Renault losing out on a sale!

Evd-Burner

So my mum took a 24 hour test drive of the Renault Zoe and she really likes it, the car is a good size for her as she prefers smaller cars. However she has been driving an Audi A4 for the better part of 10 years so doesn't mind if she ends up getting something bigger than the Zoe.

We took the car on a long test drive to test the range on a trip mum takes on a regular basis. I reset the trip computer and we headed on our commute towards Limerick. We know that the trip door to door is 213km so the plan was to head from our house in Dublin down the M7 until we reached 107km and then turn back.

100% starting battery
18c outside temperature
107km to midway food court
100-120 km/h on average

48% battery left
35km to kildare outlet
120km/h
31% battery left

Charged at Kildare outlet for little over an hour and we had 80% battery. By the time we got home we average 19kw/100km. So we discovered even in the summer time mam would need to steps for 15 mins to be safe while driving at 120km/h, the big benefit here is that there was so much choice in where to stop as we could charge using the 22kw chargers and take full advantage! I explained to here that in winter time she will likely have to stop for 45 minutes at a 22kw or if she went with the QC upgrade that she could stop for 25 minutes at a QC, but there were not as many around.

Two things that we found annoying with the car
1. Is that once you go over 90km/h you can really here the outside air rushing past the car and creating a whistling noise, it just seemed like bad aerodynamics.
2. There is a very high pitched noise when the car charges from the public or home chargers, this isn't something I've ever noticed with the Leaf.

However all of the above was OK and mam was happy to go with the car. That was until we were given the trade in price for the Audi, they were only willing to knock off 1000 from the price, bringing it to a total of 27500 after delivery. We decided that the minimum we would take for the Audi is 4k, so she is now going to wait for the leaf 2 to be released and either go with that or see if it puts pressure on Renault to do some sort of scrappage for the Zoe.

FYI, the only things stopping her going for the Ioniq is that there are not enough CCS chargers on the journey and she would be worried that there would be a queue when she would be in a rush to get home, she would only need 15 minutes at a charger.

Toyotafanboi

Thread title is slightly deceiving IMO. Renault are losing a sale because they offered you a reasonably fair market trade in price and you declined. Good condition 10 year old A4's aren't retailing for €4k, so there's no chance of getting a €4k trade in offer for yours unless it's off some smoke and mirrors "scrappage deal".

I must go post a thread now in consumer issues, "Tesco losing out on a sale" because their groceries are more expensive than I want to spend.

Evd-Burner

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Thread title is slightly deceiving IMO. Renault are losing a sale because they offered you a reasonably fair market trade in price and you declined. Good condition 10 year old A4's aren't retailing for €4k, so there's no chance of getting a €4k trade in offer for yours unless it's off some smoke and mirrors "scrappage deal".

I must go post a thread now in consumer issues, "Tesco losing out on a sale" because their groceries are more expensive than I want to spend.

They are losing out on sale, title is accurate. Go start your grocery thread if your not happy, or head to Lidl/Aldi like the rest of us .

I don't see anything wrong with holding out for better scrappage from either Nissan or Renault if they decide to do it. Please explain your cloak and dagger statement, all I see there with scrappage is that the manufacturer makes a little less profit per car in the hope that they get more sales.

unkel

Out of interest, what is the 213km trip? And how often does she do it?

Most EVs lose a lot of range when driven at 120km/h. The only exceptions are the Teslas and Ioniq because of their aerodynamics. They still lose a lot of range but nowhere near what any other EV loses as a percentage of say EPA range. In good conditions think 10% or so, not 40% or so like in Leaf 1

How many Km do you think you would have got ?

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote: »

Out of interest, what is the 213km trip? And how often does she do it?

Most EVs lose a lot of range when driven at 120km/h. The only exceptions are the Teslas and Ioniq because of their aerodynamics

The trip is from Dublin to Limerick to visit family and it's once every 2-3 weeks. As we already have a charger in the house we would use the free installation for my grandmothers house in Limerick, there is also a Chademo/CCS/43kwAC within a km of her house. We just want to get there. She would probably go with the Ioniq but there is a long waiting list and they can't guarantee the scrappage as the sale would be in October. She is also worried with the lack of CCS on the route, but would still go for it in the hope that there would be more in the future. With the interim backup if the CCS was taken that there are 2 shopping spots where she could stop for 30-45mins to get enough to finish the journey safely.

Deleted User wrote: »

How many Km do you think you would have got ?

I reckon we would have gotten 210 to absolute zero. Probably more if we set it to 110km/h instead of 120km/h. If the garage were offering 3k for the Audi she would go for the Zoe.

n97 mini

The 41kw Zoe is out. That has a good bit more range than the 22kw.

If you reckon the Audi is worth 4k sell it privately. No need to let it stop her getting what she wants, if it is indeed a Zoe. More than one way to skin a cat!

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

The 41kw Zoe is out. That has a good bit more range than the 22kw.

I'd say with a price of €27.5k (after trade in) and range of 210km, we can be fairly sure he was test driving a Zoe 41kWh

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

The trip is from Dublin to Limerick to visit family and it's once every 2-3 weeks. As we already have a charger in the house we would use the free installation for my grandmothers house in Limerick, there is also a Chademo/CCS/43kwAC within a km of her house. We just want to get there. She would probably go with the Ioniq but there is a long waiting list and they can't guarantee the scrappage as the sale would be in October. She is also worried with the lack of CCS on the route

Her reluctance is understandable, the availability of them is ridiculous (production is far short compared to demand), but this might help:

1. Range is doable in Ioniq without stopping to charge. Not at 120km/h, but very easily at 100-110km/h (obviously try the first time at 100km/h, she how much she has left etc.)

2. You don't need CCS to charge on the route. If you just need a tiny top up, any AC charger will do and will give you 3.6kW in 30 minutes. Not a lot, but enough for about 25-30km at motorway speeds. Obviously more if you charge longer.

3. I bought my Ioniq while the scrappage was there, but I took delivery when their was no longer a scrappage scheme. You do the deal when you buy, the dealer can't and won't change their mind on the price by the time they can deliver, it would be breach of contract. Also you could buy a €50 banger and use it as scrappage. Some dealers allow that. Sell your own car privately, to make a bit more (but you won't get anywhere near €4000 for it). A Zoe for €27.5k is absurd when she could have got an Ioniq for less. I bet she didn't test drive one?

4. She could get a demonstrator / cancellation car to avoid the waiting time. Several Ioniq owners on this forum managed to do just that.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

I'd say with a price of €27.5k (after trade in) and range of 210km, we can be fairly sure he was test driving a Zoe 41kWh

I don't know how much the car costs, but the 41kw range is surely better than 210km? That's 30kw Leaf territory.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't know how much the car costs, but the 41kw range is surely better than 210km? That's 30kw Leaf territory.

Yeah driven at 60-80 Kph.

Victor

Evd-Burner wrote: »

1. Is that once you go over 90km/h you can really here the outside air rushing past the car and creating a whistling noise, it just seemed like bad aerodynamics.

Is this because there is no engine noise?

grogi

Scrappage or not, I don't care how it is being called. The total cost to change was too big.

Renault is asking far to much for the Zoe. One could change to Ioniq, which is a superior car in almost any aspect, for less money.

Renault are doing the same thing - pricing themselves out of the market.

man_no_plan

If she orders the car for October delivery before the end of June she will get scrappage.

In all likelihood it'll be then before one can be delivered!

Pkiernan

Is electric a good fit for her really?
I think she'd be better off with a hybrid or a REX BMW to be honest.

ei9go

man_no_plan wrote: »

If she orders the car for October delivery before the end of June she will get scrappage.

In all likelihood it'll be then before one can be delivered!

There was a brand new one in Hyundai Waterford's showroom about 10 days ago.

man_no_plan

ei9go wrote: »

There was a brand new one in Hyundai Waterford's showroom about 10 days ago.

Was it white?

goz83

Pkiernan wrote: »

Is electric a good fit for her really?
I think she'd be better off with a hybrid or a REX BMW to be honest.

Why? She makes a longer journey about 20 times per annum, which can be done with one stop. Most people would stop for a coffee/wee break anyway.

Evd-Burner

So she has decided to wait until the first week in October to make a decision. See what the new Nissan Leaf has to offer.

unkel wrote: »

Her reluctance is understandable, the availability of them is ridiculous (production is far short compared to demand), but this might help:

1. Range is doable in Ioniq without stopping to charge. Not at 120km/h, but very easily at 100-110km/h (obviously try the first time at 100km/h, she how much she has left etc.)

2. You don't need CCS to charge on the route. If you just need a tiny top up, any AC charger will do and will give you 3.6kW in 30 minutes. Not a lot, but enough for about 25-30km at motorway speeds. Obviously more if you charge longer.

3. I bought my Ioniq while the scrappage was there, but I took delivery when their was no longer a scrappage scheme. You do the deal when you buy, the dealer can't and won't change their mind on the price by the time they can deliver, it would be breach of contract. Also you could buy a €50 banger and use it as scrappage. Some dealers allow that. Sell your own car privately, to make a bit more (but you won't get anywhere near €4000 for it). A Zoe for €27.5k is absurd when she could have got an Ioniq for less. I bet she didn't test drive one?

4. She could get a demonstrator / cancellation car to avoid the waiting time. Several Ioniq owners on this forum managed to do just that.

She didn't test drive the Ioniq, couldn't find a dealer that have one to test drive. I looked at the calculations for the Ioniq, it look like at 110km/h in the summer she might just get there on a single charge, but a 15 minute top up on 7kw would give an extra little bit of range for comfort. She makes this stop anyway to stretch the legs. In the winter she would probably have to stop for longer on 7kw but only 10 minutes of the CCS was free. The Ioniq is looking like a the main contender as my Dad really likes it.

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't know how much the car costs, but the 41kw range is surely better than 210km? That's 30kw Leaf territory.

It was the 41kw one, I was absolutely shocked it only made 210km at 120km/h. I expected better than 19kw/100km.

Victor wrote: »

Is this because there is no engine noise?

No it's defenitely the car, I drive my leaf over that speed nearly every day and I've never heard that noise, even when I'm 130+km/h on those private roads :cool:

grogi wrote: »

Scrappage or not, I don't care how it is being called. The total cost to change was too big.

Renault is asking far to much for the Zoe. One could change to Ioniq, which is a superior car in almost any aspect, for less money.

Renault are doing the same thing - pricing themselves out of the market.

I agree, I think the mid spec should be around the 23k mark with delivery and related costs, sales would certainly be much better then.

You'd expect better than 19 Kwh/100 Kwh at 120 Kph ? that's not bad in my opinion or getting 210 Kms at that speed.

I'd get about 90 odd at that speed in the 24 Kwh Leaf.

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

She didn't test drive the Ioniq, couldn't find a dealer that have one to test drive.

That can be a bit of a problem as not all (30) Hyundai dealers in Ireland sell the Ioniq, let alone have one available for test drives.

I urge you and your parents though before you make your minds up, to test drive one. Preferably for 24h or more, and preferably doing your mothers longer trip in it. Perhaps drive to Dublin and get the test car here, do the trip to Limerick and next day back to Dublin to pick up her own car

New car is a big commitment. It's going to cost a lot of money and I'd be a fool to say that the first years depreciation on a new EV isn't going to be big. It will be big. So if she changes her mind after buying a brand new car, she will lose a lot of money changing it for something else. Best make sure she gets the right car for her.

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote: »

That can be a bit of a problem as not all (30) Hyundai dealers in Ireland sell the Ioniq, let alone have one available for test drives.

I urge you and your parents though before you make your minds up, to test drive one. Preferably for 24h or more, and preferably doing your mothers longer trip in it. Perhaps drive to Dublin and get the test car here, do the trip to Limerick and next day back to Dublin to pick up her own car

New car is a big commitment. It's going to cost a lot of money and I'd be a fool to say that the first years depreciation on a new EV isn't going to be big. It will be big. So if she changes her mind after buying a brand new car, she will lose a lot of money changing it for something else. Best make sure she gets the right car for her.

That's the plan, gonna start ringing around to see if any of the dealers have the Ioniq for test driving.

Anybody who has done a test drive please state where you have done the test drive, might make booking one a little easier. I'm based in North county Dublin.

Michael Lyng in Carlow have one if you fancy the travel, remember, the Ioniq also charges 20 Kw faster than the Zoe at the fast chargers.

But......the Zoe has longer range to begin with.

No way you'll get the same 220 Kms in the Ioniq at 120 kph. The best I managed was 15.3 Kwh/100 kms on my 207 Km test drive which matches pretty closely the EPA test result that was at 100-110-80 Kph and suggests a max range of a bout 180 kms, And I also average close to the EPA test in the Leaf, though probably not any more since I put the boot down now I don't have to worry about range for commuting.

All that tech in the Ioniq your Mother probably won't bother with anyway but she would appreciate the 65 Kw charging on DC.

Faster charging Ioniq V longer range Zoe ?

man_no_plan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Michael Lyng in Carlow have one if you fancy the travel, remember, the Ioniq also charges 20 Kw faster than the Zoe at the fast chargers.

But......the Zoe has longer range to begin with.

No way you'll get the same 220 Kms in the Ioniq at 120 kph. The best I managed was 15.3 Kwh/100 kms on my 207 Km test drive which matches pretty closely the EPA test result that was at 100-110-80 Kph and suggests a max range of a bout 180 kms, And I also average close to the EPA test in the Leaf, though probably not any more since I put the boot down now I don't have to worry about range for commuting.

All that tech in the Ioniq your Mother probably won't bother with anyway but she would appreciate the 65 Kw charging on DC.

Faster charging Ioniq V longer range Zoe ?

Fitzpatrick's in Naas have one too

unkel

Mooney's on the Long Mile Road (biggest Hyundai dealer in the country afaik) have 2 test drive Ioniqs. One of them is available for 24h test drives. Got mine from there (but didn't buy my car there)

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

The best I managed was 15.3 Kwh/100 kms on my 207 Km test drive?

I rarely see 15kWh/100km and I drive the car hard (always in sport mode and a lot of max acceleration and I don't necessarily stick to speed limits on quiet motorways). More like about 12kWh/100 average (range 235km)

But who is the OP to believe???

Your one day test drive in the wind and rain in winter or the 10 Ioniq owners who post here regularly???

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I rarely see 15kWh/100km and I drive the car hard (always in sport mode and a lot of max acceleration and I don't necessarily stick to speed limits on quiet motorways). More like about 12kWh/100 average (range 235km)

But who is the OP to believe???

Your one day test drive in the wind and rain in winter or the 10 Ioniq owners who post here regularly???

In being honest, no disrespect, my own test drive would beat the words of owners on the internet

Evd-Burner

So I've emailed 10 dealers across the country to firstly try and get a test drive withing the next few days and secondly to try and see if any of them have one available anytime soon.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I rarely see 15kWh/100km and I drive the car hard (always in sport mode and a lot of max acceleration and I don't necessarily stick to speed limits on quiet motorways). More like about 12kWh/100 average (range 235km)

But who is the OP to believe???

Your one day test drive in the wind and rain in winter or the 10 Ioniq owners who post here regularly???

According to you're response to my review I was driving in a hurricane and flood in the artic !

It wasn't winter it was March and starting at 10 Deg C and half of the trip was 13 deg C, pretty average conditions, wet for the first 62 Kms of 207 the rest was dry. It was breezy I can get the met.ie reports of the day. But wind is plentiful in Ireland it

I also don't think it's too wise to give people opinions based on ideal driving circumstances such as milder weather and driving in a manner that promotes greater efficiency as I said I was not hypermiling and drove it in a manner most people would consider normal.

I'm going to arrange another test drive soon in the milder weather.

The EPA test is also more realistic of real life driving which I matched pretty closely and also did in the Leaf until I now just plant the throttle on the motorway and as far as I'm aware the EPA test does not include winter driving.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what EVD-Burner averages in the Ioniq or his Mother especially in the warmer weather.

man_no_plan

12.5 was what I got for about180 km on the test drive I did. Id reckon 120 of that country roads over to training and and brought one of the kids to a match. My commute is all back roads too. The rest was motorway from and to the garage, I opened her up well on both journeys.

I averages 12-13 or so on some short trips, 20 odd kms the same I could get 13-13.5 in the leaf but I would advise people deciding whether to buy to assume the EPA average.

When I took the Ioniq out the night before I drove it the 207 Kms I achieved again 15-15.5 kwh/100 kms, I'd have to go back to my review to get the exact figure. So I'd say the EPA test is pretty accurate.

I'll test drive it again hopefully within the next 2-2.5 weeks.

The Black Oil

I think it's Mope in the Ioniq thread who is based in Lusk. Might be able to suggest a dealer in NCD.

Evd-Burner

We have a 24 hour test drive this week. Going to do a trip to Limerick.

Planning to drive at 110kmph, stop at an SCP on the way and charge for 30 minutes. Charge at the FCP in limerick until at 100% (only 5 minutes from where will stay overnight) and then head back to Dublin, again stopping for 30 minutes at an SCP and driving at 110kmph.

The reason for 110kmph and stopping at an SCP is I want to show her worst case scenario in the winter months. IE having to reduce speed due to the reduced range in the cold and having to stop for 30 minutes at an SCP as the FCP's are usually taken.

I've explained to her the situation with the FCP's on the way down and that charges will be introduced eventually which will hopefully increase the number of CCS chargers, especially at key commuting locations. She is happy to pay a fee to charge on these journeys as it will help guarantee the availability FCP's.

Got a price from Hyundai of 25495 with the trade in, could have a white Ioniq by then end of July.

Starting with 40 Kwh and driving slower is always better than having to charge.

However the Ioniq charges fast, 23-90% in 25 mins (not guaranteed at all charge points but on my test at the Wicklow point and has been confirmed at other locations) , so you could get 180 kms on one charge then travel a further 160 Kms with 25 min charge.

BoatMad

She is happy to pay a fee to charge on these journeys as it will help guarantee the availability FCP's.

would she pay more then the current price of diesel ??

Please lets not debate charges that do not apply and turn this into another ESB charges load of BS.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Please lets not debate charges that do not apply and turn this into another ESB charges load of BS.

what Im trying to say m when people say " Id gladly pay etc " , is what they mean

Evd-Burner

BoatMad wrote:

would she pay more then the current price of diesel ??

Obviously she doesn't want to pay over the odds for it. I said the worst the charges could be for 30mins is 8-10 euro. Although I hope they are less!

BoatMad

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Obviously she doesn't want to pay over the odds for it. I said the worst the charges could be for 30mins is 8-10 euro. Although I hope they are less!

8-10 euros would make it about twice the price of diesel !!

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

8-10 euros would make it about twice the price of diesel !!

The battery in your calculator must have died BoatMad

30 minutes in Ioniq will give you about 70% charge (20-90%), so about 70% * 200km EPA = 140km range

A very frugal diesel about the same size as Ioniq will do about 6l/100km so 140km would use 8.4l at EUR1.20 per l that would be EUR10

So still 25% cheaper than diesel, not twice the price

And yes, I'd gladly pay 8 eur for 30 minutes myself if that would virtually guarantee me a working FCP without waiting times every 40km on every motorway and national road in the country

Not only that but the Ioniq would benefit from a per minute charge over , for instance , the 24 Kwh Leaf because it charges much faster and it charges a lot faster too than the 30 Kwh leaf.

So the faster you can charge the more you get per Kwh, however, pay per Kwh and you pay the same no matter what charger power.