GGG V Canelo - Sept 16th( See First post for Info on How to Watch)

Henno30

Canelo KO

I had a draw scoring live. Will rescore it later in the week.

R. GG CA
1 9 10
2 9 10
3 9 10
4 10 9
5 10 9
6 10 9
7 10 9
8 9 10
9 10 9
10 9 10
11 10 9
12 9 10

Golovkin: 4,5,6,7,9,11
Canelo: 1,2,3,8,10,12

Quality vs Quantity fights are always tough to score. But you can't wind up with 10-2 here no matter what you do. 8-4 for sure. But no way could you only give 2 rounds to either man.

walshb

Canelo KO

Henno30 wrote: »

I had a draw scoring live. Will rescore it later in the week.

R. GG CA
1 9 10
2 9 10
3 9 10
4 10 9
5 10 9
6 10 9
7 10 9
8 9 10
9 10 9
10 9 10
11 10 9
12 9 10

Golovkin: 4,5,6,7,9,11
Canelo: 1,2,3,8,10,12

Quality vs Quantity fights are always tough to score. But you can't wind up with 10-2 here no matter what you do. 8-4 for sure. But no way could you only give 2 rounds to either man.

So point out the rds that were "clear" or handy to score. I honestly thought maybe 3 were. And that's just my view of easy/handy. That leaves 9 rds that one could argue either way. Others may say more rds were easy or handy to score, or maybe even less than 3 were easy or handy to score.

Henno30

Canelo KO

There's no such thing as a fight with lots of razor close rounds where one man wins 10 of them. On paper that might make sense but it's not a pattern that actually exists in boxing. A close but clear 7-5 or 8-4 is something you see, a close but clear 10-2 is not. Similarly when a guy legitimately wins 10-2 it's very easy to point to where the edge is. If it could be 10-2 the other way then something has gone very badly wrong in the scoring.

If there are exceptions, I'd love to hear what they are. Because I've never seen a 10-2 decision that could just as easily be 10-2 the other way.

walshb

Canelo KO

Henno30 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a fight with lots of razor close rounds where one man wins 10 of them. On paper that might make sense but it's not a pattern that actually exists in boxing. A close but clear 7-5 or 8-4 is something you see, a close but clear 10-2 is not. Similarly when a guy legitimately wins 10-2 it's very easy to point to where the edge is. If it could be 10-2 the other way then something has gone very badly wrong in the scoring.

If there are exceptions, I'd love to hear what they are. Because I've never seen a 10-2 decision that could just as easily be 10-2 the other way.

Watch SRL-Hagler...

Plenty scored that clear for Marvin. Ray got a 10-2 from one judge.

I scored it 7-5 Hagler. And possible a bigger score in Marvin's favor could be justified.

Boxing is littered with razor close fights being scored differently.

And just because many examples may not exist does not mean that widely differing cards cannot exist and exist justifiably.

normanoffside

GGG KO

walshb wrote: »

7. GGG. Clearer. Byrd scored bad here IMO

Byrd actually gave the 7th to GGG.

It was the judge that scored a draw that gave it to Canelo

walshb

Canelo KO

normanoffside wrote: »

Byrd actually gave the 7th to GGG.

It was the judge that scored a draw that gave it to Canelo

Apologies. That's right...

So, actually adds to the whole mess that is boxing and subjectivity..

walshb

Canelo KO

Stood down explains nothing...a mob baying for blood more so..

I would not hang her for that score. I can only give my score and my view of the rds. 9/10 rds could be argued for either man, hence her score cannot be put down to corruption or incompetency.

Her score could be every bit as honest and correct as mine..

walshb

Canelo KO

Instead of people shouting robbery and corruption, go watch the fight and score each rd and give a verdict on each round's competitiveness/difficulty to score. I did this and came to my conclusion that due to the amount of very competitive rds, Byrd's card cannot be deemed corrupt or wrong.

Henno30

Canelo KO

pac_man wrote: »

It's a pity that the scorecards have overshadowed a good fight. In some ways I was expecting a bit more but still a really good fight.

Canelos performance was predictable. Same old story with the stamina but eye catching in spurts. I don't understand why neither of them went to the body that much. Canelo did to some degree but not at the levels he normally does.

I felt having watched the fight on Saturday that there was more evidence to suggest that Golovkin is on the slide. The first few rounds you could put the cautious approach down to the big occasion and the fear of been countered by someone faster than him but I just felt there was something missing.

I thought Canelo went to body a lot early. Golovkin didn't see interested at all, but maybe it was out of respect for the counters. Definitely Golovkin was much less effective at the edge of range than I expected. Too slow to catch Canelo in the first rounds. His jab did the job though.

Henno30

Canelo KO

walshb wrote: »

Watch SRL-Hagler...

Plenty scored that clear for Marvin. Ray got a 10-2 from one judge.

I scored it 7-5 Hagler. And possible a bigger score in Marvin's favor could be justified.

Boxing is littered with razor close fights being scored differently.

And just because many examples may not exist does not mean that widely differing cards cannot exist and exist justifiably.

The 10-2 in the Hagler-Leonard fight was a joke though. A tragic joke for Hagler given that his team was the reason Guerra was there.

I just find it hard to picture a fight that could justifiably be 10-2 each way. I don't think such fights exist and when they're scored that way, it's bad judging. I don't feel the same way about 7-5/8-4 decisions.

Henno30

Canelo KO

I find the Fightscore app to be a much better guide than the media or forum polls, or even the judges.

From 1453 cards they have it 115-114 Golovkin.

Clear rounds for Canelo: 1, 2, 3, 11, 12

Clear rounds for GGG: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Rd 10 they have even (45% each way and 10% scored it even)


Looking at the margins, Golovkin has six rounds where 75% of fans saw him winning. Canelo has just one, round 2.

That kind of sums it up for me. Golovkin won his rounds bigger, so if anyone deserved the nod it was him. A draw is a fair outcome. And Adalaide Byrd is a crook.

Maravilla33

Canelo Points

Was arguing this yesterday. I can't see how you can have a 10-2 in a close fight. I can see the theory behind it but just can't see it in practice. If someone wins 10-2 they've generally done something better regularly over the course of a fight making it not that close. If the rounds are genuinely that close then variance suggests each man will win a few. Like I can see a very close 116-112 but not 118-110.

Her card was a joke. Surprised your defending it so vociferously walsh. If not corrupt it was incompetent. How anyone can give GGG 2 rounds in that fight is beyond me and I was satisfied with a draw.

yourdeadwright

Canelo KO

The biggest joke is the judge that gave the draw gave round 7 to Canelo , it was by far the easiest round to score, it makes zero sense to think he won that round,
Was a fight with 9 very close rounds ,

walshb

Canelo KO

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Was arguing this yesterday. I can't see how you can have a 10-2 in a close fight. I can see the theory behind it but just can't see it in practice. If someone wins 10-2 they've generally done something better regularly over the course of a fight making it not that close. If the rounds are genuinely that close then variance suggests each man will win a few. Like I can see a very close 116-112 but not 118-110.

Her card was a joke. Surprised your defending it so vociferously walsh. If not corrupt it was incompetent. How anyone can give GGG 2 rounds in that fight is beyond me and I was satisfied with a draw.

Each rd is completely independent of any other rd. You only score that way..

If Byrd generally believed that Canelo deserved the 10 points in 10 rds then what is wrong with that?

People keep screaming robbery and corruption.

Go watch and score and assess each individual rd.

If it is possible that Canelo could be given 9-10 rds then say it.

If not then post the rds he could be given and the ones he couldn't, with reasons why..

That is called due course, fairness and fighting your corner. And for me it's a whole lot better than shouting accusations.

I did this, and although my card was very different to hers, doesn't mean that my card is correct and hers incorrect, or as some want to claim, corrupt.

walshb

Canelo KO

So point out what rds Byrd obviously got wrong..

Example...rds 10-12 all 3 have Canelo.

I gave only one to Canelo. Am I right or they? Am I corrupt or they?

I checked. There are 4 contentious rounds. 5, 6, 8 and 9.

Byrd gave all to Canelo and the other all to GGG, like I did. Of the four, I felt 5 and 8 were easier to score for GGG than 6 and 9. 6 and 9 could be argued for Canelo.

So I can only quiz her on two rds. 5 and 8.

Maravilla33

Canelo Points

walshb wrote: »

Each rd is completely independent of any other rd. You only score that way..

If Byrd generally believed that Canelo deserved the 10 points in 10 rds then what is wrong with that?

People keep screaming robbery and corruption.

Go watch and score and assess each individual rd.

If it is possible that Canelo could be given 9-10 rds then say it.

If not then post the rds he could be given and the ones he couldn't, with reasons why..

That is called due course, fairness and fighting your corner. And for me it's a whole lot better than shouting accusations.

I did this, and although my card was very different to hers, doesn't mean that my card is correct and hers incorrect, or as some want to claim, corrupt.

I'm not screaming foul but its incompetence at best. Like when 3 people are tasked with doing the same job. 2 have it reasonably close. Most of the world have it close either way. Then she has this off the wall card that doesn't really reflect the fight and that nobody else including yourself (who is playing devils advocate to the hilt to be fair to you) has replicated. Does that not scream something is wrong? I've seen the minority giving the fight to Canelo, all by a round or 2 here and there. Most gave to to GGG, plenty could see a draw. Nobody else has been like ah yeah it was close I'll go 118-110. Does it not look odd that the possibility you are suggesting is feasible has not been repeated anywhere else?

Maravilla33

Canelo Points

Btw I will go back and watch and score it again. Had GGG up by a couple but straight after I said on here I can see this being given to Canelo lads.

walshb

Canelo KO

Like I said. Score each rds and assess its scoring criteria and its competitiveness and report back.

I got 8-3-1 for GGG...

Someone getting the opposite, or similarly opposite, so what. 9-10 of the rds were that close.

As regards my view not being repeated anywhere else. So what. I don't generally follow the majority just to be in the majority. I shoot straight. If that is generally-mostly the minority's view so be it.

nacho libre

Canelo KO

pac_man wrote: »

I felt having watched the fight on Saturday that there was more evidence to suggest that Golovkin is on the slide. .

or is it that he is not as good as you thought him to be? Canelo, if he had not issues with his stamina, might well have won this fight.

walshb

Canelo KO

nacho libre wrote: »

or is it that he is not as good as you thought him to be? Canelo, if he had not issues with his stamina, might well have won this fight.

GGG was blowing out of his arse near the end..

GGG for me is not an ATG type MW..I think he is somewhat overrated in today's and recently weak MW division.

Outlaw Pete

Draw

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The biggest joke is the judge that gave the draw gave round 7 to Canelo , it was by far the easiest round to score, it makes zero sense to think he won that round,
Was a fight with 9 very close rounds ,

Yeah, I agree.........

The cumulative effect of siding with Canelo in the majority of the close rounds gives the impression that Byrd scored the fight poorly whilst the other judges called it just fine.......... but it is actually the awarding of Round 7 to Canelo which is the most farcical round call of the fight. Whereas Byrd's round calls can at least be argued, Don Trella's calling of Round 7 cannot.

hbhook

Canelo Points

wonderfullife wrote: »

Respectfully you wouldn't shut your mouth about Canelo-GGG in the May-Mac thread so you've some cheek asking anybody not to make comparisons to May-Mac in this thread.

No offence intended. It was late.

I was just selling the real, competitive fight on the other thread as a ways to mock it but to also let people know (who might not) what they were spending their money on. That other fight was a joke and was scheduled in August just to spite Canelo/Golovkin and ODLH. I left that thread nearly as soon as it finished rather than stick around and say ''I told you so''. Even if it didn't go how I thought it would go. I didn't read all your comments the other night either so there was probably a good explanation as to why you dropped McGregor's name in the middle of a boxing discussion about two particular fighters who had just fought.

Call me up on it if I ever go over to a UFC thread and do the same.

walshb

Canelo KO

It's actually damaging for judging and the sport if the message is that competitive fights have to be marked closely otherwise you will get slated...

I have judged loads of 3 rd amateur contests that were 3 very difficult to score rds, and I felt the slight pressure to be scoring 2-1 to make it seem "fairer." That is wrong. Score openly and honestly, and if that is wide, stand by it.

Same in the pros. Each rd to be scored on its own..

Why should judges be under pressure to even it up should they feel one boxer is very slightly swaying them in each round? That is exactly where corruption can creep in.

Maravilla33

Canelo Points

walshb wrote: »

Like I said. Score each rds and assess its scoring criteria and its competitiveness and report back.

I got 8-3-1 for GGG...

Someone getting the opposite, or similarly opposite, so what. 9-10 of the rds were that close.

As regards my view not being repeated anywhere else. So what. I don't generally follow the majority just to be in the majority. I shoot straight. If that is generally-mostly the minority's view so be it.

Its nothing to do with following the majority. Fact is if the only people in the world that could possibly argue for a 118-110 are yourself and Mrs Byrd there is a good chance you're wrong

walshb

Canelo KO

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Its nothing to do with following the majority. Fact is if the only people in the world that could possibly argue for a 118-110 are yourself and Mrs Byrd there is a good chance you're wrong

Well, it boils down to two rds here. You said 116-112 could be accepted..

I must be corrupt or wrong for giving GGG 2 of rds 10-12 when most, including the judges have those for Canelo.

Absolute storm in a teacup. She had a wide card, but for many the correct winner. Not my winner. But so what.

Anyway, I'd rather see the cards of those moaning and their scores and justifications and reasons why their cards are correct and hers incorrect.

If all they can say is "we are in the majority," then that is just stupid.

Of the 12 individual rds only one can truly be presented as clear. Rd 7. And it wasn't Byrd that got that one wrong.

nacho libre

Canelo KO

pac_man wrote: »

No I'm starting to warm to the idea that we are seeing a fighter that his past his best. If it was just based of this performance then you'd question that I'd have an agenda in discrediting Canelos performance but it's three fights on the bounce in which something has been missing. It's not a dramatic decline but at 35 years of age, it's a natural assumption to make that he might be passed his peak.

Again I'm not discrediting Canelos performance.He showed he was the superior boxer at times in this fight and I'd probably fancy Canelo in the rematch. Golovkins style of fighting is generally not conducive to a long career and you'd have to question how much mentally and physically the last two fights have taking out of him. Waiting till next May or September will definitely suit Canelo. He'd be less fearful knowing that he can take Golovkins punches.

I agree about his style not being conducive to a long career. However I just feel when he has been properly tested he has not looked as good as he did against the likes of Murray and Macklin, so i don't share your view that it's evidence that he is in decline. I think walshb is right he is just not a true great middleweight.

Maravilla33

Canelo Points

walshb wrote: »

Well, it boils down to two rds here. You said 116-112 could be accepted..

I must be corrupt or wrong for giving GGG 2 of rds 10-12 when most, including the judges have those for Canelo.

Absolute storm in a teacup. She had a wide card, but for many the correct winner. Not my winner. But so what.

Anyway, I'd rather see the cards of those moaning and their scores and justifications and reasons why their cards are correct and hers incorrect.

If all they can say is "we are in the majority," then that is just stupid.

Of the 12 individual rds only one can truly be presented as clear. Rd 7. And it wasn't Byrd that got that one wrong.

Ah no I didn't say I could accept 116-112 for this fight. I could accept a close fight being scored 116-112 in general. Even though one lad has won 8 rounds it could be close, like what you're saying. I can't accept a close decision being 118-110. I can't see a fight playing out like that with rounds being razor thin yet one lad happens to get 10. Not for me. Her card was a joke.

walshb

Canelo KO

I'd pick a heap of MWs over the past 40 years to beat him...

Take our own Steve Collins...how does GGG beat him?

He won't KO or stop him, that's for sure..

walshb

Canelo KO

Style/physically wise I think GGG would have his best fight and chance against a MW that many rate number 1, Hagler.

MWs like Jones and Toney would be horrible matches for GGG

G-Man and Eubank and McCallum I would make solid favourites.

SRL and Hearns at 160 too fast and slick, and both heavy handed enough as well.

Eubank and Watson and Benn also very tough matches for him.

Michael Nunn and Kalambay another two names...

begbysback

Canelo Points

walshb wrote: »

Instead of people shouting robbery and corruption, go watch the fight and score each rd and give a verdict on each round's competitiveness/difficulty to score. I did this and came to my conclusion that due to the amount of very competitive rds, Byrd's card cannot be deemed corrupt or wrong.

I wouldn't say corrupt, most likely she scored the card by listening to the crowd.

Though I could see subjectivity in that if a judge is looking for the cleaner shots, and doesn't rate coming forward highly, and Canelo was able to defend well, then the closer rounds could be given to Canelo.

But I do believe she let the crowd mark the card.