Minister signals "baptism barrier" to go

looksee

Mod: please do not respond to JC's posts on this thread. JC please do not post in threads other than the Creationism thread.

Akrasia

yoganinja wrote: »

Rubbish ....
Even if there were ample school places in an area oversubscription still can and does arise - some schools are always going to be more popular than others for lots of reasons, when and if that happens priority still should never be dicided on on the basis of religion in a state funded school

Exactly. Not all schools are the same. Some schools are better than others. Why should Christian families have a choice of every local school while non christians get to the back of the queue?

dr.fuzzenstein

J C wrote: »

Its the job of the state to ensure every child has access to a school place ... and building extra school places is obviously the way to do so.
Using the shortage of school places in a tiny number of good schools to 'shoe-horn' is secularism and atheism into every school is totally indefesible.

Quoting with apologies to the mods.
So yes, the state should provide school places. The state has long enough allowed this situation to carry on and in return turned a blind eye to the Catholic strangle-hold on education, because let's face it, the Irish state likes a free ride and doesn't like paying out on silly inconveniences like education, transport, health-care, etc.
There should be state run schools completely separate from any religious institutions and while it may be acceptable to teach religion on a voluntary basis, religion must not form the basis of those schools.
Schools in the 21st century should educate children in scientific matters and the church is not the organization to do that.
And I don't care if you quote the history of the entire world, that's the long and short of it.

looksee

Mod: Dr F you were asked not to respond to JC, you could have made that reply without the quote.

Anyone quoting JC on this thread (or any other that he cannot post in) will be carded.

evolving_doors

Edit: missed mod warning

Discriminating on the grounds of religion is wrong though.
What has a child's religion got to do with education anyway?

recedite

looksee wrote: »

Anyone quoting JC on this thread (or any other that he cannot post in) will be carded.

Eh? How is he posting here, if he can't post here?
JC works in mysterious ways.

Absolam

yoganinja wrote: »

It's hardly a binary thing though is it? It's entirely possible (with or without the wisdom of Solomon) to agree that choosing to give pupils places on the basis of religion isn't really what a state funded service should do AND making sure everyone has access to a local school place

I think it's fair to say that a great deal of the discussion is because many people wouldn't agree that choosing to give pupils places on the basis of religion isn't really what a state funded service should do. My own feeling is that as long as the state funding is blind to the religions (or lack of) involved, then a parents' decision to place their child in a school based on their religion is up to them.

yoganinja wrote: »

Please enlighten me how ensuring that every child in the state has equal access to state funded education irresoective of their religion is shoe horning secularism and or atheism into every school ?

In fairness, it's not. But insisting that the schools providing that state funded education be secular is.

yoganinja wrote: »

Rubbish ....Even if there were ample school places in an area oversubscription still can and does arise - some schools are always going to be more popular than others for lots of reasons, when and if that happens priority still should never be dicided on on the basis of religion in a state funded school

That's certainly an opinion, but an opposing view would be when a school is very popular it should give priority to those who most value it's raison d'etre; in the case of a religious school that's religious students. Though I'm not sure how, if there are ample places, oversubscription could arise? If a school is oversubscribed then spaces are pretty much definitively not ample.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Note the persistent muddying of the waters yet again. Conflating discrimination with oversubscription.

Not to muddy the waters, but I think the point they're making is that children aren't missing out on places in schools because of discrimination. The only reason selection criteria are being applied at all is because there are insufficient places, and when that's the case, someone will be discriminated against regardless of the criteria. Granted, it may be criteria you agree with, but that's just a matter of taste.

Absolam

kylith wrote: »

Or maybe the tests here are easier than in other countries, if Irish kids are doing better.

Because Irish kids doing better is more unlikely that Irish schools getting easier tests in an international assessment? That kind of smacks of confirmation bias, especially if you're coming to that conclusion without even bothering to consider the OECDs methodology.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There should be state run schools completely separate from any religious institutions and while it may be acceptable to teach religion on a voluntary basis, religion must not form the basis of those schools.
Schools in the 21st century should educate children in scientific matters and the church is not the organization to do that.

That's a rip roaring manifesto right enough. I'd be inclined to disagree myself; I think there should be no State run schools at all. If parents want religion taught to their children in schools, and want religious institutions running them, let them at it. Schools in the 21st Century should educate children in as broad and diverse a fashion as possible and do their utmost to avoid stamping out one size fits all State approved drones. We should be able to accommodate both the long and the short of these things...

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Discriminating on the grounds of religion is wrong though. What has a child's religion got to do with education anyway?

Some discrimination on the grounds of religion may be wrong, sure. There are occasions, however, when it makes sense too.

I think it's fair to say that for those who are religious, their religion has something to do with everything, and education is not excepted from that.

yoganinja

Interesting contribution to the topic by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin - although in fairness he has been advocating a serious change in school patronage for the best part of a decade
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/archbishop-martin-proved-right-about-school-patronage-1.3150908?mode=amp#.WWYIe_IDzg8.twitter

recedite

Very good. But you would wonder why the patronage of Irish state funded public schools is being discussed in Bavaria.
It must be quite boring for the Bavarians, and it seems totally pointless for those of us in Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato

yoganinja wrote: »

Interesting contribution to the topic by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin - although in fairness he has been advocating a serious change in school patronage for the best part of a decade
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/archbishop-martin-proved-right-about-school-patronage-1.3150908?mode=amp#.WWYIe_IDzg8.twitter

The man who could lift the baptism barrier in 90% of Dublin's schools in the morning - but won't.