Is there anybody else who dislikes pride?

baby and crumble

This was the first year in a while that I didn't march- I watched it from the childhood bedroom window of the woman I'm going to marry in a few months. We hung flags out the windows, and screamed our heads off at the crowds. Her Mum joined in with us. Her Mum who told her when she came out that it was "Just a phase", and who begged her not to tell anyone else in case we'd get beaten up. All of her family were there to cheer us on, and these were locals from on the parade route. They all came out to wave flags and cheer and smile. I don't think I saw one angry face. I saw all the local little old dears getting asked for selfies by young men, excited to see someone who looked like their granny cheering them on.

I watched the whole thing and I think I saw one group of folks who weren't all pretty much in jeans and t-shirts- and those were the guys from Bear Feile.

All in all, it was a great day and all I heard after from the locals was "that was brilliant! I hope it comes back next year".

Mr.Frame

Just read an article in the Indo this morning which stated that young teenagers were subjected to the most horrific homophobic abuse on a bus returning from the Pride celebrations .

One of the passengers said ""I helped a guy of about 16 or 17 wipe off the rainbow flags he had painted on his face so they (the attackers) wouldn't target him", she added.


To those on here who say "why is there a need for a Pride Parade, you got marriage equality",blah blah, THIS is why we most definitely NEED a pride parade.

We LGBT people in 2017 on pride night are STILL subjected to abuse and its not on.

BlinkingLights

It shows why we need Pride and also actual *way* better resourced Gardai.

It's a lovely country and Dublin can be a great place, until you encounter one of these balls of violence, nastiness, hate and mayhem.

I think pretty much all of us have experienced some thuggery like this in Ireland and it's usually aimed at anyone who stands out as different and I think you'll always get it hitting the LGBT+ community and often ethic minorities too.

These are the same profile of people who would be engaged in football hooliganism if they were English. I don't know how you tackle it but it is a significant problem on both of these islands.

I've been attacked (so far only verbally) good few times over the years and to be quite honest you'd get a bit sick of the attitude. It's like they're just looking for a fight and picking on anyone they perceive as not one of them.

What's worse is there's a level or tolerance of it in Ireland that you do not see is lot of countries. People seem frightened to attempt to push back. Probably because they feel they'll be injured and have no back up.

Some of the comments under that Independent article are worrying though. A lot of homophobic stuff and victim blaming.

Mr.Frame

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Heterosexuals dont need one.
Heterosexuals can freely walk down the street holding their partners hand with fear of ridicule, verbal abuse or violence.

That is a good distinction to make but it does not _always_ hold true. Interracial heterosexuals for example quite often experience just as much ridicule abuse and violence as you describe.

Not just that but any heterosexual couple where one of them is deemed to below modern standards of attractiveness can draw the same.

A close friend of mine is deeply in love and in a long term relationship with a woman who most people would consider very obese. He loves her and is as attracted to her as any of us are to our own partners. But he and she sometimes suffer no small quantity of abuse and ridicule when they engage in any level of PDA.

Another example is a person I _was_ friends with but lost contact with over time. He had a girlfriend somewhat younger than him. But she also looked younger than she was and he older than he was which exacerbated the visual difference in age. You can imagine the style of language and attitude and even violence they on occasion drew.

So homosexuals do not have a monopoly on the kind of bigotry we are all too aware of here in the gay and bi community. Many heterosexuals get it too and do not get to live somehow free of judgement in a world rife with bigotry.

"Pride" may be done by and done for homosexuals but I see it myself as a greater statement - and being the M in a non-standard MFF relationship it is a statement I can join in with to - which is that this is not just about homosexuals. It is about _all_ of us being able to take pride in loving the person or people we love - and not having to justify it to anyone just because it is not someone _they_ would want sexually or romantically.

Assuming we are not breaking any law - we all want to love who we love openly and without fear of judgement or derision just because someone else would make different decisions and feels ours should be theirs.

BlinkingLights

Nobody has a monopoly on it and I don't think anyone would ever claim that, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it. There is a significant problem when you're part of a community that ther very terms for are still used as an abusive insult... It happens to LGBT people and various ethnic groups. I've also seen it used to target nationalities here too.

A friend of mine was told to "go home" by an estate agent not too many months ago when she complained about problems in a rental place. I was absolutely flabbergasted it happened in Ireland and I took it incrediably seriously and confronted them about it.

As I was saying above, there's an ongoing problem in Ireland from a small % of the population who seem to be just violent, agressive thugs and we are definitely missing proper hate crime legislation.

I've seen a few weird attacks like this, verbal and otherwise on people who have been minding their own business and just looked different.

Random assaults are bad enough, but when someone's targeted (often repeatedly) because of who they are, or how they look it's really taking things to another level and I think the sentencing has to reflect that.

In general, I think Ireland's a pretty open-minded and tolerant place these days, but it doesn't mean that there isn't the odd issue here and there and those do need to be dealt with.

What concerns me is that someone goes out and commits some kind of targeted assault on someone *becuase* they're LGBT, because they're a different ethnicity, or any number of other targeted reasons and then it's treated in court as if this is just a normal assault and they get the usual ridiculously light sentence.

Annasopra

Yep agreed

And I think ENARs campaign for hate crime laws well worth supporting

https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/love-not-hate-unite-to-legislate-against-hate-crime

gizmo81

Racism, Body shaming and agism are all issues in their own right. Body Shaming is a huge issue that gets no attention specifically in the LGBTQ+community.

However, racism, body shaming and agism are not unique to the heterosexual community.

What person has been abused, physically, verbally, systematically for the sole reason that they love, shag a person of the opposite sex?

Deleted User wrote: »

That is a good distinction to make but it does not _always_ hold true. Interracial heterosexuals for example quite often experience just as much ridicule abuse and violence as you describe.

Not just that but any heterosexual couple where one of them is deemed to below modern standards of attractiveness can draw the same.

A close friend of mine is deeply in love and in a long term relationship with a woman who most people would consider very obese. He loves her and is as attracted to her as any of us are to our own partners. But he and she sometimes suffer no small quantity of abuse and ridicule when they engage in any level of PDA.

Another example is a person I _was_ friends with but lost contact with over time. He had a girlfriend somewhat younger than him. But she also looked younger than she was and he older than he was which exacerbated the visual difference in age. You can imagine the style of language and attitude and even violence they on occasion drew.

So homosexuals do not have a monopoly on the kind of bigotry we are all too aware of here in the gay and bi community. Many heterosexuals get it too and do not get to live somehow free of judgement in a world rife with bigotry.

"Pride" may be done by and done for homosexuals but I see it myself as a greater statement - and being the M in a non-standard MFF relationship it is a statement I can join in with to - which is that this is not just about homosexuals. It is about _all_ of us being able to take pride in loving the person or people we love - and not having to justify it to anyone just because it is not someone _they_ would want sexually or romantically.

Assuming we are not breaking any law - we all want to love who we love openly and without fear of judgement or derision just because someone else would make different decisions and feels ours should be theirs.

Ten of Swords

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Just read an article in the Indo this morning which stated that young teenagers were subjected to the most horrific homophobic abuse on a bus returning from the Pride celebrations .

One of the passengers said "I helped a guy of about 16 or 17 wipe off the rainbow flags he had painted on his face so they (the attackers) wouldn't target him", she added.

That story made me sad, having to remove his face paint to blend in so he wouldn't catch a beating, that's definitely a step back towards the less tolerant Ireland we've left behind. I'm glad other passengers stood up for the teens being attacked

Having said that it never ceases to amaze me how many people think that homophobia in Ireland simply evaporated overnight once the marriage referendum passed. It certainly did not and it would be foolish to think otherwise. 40% of the population voted no and of those there will always be a small minority that hold extreme views, a percentage of these would be prepared to use intimidation, or even violence, if the opportunity arose.

gizmo81

gizmo81 wrote: »

However, racism, body shaming and agism are not unique to the heterosexual community.

Exactly my point

I just think that anyone who feels hard done by because "Heterosexuals can freely walk down the street holding their partners hand with fear of ridicule, verbal abuse or violence." may not be aware of the number of heterosexuals who actually can't.

So I love taking part in Pride not just as a specific statement but as a general one that we can all get behind.

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly my point

I just think that anyone who feels hard done by because "Heterosexuals can freely walk down the street holding their partners hand with fear of ridicule, verbal abuse or violence." may not be aware of the number of heterosexuals who actually can't.

So I love taking part in Pride not just as a specific statement but as a general one that we can all get behind.

Heterosexuals are not targeted because they are heterosexual. Thats the point.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Heterosexuals are not targeted because they are heterosexual. Thats the point.

Who said they were

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

Who said they were

The suffering of one group (LGBTQ+) is not any less valid because they are not the only group to suffer, and it doesn't make the pride march any less worthwhile.

I'm sorry but it's an entirely moot point that other groups also suffer sometimes.

Goodshape

Goodshape wrote: »

The suffering of one group (LGBTQ+) is not any less valid because they are not the only group to suffer, and it doesn't make the pride march any less worthwhile.

Again though - who said any of that????

I am not sure what you are all replying to - but it has not been anything related to what I have said.

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

Again though - who said any of that????

I am not sure what you are all replying to - but it has not been anything related to what I have said.

My apologies then. You wrote a couple of lengthy enough posts so I assumed you were trying to make some sort of point that was relevant to the conversation we're having.

My mistake!


// EDIT::

Sorry, I was being sarky.. I re-read you comment and I had actually missed this bit:

Deleted User wrote:

that this is not just about homosexuals. It is about _all_ of us being able to take pride in loving the person or people we love - and not having to justify it to anyone just because it is not someone _they_ would want sexually or romantically.

Afraid my eyes had already glazed over by that point on first reading, due to what I thought was the same-old "what about straight people?!?!" argument.

I do agree with what you said there.

Goodshape

Goodshape wrote: »

My apologies then. You wrote a couple of lengthy enough posts so I assumed you were trying to make some sort of point that was relevant to the conversation we're having.

My mistake!

I was. Just not _that_ point

The thread appears to be about people liking or diskliking pride.

And a user on the thread suggested heterosexuals are somehow able to walk down the street without _any_ fear of judgement violence invective or abuse.

So my point is just that this is not always true - there are many heterosexuals who face such things walking down the street with their partners for a whole host of other reasons - and _I like_ pride as I think that it gives off a message that people of any gender and any sexuality and any non-standard situation (such as my own) can stand for and take heart in.

Which is basically a message that we should _all_ be free of judgement of whom we choose to love/date and why. On the sole assumption we are not breaking any law while doing so.

I think it is a message that crosses boundries. Gender ones. Sexuality ones. Racial ones. Geographic ones. It is a message for us all.

BlinkingLights

Goodshape wrote: »

The suffering of one group (LGBTQ+) is not any less valid because they are not the only group to suffer, and it doesn't make the pride march any less worthwhile.

I'm sorry but it's an entirely moot point that other groups also suffer sometimes.

If anything the fact the LGBT+ community raises issues that are common to other people and makes people think is a very GOOD thing as it gets debates starterd, makes people think and maybe some nasty aspects of society get changed.

Of course homophobia still exists in Ireland. That doesn't mean I think Ireland is a particularly homophobic place, but pockets of homophobia absolutely exist here as much as they exist in many other cultures. It's just that the majority are a lot more inclusive and open minded.

You also have to accept that some people exist in online bubbles these days and seem to be just absorbing homophobic and racist attitudes from groups they're virtually socialising with, so whether you're in Cork, Dublin, Amsterdam, London, San Francisco etc, you could quite easily encounter someone who is just soaking up hate online and feels that kind of thing is normal.

On top of that, continue driving a few tens of kilometres North of Dundalk and into Northern Ireland and you've an openly homophobic aspect to one side of politics at official level!!

You've also got some adherents to various religious outlooks in the Republic who express deeply homophobic views as if they should be totally acceptable.

So while we are a modern, diverse, gay friendly society the price or maintaining that is always going to be vigilance and reacting to incidents and being visible.

It's the same for any group here that has achieved rights in society. There's always a risk of regressive politics emerging and rolling things back. Look across the Atlantic to the US and you'll see a good illustration of why you can never assume anything is won.

Talented Dicky

BlinkingLights wrote: »

If anything the fact the LGBT+ community raises issues that are common to other people and makes people think is a very GOOD thing as it gets debates starterd, makes people think and maybe some nasty aspects of society get changed.

Of course homophobia still exists in Ireland. That doesn't mean I think Ireland is a particularly homophobic place, but pockets of homophobia absolutely exist here as much as they exist in many other cultures. It's just that the majority are a lot more inclusive and open minded.

You also have to accept that some people exist in online bubbles these days and seem to be just absorbing homophobic and racist attitudes from groups they're virtually socialising with, so whether you're in Cork, Dublin, Amsterdam, London, San Francisco etc, you could quite easily encounter someone who is just soaking up hate online and feels that kind of thing is normal.

On top of that, continue driving a few tens of kilometres North of Dundalk and into Northern Ireland and you've an openly homophobic aspect to one side of politics at official level!!

You've also got some adherents to various religious outlooks in the Republic who express deeply homophobic views as if they should be totally acceptable.

So while we are a modern, diverse, gay friendly society the price or maintaining that is always going to be vigilance and reacting to incidents and being visible.

It's the same for any group here that has achieved rights in society. There's always a risk of regressive politics emerging and rolling things back. Look across the Atlantic to the US and you'll see a good illustration of why you can never assume anything is won.

I am by no means homophobic but I am glad that this event is over. The scenes I witnessed in town during pride (men in knee high tights and suspenders) and people engaging in really off lewd behaviour does the Pride movement no good whatsoever. Not to mention the drunkenness. Remember if this was any other group of society we'd be hearing about how "out of control" they are but it (seems to be) is ok here because it relates to a group of people who try to solicit sympathy. That's not equality.

Personally I think it should be scrapped. There's no need to ram this life style down the throats of the rest of us.

I don't think any section of society should be able to shut off the city center so that it becomes impossible to bring children into town.

robyntmorton

Talented Dicky wrote: »

I am by no means homophobic but I am glad that this event is over. The scenes I witnessed in town during pride (men in knee high tights and suspenders) and people engaging in really off lewd behaviour does the Pride movement no good whatsoever. Not to mention the drunkenness. Remember if this was any other group of society we'd be hearing about how "out of control" they are but it (seems to be) is ok here because it relates to a group of people who try to solicit sympathy. That's not equality.

Personally I think it should be scrapped. There's no need to ram this life style down the throats of the rest of us.

I don't think any section of society should be able to shut off the city center so that it becomes impossible to bring children into town.

You lost me after the first sentence. No post that starts "I'm not X, but..." ever goes well.

Drunkenness? Question: How much of a clean up is required in Dublin every March 18th, the day after another socially acceptable drinking festival?

Ramming this lifestyle down people's throats? No. Nobody forces you to watch the parade. There is no gay agenda, trying to forcibly convert people. You are free to enjoy as much or as little of Pride as you so wish. Don't want to be a part of it? Fine, don't be.

Shut off the city centre? Did you read all of the posts on this forum complaining about the out of the way route this year? The city centre was not shut off.

Impossible to bring children into town? What are they going to see? A lot of happy people saying I'm proud of who I am.

For someone who is not at all homophobic, your post certainly doesn't come across that way.

Redhairedguy

Talented Dicky wrote: »

I don't think any section of society should be able to shut off the city center so that it becomes impossible to bring children into town.

Talented Dicky

robyntmorton wrote: »

You lost me after the first sentence. No post that starts "I'm not X, but..." ever goes well.

Drunkenness? Question: How much of a clean up is required in Dublin every March 18th, the day after another socially acceptable drinking festival?

Ramming this lifestyle down people's throats? No. Nobody forces you to watch the parade. There is no gay agenda, trying to forcibly convert people. You are free to enjoy as much or as little of Pride as you so wish. Don't want to be a part of it? Fine, don't be.

Shut off the city centre? Did you read all of the posts on this forum complaining about the out of the way route this year? The city centre was not shut off.

Impossible to bring children into town? What are they going to see? A lot of happy people saying I'm proud of who I am.

For someone who is not at all homophobic, your post certainly doesn't come across that way.

I don't think you should be getting personal in your reply.

I was in town that day and the place was packed with pride attendees. It might not have been the specific parade route, I'll grant you that, but there's no doubt that the parade caused many many pride attendees to congregate in the city centre.

I don't think I should be forced to expose my children to this form of alternative lifestyle. I prefer (without casting aspertions on anyone at all) to teach my kids that the traditional family model is the "straight" one.

Pride disrupts, in a very significant way, my ability (I also have rights) to raise my children appropriately and enjoy the city centre too.

In summary it's too public a display and it's more than just "happiness" that's on display (and of course I wouldn't take issue with people demonstrating happiness or individuality).

I don't necessarily disagree with your point re st Patrick's day. It's just not really on topic.

robyntmorton

Talented Dicky wrote: »

I don't think you should be getting personal in your reply.

I was in town that day and the place was packed with pride attendees. It might not have been the specific parade route, I'll grant you that, but there's no doubt that the parade caused many many pride attendees to congregate in the city centre.

I don't think I should be forced to expose my children to this form of alternative lifestyle. I prefer (without casting aspertions on anyone at all) to teach my kids that the traditional family model is the "straight" one.

Pride disrupts, in a very significant way, my ability (I also have rights) to raise my children appropriately and enjoy the city centre too.

In summary it's too public a display and it's more than just "happiness" that's on display (and of course I wouldn't take issue with people demonstrating happiness or individuality).

I don't necessarily disagree with your point re st Patrick's day. It's just not really on topic.

If you feel my post was a personal attack, please do report it. I will maintain that I refuted the points you made, and attacked the post, not you.

Nobody forced you to expose your children to any sort of alternative lifestyle. If you go into a city centre of any major city, on any day of the week, you will be exposed to all sorts of alternative lifestyles. That's what happens in cities.

Just because you want to teach your kids that family = man + woman, doesn't mean that other people can't teach alternative viewpoints, or that diversity is good.

What you are saying about Pride disrupting your ability to enjoy the city centre is, quite frankly, rubbish. You are saying there, that your rights come above those of others, who are also there to enjoy the city centre, and that they shouldn't be there. I'm sorry, but everyone is equal, and nobody comes ahead of everyone else.

If you wish to try and get Pride out of the city, may I recommend you make representation to DCC, who did, like in previous years, approve of, and facilitate the event.

My comment too, about St Patrick's Day and drunkenness, is not off topic. You yourself made it on topic, when you said:

Remember if this was any other group of society we'd be hearing about how "out of control" they are but it (seems to be) is ok here because it relates to a group of people who try to solicit sympathy.

I gave you another example of a group, where it is both out of control, and seemingly okay.

Talented Dicky

Talented Dicky wrote: »

I don't think you should be getting personal in your reply.

He didn't.

Talented Dicky wrote: »

the parade caused many many pride attendees to congregate in the city centre.

As is their right.

Talented Dicky wrote: »

I don't think I should be forced to expose my children to this form of alternative lifestyle.

You are not. It is your _choice. It was you - however - who made a total leap from that choice to declaring it is "impossible to bring children into town."

It is perfectly possible - you personally simply choose not to.

Talented Dicky wrote: »

I prefer to teach my kids that the traditional family model is the "straight" one.

Most gay people teach that it is the "traditional" model too - so not sure what your point here is?

What they do _not_ seemingly teach kids however is that the traditional one is somehow the best or superior one. Mainly because they - like me - prefer to teach children what is actually true - not what we made up or simply _want_ to be true.

Talented Dicky wrote: »

Pride disrupts, in a very significant way, my ability (I also have rights) to raise my children appropriately and enjoy the city centre too.

No. It does not. You just imagine it does because you are projecting your own personal choices and bias onto others. It no more does that than black people walking around Dublin City disrupts the ability of racists to raise their children and enjoy the city centre too.

It is their own biases and opinions disrupting them in the city - not what is _in_ the city itself.

Talented Dicky wrote: »

In summary it's too public a display and it's more than just "happiness" that's on display

Yea - you mentioned men in tights or something. What business is it of yours what people wear? If you do not like what a person is wearing I suggest you look elsewhere with your eyes.

Talented Dicky

robyntmorton wrote: »

If you feel my post was a personal attack, please do report it. I will maintain that I refuted the points you made, and attacked the post, not you.

Nobody forced you to expose your children to any sort of alternative lifestyle. If you go into a city centre of any major city, on any day of the week, you will be exposed to all sorts of alternative lifestyles. That's what happens in cities.

Just because you want to teach your kids that family = man + woman, doesn't mean that other people can't teach alternative viewpoints, or that diversity is good.

What you are saying about Pride disrupting your ability to enjoy the city centre is, quite frankly, rubbish. You are saying there, that your rights come above those of others, who are also there to enjoy the city centre, and that they shouldn't be there. I'm sorry, but everyone is equal, and nobody comes ahead of everyone else.

If you wish to try and get Pride out of the city, may I recommend you make representation to DCC, who did, like in previous years, approve of, and facilitate the event.

My comment too, about St Patrick's Day and drunkenness, is not off topic. You yourself made it on topic, when you said:



I gave you another example of a group, where it is both out of control, and seemingly okay.

Your point about st Patrick's day is completely off point. You can't logically respond to an argument that "X is wrong", by saying "Y does it". You certainly can't advance your argument when Y isn't even under discussion.

My problem is not with people being "equal" or being happy. My problem is specifically with the lewd behaviour and publicly asserting a lifestyle which they are entitled to enjoy, but which some consider unconventional. Again no problem with the gay community. Live and let live and all that. But there's no discretion shown at pride and it's takes over the city to the detriment of others. Not complaining about myself as such but it's the children.

You can't carry on with anti social behaviour and just wave it off as equality.

Perhaps you can list some of the anti social behaviour you mean. Because if wearing tights is the best you got - then you are not making a lot of sense.

The point about Patricks day is perfectly on topic however. Because what you are doing is highlighting a problem about Festivals in Ireland in general - that Irish people attending them tend to over drink at them - and making it solely about one festival _you_ personally dislike.

And that simply exposes your bias and agenda and the masks slips. When someone takes something that is _generally_ true and moans about it in one _single_ instance - then they are clearly selecting their position first and fitting the arguments to it second rather than the other way around.

Which is the very definition of what confirmation bias actually means.

Annasopra

Talented dicky.

Your posts seem to be little other than trolling, soap boxing and back seat modding all of which breach the forum charter. Don't post in this thread again.

Talented Dicky

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Talented dicky.

Your posts seem to be little other than trolling, soap boxing and back seat modding all of which breach the forum charter. Don't post in this thread again.

Bye bye gays. Enjoy your bubble.

Ash885

Talented Dicky wrote: »

Bye bye gays. Enjoy your bubble.

You created an account solely for one specific LGBT thread? M'kay....plenty more room in the bubble for me!

Incidentally, happy pride for any Londoners who are on the boards. Anyone see the PR campaign/posters around this year's events?

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

You created an account solely for one specific LGBT thread? M'kay....plenty more room in the bubble for me!

Incidentally, happy pride for any Londoners who are on the boards. Anyone see the PR campaign/posters around this year's events?

Are they the really **** posters that there was a lot of controversy about?

gizmo81

Ash885 wrote: »

You created an account solely for one specific LGBT thread? M'kay....plenty more room in the bubble for me!

Incidentally, happy pride for any Londoners who are on the boards. Anyone see the PR campaign/posters around this year's events?

i just had a look there. Jaysus that wasn't thought through. Particularly awful are:

2. “My gay friends make me more attractive by association” – Marv, Vauxhall

1. “Being homophobic is sooo gay” – Tori, Leyton

https://www.autostraddle.com/london-prides-love-happens-here-posters-ranked-by-what-the-hell-were-they-thinking-384746/

Annasopra

gizmo81 wrote: »

i just had a look there. Jaysus that wasn't thought through. Particularly awful are:

2. “My gay friends make me more attractive by association” – Marv, Vauxhall

1. “Being homophobic is sooo gay” – Tori, Leyton

https://www.autostraddle.com/london-prides-love-happens-here-posters-ranked-by-what-the-hell-were-they-thinking-384746/

There is worse

My sister is Gay, I'm straight, together we're graight
My friend is gay, his parents are cool with it as long as he marries a lawyer
Boys who love boys, girls who love girls, I love pizza so what do I care?
Befriend a gay person and win a prize - friendship