It's like Lanigan's ball: ASTI recommend rejection of LRA2

judeboy101

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-standing-committee-advises-rejection-of-draft-public-service-stability-agreement/

Sir123

Let's hope CEC drive it home in September. A positive step to say the least.

judeboy101

Sir123 wrote: »

Let's hope CEC drive it home in September. A positive step to say the least.

SC wasn't unanimous, CEC might well pass it

myshirt

The elimination of unequal pay is 100% within the control of the ASTI. Those objective to this have consistently asked that the older members be mature and take the pay cut they need to take to allign them with the new entrants. It was completely wrong in the first instance that any level of higher pay was retained for those members.

Why the ASTI persists with this false narrative of 'pay restoration', god only knows.

The ASTI is really letting the members and the students down.

Sir123

judeboy101 wrote: »

SC wasn't unanimous, CEC might well pass it

Hopefully they do. It would be a shame if the ASTI were the only Teachers' union to be inside LRA2. I have however, at present, moved on from June 10th and hope the revolution of the three sisters (INTO, TUI and ASTI) can happen to end inequality, croke park hours, pension levy etc once and for all. Sin é.

Sir123

myshirt wrote: »

The elimination of unequal pay is 100% within the control of the ASTI. Those objective to this have consistently asked that the older members be mature and take the pay cut they need to take to allign them with the new entrants. It was completely wrong in the first instance that any level of higher pay was retained for those members.

Why the ASTI persists with this false narrative of 'pay restoration', god only knows.

The ASTI is really letting the members and the students down.

Why should older members of staff have their pay heavily cut to suit a camouflaged government response that 'money is not available'. It in fact is available but our anti-public sector government trive on inequality. I don't think may private sector workers would have been asked to throw colleagues under the bus to suit an employer. Argument invalid.

acequion

ASTI suffered a big blow to its credibility on June 10th,no doubt about that. And now many members are skittish. Though they'd want their heads examined if they vote Yes to the massive sell out that is LRA2.
I'd be interested to hear how our TUI and maybe INTO collegues who post here intend voting?

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

ASTI suffered a big blow to its credibility on June 10th,no doubt about that. And now many members are skittish. Though they'd want their heads examined if they vote Yes to the massive sell out that is LRA2.
I'd be interested to hear how our TUI and maybe INTO collegues who post here intend voting?

Into prob NO but not giant NO. I'm interested in what happens if we vote no. We are currently getting benefits of LRA1 without actually being in in it, so do we go back to pre June 10th status if we vote no to LRA 2?

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

Into prob NO but not giant NO. I'm interested in what happens if we vote no. We are currently getting benefits of LRA1 without actually being in in it, so do we go back to pre June 10th status if we vote no to LRA 2?

I would think if your not in LR2 then you can't stay in LR1. It's like when ASTI maintained that Croke Park hours were over -as per HR deal- but govt said no, the new deal superceded it (+ FEMPI ).

Has FEMPI been voted on again in the Dail?

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I would think if your not in LR2 then you can't stay in LR1. It's like when ASTI maintained that Croke Park hours were over -as per HR deal- but govt said no, the new deal superceded it (+ FEMPI ).

Has FEMPI been voted on again in the Dail?

No fempi shows no sign of disappearing, quelle surprise!!

MrJones1973

Im stripping down to get ready for the beating im now going to get for saying this but as of now Im voting for LR2. For one simple reason-ASTI has no balls to strike. We went out for 2 days last year? Joke. I cant look Tesco staff in the eye-they went out for 3 weeks,
The only hope is the TUI and INTO decide to go out for awhile but im not terribly optimistic there either. I recall the last time we were in sync-PRE HR and it was like a dance night in a nursing home.

Unless ASTI are willing to strike for aat least 10 days-the Government will tell us to FXXX off.

I recently heard in a TUI school-a union official came down to tgalk to new entrants-most stayed in the staffroom. I dont think new entrants want to strike so why bother flapping about them??

I enjoyed the year without Croke Park hours but Im not prepared to be down a couple of grand any longer for people who dont have the balls to strike.
Adios

MrJones1973

judeboy101 wrote: »

Into prob NO but not giant NO. I'm interested in what happens if we vote no. We are currently getting benefits of LRA1 without actually being in in it, so do we go back to pre June 10th status if we vote no to LRA 2?

Im sure the ballot in September will have option for Industrial action. LR 2 subsumes LR 1. They cant take back money they will have given over Summer.

I really doubt LR 2 will be defeated unless TUI/INTO come out swinging. INTO principals are upset because they were hoping for parity with Secondary Principals and have only lately woken up to what a bunch of ****ers the Gov are and they will learn the same lesson we have learned-shut the door and strike or fxxx off. Primary schools being closed will be significant-if it happens but im not so sure INTO members are as upset as their Principal dominated headoffice.

Sir123

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im stripping down to get ready for the beating im now going to get for saying this but as of now Im voting for LR2. For one simple reason-ASTI has no balls to strike. We went out for 2 days last year? Joke. I cant look Tesco staff in the eye-they went out for 3 weeks,
The only hope is the TUI and INTO decide to go out for awhile but im not terribly optimistic there either. I recall the last time we were in sync-PRE HR and it was like a dance night in a nursing home.

Unless ASTI are willing to strike for aat least 10 days-the Government will tell us to FXXX off.

I recently heard in a TUI school-a union official came down to tgalk to new entrants-most stayed in the staffroom. I dont think new entrants want to strike so why bother flapping about them??

I enjoyed the year without Croke Park hours but Im not prepared to be down a couple of grand any longer for people who dont have the balls to strike.
Adios

As an LPT, I will be most certainly voting NO to LRA2 and YES to strike action. As sour and irritating strike action can be, I feel it is fully justified in this case.

I'm not going to be bullied by a government that thinks it can treat me differently because of my age and from the date I joined the profession. Enough is enough and FEMPI does not scare me. They can try to push me into a corner by continuing to attack and FEMPI my extremely low salary as it is. I will, however, fight this government with my LPT and non-LPT colleagues that feel and recognise that an injustice has occurred. This divide cannot continue as it destroying morale in schools.

I would also encourage you to think about the permanent pension contribution (pension levy) that you will be voting for. Please do not come crying when your wage increase is significantly below inflation and continuously eroded from agreement to agreement.

I encourage all members from all three teaching unions to really think about the consequences of voting for this sham. Vote NO and regain some control of the profession.

Bean Scoile

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im stripping down to get ready for the beating im now going to get for saying this but as of now Im voting for LR2. For one simple reason-ASTI has no balls to strike. We went out for 2 days last year? Joke. I cant look Tesco staff in the eye-they went out for 3 weeks,
The only hope is the TUI and INTO decide to go out for awhile but im not terribly optimistic there either. I recall the last time we were in sync-PRE HR and it was like a dance night in a nursing home.

Unless ASTI are willing to strike for aat least 10 days-the Government will tell us to FXXX off.

I recently heard in a TUI school-a union official came down to tgalk to new entrants-most stayed in the staffroom. I dont think new entrants want to strike so why bother flapping about them??

I enjoyed the year without Croke Park hours but Im not prepared to be down a couple of grand any longer for people who dont have the balls to strike.
Adios

As things stand, I agree. I have voted no, gone on strike, tried to explain the issues to other staff members (including lpt's) and had all of that overturned by a meeting in June. All the while listening to tui members in our school gloating about getting paid for Croke park hours without having to do them.

Tui can take up the battle now, I've done my bit.

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I recently heard in a TUI school-a union official came down to tgalk to new entrants-most stayed in the staffroom. I dont think new entrants want to strike so why bother flapping about them??

I'd stay in the staffroom too if the TUI stood up for me the way the way they stand up for TUI LPTs.

Equality isn't even in their lexicon.

rainbowtrout

Honestly? I think all three unions will pass LRA2. Not by a huge margin in some cases but enough. Despite re-negotiations and tweaks to the original, the government managed to get CP, HRA, LRA1 passed. All of those agreements collectively brought in unequal pay, more working hours, S&S for free (for a time), pay cut, pension levy etc etc.

I think a lot of teachers are not as altruistic as people would think. They will go 'Extra hours have not been cut, but they haven't been increased either. Pay rise over three years. Yes, i'm voting for that'

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im stripping down to get ready for the beating im now going to get for saying this but as of now Im voting for LR2. For one simple reason-ASTI has no balls to strike. We went out for 2 days last year? Joke. I cant look Tesco staff in the eye-they went out for 3 weeks,
The only hope is the TUI and INTO decide to go out for awhile but im not terribly optimistic there either. I recall the last time we were in sync-PRE HR and it was like a dance night in a nursing home.

Unless ASTI are willing to strike for aat least 10 days-the Government will tell us to FXXX off.

I recently heard in a TUI school-a union official came down to tgalk to new entrants-most stayed in the staffroom. I dont think new entrants want to strike so why bother flapping about them??

I enjoyed the year without Croke Park hours but Im not prepared to be down a couple of grand any longer for people who dont have the balls to strike.
Adios

Why am I not surprised at this post! My personal attack on you here after June 10th was probably one of the reasons why this thread got shut down so abruptly.So abruptly that I didn't get the chance to apologise. Please accept my apologies now, for the attack,though not the sentiments. Personal attacks, especially on a public forum, are never acceptable. But I was bitterly disappointed with some of you that night.

However,on to LRA2 and it's more of the same. There is something deeply unpalatable about former activists throwing in the towel and just giving in to a very anti public service administration.

My view? Vote yes, basically say yes to continuing the appalling savaging of our pay and conditions that has been going on for the last eight years, say yes to the shameful pay apartheid? No bloody way, not over my dead body!! I will always vote a strong NO to what is basically wrong and shameful. I don't care what other people are voting and if they'll strike or not and I really don't care about the paltry increase in my pay check,which,by the way,I haven't yet seen,despite the craven Yes on June 10th.

I've been out of the country enjoying my summer and recharging the batteries for what will undoubtedly be a stressful school year ahead. But I am hopeful that enough workers will break out of this dreadful "resigned to the worst" mentality that crucified us all during the austerity years and vote and mean No,once and for all.

MrJones1973

No need to apologize Acequion. I understand fully. Things are in flux. If there is a credible plan in September-then LR2 could be rejected. I would vote no if there is a credible plan.

I voted Yes in June because I felt it was win win. We banked some money with the Potential to reject LR 2. We were bleeding members to TUI which made me really think -are the new entrants behind this?

The JC is dumbing down but no Industrial action will affect the Curriculum.

judeboy101

"We banked some money "

My last 2 payslips say otherwise

MrJones1973

It will be there this month. I was due an increment as well. Im sure others were too. Throw in amounts due to new entrants and CIDs.you aint talking 'paltry' amounts

The government aint going to throw away 50 million plus a year in savings by two payscales without a fight but asti has refused to put up a fight. Simply rejecting things achieved nothing.

Failing a strike or plans for strikes in September-with other unions-then LR2 is a shoo in. Sitting all pretty in a corner with principals wont change a shagging thing. Wake up.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

It will be there this month. I was due an increment as well. Im sure others were too. Throw in amounts due to new entrants and CIDs.you aint talking 'paltry' amounts

The government aint going to throw away 50 million plus a year in savings by two payscales without a fight but asti has refused to put up a fight. Simply rejecting things achieved nothing.

Failing a strike or plans for strikes in September-with other unions-then LR2 is a shoo in. Sitting all pretty in a corner with principals wont change a shagging thing. Wake up.

We have only one pay cheque left this month, I have my doubts.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

It will be there this month. I was due an increment as well. Im sure others were too. Throw in amounts due to new entrants and CIDs.you aint talking 'paltry' amounts

The government aint going to throw away 50 million plus a year in savings by two payscales without a fight but asti has refused to put up a fight. Simply rejecting things achieved nothing.

Failing a strike or plans for strikes in September-with other unions-then LR2 is a shoo in. Sitting all pretty in a corner with principals wont change a shagging thing. Wake up.

How do you know that it will be there this month? How can you be so certain? If you know something the rest of us don't,do please share!

"Ain't talking paltry amounts!" What are we talking about then? I've barely ever even noticed my increment by the time it came into my hand. And we've already done the sums from the other stuff and it's nothing to get carried away over. A few bob,that's all it is. Eaten away by ever rising costs. Stop trying to justify your own capitulation! In fact I'd far rather sit pretty in a corner with principals and more time on my hands,quality time to spend as I please, than sell myself and my collegues out for a few paltry,yes paltry, pieces of silver!

And as for ASTI refusing to put up a fight, utter and total horseshtyte!! The many activists within the ASTI have constantly tried to get a fight going,from non cooperation with various initiatives,to pulling out of SNS to strike. To have those initiatives constantly hijacked by the right wingers within the union and the many craven,me fein members who are easily persuaded to jump ship or abort mission. That's about the size of it. The members are the ones at fault, get your facts straight!

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

How do you know that it will be there this month? How can you be so certain? If you know something the rest of us don't,do please share!

"Ain't talking paltry amounts!" What are we talking about then? I've barely ever even noticed my increment by the time it came into my hand. And we've already done the sums from the other stuff and it's nothing to get carried away over. A few bob,that's all it is. Eaten away by ever rising costs. Stop trying to justify your own capitulation! In fact I'd far rather sit pretty in a corner with principals and more time on my hands,quality time to spend as I please, than sell myself and my collegues out for a few paltry,yes paltry, pieces of silver!

And as for ASTI refusing to put up a fight, utter and total horseshtyte!! The many activists within the ASTI have constantly tried to get a fight going,from non cooperation with various initiatives,to pulling out of SNS to strike. To have those initiatives constantly hijacked by the right wingers within the union and the many craven,me fein members who are easily persuaded to jump ship or abort mission. That's about the size of it. The members are the ones at fault, get your facts straight!

There is a circular on asti website that outlines when money will arrive. You are focused on old timers. A lot of new entrants will get a sizeable increase.As for increments they will take longer to filter down according to department.
You are right about rising costs eating it up but that's a broader issue. Voting on LR 2 won't bring down my car insurance
As for right wingers stopping any real action you are simply resorting to labels. At convention in April strike action was rejected. The convention represents all members so is the asti a right wing union ?
This really all goes back to November. There was no strategy and then when the talks resulted in a nonsensical agreement this was put to members even though it was essentially the same
I share your frustration with the inaction of the union but after 14 years of union activism I no longer feel we will ever have a coherent strike. We had a dream team in asti leadership last year and they didn't deliver
BTW I'm personally going to be up by about 5 5k before tax that's not paltry
I'm no longer going to contribute to this thread as it's simply an echo chamber
Only a minority want to strike asti and without a strike you are pissing in the wind.
I will no longer serve as whipping boy for your frustrations with union.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

There is a circular on asti website that outlines when money will arrive. You are focused on old timers. A lot of new entrants will get a sizeable increase.As for increments they will take longer to filter down according to department.
You are right about rising costs eating it up but that's a broader issue. Voting on LR 2 won't bring down my car insurance
As for right wingers stopping any real action you are simply resorting to labels. At convention in April strike action was rejected. The convention represents all members so is the asti a right wing union ?
This really all goes back to November. There was no strategy and then when the talks resulted in a nonsensical agreement this was put to members even though it was essentially the same
I share your frustration with the inaction of the union but after 14 years of union activism I no longer feel we will ever have a coherent strike. We had a dream team in asti leadership last year and they didn't deliver
BTW I'm personally going to be up by about 5 5k before tax that's not paltry
I'm no longer going to contribute to this thread as it's simply an echo chamber
Only a minority want to strike asti and without a strike you are pissing in the wind.
I will no longer serve as whipping boy for your frustrations with union.

From the circular "The payroll adjustments necessitated by this Circular, including the payment of increments, will be implemented at the earliest possible date and with retrospective effect to the effective dates outlined in this Circular."

So that anytime from now til kingdom comes. No mention it will be paid in June or July or august.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

There is a circular on asti website that outlines when money will arrive. You are focused on old timers. A lot of new entrants will get a sizeable increase.As for increments they will take longer to filter down according to department.
You are right about rising costs eating it up but that's a broader issue. Voting on LR 2 won't bring down my car insurance
As for right wingers stopping any real action you are simply resorting to labels. At convention in April strike action was rejected. The convention represents all members so is the asti a right wing union ?
This really all goes back to November. There was no strategy and then when the talks resulted in a nonsensical agreement this was put to members even though it was essentially the same
I share your frustration with the inaction of the union but after 14 years of union activism I no longer feel we will ever have a coherent strike. We had a dream team in asti leadership last year and they didn't deliver
BTW I'm personally going to be up by about 5 5k before tax that's not paltry
I'm no longer going to contribute to this thread as it's simply an echo chamber
Only a minority want to strike asti and without a strike you are pissing in the wind.
I will no longer serve as whipping boy for your frustrations with union.

Ah get over yourself about being a whipping boy Mr White! What do you expect when you're as changeable as island weather! How many times have you said you're outa here for example??

I'm not frustrated with the union,I'm frustrated with the members and I'm utterly sick of this constant raking through the coals of last November just to justify your capitulation. And I'm not whipping you personally here,I'm talking about everybody who is trying to justify changing their minds.

What is happening is that people are giving up and giving in for their own self interest. And I can understand that as it's human nature. People are tired of resistance and reckon it's easier to just go along with things. And they want more money,even a bit more money. And teachers don't have the mettle for long strikes anyway. Even before the leadership capitulated last November many teachers had already had enough and were making that clear to head office,contributing to the sense of panic. Teachers are innately conservative and pro establishment and the present generation,reared during the Tiger years, are much more selfish. That is the reality and the Government know that full well,so we're chicken feed to them.

But blaming the union when the union is only as good as its members is downright irritating. We can't name names here but those of us who've followed things closely know exactly who the instigators of June 10th are and know very well how right ring they are. We also know that there are a number of FG sympathisers,even FG members among them. But there are also a lot of hard line activists in the union who have another vision.So I never implied that ASTI is right wing. It's a union and like all unions will go on doing what unions do.

While the members will go on looking out for themselves.It would be so refreshing though if they would just be honest and admit as much and stop playing this useless blame game.

judeboy101

89% of into reject lra2

The_Valeyard

judeboy101 wrote: »

89% of into reject lra2

That's a big rejection.

Inspector Coptoor

judeboy101 wrote: »

89% of into reject lra2

89% of a 53% turnout.

It's still a great result.

I hope TUI follow suit.

I want the ASTI vote last so we know the lie of the land.
Am sick of being out on our own.

judeboy101

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

89% of a 53% turnout.

It's still a great result.

I hope TUI follow suit.

I want the ASTI vote last so we know the lie of the land.
Am sick of being out on our own.

Side deal will be done with into before that, their main concerns are easier fixed than ours.

Mardy Bum

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

89% of a 53% turnout.

It's still a great result.

I hope TUI follow suit.

I want the ASTI vote last so we know the lie of the land.
Am sick of being out on our own.

Embarrassing turnout. TUI will vote Yes even with a NO recommendation.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

Side deal will be done with into before that, their main concerns are easier fixed than ours.

How are theirs so different to ours? Their biggest concern is the pay apartheid which can't be fixed in any side deal.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Embarrassing turnout. TUI will vote Yes even with a NO recommendation.

Why do you say that about TUI?

A poor turn out by INTO yes,but assuming many had already switched off for the summer. And that aside, it's a very strong rejection and very welcome news.

It didn't even get as much as a mention on TV3 news. If it were the other way round I'd bet they'd report it!