A few questions around re-certification and extra work

daoirse

Hi Folks,

I just bought a house that was built in 2001 and has been lived in for most of the time. The house was then left idle and disconnected for 25 months. So, unfortunately, I had to get a re-certification and pay a fee to ESB Networks.
ESB Networks were very fair as the house was just out of the 2 year period and charged the minimum of €89 for reconnection. I did though have to get a RECI to re-certify. I am under pressure to get into the house and so went with someone I wasn't familiar with.

My issue is that the electrician seems to be piling on a lot of extras at this stage and I want to get views on what's reasonable. Just to mention that I'm not a RECI, but I am an electrical engineer and am capable of normal DIY / minor electrical works in my own house.

I understand that the RECI has to run a test on the installation to ensure that the internal installation is safe. I also expect that he has to do a visual inspection of the installation to ensure that the installation hasn't been damaged while the house is empty. Questions are:

- How far does he have to go to re-verify that the installation is safe: My electrician tells me he has to rip down recessed lights to check their wiring, open every socket and switch to check and possibly repair any bonding issues, re-check all sink / exposed metal bondings etc. He is looking for significant labour to do these checks on top of the cost of the re-certification.
- Where he finds that the current regulations have a requirement that wasn't in place at the time the installation was originally certified, is he required to upgrade the installation to current specs? For instance, he is telling me that a new regulation states that all under-counter appliances must have an isolating switch fitted. This is obviously not a trivial piece of work having to re-chase walls etc. He also wants to add a new circuit as he says that washing machines and fridges have to be on separate circuits under new regulations. Another example is that he wants to install an isolation switch for a bathroom fan. My obvious issue is that all the rest of the houses in the estate (and the country) have these standards and don't need to retrofit - why should I need to do them just because the electricity was disconnected for 2 years? Some issues he has raised such as replacing a main switch with an MCB I can understand as major safety upgrades and not requiring a lot of work, but isolating switches for under-counter appliances when the plug is already accessible inside a cupboard seems like this guy is taking the mick. Just to be clear, he told me he HAS to do these jobs or he won't issue the cert and therefore I can't move in - it's not just that "it's best practice and sure you'd be better off doing them now"
I've had plenty of dealings with electricians in the past and have always found them sensible and reasonable. I think this guy is just giving the profession a bad name.
Any thoughts appreciated...

Sleeper12

Its all seems reasonable to me. When he certs your house he is saying that it is safe and meets the minimum standards required today. If he does not do all he is doing legally he's responsible for anything that happens down the line. Also RECI send out an inspector to check some of these jobs each year.
Sounds like you have a good electrician. I'd rather have him than someone that say ah it'll be grand.
In a few months you'll have forgotten all this & you'll enjoying your new home.
Congratulations on your new home btw.

meercat

Has a new mprn been issued by esbn

If so then your installation is treated as a new connection and has to conform to current regulations

086lavey

I do a few of these a month , the installation has to be to the regs when it was installed , you don't have to bring house up to current regs , only to the regs in which it was first wired ,

meercat

086lavey wrote: »

I do a few of these a month , the installation has to be to the regs when it was installed , you don't have to bring house up to current regs , only to the regs in which it was first wired ,

that is correct,the regs are not retrospective but if a new mprn number is issued then it is treated as a new installation by esbn and should be certified accordingly

EHP

086lavey wrote:

I do a few of these a month , the installation has to be to the regs when it was installed , you don't have to bring house up to current regs , only to the regs in which it was first wired ,

Agree here, house only needs to meet the regulations that were there when wired originally. As long as it passes an insulation resistance test and all earthing and bonding is OK your REC can complete the cert just ticks the box for test only of existing installation and then ticks the box for reconnection only on the cert. He doesn't need to do any extra works unless there is something that could be a potential hazard.

daoirse

Thanks for the input folks.

Whatever about the core things like main MCB, I'm very unhappy with him insisting on changing light switches and with the insistence on fitting an isolation switch for the under-counter fridge.
Of course, my biggest issue is the cost of all this. Any idea what the following list should cost? (Hint - His price is at the bottom).
Overall I think it's ridiculous to pay that sort of money to re-certify a house with effectively no real upgrades.
The one significant thing he's done he seems to have screwed up - The shower now trips out, whereas apparently, there was no issue before he changed the RCBO.

Task Item
Remove Mains Smoke Detector
Delete Shaver / Light
Replace C40 Shower RCBO - was a B32 and he said the B ones are no longer allowed.
Replace Double MCB Main switch
Delete Double Socket
Delete Double Socket
Replace 20A MCB
Install Earth to sink
Install Earth to sink
Install DP Isolating switch - undercounter
Replace Room Thermostat
Replace DP Underfloor Heating isolator switch x 7
Replace Junction Box and Earth to Cooker
Replace Recessed GU10 light fitting x 4
Replace 3-Gang light switch
Install Junction Box to blank wall light x 3
Install Fan Isolator
Replace Junction Box
Install Earth wire to Hot Water Tank
Install Earth bonding to light switch socket box

1600 euros

jmBuildExt

Im not a sparks. I was in exactly same situation in 2012.
Bought house. Elec switched off just over 2 years so treated as new connection. But my house had all original wring from the 70s or 80s it was the old red and black wiring. It had a modern fuse board.

My electrician (who I knew) insisted on adding bonding to pipes which were un bonded (which is fair enough). He insisted I run earths to all light switches (even though they were only plastic)

I suppose if you had to strictly bring it up to current regs he would have had to do a full re wire to get rid of the red/black twin and earth.

As I say - im not a sparks - just offering my experience.

daoirse

jmBuildExt wrote: »

Im not a sparks. I was in exactly same situation in 2012.
Bought house. Elec switched off just over 2 years so treated as new connection. But my house had all original wring from the 70s or 80s it was the old red and black wiring. It had a modern fuse board.

My electrician (who I knew) insisted on adding bonding to pipes which were un bonded (which is fair enough). He insisted I run earths to all light switches (even though they were only plastic)

I suppose if you had to strictly bring it up to current regs he would have had to do a full re wire to get rid of the red/black twin and earth.

As I say - im not a sparks - just offering my experience.

Thanks for that - It's an interesting point - If you were forced to bring every re-cert house up to current regs, you would have had to completely re-wire just because the old colour wiring?

Do you remember how much he charged by any chance?

jmBuildExt

Well he fitted elec shower (he had to run the 10sq cable and put the switch on the fuse board cos there was no shower there before) - i think it was around 500 (580 actually sticks in my head) euro for the whole lot.
He had 2 lads there for a couple of days (not sure if they were full days - i just know i let them in twice)

Edit: It was a 3 bed semi in south dub

2011

On a phone so hard to post properly, apologies.

@daoirse:
Your sparks says that B type RCBOs are no longer permitted? This makes no sense to me.

I assume that (as an engineer) you know that this refers to the operation of the MCB part of the RCBO. B type MCBs are normally use for domestic installations and C type are generally for commercial/ industrial. With everything else being equal a circuit protected by a C type MCB (or RCBO) requires a lower earth fault loop impedance. C type units are slower operate under overload conditions and are less likely to nuisance trip when a load with a high inrush current is switched on (such as a transformer).

I would be interested to know what regulation your sparks is referring to when he states that B type are not permitted on a shower.

I can't see how regulations can be enforced retrospectively unless of course there is a safety issue. I have worked in many plants that have the old red, yellow blue, phase colours and they have no plans to change, nor is anyone forcing them to. This is the case in a well know semiconductor facility not far from Dublin.

daoirse

meercat wrote: »

that is correct,the regs are not retrospective but if a new mprn number is issued then it is treated as a new installation by esbn and should be certified accordingly

So, I'm a bit confused meercat. To answer the earlier question - a new MPRN had to be issued. So, does that mean that the house needs to be upgraded to meet the current regulations or just the regulations in force at the time of the original installation? I can't see it clearly written down anywhere in the regulations.
If it has to be upgraded to the 2017 regulations, doesn't that mean that all that "nasty" Red and Black pre-2004 wiring needs to be ripped out?? The house was built in 2001.
That would be a bit nuts!

Tuco88

I agree with the rcbo, should be a b type. If he is using C type I hope he carried out a earth fault loop impedance test.

Must a fridge & dryer and washing machine be single circuits now?

What has he done to the main switch? Strange you have a double pole, I'm sure the ESB don't like that.

daoirse

Tuco88 wrote: »

I agree with the rcbo, should be a b type. If he is using C type I hope he carried out a earth fault loop impedance test.

Must a fridge & dryer and washing machine be single circuits now?

What has he done to the main switch? Strange you have a double pole, I'm sure the ESB don't like that.

He said he replaced the main switch with a double MCB...

EHP

daoirse wrote:

Task Item Remove Mains Smoke Detector

Why would he do this sure he didn't replace it

Delete Shaver / Light Replace C40 Shower RCBO - was a B32 and he said the B ones are no longer allowed.

He is 100% wrong here should be a B type RCBO

Replace Double MCB Main switch

Probably removed fuse type and fitted MCB, Did he fit a MCB in the meter cabinet?

Delete Double Socket Delete Double Socket Replace 20A MCB Install Earth to sink Install Earth to sink

Agree with the earthing

Install DP Isolating switch - undercounter

Not required for reconnection

Replace Room Thermostat Replace DP Underfloor Heating isolator switch x 7

Why?

Replace Junction Box and Earth to Cooker

OK

Replace Recessed GU10 light fitting x 4 Replace 3-Gang light switch

Why?

Install Junction Box to blank wall light x 3

Ok

Install Fan Isolator Replace

This is best practise but as soon as he does this he has to put the bathroom circuit on an RCBO

Junction Box Install Earth wire to Hot Water Tank Install Earth bonding to light switch socket box

Agree

I think your electrician doesn't have a full understanding of the regs and is probably going overboard to protect himself. Probably best get someone else at this stage.

daoirse

EHP wrote: »

I think your electrician doesn't have a full understanding of the regs and is probably going overboard to protect himself. Probably best get someone else at this stage.

Think you're right, but the work is almost complete and is now looking for 1600 Euros or he won't hand over the cert!


I suspect it's more likely that he took the approach he did to try to generate needless work as I know he's not that busy - rural west of Ireland.

EHP

If the work is almost done I think you just have to pay him get your cert and move on. The only thing I would get him to change is the c type RCBO. All the rest of the work sounds like it's improved your installation at least.

Double check what he did with the smoke alarms can't see why he'd take one out surely replaced it.

daoirse

Why would he do this sure he didn't replace it

He actually removed the mains smoke alarm and didn't replace it - just left me a note - Get a battery one!

Delete Shaver / Light

Said he removed light as it was faulty
Replace C40 Shower RCBO - was a B32 and he said the B ones are no longer allowed.

He is 100% wrong here should be a B type RCBO Can't argue with you. Now that he's changed it the shower trips after 2 minutes!

Replace Double MCB Main switch

Probably removed fuse type and fitted MCB, Did he fit a MCB in the meter cabinet? I'll double check, but that's what he said he would do. he said he'd put in the MCB - I assume he didn't remove the DP Switch

Delete Double Socket Delete Double Socket Replace 20A MCB Install Earth to sink Install Earth to sink

Agree with the earthing

Install DP Isolating switch - undercounter

Not required for reconnection

Replace Room Thermostat Replace DP Underfloor Heating isolator switch x 7

Why? Said stat was faulty and I know the isloator switches were squidgy - can't argue, but I could have done it myself in less than an hour

Replace Junction Box and Earth to Cooker

OK

Replace Recessed GU10 light fitting x 4 Replace 3-Gang light switch

Why? He said that the backend of the light fittings were not covered and were hazourdess. Can't verify either way??

Install Junction Box to blank wall light x 3

Ok

Install Fan Isolator Replace

This is best practise but as soon as he does this he has to put the bathroom circuit on an RCBO Thanks for the info - I'll check if he did

Junction Box Install Earth wire to Hot Water Tank Install Earth bonding to light switch socket box

Agree

EHP

daoirse wrote:

He is 100% wrong here should be a B type RCBO Can't argue with you. Now that he's changed it the shower trips after 2 minutes!

Shower tripping is a different issue assuming the RCBO he fitted isn't faulty which can happen even when new, he should be able to test this.

daoirse wrote:

Why? He said that the backend of the light fittings were not covered and were hazourdess. Can't verify either way??

He could be right here especially if there was insulation on top of the lights, there is covers you can get but he probably just fitted fire rated spots which is a better job.

2011

daoirse wrote: »

He actually removed the mains smoke alarm and didn't replace it - just left me a note - Get a battery one!

I would advise the opposite i.e. mains power smoke detector with battery back up, linked to the other smoke detectors.

Now that he's changed it the shower trips after 2 minutes!

The shower is not tripping because the RCBO has been changed form a B type to a C type. If anything a C type is less likely to trip, see tripping curve:

brightspark

daoirse wrote: »

So, I'm a bit confused meercat. To answer the earlier question - a new MPRN had to be issued. So, does that mean that the house needs to be upgraded to meet the current regulations or just the regulations in force at the time of the original installation? I can't see it clearly written down anywhere in the regulations.
If it has to be upgraded to the 2017 regulations, doesn't that mean that all that "nasty" Red and Black pre-2004 wiring needs to be ripped out?? The house was built in 2001.
That would be a bit nuts!

If built in 2001 there shouldn't have been red and black used as the second edition released in 1991 (my copy is dated 1992) prohibited the use of black!

SHOVELLER

Ringing around a few sparks to get a wire certificate for a reconnection. Nearly dropped the phone. Quotes from 350 - 500!

Seriously are these standard prices???

Risteard81

Doesn't sound unreasonable.

EHP

SHOVELLER wrote:

Ringing around a few sparks to get a wire certificate for a reconnection. Nearly dropped the phone. Quotes from 350 - 500!

SHOVELLER wrote:

Seriously are these standard prices???

Sounds right remember it's 2 visits to your property 1st the pre connection tests and after the power is connected the REC has to go back and complete the post connection tests. Those prices would be just for testing you may need remedial works carried out also.