11 deaths this year , will we get the facts?

jon1981

The public need details on each of these "accidents", there has to be lessons learned for both cyclist and motorist. It's not good enough to publish a small inquest summary on the 15th page of a broadsheet a year after each incident, we need a full report summary involving all these accidents on what the hell is going on.

Is it bad luck? Lack of road awareness? Bad safety equipment? Bad driving?

A full campaign is needed here, where the hell is the voice of cycling Ireland in all this?

Annie get your Run

I was literally just thinking the exact same thing. I'm sure there's an element of not wanting to further traumatize either of the families involved but there must be a way to do it so that everyone can learn.

deandean

Yes, absolutely.
From the small amount of info that's been published, I have noticed a change in the last year. Most fatal cycling accidents had traditionally involved lorries, and noticeably construction trucks. However the majority of the more recent accidents seem to have involved cars.

jon1981

Obviously the most recent death is too soon to talk about, but I'm thinking this took place in a built up area at rush hour, cars can't be going that fast surely ... how does an accident result in a death?

Do we all need to start writing emails and letters to Shane Ross to get some action here?!

micar

jon1981 wrote: »

Do we all need to start writing emails and letters to Shane Ross to get some action here?!

Would be good.

Would anyone be articulate enough to write such a document which we can all copy and either write or email directly to Shane Ross?

07Lapierre

micar wrote: »

Would be good.

Would anyone be articulate enough to write such a document which we can all copy and either write or email directly to Shane Ross?

Just send Shane Ross an invite to Dublin Cycling Campaigns AGM!

http://www.dublincycling.ie/

Leroy42

micar wrote: »

Would be good.

Would anyone be articulate enough to write such a document which we can all copy and either write or email directly to Shane Ross?

I wouldn't worry about that. More important to get something down on "paper" on get it sent than worry about style of writing.

It is the weight of the outcry rather than the outcry itself that is the trigger on these things.

Don't wait for the perfect e-mail or letter. Do one yourself and send it off.

It will be ignored anyway, at best a cut and paste reply. But if enough people contact them enough then they will be forced to do something if for no other reason than to avoid looking like they ignored it should something happen in the future.

This is what I am sending.

Dear Minister Ross,

There has been an significant increase in the number of cyclists being killed on our roads in the last number of months.

Can you assure me that steps are being taken to get a full understanding of circumstances in the accidents and whether any learnings take be taken.

What plans are in place to advise the public of these findings.

Finally, do you have a plan for reducing the fatalities and are there timelines for the plans to be implemented.

Yours ......

ED E

Already raised this question

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057740486/1/#post103499410

mr spuckler

jon1981 wrote: »

but I'm thinking this took place in a built up area at rush hour, cars can't be going that fast surely

unfortunately cars do drive way too fast in built up areas / housing estates.

the new 30kpkh / slow zones initiative is currently a complete waste of time because as ever there's no enforcement. new speed limit signage has been erected at the front of my estate showing the child playing with a ball etc and yet i constantly still see people belting up and down our estate much faster than 30kph.

however, as we saw in the case of the cyclist who collided with a pedestrian in the Phoenix park last year speed doesn't have to be an issue and may well not have been in the latest case.

i fully agree with your general point though, i want to know how and why these deaths are occuring.

Annie get your Run

Leroy42 wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about that. More important to get something down on "paper" on get it sent than worry about style of writing.

It is the weight of the outcry rather than the outcry itself that is the trigger on these things.

Don't wait for the perfect e-mail or letter. Do one yourself and send it off.

It will be ignored anyway, at best a cut and paste reply. But if enough people contact them enough then they will be forced to do something if for no other reason than to avoid looking like they ignored it should something happen in the future.

This is what I am sending.

Dear Minister Ross,

There has been an significant increase in the number of cyclists being killed on our roads in the last number of months.

Can you assure me that steps are being taken to get a full understanding of circumstances in the accidents and whether any learnings take be taken.

What plans are in place to advise the public of these findings.

Finally, do you have a plan for reducing the fatalities and are there timelines for the plans to be implemented.

Yours ......

I think I'll add to that that this has happened on his watch...

Macy0161

jon1981 wrote: »

Obviously the most recent death is too soon to talk about, but I'm thinking this took place in a built up area at rush hour, cars can't be going that fast surely ... how does an accident result in a death?

Will it even be properly investigated?

A number of the deaths this year (not just yesterdays), have quoted Gardai as saying it is "just a tragic accident". If they're starting investigations with that mindset, I really doubt they're going to come up with anything helpful.

ford2600

jon1981 wrote: »

Do we all need to start writing emails and letters to Shane Ross to get some action here?!

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.

Expecting a change in driver behavior by writing to a minister is a poor spending of time.

In spite of the fact that most cyclist deaths are due to errors/careless/dangerous driving as a cyclist you can do a lot to mitigate your risk of any accident.

This forum is obsessed with arguing with motorists rather than proactively pushing roadcraft, information on safe route selection etc. Look how busy thus thread was (despite it being essential reading). Sometime a driver, despite looking actually doesn't see you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057643386

Between experienced users there are millions of miles commuting safely among Dublin's trafffic roads. Put that knowledge to use rather than asking that self serving incompetent khunt in Stepaside to help you


EDIT;
On the cause of deaths this year they are probably the same as every other year. The steps you as a cyclist can do to mitigate them are the same as they have always been.

Johnny Jukebox

Shane actually lives in a lovely house in Enniskerry but spends a lot of his time standing on the traffic island in Stepaside village holding a sign about re-opening the Garda station in one hand and messing with his phone with the other hand...

magicbastarder

jon1981 wrote: »

It's not good enough to publish a small inquest summary on the 15th page of a broadsheet a year after each incident, we need a full report summary involving all these accidents on what the hell is going on.

the main question i'd ask is where this would be published; if on the CI site or dublin cycling campaign, etc., it likely going to be preaching to the converted, though that could be a first step.

cruizer101

ford2600 wrote: »

Sometime a driver, despite looking actually doesn't see you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057643386

That article you linked is very good, really should be mandatory reading for driving licence, here is direct link to it.

Link to Article

Weepsie

It's great when a Minister can get a Garda station for his constituents reopened. There are dozens more which just as great a need however.

tunney

Its going to end up with mandatory hi viz and mandatory helmets. Problem solved. Onus shifted off road management and driver training.

tomasrojo

tunney wrote: »

Its going to end up with mandatory hi viz and mandatory helmets. Problem solved. Onus shifted off road management and driver training.

That's how quite a few people would like to "solve" the problem. It's a worry. I mean, if you put people off cycling, you "solve" the cycling "problem", but since cycling is an effective solution to a raft of other problems, it's not a good approach. But if your brief is to address road traffic deaths, deaths through inactivity or air pollution is the problem of another department.

The number of deaths is ten, by the way. This probably sounds like heartless pedantry, but it also illustrates how small changes to small totals (even minor categorisation decisions; one cyclist death has become a pedestrian wheeling a bike) change the percentages disproportionately.

07Lapierre

ford2600 wrote: »

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.


EDIT;
On the cause of deaths this year they are probably the same as every other year. The steps you as a cyclist can do to mitigate them are the same as they have always been.

Good Idea:
I made a few suggestions already:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103475279&postcount=38

Annie get your Run

ford2600 wrote: »

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.

Expecting a change in driver behavior by writing to a minister is a poor spending of time.

In spite of the fact that most cyclist deaths are due to errors/careless/dangerous driving as a cyclist you can do a lot to mitigate your risk of any accident.

This forum is obsessed with arguing with motorists rather than proactively pushing roadcraft, information on safe route selection etc. Look how busy thus thread was (despite it being essential reading). Sometime a driver, despite looking actually doesn't see you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057643386

Between experienced users there are millions of miles commuting safely among Dublin's trafffic roads. Put that knowledge to use rather than asking that self serving incompetent khunt in Stepaside to help you


EDIT;
On the cause of deaths this year they are probably the same as every other year. The steps you as a cyclist can do to mitigate them are the same as they have always been.

That is a very interesting article, I don't disagree with your comment about mitigating risks but that will go only so far. We still need to somehow get driver attitude changed. Apart from anything else if we don't do something now it will only get worse and god help us all if it gets worse and worse. The way we are heading now is moving towards total removal of cyclists from our roads and it won't take long a the current rate.

listermint

ford2600 wrote: »

Venting on here won't do sh1t.

If you want to do something positive here; maybe
* Start a roadcraft thread.
* start an initiative with your club to teach basic road craft
* encourage other clubs to do it.

Expecting a change in driver behavior by writing to a minister is a poor spending of time.

Wasnt the cyclist involved in yesterdays incident heavily involved in promoting roadcraft safe cycling.

None of this gets answers for people btw, Writing to the minister to make sure that steps are taken to actually understand the cause of accidents is helpful and more helpful than what you are suggesting.

Without knowing the facts of an accident your roadcraft is misdirected.

loyatemu

there have been a lot of deaths this year, but we won't know the causes until there have been inquests held.

Presumably though we could go back to (say) 2015 and compile the inquest result for all the deaths that year to try and get some sort of picture of what are the common causes (maybe someone like the RSA has already done this).

Even so, this would be an incomplete picture as it only covers accidents where the cyclist died.

kenmc

tunney wrote: »

Its going to end up with mandatory hi viz and mandatory helmets. Problem solved. Onus shifted off road management and driver training.

And when that fails to stop cyclists being killed, what's next I wonder?

07Lapierre

kenmc wrote: »

And when that fails to stop cyclists being killed, what's next I wonder?

Cyclists will be banned from public roads. :mad:
(Mandatory use of cycle lanes)

ED E

07Lapierre wrote: »

Cyclists will be banned from public roads. :mad:
(Mandatory use of cycle lanes)

tomasrojo

Based on Australian experience, helmets cannot fail; they can only be failed. (People still aren't wearing "their" helmets; they're wearing them wrong; they really are working, there's just been a massive increase in bad behaviour by cyclists that cancels out the protective effect; etc.)

ford2600

listermint wrote: »

Wasnt the cyclist involved in yesterdays incident heavily involved in promoting roadcraft safe cycling.

None of this gets answers for people btw, Writing to the minister to make sure that steps are taken to actually understand the cause of accidents is helpful and more helpful than what you are suggesting.

Without knowing the facts of an accident your roadcraft is misdirected.

Every fatality is investigated by a specialist unit of the Gardaí. They are all trained at De Montfert University in investigating road accidents. They close road and collect all evidence, impound vehicles/bicycles/interview everyone. It's pretty thorough, do detailed digital road survey. Prosecution follows if the evidence warrants it.

Once investigation is over, making those documents public would be as good as you could hope for.

I've investigated a lot of road deaths; the same sh1t keeps happening. Year in year out.

The information on how to build safe roads, cycle lanes is all there. The training for drivers/cyclists is all there. We have enough information.

07Lapierre

ED E wrote: »

Y'see! in your photo that's clearly the cyclists own fault! No helmet and No hi-viz!

Leroy42

07Lapierre wrote: »

Cyclists will be banned from public roads. :mad:
(Mandatory use of cycle lanes)

Yes, I think that will be along shortly.

Even look at some of the advice given out - I don't disagree with it but it paints a picture of cyclists being in the way- Choose a safer/quieter route, avoid right hand hurns etc.

Why? I am as much a part of traffic as the next guy and it is part of the licence that motorists assume responsibility for the safety of those they share the road with in as much as possible.

It is a simple solution, a vote getter, and will have clear results (less fatalities is hard to argue with).

There will no review of how totally unsuitable trucks are for an urban environment, no review of lack of adequate infrastructure (the left turn from Dame Street to Georges street which means that Buses can turn if other traffic is turning right off Georges Street for example)

the_pen_turner

it is one of my bug bears as well. what good it total no of fatalities if the reasons aren't known. this goes for all road users.


the problem is that there is a reluctance to blame the person that died for the crash
we need to stop that mind set so that we can look at the causes of crashes and see how we can reduce them

tomasrojo

I can't get onto some off-road cycle tracks with the bakfiets. The kerbs are dished all wrong, and if I approach at any type of speed, I'll turn the bike over. And it scarcely seems worth gingerly negotiating my way onto some of them, because I'll only have to negotiate my way back onto the road within about 20m anyway.