child car seat law

burly

Hi,

Hoping someone can shed some light on this for me.

The Road Safety Authority in Ireland recommend on their website that booster cushion child seats can only be used for children weighing 22kg upwards.

But I am finding booster cushion on the market which state that they are suitable for weights of 15kg and up, and comply with the European legislation ECE R44/04.

So who's right?!

mirrorwall14

As far as I'm aware some countries laws go by height not weight so I imagine that is the difference. Low boosters generally use the the seat belt which personally I think would be a bit nuts for a 15kg child unless they are much older but small

However I strongly recommend keeping any child under 4 rear facing as long as possible and only switching to a high back booster when they exceed the height/weight limit on the seat. Have a read about rear facing if you can.

We currently have the joie stages, tilt and 360 spin. All rearface to approx age 4 and he is 2.5 with lots of growing room. He is 5 times safer in a crash rearfacing than forward facing.

Lucuma

I think the law in Ireland is very vague. It's more of a recommendation than a law. However you must have them in some kind of child seat I know that as I tried a quick nip to GAA class with my nephews once (before I had kids myself) and got penalty points for it! So they have to be in A child seat of some description I don't think guards prosecute for e.g. having a normal booster where a high back booster would be more appropriate or for having a newborn forward facing etc. So there's the law which is one thing (vague and basically just says they must be in an appropriate child seat) and then there's what's recommended (detailed instructions for each weight and height)

seamus

Actually the law is pretty specific. Any car seat must;

1. Meet EU standards UN ECE Regulation 4403/04 or
Regulation 129
2. Be appropriate for the height & weight of the child (as per the manufacturer's indication)
3. Be correctly installed

That's it.

There are additional rules around putting rear-facing seats in the front, but I know nobody who puts kids in the front.

The confusion and vagueness is really around what seats are safe and which ones safer than others.

In terms of RSA recommendations - they're just that, recommendations. They're not the law. If the manufacturer rates the seat as being suitable for your child's weight & height, then it's legal.

burly

Thanks for the replies.

I have 2 kids (aged 2 and 4), which one due next month, and tried fitting 3 car seats across the back of my Avensis, and only way I can do it, is to us 2 narrow booster cushions (without the high back) for my 2 year old and 4 year old. Both are over 15 kgs, so technically can go into a booster cushion according to the manufacturer. It will be tight, and clipping in seat belts is a nightmare.

Going by your 3 criteria, of

1. Meet EU standards UN ECE Regulation 4403/04 or Regulation 129 - Yes it does, says so on the box!
2. Be appropriate for the height & weight of the child (as per the manufacturer's indication) - Yes it does, says so on the box!
3. Be correctly installed - This is where the issue is. To get this to work, there is a bit of maneuvering of seat belts involved, and I couldn't honestly say the seat belts buckles are in the correct position, and not being strained. My own conclusions are the child seats could not be classed as 'correctly installed'.

The 'correctly installed' bit is very subjective though. It 's down to personal opinion.

Not to mention the fact that the RSA guidelines further muddy the waters. They are going around doing these 'check it fits' clinics around the country, and no doubt plugging the 22kgs limit for booster cushions, while inside the very shopping center they are outside, a shop will be selling booster cushions for kids weighing 15kgs!

mirrorwall14

burly wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

I have 2 kids (aged 2 and 4), which one due next month, and tried fitting 3 car seats across the back of my Avensis, and only way I can do it, is to us 2 narrow booster cushions (without the high back) for my 2 year old and 4 year old. Both are over 15 kgs, so technically can go into a booster cushion according to the manufacturer. It will be tight, and clipping in seat belts is a nightmare.

Going by your 3 criteria, of

1. Meet EU standards UN ECE Regulation 4403/04 or Regulation 129 - Yes it does, says so on the box!
2. Be appropriate for the height & weight of the child (as per the manufacturer's indication) - Yes it does, says so on the box!
3. Be correctly installed - This is where the issue is. To get this to work, there is a bit of maneuvering of seat belts involved, and I couldn't honestly say the seat belts buckles are in the correct position, and not being strained. My own conclusions are the child seats could not be classed as 'correctly installed'.

The 'correctly installed' bit is very subjective though. It 's down to personal opinion.

Not to mention the fact that the RSA guidelines further muddy the waters. They are going around doing these 'check it fits' clinics around the country, and no doubt plugging the 22kgs limit for booster cushions, while inside the very shopping center they are outside, a shop will be selling booster cushions for kids weighing 15kgs!

Can you have the infant in the front seat with the airbag off?

Have you tried going to/contacting tony kealys or In Car Safety in Belfast for recommendations?

Edit: Google threads seem to say pretty much impossible to get three car seats across the back of an avensis. A lot of people saying they had to get rid of it

Anne_cordelia

burly wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

I have 2 kids (aged 2 and 4), which one due next month, and tried fitting 3 car seats across the back of my Avensis, and only way I can do it, is to us 2 narrow booster cushions (without the high back) for my 2 year old and 4 year old. Both are over 15 kgs, so technically can go into a booster cushion according to the manufacturer. It will be tight, and clipping in seat belts is a nightmare.

Going by your 3 criteria, of

1. Meet EU standards UN ECE Regulation 4403/04 or Regulation 129 - Yes it does, says so on the box!
2. Be appropriate for the height & weight of the child (as per the manufacturer's indication) - Yes it does, says so on the box!
3. Be correctly installed - This is where the issue is. To get this to work, there is a bit of maneuvering of seat belts involved, and I couldn't honestly say the seat belts buckles are in the correct position, and not being strained. My own conclusions are the child seats could not be classed as 'correctly installed'.

The 'correctly installed' bit is very subjective though. It 's down to personal opinion.

Not to mention the fact that the RSA guidelines further muddy the waters. They are going around doing these 'check it fits' clinics around the country, and no doubt plugging the 22kgs limit for booster cushions, while inside the very shopping center they are outside, a shop will be selling booster cushions for kids weighing 15kgs!

You might be ticking the legal box (I'm not sure) but using a booster cushion for a 2 year old is not safe. Hell even a 4 year old isn't safe on a booster cushion.
How can you trust a 2 year old to sit with a seatbelt and not move around not to mention what would happen in an accident....

jlm29

Holy god, I wouldn't dream of putting a 2 year old on a booster cushion, no matter how much they weighed. If they fall asleep they'll have no ability to remain upright and have very little protection in the event of a crash. I'd put a 4 yo on a high backed booster alright, if they were mature enough to leave the buckles alone, and stay sitting up for the duration.
You'd be much safer, and still legal putting one in the front. If you can turn off the airbag you can put the infant carrier there. If the airbag can't be deactivated, you can put one of the others in a Forward facing seat or high backed booster with the air bag on in the front passenger seat. If you have another adult passenger, they can wedge between the two in the back if necessary.
You could also look at a very narrow car seat. The diono radian 5 is suitable for newborns rear facing, and might be an option if you got two of them side by side with a narrow booster by the door.

goat2

What do I do about a child that was three in December and is rather tall, the belts cannot extend any further for me, and so it does not fit him, would hurt his shoulders, the seat is a beaut, but the belts are just driving me mad

mirrorwall14

goat2 wrote: »

What do I do about a child that was three in December and is rather tall, the belts cannot extend any further for me, and so it does not fit him, would hurt his shoulders, the seat is a beaut, but the belts are just driving me mad

What is his height/weight centiles? What seat? Rear or forward facing currently?

I’d be very cautious moving a just turned three year old into a seatbelt only seat tbh. My lad is sensible but even now at over 4 he is only in the seatbelt high back booster for short journeys as I can’t trust him to sit correctly in it for longer than half an hour. He gets tired

goat2

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What is his height/weight centiles? What seat? Rear or forward facing currently?

I’d be very cautious moving a just turned three year old into a seatbelt only seat tbh. My lad is sensible but even now at over 4 he is only in the seatbelt high back booster for short journeys as I can’t trust him to sit correctly in it for longer than half an hour. He gets tired

He is wearing 5 yr clothes, but I would not dare try to change from child seat to normal belts, he is to giddy and young I feel, also the trips are a lot nicer for him in seat as he can sleep, and on long journeys look out the window which entertain him,

oLoonatic

Visit the RSA roadshows, they will install and best advise you on this. Tonnes of research suggest rearward up to 7. Understandably you may not be able to do that.

http://www.rsa.ie/checkitfits

drunkmonkey

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Can you have the infant in the front seat with the airbag off?

Yes. Leave the airbag on if there forward facing it's illegal to have it on if there rear facing in the front.

We've 3, 1yr, 3yrs and Just 5, if we're all piled in the 5yr old is in the front.

drunkmonkey

oLoonatic wrote: »

Visit the RSA roadshows, they will install and best advise you on this. Tonnes of research suggest rearward up to 7. Understandably you may not be able to do that.

http://www.rsa.ie/checkitfits

Not possible in a lot of cars especially with 3 children and up. Both my guys have grown out of the rearward facing that was meant to do them for years and cost a fortune.

jlm29

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Not possible in a lot of cars especially with 3 children and up. Both my guys have grown out of the rearward facing that was meant to do them for years and cost a fortune.

It’s often possible with the right seats. There’s very narrow seats that rear face up to 25kg, but unfortunately people often don’t plot their child in a weight chart to see when they will hit limits for lower weight limit seats before they buy them. And some shops just want to sell, so don’t do it either.

jlm29

goat2 wrote: »

What do I do about a child that was three in December and is rather tall, the belts cannot extend any further for me, and so it does not fit him, would hurt his shoulders, the seat is a beaut, but the belts are just driving me mad

Do you know what weight he is, and what the weight limit of his seat is? The majority of seats have an 18kg weight limit. My little guy was 3 in December and is definitely more than 18kg. I have a 25kg seat for him, he has lots and lots of room to grow yet. You might need to look at a different seat

shesty

Sorry OP, we have the same.It doesn't work.Your options are to buy a 7 seater, put your infant in the front with the air bag off, or I believe Volvo do a car seat that fits with a high bsck booster and maxi cosi (or equivalent) ,but it would be for the four year old, and with the seatbelt, Not a harness.I believe the rules changed recently too, recommending 22kg for a min booster-only weight??I had this dilemma with a spare seat recently, and it was to do with my 4 year old.In the end I settled for a high back booster for her, I couldn't bring myself to have her on just a booster cushion (it was for a spare for my mother's car).Definitely no way a two year old should be on a cushion.

mirrorwall14

goat2 wrote: »

He is wearing 5 yr clothes, but I would not dare try to change from child seat to normal belts, he is to giddy and young I feel, also the trips are a lot nicer for him in seat as he can sleep, and on long journeys look out the window which entertain him,

I’d look into a 25kg rearfacing seat then if possible. I would join the ireland extended rear facing children and toddler Facebook group (ERF) to check for current offers but when I was looking at 25kg seats (my lad ended up not needing them as he’s still well under 18kg) I was looking at the Britax Two Way Elite as the more budget friendly option (ERF to 25kg, forward facing to 18kg with harness) but in your case possibly the Diono Radion 5 might be better. I believe it is narrower and also allows forward or rearward facing WITH harness up to 25kg

Anne_cordelia

shesty wrote: »

Sorry OP, we have the same.It doesn't work.Your options are to buy a 7 seater, put your infant in the front with the air bag off, or I believe Volvo do a car seat that fits with a high bsck booster and maxi cosi (or equivalent) ,but it would be for the four year old, and with the seatbelt, Not a harness.I believe the rules changed recently too, recommending 22kg for a min booster-only weight??I had this dilemma with a spare seat recently, and it was to do with my 4 year old.In the end I settled for a high back booster for her, I couldn't bring myself to have her on just a booster cushion (it was for a spare for my mother's car).Definitely no way a two year old should be on a cushion.

The original post is 2 years old.

goat2

Anne_cordelia wrote: »

The original post is 2 years old.

that may be, but I would rather not be opening up a new discussion, when there was already one here, we still use car seats, so same problems still going on for us, just looking for advice from people that know due to experience on here.
My child's seat is great, just that the harness is way too short for the child due to his height, he is tall for his age, saw him next to his age group, he looks like 2 yrs.' older than them in height
I am looking for advice on this, as the seat cost a lot when purchased, and child happy in it

mirrorwall14

goat2 wrote: »

that may be, but I would rather not be opening up a new discussion, when there was already one here, we still use car seats, so same problems still going on for us, just looking for advice from people that know due to experience on here.
My child's seat is great, just that the harness is way too short for the child due to his height, he is tall for his age, saw him next to his age group, he looks like 2 yrs.' older than them in height
I am looking for advice on this, as the seat cost a lot when purchased, and child happy in it

Definitely check with the ERF group on Facebook. If you know their height/weight and centiles they’ll tell you how long the seat will last etc

mirrorwall14

Also to add, I assume they aren’t wearing coats or bulky jumpers in the seat? They aren’t safe as you can’t tighten the straps properly

jlm29

goat2 wrote: »

that may be, but I would rather not be opening up a new discussion, when there was already one here, we still use car seats, so same problems still going on for us, just looking for advice from people that know due to experience on here.
My child's seat is great, just that the harness is way too short for the child due to his height, he is tall for his age, saw him next to his age group, he looks like 2 yrs.' older than them in height
I am looking for advice on this, as the seat cost a lot when purchased, and child happy in it

Have you weighed him and is he within the weight limit for the seat? All my kids are tall and in high 90s for centiles, and I’ve never had any of them be too big to close the straps comfortably, in any of the seats we’ve used over the years.
It doesn’t matter how great the seat is, if your child exceeds the weight limit for it, it’s not suitable, regardless of how much it cost

Anne_cordelia

goat2 wrote: »

that may be, but I would rather not be opening up a new discussion, when there was already one here, we still use car seats, so same problems still going on for us, just looking for advice from people that know due to experience on here.
My child's seat is great, just that the harness is way too short for the child due to his height, he is tall for his age, saw him next to his age group, he looks like 2 yrs.' older than them in height
I am looking for advice on this, as the seat cost a lot when purchased, and child happy in it

I was replying to Shesty as she replied to the original post.

shesty

There is a car seat thread in the stickies at the top of this forum.You might find more information there.