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11 deaths this year , will we get the facts?

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    #152
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    ED E wrote: »
    But thats an utter pipe dream. Wont happen. Cant happen.

    It can happen perfectly easily. The thing that's stopping it is that it has become customary for people to store their private property - cars - on publicly owned roadways for large parts of the day and night. If people had to store their property in their own premises the roads would be cleared.

    Driving a car isn't going to get cheaper, either… as the first greenways come into being and it becomes clear that cycling allied with public transport is a better mode for most short-distance travel, the balance will shift.


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    #153
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,083 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    jon1981 wrote:
    Is it bad luck? Lack of road awareness? Bad safety equipment? Bad driving?


    I think the success of getting more people to cycle is playing a major part in the increase number of deaths.
    We need better education for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians. Everyone is supposed to know the rules of the road. Even pedestrians are supposed to know. I'd love to see it as an actual subject in primary school with an exam at the end. Possibly an exam every year of school even if you passed it previous years


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    #154
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,769 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I think the success of getting more people to cycle is playing a major part in the increase number of deaths.
    The argument often made is that with Safety in Numbers you can get rises in the numbers cycling without a proportional rise in fatalities. But that's a rule of thumb, not a law of Nature. It's possible that the fatality rate (deaths per 100 million km travelled) hasn't changed much at all. It's definitely looks worse than last year, but I think last year was a little below the average.

    Since the year isn't over, we don't yet know how out of line with previous years this year's total is going to be. If no more cyclists die between now and the end of December, it'll be a pretty average year. If it continues the way it has, ending with around twenty, it'll be quite a bit above average.


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    #155
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I think the success of getting more people to cycle is playing a major part in the increase number of deaths.
    We need better education for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians. Everyone is supposed to know the rules of the road. Even pedestrians are supposed to know. I'd love to see it as an actual subject in primary school with an exam at the end. Possibly an exam every year of school even if you passed it previous years

    I'm not sure that the focus on education at school age will work. We generally don't rely on school age education for other safety critical areas. We need to move on from once in a lifetime driving test to regular retests, like the NCT - particularly for regular offenders.


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    #156
    mrcheez
    Registered Users Posts: 13,778 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    Deedsie wrote: »
    On my commute on arterial routes to and in Dublin City centre I would prefer to be removed from motorists entirely than to try achieve the impossible task of gaining their respect.
    ED E wrote: »
    But thats an utter pipe dream. Wont happen. Cant happen.

    Live in Sutton and work in Eastpoint Business Park.

    It's entirely possible :D


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    #157
    Corca Baiscinn
    Registered Users Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Corca Baiscinn


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    I'm not sure that the focus on education at school age will work. We generally don't rely on school age education for other safety critical areas. We need to move on from once in a lifetime driving test to regular retests, like the NCT - particularly for regular offenders.

    I agree re school age education. I don't think it's that people don't know. i imagine that most people could probably rattle off the relevant rule. We know lots of things in an intellectual sense but disregard that knowledge when it comes to behaviour, e.g smoking or eating junk-food or using our smart-phones way into the night. Some of it is culture a sense of entitlement, "my journey is important", "I'm late", "Why are all these people holding me up?" More if it has to be lack of enforcement, everybody else seems to doing whatever the infringement is and few people are penalised.
    Education, then if that fails to work, penalties seems to be the approach of the poiice services in NI and UK who are working on the overtaking issue. I think I saw a bit on the WMP blog re speeding drivers having to go into school to a children's court to explain themselves!


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    #158
    Turbulent Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    I think the lack of cyclist roadcraft is a key factor in general. Motorists are trained in a fairly standard way, and roads are dominated by them, hence the norms (good and bad) are self-evident. By contrast, cyclists almost always learn as children when they don't really need road skills, and then travel as minority road users as adults.

    In my own case, I started commuting by bike in my twenties. Despite being an experienced driver, I had no real clue about cyclist roadcraft until I read "Cyclecraft". It massively improved how safe and enjoyable my commutes were.

    To be clear, there's no victim blaming here. I've no idea why those poor people died. I'm certain though that you can't rely on driver behaviour or infrastructure to magically improve. Your own skillset as a cyclist is the one area you can actually control.


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    #159
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Turbulent Bill wrote: »
    I think the lack of cyclist roadcraft is a key factor in general. Motorists are trained in a fairly standard way, and roads are dominated by them, hence the norms (good and bad) are self-evident. By contrast, cyclists almost always learn as children when they don't really need road skills, and then travel as minority road users as adults.

    In my own case, I started commuting by bike in my twenties. Despite being an experienced driver, I had no real clue about cyclist roadcraft until I read "Cyclecraft". It massively improved how safe and enjoyable my commutes were.

    To be clear, there's no victim blaming here. I've no idea why those poor people died. I'm certain though that you can't rely on driver behaviour or infrastructure to magically improve. Your own skillset as a cyclist is the one area you can actually control.

    All the roadcraft in the world won't stop motorists from passing too close, or not checking their mirrors, turning across cycle lanes etc.

    And what is roadcraft anyway, is the cyclist using the road instead of the dangerous cycle lane displaying good or poor roadcraft? Depends on your prespective really, to the cyclist it is good roadcraft but to the motorist being "held up" it's poor roadcraft.


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    #160
    Shoes and Boots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭Shoes and Boots


    Some of cyclists go in couple or 3 having chats on country roads.Rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side, near to kerb. I always keep reasonable gap of at least 1 mtr or use another line for giving cyclist good and safe space, reducing my speed on wet weather, or stay behind waiting for good moment for overtaking. But because some cyclists drive as couple or 3 in line, having chat is too complicated pass them or keep distance overtaking even on country roads. If I will have choose between my live or having nice chat persons on bicycles,I will will not choosing them lifes because road is not place for chats, road is for drivers.


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    #161
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Some of cyclists go in couple or 3 having chats on country roads.Rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side, near to kerb. I always keep reasonable gap of at least 1 mtr or use another line for giving cyclist good and safe space, reducing my speed on wet weather, or stay behind waiting for good moment for overtaking. But because some cyclists drive as couple or 3 in line, having chat is too complicated pass them or keep distance overtaking even on country roads. If I will have choose between my live or having nice chat persons on bicycles,I will will not choosing them lifes because road is not place for chats, road is for drivers.

    In all my years of driving I've yet to come across cyclists cycling 3 a breast. I'm not saying it's never happened but it is very easy to get confused about how many abreast a group is. Most drivers are confused.

    Also your last bit about roads being for drivers....you are wrong!


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    #162
    andy69
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭andy69


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    ...road is for drivers.

    wow! :eek: just...wow! you couldn't be more wrong.

    Motorways are for drivers (clue's in the name...get it?). roads are for EVERYONE. If someone wants to go for a walk, ride a horse, ride a bike, go for a jog... roads for for public use. They are public roads


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    #163
    ella23
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭ella23


    The lack of cycling trails in this country drives me demented. It leaves vulnerable cyclists having to cycle on country winding roads which are treacherous for both the cyclist and motorist if either of them came around a bend too quickly. I am not a cyclist myself but a motorist. I would love to take up cycling but I would be too nervous to take on a road, especially around my part of the country. There is no place i can actually do it if i wanted to. I have driven up the likes of Molls Gap in Killarney and come across numerous cyclists and have had a few near misses (neither my fault nor cyclists, but there is literally no place to pull in)

    Down in North Kerry there has been campaign after campaign to continue on the Great southern trail, a place where walkers, runners and cyclists alike would have 30 odd miles of uninterrupted trails to use, but will any of the county councils help with this, not a hope in hell. I was in Slovakia recently and for a country that would not have as much money as us, it is brilliant. They actually have a full route (One of many routes around the country) for cyclists that trails over sixty miles along the Danube, from Bratislava to nearly Vienna, well in to Austria anyway. We actually have nothing here.


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    #164
    Shoes and Boots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭Shoes and Boots


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    In all my years of driving I've yet to come across cyclists cycling 3 a breast. I'm not saying it's never happened but it is very easy to get confused about how many abreast a group is. Most drivers are confused.

    Also your last bit about roads being for drivers....you are wrong!
    Agree about last one,road is for everybody who has use it, but not for chats putting others at risk. And don't forget, rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side,near to kerb. Drivers doesn't drive by 2 or 3 in line having chats, nobody didn't gave exceptions to cyclists.


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    #165
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,608 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Drivers doesn't drive by 2 or 3 in line having chats, nobody didn't gave exceptions to cyclists.
    except that cyclists are explicitly allowed cycle two abreast. so somebody did give an exception to cyclists.


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    #166
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Some of cyclists go in couple or 3 having chats on country roads.Rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side, near to kerb.


    NO. The law says:
    "17.—(1) A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or a pedestrian, approaching traffic to pass him on his right and overtaking traffic to overtake him on his right."

    There is no mention of distance to the kerb!


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    #167
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,608 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    well, the rules of the road has this to say about cycling:

    " Keep clear of the kerb – riding clear will make you more visible and help reduce unsafe overtaking."

    not exactly 'cycle near to the kerb' in anyone's book.


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    #168
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,430 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Agree about last one,road is for everybody who has use it, but not for chats putting others at risk. And don't forget, rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side,near to kerb. Drivers doesn't drive by 2 or 3 in line having chats, nobody didn't gave exceptions to cyclists.
    The law specifically allows cyclists to drive 2 abreast, 3 abreast when overtaking

    How close do you drive to the kerb? Cyclists will "take the lane" to avoid muppet drivers trying to overtake with too little clearance. There's the other side of the road that can be used assuming it's clear and safe to do so

    Sound like you don't really have much experience of cycling


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    #169
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Agree about last one,road is for everybody who has use it, but not for chats putting others at risk. And don't forget, rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side,near to kerb. Drivers doesn't drive by 2 or 3 in line having chats, nobody didn't gave exceptions to cyclists.

    Wrong! Cyclists can cycle two abreast:

    "29.—(1) A pedal cyclist shall not, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists (and then only if to do so will not endanger other traffic or pedestrians) drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cycles driving abreast."


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    #170
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Agree about last one,road is for everybody who has use it, but not for chats putting others at risk. And don't forget, rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side,near to kerb. Drivers doesn't drive by 2 or 3 in line having chats, nobody didn't gave exceptions to cyclists.

    What risk are cyclists putting you in?

    If you commence a risky manoeuvre that's on you, not the cyclists.


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    #171
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,608 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Agree about last one,road is for everybody who has use it, but not for chats putting others at risk. And don't forget, rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side,near to kerb. Drivers doesn't drive by 2 or 3 in line having chats, nobody didn't gave exceptions to cyclists.
    this is what you get when you come into a forum full of experienced cyclists and try to lecture them about the road traffic law/ROTR.


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    #172
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,430 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    andy69 wrote: »
    wow! :eek: just...wow! you couldn't be more wrong.
    Actually cyclists are "drivers" for the purpose of road traffic legislation


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    #173
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    ella23 wrote: »
    The lack of cycling trails in this country drives me demented. It leaves vulnerable cyclists having to cycle on country winding roads which are treacherous for both the cyclist and motorist if either of them came around a bend too quickly. I am not a cyclist myself but a motorist. I would love to take up cycling but I would be too nervous to take on a road, especially around my part of the country. There is no place i can actually do it if i wanted to. I have driven up the likes of Molls Gap in Killarney and come across numerous cyclists and have had a few near misses (neither my fault nor cyclists, but there is literally no place to pull in)

    Down in North Kerry there has been campaign after campaign to continue on the Great southern trail, a place where walkers, runners and cyclists alike would have 30 odd miles of uninterrupted trails to use, but will any of the county councils help with this, not a hope in hell. I was in Slovakia recently and for a country that would not have as much money as us, it is brilliant. They actually have a full route (One of many routes around the country) for cyclists that trails over sixty miles along the Danube, from Bratislava to nearly Vienna, well in to Austria anyway. We actually have nothing here.

    I hate to hear people saying they would like to cycle but "the roads are too dangerous". The roads are not dangerous....people driving motorised vehicles too fast on narrow road and/or driving too fast for the driving conditions are what make cycling dangerous.

    This is why cycling in a group (and cycling 2 abreast) is safer.


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    #174
    Shoes and Boots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭Shoes and Boots


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    NO. The law says:
    "17.—(1) A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or a pedestrian, approaching traffic to pass him on his right and overtaking traffic to overtake him on his right."

    There is no mention of distance to the kerb!
    No problem about that !
    So please cycle as you say :

    A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic

    I had problem on roundabout one day,when huge group of cyclists came from right and started "jumping " on my car bonnet forcing me stop the car.Also I was in situation when artic truck on front of me,had huge problem on country road,because couple man and woman had nice chat on bicycles.How could driver take asked 1.5 mtr distance from cyclists when is no place on road ?
    There is plenty advertisement about how cyclists dying,I would like see the advertisements how cyclists put other in danger.


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    #175
    I love Sean nos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Some of cyclists go in couple or 3 having chats on country roads.Rules of the road says clearly Drive on left hand side, near to kerb. I always keep reasonable gap of at least 1 mtr or use another line for giving cyclist good and safe space, reducing my speed on wet weather, or stay behind waiting for good moment for overtaking. But because some cyclists drive as couple or 3 in line, having chat is too complicated pass them or keep distance overtaking even on country roads. If I will have choose between my live or having nice chat persons on bicycles,I will will not choosing them lifes because road is not place for chats, road is for drivers.
    Remarkable. So much wrong and so badly written.


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    #176
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    No problem about that !
    So please cycle as you say :

    A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic

    I had problem on roundabout one day,when huge group of cyclists came from right and started "jumping " on my car bonnet forcing me stop the car.Also I was in situation when artic truck on front of me,had huge problem on country road,because couple man and woman had nice chat on bicycles.How could driver take asked 1.5 mtr distance from cyclists when is no place on road ?
    There is plenty advertisement about how cyclists dying,I would like see the advertisements how cyclists put other in danger.

    What danger are these cyclists putting you in?

    Also, cyclists coming from the right would already be on the roundabout and so would have right if way. Did you cut them off perchance?


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    #177
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    No problem about that !
    So please cycle as you say :

    A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic

    I had problem on roundabout one day,when huge group of cyclists came from right and started "jumping " on my car bonnet forcing me stop the car.Also I was in situation when artic truck on front of me,had huge problem on country road,because couple man and woman had nice chat on bicycles.How could driver take asked 1.5 mtr distance from cyclists when is no place on road ?
    There is plenty advertisement about how cyclists dying,I would like see the advertisements how cyclists put other in danger.

    I agree...you have a problem!

    If you can't over take safely, don't overtake!


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    #178
    Shoes and Boots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭Shoes and Boots


    amcalester wrote: »
    What danger are these cyclists putting you in?

    Also, cyclists coming from the right would already be on the roundabout and so would have right if way. Did you cut them off perchance?
    They came on roundabout behind me,there was race day as far I understood.Only couple from about 50 of them was showing signals.Cyclists putting me in danger if they will be hurt or will forcing me take more place overtaking them on road what could cause problem with coming traffic from front.


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    #179
    Shoes and Boots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭Shoes and Boots


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    I agree...you have a problem!

    If you can't over take safely, don't overtake!
    Tell that delivery driver who has delivery "windows" and have drive from behind because somebody decided make nice chat.If you want get chat,get chat outside the road not on it.


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    #180
    I love Sean nos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    I had problem on roundabout one day,when huge group of cyclists came from right and started "jumping " on my car bonnet forcing me stop the car.
    Really? :rolleyes:
    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    Also I was in situation when artic truck on front of me,had huge problem on country road,because couple man and woman had nice chat on bicycles.
    What problem?


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    #181
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,430 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Shoes and Boots wrote: »
    They came on roundabout behind me,there was race day as far I understood.Only couple from about 50 of them was showing signals.Cyclists putting me in danger if they will be hurt or will forcing me take more place overtaking them on road what could cause problem with coming traffic from front.
    I'm confused now. What danger were you in, and who forced you to overtake?


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