollocks...

I would assume it's in reference to the fact he hasn't got near the jersey again since that game, more so than what he did that day.

mfceiling

stephen_n wrote: »

I would assume it's in reference to the fact he hasn't got near the jersey again since that game, more so than what he did that day.

So we can base as "fact" that someone has seen "too many" players not be able to make the step up to the international stage after playing against probably the strongest side, away from home for 40 minutes? Can anyone name 7 or 8 more of these "too many" other players?

stephen_n

mfceiling wrote: »

So we can base as "fact" that someone has seen "too many" players not be able to make the step up to the international stage after playing against probably the strongest side, away from home for 40 minutes? Can anyone name 7 or 8 more of these "too many" other players?

The Connacht squad :pac::pac:


I joke, I joke before anyone has a meltdown. There are lots of one and two cap internationals who have looked really good at club level. Dominic Ryan, Dave Foley at Munster are two that come to mind straight away.

Former Former

mfceiling wrote: »

So we can base as "fact" that someone has seen "too many" players not be able to make the step up to the international stage after playing against probably the strongest side, away from home for 40 minutes? Can anyone name 7 or 8 more of these "too many" other players?

Well, this all came up because Henshaw hasn't been great on this tour. But he's actually on a Lions tour, along with Payne. So that's our first choice centre partnership.

Then there's the guys in Japan; Marshall, Ringrose, Scannell and O'Loughlin. Two uncapped centres travelled to USA and Japan.

Then there's McCloskey.

I'd guess Olding would be ahead of him too, and Aki is about to qualify for Ireland. He's not remotely in the international conversation and I don't see that changing any time soon tbh. Considering the criticism that Schmidt often gets, McCloskey is a guy who got a chance and did not take it.

wp_rathead

wp_rathead wrote: »

I really like Lawes aswell though - either himself or Iain are great options to bring off the bench (assuming Itoje and Kruis the Lions 2nd rows). AWJ seems kinda player you need to either start or not have in the 23

Called it... kinda.. ish..

mfceiling

Former Former wrote: »

McCloskey is a guy who got a chance and did not take it.

I don't buy the "got a chance and didn't take it".

I wonder how many soccer players got a half of a game and didn't make it...or any other athletes who got 40 minutes to prove they had what it takes.

I'm not saying Stu is a great player or should be ahead of anyone else, but to base his international career on 40 minutes where he didn't play particularly badly seems like stupid logic.

What about players who got more than enough chances and played 10 or 15 games but who weren't particular good...great internationals or it took a run of games to see that they were average enough?

irishbucsfan

mfceiling wrote: »

I don't buy the "got a chance and didn't take it".

I wonder how many soccer players got a half of a game and didn't make it...or any other athletes who got 40 minutes to prove they had what it takes.

I'm not saying Stu is a great player or should be ahead of anyone else, but to base his international career on 40 minutes where he didn't play particularly badly seems like stupid logic.

What about players who got more than enough chances and played 10 or 15 games but who weren't particular good...great internationals or it took a run of games to see that they were average enough?

He hasn't really had an international career to be fair. You're right in that regard. There's better examples of guys who got chances and didn't take them (Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings from my own province).

However he's just like a lot of flawed players who never had an international career. He doesn't deserve to be playing international rugby based on the season that's just gone.

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He hasn't really had an international career to be fair. You're right in that regard. There's better examples of guys who got chances and didn't take them (Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings from my own province).

However he's just like a lot of flawed players who never had an international career. He doesn't deserve to be playing international rugby based on the season that's just gone.

Don't be bringing Leo "5secs to go, ****ing Kiddin' Me" into it now

Former Former

mfceiling wrote: »

I don't buy the "got a chance and didn't take it".

I wonder how many soccer players got a half of a game and didn't make it...or any other athletes who got 40 minutes to prove they had what it takes.

I'm not saying Stu is a great player or should be ahead of anyone else, but to base his international career on 40 minutes where he didn't play particularly badly seems like stupid logic.

What about players who got more than enough chances and played 10 or 15 games but who weren't particular good...great internationals or it took a run of games to see that they were average enough?

He got 60 minutes and he didn't play particularly badly. It's the fact that he has not featured since, even against Tier 2 teams, even in the absence of the Lions, that tells us very clearly that the coaches don't think he is up to it. I don't know what they're basing it on but he's waaaay off the pace and is going to fall further back.

He got a chance and the coaches moved on. They made an active decision that he wasn't worth persisting with. I'm sorry but what else do we need to know?

molloyjh

How has the Chiefs-Lions thread turned into a conversation about McCloskey!?

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

How has the Chiefs-Lions thread turned into a conversation about McCloskey!?

I can't be certain but I'm 100% positive it's Nucifora's fault.

sydthebeat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can't be certain but I'm 100% positive it's Nucifora's fault.

I heard doak was involved too