AirBNB vs Rental

James 007

My friend has a rental property which he rents throughout the year. Its a 3 bedroom property with attic studyroom and he uses the sitting room as a 4th bedroom. The details of the house are below. He has heard alot about people gone the AirBNB route instead of the rental. He has been renting year on year and every time he has to move lock stock and barrel. He now thinks he would like to take the ground floor for himself and AirBNB out the other rooms. Front door access will be common and the downstairs hallway will be common only. This would give him a more settled life but I would appreciate any thoughts or if anyone has gone down this route, the pros and cons, the rental vs AirBNB profits etc. Its also something I taught for my own place but I believe that it is more hassle than its worth, maybe I am wrong.

Any taughts welcome, his house is in Drumcondra, city side approx. 20mins walk to the spire

Downstairs:
Front sitting room (his own future bedroom)
Family room (his own future sitting room)
Dining room
Kitchen
Shower room, toilet, sink basin
External Utility room
Garden

Upstairs, 1st floor:
Single Bedroom
Double Bedroom
Twin Bedroom
Bathroom, bath/electric shower, wash basin, toilet

Attic Room:
Study Bedroom

DubCount

There are a few drivers which are pushing landlords into AirBnB.

The biggest factor is the difference between "tenants" and "licensees". When you let out a property entirely, you have tenants. That means registration with the RTB, additional cost and the risk of a bad tenant squatting in your house without paying rent while you spend big bucks on a 2 year legal process to legally evict them. People staying in your house on short term holiday rentals are licensees. You can evict them "with reasonable notice" because they are licensees, if you have any problems. This is not relevant in what you describe, because if the landlord lives in the house, the other people staying there are Licensees even if they are staying long term.

The other difference is financial. If you can obtain a good occupancy level on AirBnB, there is simply more money to be made than long term letting.

There are lots of threads on AirBnB letting here covering insurance, antisocial behaviour. Well worth a look.

Grumpypants

It's not clear if your friend is renting a house and wants to sub let the other rooms, or if they own the house and want to rent a portion and are comparing Air bnb over long term.

If they own the property and live in it, I would go the long term rent a room option. You can earn 12,000 (might be up to 14k) tax free renting out a room in your house. You don't have a huge turn over of tenants, worry over random weirdo showing up, being at home to hand over keys, cleaning rooms/linen/towels that come with short term letting.

Air bnb you need planning permission, you pay tax on it all (at about 60%) but you can earn more because you charge holiday rates. But most of that is wiped out in tax, cleaning and repairs.

Murrisk

My understanding is that the OP's friend isn't a landlord, that he is renting and hoping to sublet.

James 007 wrote: »

He has been renting year on year and every time he has to move lock stock and barrel.

But it's not that clear now that I read the whole post back.

James 007

Grumpypants wrote: »

It's not clear if your friend is renting a house and wants to sub let the other rooms, or if they own the house and want to rent a portion and are comparing Air bnb over long term.

Murrisk wrote: »

My understanding is that the OP's friend isn't a landlord, that he is renting and hoping to sublet.

But it's not that clear now that I read the whole post back.

He owns the house and bought it when prices were high in the boom. He currently rents a house with one other person, as this is his preference rather than living in his own house with 4-5 other people. He has just turned 40 so his renting with 4-5 persons is over a while back.

His preference is now to try and get back into the house, own the ground floor & garden as he is getting tired of moving, he wants stability in one place as constantly moving, packing takes its tole.

davindub

James 007 wrote: »

He owns the house and bought it when prices were high in the boom. He currently rents a house with one other person, as this is his preference rather than living in his own house with 4-5 other people. He has just turned 40 so his renting with 4-5 persons is over a while back.

His preference is now to try and get back into the house, own the ground floor & garden as he is getting tired of moving, he wants stability in one place as constantly moving, packing takes its tole.

Don't know how successful he expects airbnb to be, but you can take 14k tax free with rent a room which = 35k airbnb income @ marginal income tax rate (more if you add in PRSI, etc).

Even if renting with 2 others, it may be close to the net effect of renting to 4/5 persons and renting another apartment.

April 73

He should start by working out what is the minimum income he needs from the property in order to live there himself & factor in that the rent he is paying now could be used to pay down his mortgage.
A tax free €14k a year is hefty through rent-a-room if he is on the higher rate of tax. Look for tenants who need a place for working in Dublin but who often head back to their hometowns for weekends.
Air bnb is taxable & he would have the hassle of running it and clearing up after guests.

jamesthepeach

He can rent a room each to a couple and come to the understanding that he won't go upstairs and they wont go downstairs. Half the house to him, half the house to them and rent a room benefits.

Also if he does Airbnb it would probably be better to outsource it. It's a lot of work if you do it yourself. Get an agent and he never has to see the people in the other half of the house for Airbnb.

April 73

jamesthepeach wrote: »

He can rent a room each to a couple and come to the understanding that he won't go upstairs and they wont go downstairs. Half the house to him, half the house to them and rent a room benefits.

Also if he does Airbnb it would probably be better to outsource it. It's a lot of work if you do it yourself. Get an agent and he never has to see the people in the other half of the house for Airbnb.

Except the kitchen is downstairs & tenants/licensees/airbnb guests need access to the kitchen.

jamesthepeach

April 73 wrote: »

Except the kitchen is downstairs & tenants/licensees/airbnb guests need access to the kitchen.

I'm.sure there are ways and means if there is enough money in it. It's not that expensive to put in another kitchen compared to the potential profit. I loved in a house that had the back split off from the front. The landlord several years earlier had basically split the house, but not.split it if you know what I mean. He had made an open plan living room/kitchen and a new bathroom, but left the room the bedrooms the same. Then he just put a door between the two Half's of the house and we used the back door.
The door was always left unlocked but no-one ever opened it from either side.

It all depends on the current layout of the ops house but it's probably easy enough to do if it's cost effective.

I would rather have licencees than Airbnb. But would choose either over having a tenant these days.

I'm sure the op will do what's best based on what's feasible. If we could see a plan of the house we could give some input.

James 007

jamesthepeach wrote: »

I'm.sure there are ways and means if there is enough money in it. It's not that expensive to put in another kitchen compared to the potential profit. I loved in a house that had the back split off from the front. The landlord several years earlier had basically split the house, but not.split it if you know what I mean. He had made an open plan living room/kitchen and a new bathroom, but left the room the bedrooms the same. Then he just put a door between the two Half's of the house and we used the back door.
The door was always left unlocked but no-one ever opened it from either side.

It all depends on the current layout of the ops house but it's probably easy enough to do if it's cost effective.

I would rather have licencees than Airbnb. But would choose either over having a tenant these days.

I'm sure the op will do what's best based on what's feasible. If we could see a plan of the house we could give some input.

The attached plan below shows the typical layout only the dining room is on the same line as the kitchen and the front bedroom is divided into a box room and a large twin room. The house is similar to a typical semi-d type layout with the box room over the front door.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=2up+2+down+floor+plan&sa=X&tbm=isch&imgil=5_sYzW5lG0KLEM%253A%253BDcvfpGfO1Q5hrM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.houzz.co.uk%25252Fdiscussions%25252F3035385%25252Fdownstairs-terrace-layout&source=iu&pf=m&fir=5_sYzW5lG0KLEM%253A%252CDcvfpGfO1Q5hrM%252C_&usg=__cBXV47i6IjGZpwOEvoM_RYEypls%3D&biw=1366&bih=623&ved=0ahUKEwjIgvyVv9zUAhVMORoKHUyKB80QyjcIMA&ei=y4FRWYjxDMzyaMyUnugM#q=2up+2+down+floor+plan&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CfE_15vgnNRvQIji0_1iAuB0w3_1P1Qubz-9Xo3hY8wrO_1oPpqydZMiq7H0v_1Popuhn5nmpn31cs8GqaLjtK0XPO2VCxyoSCbT-IC4HTDf8EeAKMysu-h5HKhIJ_1VC5vP71ejcR3hy7Qzq2Q3cqEgmFjzCs7-g-mhEhJr-1eJ5payoSCbJ1kyKrsfS_1EduQ916j3DRgKhIJ8-im6GfmeakRHuC7WJy093kqEgmffVyzwapouBFfhiGgKSfM1ioSCe0rRc87ZULHEZuJFNQLrYi6&imgrc=Sp5MFR52hnefiM:&spf=1498513874581

The plan he was thinking was to convert the front single box room into a kitchen. It already has a wall vent which could be used as the extract point.
A set of 2 plug in 13 amp electric double hobs would give enough for cooking. The biggest problem is putting in a kitchen sink and washing machine.

jamesthepeach

James 007 wrote: »

The attached plan below shows the typical layout only the dining room is on the same line as the kitchen and the front bedroom is divided into a box room and a large twin room. The house is similar to a typical semi-d type layout with the box room over the front door.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=2up+2+down+floor+plan&sa=X&tbm=isch&imgil=5_sYzW5lG0KLEM%253A%253BDcvfpGfO1Q5hrM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.houzz.co.uk%25252Fdiscussions%25252F3035385%25252Fdownstairs-terrace-layout&source=iu&pf=m&fir=5_sYzW5lG0KLEM%253A%252CDcvfpGfO1Q5hrM%252C_&usg=__cBXV47i6IjGZpwOEvoM_RYEypls%3D&biw=1366&bih=623&ved=0ahUKEwjIgvyVv9zUAhVMORoKHUyKB80QyjcIMA&ei=y4FRWYjxDMzyaMyUnugM#q=2up+2+down+floor+plan&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CfE_15vgnNRvQIji0_1iAuB0w3_1P1Qubz-9Xo3hY8wrO_1oPpqydZMiq7H0v_1Popuhn5nmpn31cs8GqaLjtK0XPO2VCxyoSCbT-IC4HTDf8EeAKMysu-h5HKhIJ_1VC5vP71ejcR3hy7Qzq2Q3cqEgmFjzCs7-g-mhEhJr-1eJ5payoSCbJ1kyKrsfS_1EduQ916j3DRgKhIJ8-im6GfmeakRHuC7WJy093kqEgmffVyzwapouBFfhiGgKSfM1ioSCe0rRc87ZULHEZuJFNQLrYi6&imgrc=Sp5MFR52hnefiM:&spf=1498513874581

The plan he was thinking was to convert the front single box room into a kitchen. It already has a wall vent which could be used as the extract point.
A set of 2 plug in 13 amp electric double hobs would give enough for cooking. The biggest problem is putting in a kitchen sink and washing machine.

I must have a look over it when I get home tonight. Plumbing isn't as difficult as you think either. Usually the plumber will have plenty of ideas of where to put stuff. You might need a designer to draw it all out for you, but I bet it can be done cheaply enough.
Ideally you want a situation where someone living in each half of the house doesn't need to go to the other half.

4ensic15

Putting in a second kitchen is the creation of a second dwelling. Planning permision needed and RTB involvement in the tenancy. It is a bonkers suggestion.

jamesthepeach

4ensic15 wrote: »

Putting in a second kitchen is the creation of a second dwelling. Planning permision needed and RTB involvement in the tenancy. It is a bonkers suggestion.

Read back what you just wrote there and have a laugh at yourself.

You can have as many cookers, sinks, bathrooms as you like. Next you'll be telling us you need planning permission for a king sized bed.

4ensic15

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Read back what you just wrote there and have a laugh at yourself.

You can have as many cookers, sinks, bathrooms as you like. Next you'll be telling us you need planning permission for a king sized bed.

You knowledge of the planning laws is very poor as evidenced by your previous posts. You knowledge of building is worse. You had two presumable purpose built apartments and all you can do is rant on about the RTB. Give us a break1

jamesthepeach

4ensic15 wrote: »

You knowledge of the planning laws is very poor as evidenced by your previous posts. You knowledge of building is worse. You had two presumable purpose built apartments and all you can do is rant on about the RTB. Give us a break1

The more I read your posts the more I laugh.
Ok, show me proof that the op is prohibited from adding cookers, sinks bathrooms to their house without planning.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

Putting in a second kitchen is the creation of a second dwelling. Planning permision needed and RTB involvement in the tenancy. It is a bonkers suggestion.

Absolute rubbish. Putting a second kitchen in the same dwelling certainly does not mean RTB involvement.

Build an unattached building or an extension without an internal door then RTB are on the cards but certainly no case whatsoever for involvement of the RTB in the setup described by the op (or any setup where an internal door connects the owner and room renters).

Lux23

Would he not be better off selling and buying a property that is more suitable for him?

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

Would he not be better off selling and buying a property that is more suitable for him?

To be honest I'd be looking to buy a house that you could rent out rooms while still maintaining a fair bit of privacy. There is 14k per year tax free to be made, it would pay your mortgage in many houses (or give you a massive yearly over payment if you wanted to rapidly pay off the mortgage.

I was looking at a 7 bedroom house last week, an old 5 bed house with basically a full modern 2 bed house build on the back but connected to the old house by an internal door. Live in the new house and rent out rooms in the 5 bed house separately for an accumulated value of 14k. Very nice little setup and how the current owner is running the show.

4ensic15

jamesthepeach wrote: »

The more I read your posts the more I laugh.
Ok, show me proof that the op is prohibited from adding cookers, sinks bathrooms to their house without planning.

I see now your reading skills are bad as well. I never said that so why should I show proof of it? I said adding a second kitchen is a sub division of a dwelling into two units, which does require planning. What you are proposing is having two distinct units in the one house. It is not simply the addition of cookers, sinks bathrooms. YTou have obviously never done any work of the kind you are recommending and have no experience of dealing with planners.

James 007

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. His taughts are:

1. Take over ground floor himself (looses a rented bedroom/kitchen/sitting room/shower room/garden/utility room)
2. Conversion of the single bedroom to a kitchen (looses a bedroom)
3. Convert 2 remaining bedrooms to accommodate 2 bunk beds each
4. Convert attic room to a sitting room

jamesthepeach

4ensic15 wrote: »

I see now your reading skills are bad as well. I never said that so why should I show proof of it? I said adding a second kitchen is a sub division of a dwelling into two units, which does require planning. What you are proposing is having two distinct units in the one house. It is not simply the addition of cookers, sinks bathrooms. YTou have obviously never done any work of the kind you are recommending and have no experience of dealing with planners.

Stop digging will you. You're making an idiot of yourself again and when caught out bullsh1tting yet again, trying to crawl out by pretending you were talking about something that nobody in the thread was talking about.

And for you information I have done work like I was suggesting, as have many others. And I have dealt with planners, like many others too.

And I am NOT proposing to have two distinct units in one house. If you read properly I am proposing to have one house with two sections where there is no need for a person living on one side to go to the other. Easily done. Done before, and being done in thousands of homes as we speak. All with no need for planning.

People are trying to give suggestions to the op. What they don't need is someone like you coming along and making stuff up that has nothing to do with their situation, in order to try to scare them out of their research, by changing the subject and pretending you are somehow knowledgeable abiut it when clearly you aren't. And you sir, are the master of that.

So we all have a choice. We can either try to help the op out in their research and give them some options,, ore can pretend we are the definitive authority on everything while adding nothing to the ops quest.

I choose to try and help.

4ensic15

jamesthepeach wrote: »

And I am NOT proposing to have two distinct units in one house.


If you read properly I am proposing to have one house with two sections where there is no need for a person living on one side to go to the other. .

You say you are NOT proposing to do something and then go on to propose just that.
Cop yourself on.

Putting kitchens in upstairs bedrooms is madness. It diminishes the market value of the property, breaches planning and means the owner has to register the second untit with the RTB. If you think otherwise you are living in a fantasy world. carry on with your inane laughter.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 and Jamesthepeach - quit squabbling. If you can't play nice- do not post in this thread again. This is your one and only warning.

jamesthepeach

4ensic15 wrote: »

You say you are NOT proposing to do something and then go on to propose just that.
Cop yourself on.

Putting kitchens in upstairs bedrooms is madness. It diminishes the market value of the property, breaches planning and means the owner has to register the second untit with the RTB. If you think otherwise you are living in a fantasy world. carry on with your inane laughter.

There you go again.
I think people can read back through the thread and draw their own conclusions about what you were trying to do and how wrong and childish you were.

So I'll be the bigger man and bury the hatchet now and just ask that we move on and just help the op in their quest for information.

Sorry op that I haven't got a chance to look at your plan yet, but I'm sure for the sake of your sanity after this thread it would be a good idea to run it by someone you know or are paying for advice, so that you know you have had good advice and not just internet advice. Possibly an interior designer with experience in segregating living space in the same house might be a good place to start.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

You say you are NOT proposing to do something and then go on to propose just that.
Cop yourself on.

Putting kitchens in upstairs bedrooms is madness. It diminishes the market value of the property, breaches planning and means the owner has to register the second untit with the RTB. If you think otherwise you are living in a fantasy world. carry on with your inane laughter.

Except you are wrong. If the owner can freely move between the units by internal door then they aren't seperate units. They will have the same esb and gas, same phone line and same address. They are not separate units.

In the case of the op I think it's even more clear. It looks like it's just going to be an extra kitchen for use by the people living upstairs and a word of mouth agreement that down stairs is for the owner and upstairs for the room renters. They would be entering through the same front door and there would be nothing separating the units aside from just walking up the stairs. You are living in dreamland if you think that would even have the remote possibility of falling under the RTB.

Claw Hammer

Pablo Eager Bus wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Putting a second kitchen in the same dwelling certainly does not mean RTB involvement.

Build an unattached building or an extension without an internal door then RTB are on the cards but certainly no case whatsoever for involvement of the RTB in the setup described by the op (or any setup where an internal door connects the owner and room renters).

I know a man who lived in a house with more than one kitchen and had a few residents in the same house. He was hauled to court by the corporation and was ordered to remove the kitchens. It was held that each kitchen meant a separate dwelling.
Separate dwelling means RTB.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I know a man who lived in a house with more than one kitchen and had a few residents in the same house. He was hauled to court by the corporation and was ordered to remove the kitchens. It was held that each kitchen meant a separate dwelling.
Separate dwelling means RTB.

I refuse to believe that as it's simply cannot be true. A kitchen is not the definition of a dwelling. For it to be a seperate dwelling I would need to be either detached from the main dwelling or have no internal access, have its own esb, gas and phone line, have a different address etc. What where the corporation even involved for.

The_Conductor

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I know a man who lived in a house with more than one kitchen and had a few residents in the same house. He was hauled to court by the corporation and was ordered to remove the kitchens. It was held that each kitchen meant a separate dwelling.
Separate dwelling means RTB.

Why would the corporation be involved at all?
Its not like you need planning permission to put in a kitchen (or a bathroom- or convert a room usage)..........
This just doesn't ring true.

Claw Hammer

The_Conductor wrote: »

Why would the corporation be involved at all?
Its not like you need planning permission to put in a kitchen (or a bathroom- or convert a room usage)..........
This just doesn't ring true.

Intensification. Creating more dwellings from one. He argued he lived there, and the occupants were his lodgers. No way was it allowed. A person can put in more fittings for their own use but when they install an extra kitchen for the exclusive use of a person or group distinct from another person or group in the same house it is subdivision. Conditions relating to granny flats also insist that there is a granny and when the granny exits that the granny flat is re-integrated back into the main dwelling.
See what this says about sub-dividing an existing dwelling.

http://www.onlinetradesmen.ie/Blog/Planning-Permission-in-Ireland-Explained-In-layman%E2%80%99s-terms.aspx?ArticleID=76&tabid=531

There are also issues of insurance to consider. The house insurer would regard it as material that they are informed of an additional kitchen as the risk profile will have changed.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Intensification. Creating more dwellings from one. He argued he lived there, and the occupants were his lodgers. No way was it allowed. A person can put in more fittings for their own use but when they install an extra kitchen for the exclusive use of a person or group distinct from another person or group in the same house it is subdivision. Conditions relating to granny flats also insist that there is a granny and when the granny exits that the granny flat is re-integrated back into the main dwelling.
See what this says about sub-dividing an existing dwelling.

http://www.onlinetradesmen.ie/Blog/Planning-Permission-in-Ireland-Explained-In-layman%E2%80%99s-terms.aspx?ArticleID=76&tabid=531

There are also issues of insurance to consi. The house insurer would regard it as material that they are informed of an additional kitchen as the risk profile will have changed.

Still doesn't add up for me. Once the owner can move freely between around the house via internal doors there is absolutely no argument for seperate dwellings. There is no issue renting a granny flat either once it has an internal door as the internal door means it is integrated into the house. It's rooms in the house same as a bathroom and a bedroom is.