11 deaths this year , will we get the facts?

magicbastarder

i think this is one of those 'quit while you're behind' situations.

07Lapierre

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

Tell that delivery driver who has delivery "windows" and have drive from behind because somebody decided make nice chat.If you want get chat,get chat outside the road not on it.

You not make nice chat.

amcalester

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

They came on roundabout behind me,there was race day as far I understood.Only couple from about 50 of them was showing signals.Cyclists putting me in danger if they will be hurt or will forcing me take more place overtaking them on road what could cause problem with coming traffic from front.

They came from behind or from the right? You're contradicting yourself, traffic already on the roundabout has right of way.

You're in no danger from being hurt by a cyclist while sitting in your moving 2 tonne metal cage.

Cyclist don't force you to do anything, you are in control of your vehicle so only overtake when it is safe to do so.

I shouldn't have to explain that last bit to you, its common sense.

Beasty

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

If you want get chat,get chat outside the road not on it.

Why? I'm entitled to chat to someone alongside me. There is no law against it, as there is no law against cycling 2 abreast

Do you understand Irish road laws at all?

Arcade_Tryer

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

There is plenty advertisement about how cyclists dying

It's not advertisement. It's the national news. Reporting the death of cyclists.

magicbastarder

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

huge group of cyclists came from right

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

They came on roundabout behind me

you're really going to have to clarify this.

I love Sean nos

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

Tell that delivery driver who has delivery "windows" and have drive from behind because somebody decided make nice chat.If you want get chat,get chat outside the road not on it.

Is this you?

Shoes and Boots

Beasty wrote: »

Why? I'm entitled to chat to someone alongside me. There is no law against it, as there is no law against cycling 2 abreast

Do you understand Irish road laws at all?

Yes,I do,but some cyclists does not.There is no respect to others from cyclists,no signals at all and plenty complaining after. You could cycle 2 or 5 in line having chat,the only advantage you will have because you will have plenty witneses.But since last accident with cyclists I have camera fitted on front of my car and if something will happens,they could blame them selfs.I finished.

amcalester

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

Yes,I do,but some cyclists does not.There is no respect to others from cyclists,no signals at all and plenty complaining after. You could cycle 2 or 5 in line having chat,the only advantage you will have because you will have plenty witneses.But since last accident with cyclists I have camera fitted on front of my car and if something will happens,they could blame them selfs.I finished.

Why not put some clips of your interactions with cyclists up here so we can see how often you are being put at risk?

I love Sean nos

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

If you want get chat,get chat outside the road not on it.

Being a passenger in your car/van/whatever must be fun.

"Did you see the game last night?"
"NO MAKE NICE CHAT! GET OFF THE ROAD!"

Beasty

Shoes and Boots wrote: »

I finished.

I will take you at your word and request all other posters to now ignore your comments. If you do start raising them again I will assume you are trolling

Any questions, drop me a PM

Thanks

magicbastarder

back OT, it's interesting that the zombie thread resurrected earlier was a similar 'cyclist deaths double' thread from two or three years ago - are we now bouncing along the bottom of cyclist fatality stats? as in, is high single digits/low double digits as low as we can expect, especially with the increase of both cyclists and motorised traffic on the roads?

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

back OT, it's interesting that the zombie thread resurrected earlier was a similar 'cyclist deaths double' thread from two or three years ago - are we now bouncing along the bottom of cyclist fatality stats? as in, is high single digits/low double digits as low as we can expect, especially with the increase of both cyclists and motorised traffic on the roads?

We keep going on about Copenhagen and Amsterdam as examples of cycling nirvana! But I wonder how many cyclists are injured/killed every year?

Beasty

magicbastarder wrote: »

back OT, it's interesting that the zombie thread resurrected earlier was a similar 'cyclist deaths double' thread from two or three years ago - are we now bouncing along the bottom of cyclist fatality stats? as in, is high single digits/low double digits as low as we can expect, especially with the increase of both cyclists and motorised traffic on the roads?

I'm hoping this year is a blip as that's exactly what has happened over recent years when overall figures have been low resulting in difficulty in drawing conclusions. However we always get a lot of publicity in years of significant increase and it tend to goa lot quieter when the figure reduces

I certainly suspect though that increases on both fronts are probably affecting the figures quite a lot. Equally I'm finding less patience amongst motorists as they find less space to themselves on the roads with some resort to riskier manoeuvers

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

back OT, it's interesting that the zombie thread resurrected earlier was a similar 'cyclist deaths double' thread from two or three years ago - are we now bouncing along the bottom of cyclist fatality stats? as in, is high single digits/low double digits as low as we can expect, especially with the increase of both cyclists and motorised traffic on the roads?

Yeah, I do find it a bit unproductive (though completely human) to keep alternating news reports every other year:
Cyclists fatalities down! Three cheers for everyone!
Cyclists fatalities up! What can we do?

For example, we have unusually low totals (5) in 2010 and 2013, which, almost inevitably, meant higher fatalities in 2011 and 2014, and resulting news coverage of how cycling is getting more dangerous. And then it gets safer again, and then more dangerous again ...

And, as often noted here, talking about percentage rise and falls is pretty uninformative with small numbers.

But at the same time, if we end the year with a total of twenty (which is of course possible), that would be the worst total since the late 90s, albeit the fatality rate would still be lower than then, given the greater number of cyclists now.

tomasrojo

07Lapierre wrote: »

We keep going on about Copenhagen and Amsterdam as examples of cycling nirvana! But I wonder how many cyclists are injured/killed every year?

The number of cycling fatalities per 100 million km travelled is a little lower than in Ireland (which is about 12, I think ... I'll just check and get back to you), but that flatter Ireland's record a little, as both NL and DK have a lot more vulnerable cyclists in the mix (young children, especially unaccompanied, and the elderly).

tomasrojo

http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/ctc_safety_in_numbers_0.pdf

The graph on the first page proper of that has the Irish cycling deaths per 100 million km about the same as the Dutch and Danish rates (~10), though the data is probably old, and, as I said, we have fewer really vulnerable cyclists in the mix.

Arcade_Tryer

The focus on fatalities, while both very serious and very sad, is also probably not the most pertinent indicator of cycling safety. The near misses thread for example tells you a lot more about cycling in Ireland than the threads about fatalities and deaths. Think of how many near death experiences occur everyday in Ireland for cyclists!

ella23

07Lapierre wrote: »

I hate to hear people saying they would like to cycle but "the roads are too dangerous". The roads are not dangerous....people driving motorised vehicles too fast on narrow road and/or driving too fast for the driving conditions are what make cycling dangerous.

This is why cycling in a group (and cycling 2 abreast) is safer.

I would like to disagree with you on that. I'm from north Kerry, most roads in this part of the country are small side roads, no matter what speed you are going, and i can tell you, I don't take those roads too fast, they are treacherous, and two people cycling abreast can be hazardous on those roads, not that I mentioned cycling two abreast at any point in my first post. That is neither here nor there, I didn't come on here to give out about that. I have the patience to wait until they can pull in or i can pass out safely. Most people do down here. But try one of those roads in a car going the speed that is adequate for said road and see what I'm talking about. Neither the cyclist or the motorist are given much of a chance.

Turbulent Bill

amcalester wrote: »

All the roadcraft in the world won't stop motorists from passing too close, or not checking their mirrors, turning across cycle lanes etc.

And what is roadcraft anyway, is the cyclist using the road instead of the dangerous cycle lane displaying good or poor roadcraft? Depends on your prespective really, to the cyclist it is good roadcraft but to the motorist being "held up" it's poor roadcraft.

It won't stop bad driving, but it might teach good bike positioning on the road, how to spot when a car might pull out etc. All of these contribute to cyclist safety but are rarely taught.

"Cyclecraft" is mainly from the cyclist's perspective, including when to avoid cycle paths that are potential deathtraps.

Chuchote

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

I think the lack of cyclist roadcraft is a key factor in general.

Could you summarise the best points of Cyclecraft? Might buy it if it sounds good.

ella23 wrote: »

The lack of cycling trails in this country drives me demented.

(snip) will any of the county councils help with this, not a hope in hell.

The next county council elections are in 2019. I hope all people dedicated to safe roads are preparing to back candidates who are similarly dedicated, and who will push through safe cycleways.

I'm surprised at people mocking Shoes and Boots for his (I assume his, not her) English; he's clearly not a native speaker. I would be really hurt if people in France mocked my basic French the same way. And it would be more helpful to direct him to the principles of defensive driving.

As for the argument about whether it's mainly cyclist behaviour or driving behaviour that is causing the many close passes and crashes, may I quote this letter in The Irish Times this last week:

I am in La Rochelle in France on holiday. It has a pro-cycling culture and cyclists feel safe. Cyclist traffic is considerably heavier compared to Dublin. Many children cycle to school. Yet most cyclists do not wear high-visibility clothing and fewer again wear helmets. Cyclists are permitted to cycle on one-way roads against the flow of traffic. The cycling infrastructure is better but it is far from perfect and, as in Dublin, cyclists are forced to cycle alongside motor vehicles in parts of the city. However, unlike Dublin, it appears that motorists respect cyclists, and are mindful of them. Likewise, cyclists respect motorists, and this is reflected in their behaviour on the road.
Irish policymakers should travel to places like La Rochelle to review their transport user model. They will quickly recognise that our transport culture needs to change to protect vulnerable commuters like cyclists. Otherwise more cyclists will die on their way to work this year.

Chuchote

Delivery drivers are under disgraceful pressure. Some of their working conditions are inhuman:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/amazon-drivers-defecate-in-vans-to-save-time/news-story/a77b4fcd79dfc6615f697974683298c5

DELIVERY drivers working for online e-commerce giant Amazon urinate and even defecate in their vehicles to meet crushing deadlines, an undercover journalist has claimed.

The BBC reporter, who worked at an Amazon depot in the UK for two weeks, said drivers often exceeded the speed limit to deliver up to 200 parcels a day on a fixed salary the equivalent of less than the minimum wage.

Here's a defensive driving course in Dublin - I don't know anything about this course so obviously can't recommend it or not - it's €99

https://www.leinsterdrivingcampus.ie/index.php/learn-to-drive-dublin-lessons/advanced-driving/onroad

The best driver I ever sat with was an RTE cameraman who drove a big van with heavy equipment all over the country. I was amazed as he failed to respond to people cutting in, wavering around the road, etc. "Why aren't you swearing and yelling and battering the horn?" I asked him, and he said that all RTE's drivers at that time were required to take a defensive driving course that taught them to remain calm and controlled on the road.

07Lapierre

ella23 wrote: »

I would like to disagree with you on that. I'm from north Kerry, most roads in this part of the country are small side roads, no matter what speed you are going, and i can tell you, I don't take those roads too fast, they are treacherous, and two people cycling abreast can be hazardous on those roads, not that I mentioned cycling two abreast at any point in my first post. That is neither here nor there, I didn't come on here to give out about that. I have the patience to wait until they can pull in or i can pass out safely. Most people do down here. But try one of those roads in a car going the speed that is adequate for said road and see what I'm talking about. Neither the cyclist or the motorist are given much of a chance.

tell me this then... what should be done to make these roads less treacherous?

flatface

What we need is the facts of these deaths. Pointless arguing about 2 abreast if no deaths were of anyone in a group. Pointless arguing about red light jumping if not one death was in those circumstances.

P_1

flatface wrote: »

What we need is the facts of these deaths. Pointless arguing about 2 abreast if no deaths were of anyone in a group. Pointless arguing about red light jumping if not one death was in those circumstances.

It's ridiculous, plane crashes have the cause published so people can learn. Why is the same logic not applied to cyclist deaths and motor accidents?

ED E

Deedsie wrote: »

And pedestrian deaths. There have been 15 pedestrians killed in collisions with motorists so far this year. Why are the causes never published? Doesn't make sense

Causes = blame = slow motions of the legal system

07Lapierre

Deedsie wrote: »

Get those damn cyclists (11 killed on the road so far this year) & pedestrians (15 killed on the road so far this year) out of motorists way and allow them drive as fast as they want obviously.

Of course! Your right! After all, cyclists or pedestrians don't pay road tax, insurance or have license's do they?

Beasty

07Lapierre wrote: »

Of course! Your right! After all, cyclists or pedestrians don't pay road tax, insurance or have license's do they?

Actually I've 4 cycling "licences", 3 of them with varying levels of insurance, and 2 cars both of which I pay my motor tax on:p:p

Send In The Robots

The simple fact is that most roads are only designed for motorised vechiles.

With the advent of faster and electric powered bikes, perhaps it's time to take a look at motorbikers. I.e. Using protective clothing.
Most bikers can come off at up to 35kmph, slide, roll and even tap a few walls without suffering any real damage. Not the case with cyclists.

Basic standard is leather outer skins, high-impact foam inserts with outer shells at main points (knees, elbows, shoulders etc).

But there is also next-gen materials such as D30, carbon fiber helmets, and compact Co2 airbags, that take this to the next level.

ED E

Send In The Robots wrote: »

The simple fact is that most roads are only designed for motorised vechiles.

They weren't, arguably aren't, and don't have to be. Cycles have used our roads for a lot lot longer than cars.