Home heating automation

chris_ie

championc wrote: »

With Tado, it would be a case of NOT linking a TRV to the Extension Kit. That way, it was turn on and off completely independently of triggering of the boiler.

Not linking wouldn’t be ideal either as I’d want it linked for other schedules.

If it can’t be done that’s fair enough as I’m using it on a system it’s partially designed for.

I can just set the temperature for those rooms upstairs and as sebdavis says the oil would just be topping up the stove heat.

With regards to that, if the stove was fairly hot and the oil fired, is there a chance that this oil heated water ends up back in the boiler? Pretty sure these setups should be plumbed in a way that prevents this.

I’d have constantly open rads in each zone too to handle excess heat but seems like a lot of the stove heat would end up in these eventually.

I think I need to sit down and work all this out on paper

championc

chris_ie wrote: »

Not linking wouldn’t be ideal either as I’d want it linked for other schedules.

If it can’t be done that’s fair enough as I’m using it on a system it’s partially designed for.

I can just set the temperature for those rooms upstairs and as sebdavis says the oil would just be topping up the stove heat.

With regards to that, if the stove was fairly hot and the oil fired, is there a chance that this oil heated water ends up back in the boiler? Pretty sure these setups should be plumbed in a way that prevents this.

I’d have constantly open rads in each zone too to handle excess heat but seems like a lot of the stove heat would end up in these eventually.

I think I need to sit down and work all this out on paper

Here's an idea for you - link them to the Extension Kit, but have a relay controlled by the Stove Temperature, which will make or break the trigger connection from the Extension Kit to your boiler.

So the LINKED Tado TRV's will look to always fire the boiler - and will have no idea if the Extension Kit has actually told the boiler to fire or not. If the stove is off, then the Relay connection will be closed, allowing the Extension Kit to tell the boiler to fire.

sebdavis

chris_ie wrote: »

Not linking wouldn’t be ideal either as I’d want it linked for other schedules.

If it can’t be done that’s fair enough as I’m using it on a system it’s partially designed for.

I can just set the temperature for those rooms upstairs and as sebdavis says the oil would just be topping up the stove heat.

With regards to that, if the stove was fairly hot and the oil fired, is there a chance that this oil heated water ends up back in the boiler? Pretty sure these setups should be plumbed in a way that prevents this.

I’d have constantly open rads in each zone too to handle excess heat but seems like a lot of the stove heat would end up in these eventually.

I think I need to sit down and work all this out on paper

If the stove has the water to the top temp then the oil boiler will not fire at all.
If the oil does fire I am sure you should have pumps which are circulating the water which means the hot water will go around the system first before it comes back to hit either the oil/stove. So hot water coming direct from the oil will not go near the stove

If that makes sense :-)

chris_ie

championc wrote: »

Here's an idea for you - link them to the Extension Kit, but have a relay controlled by the Stove Temperature, which will make or break the trigger connection from the Extension Kit to your boiler.

So the LINKED Tado TRV's will look to always fire the boiler - and will have no idea if the Extension Kit has actually told the boiler to fire or not. If the stove is off, then the Relay connection will be closed, allowing the Extension Kit to tell the boiler to fire.

Yeah that’s similar to what we are planning to do, deezell suggested a while ago to wire it so that when the stove thermostat fires the pump it cuts the oil. This is grand, it’s just a matter of timing. I.e Rooms calling for heat before the pump is active. Not sure if the on/off on the boiler would be good for the boiler. So room calls for heat, oil kicks in and half a minute later the stove pump kicks in and cuts the boiler. Repeat over the evening.

deezell

chris_ie wrote: »

@deezell you mentioned the Tado has an off grid type feature where you can set the temperature but have it not call for heat. What’s that setting called? Was having a look through the manual to see what options are available and couldn’t see it.

Strange that it can’t be done on Drayton. I mean if you have schedules, surely you set temperatures for those schedules. If you don’t have a schedule what happens the TRVs? Are they fully open/closed? Or do you need to have a schedule all the time.

I contacted Drayton and they said the TRVs will always call for heat.

For Tado;
Settings/Rooms & Devices/ {Room name}/Zone Controller/ No Zone Controller (Independent)

You may have a number of TRVs all in the same Zone 'Room', which could be several rooms e.g 'Bedrooms', or 'Upstairs. You would do this to have a common schedule and save editing, while each TRV would still use its own stat sensor to follow the schedule. To disconnect just one such TRV from the controller, simply create its own Room, and set the controller for that room to 'Independent'. It will follow it's own schedule, but not call the boiler
Settings/Rooms & Devices/ Smart Radiator Thermostat/Room/Create New Room
This facility exists as in some installations in Europe, the CH flow is community or constant, so you dont need to call a source.

For Drayton, I'd imagine some facility might exist to replicate this. Pairing to an unconnected HubR would do, but I'm not sure if they have this option for the European market. The TRVs seem to have a different sales package on DE sites, sometimes coupled wirh some UFH products, and sporting a different brand name, Eberle, with a different looking receiver.
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/dp/B077XHDVG1/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_60EEFX5T53MYB5H5MVY4?psc=1

deezell

chris_ie wrote: »

......With regards to that, if the stove was fairly hot and the oil fired, is there a chance that this oil heated water ends up back in the boiler? Pretty sure these setups should be plumbed in a way that prevents this ...
......I think I need to sit down and work all this out on paper

Yes, a correct plumbing approach is to use a blending manifold or small tank, also known as a a neutraliser.
Sources are independently pumped in, non return valves are employed to stop a source receiving reverse flow. The neutraliser then acts as the central source for all heat, with zones and HW being pumped out without creating a pressure differential in the manifold, so no flow back from oil to stove, or oil to oil/gas/ heat pump in big systems. Stove can/must still have a gravity to a seperate cylinder coil. Lots of pumps, I've 4, no valves.

Yes, it gets complex to hold it all in your head, it would give you mental constipation, but, as the mathematician said, you can work that out with a pencil.

cuffeb

I was advised by my plumber at the time of installing the stove and heating system NOT to put TRV's or any valves on the downstairs rads.
This was to enable the water from the stove to vent/ purge into an open circuit. The temperature from a solid fuel fire is difficult to control. The plumber installed a system link manifold in the hot press, with 3 zones, HW, Down S & Up S. The stove will default with heating the hot water first. When the water has reached a set temperature, it then kicks in the down stairs pumps, when the downstairs reaches a set temperature it then kicks in the upstairs pumps. I don't know if you remember the old back boilers in open fires, when the fire was blazing, you would hear some knocking noises and the hot water tap would need be turned on to cool the temperature of the cylinder. Purging the system. Both the boiler and stove can run at the same time, but the stove is the primary when up to temperature.

deezell

I remember that alright. Steam hammer is one name for it. I installed an open fire back boiler in my parents house when I was a student, back in '74. No HW, that was taken care of by a small back boiler in a Stanley no. 8 range. No back boiler stat, that came later, you just lit the sitting room fire and waited for the clattering, then hit a wall switch to a pump. The stove stat was a big automation improvement back then! Happy memories.
Good advice from your plumber btw.

chris_ie

Parents only got a thermostat fitted bout 3 or 4 years ago. Was the same deal, wait for the banging and hit the switch!

Handling stove heat does require a bit more thinking about alright. I still have some concerns about it when I get setup but will see how it’s goes. If it becomes an issue it may mean more constant open rads.

Been playing around with the radiators here. Knocked the 3 rads in the kitchen (where stove is) down to 3 on TRV and sent heat upstairs. Sons room stayed warm and our bedroom was warm going to bed. Not crazy heat but much more comfortable. We’d usually boot the heat upstairs to heat sons room later in evening, didn’t need to last few nights. Already getting much more value out of the stove. The heat in the room with the stove didn’t change much at all even with those rads going off, heat from the stove itself was enough. Previously other rooms downstairs were heated and not used.

DrPhilG

Valves going on this Wednesday so I'll be hooking up the TRVs that evening.

Going back to my previous question re TRVs and room stats, the Drayton website does seem to suggest that the room stat acts as master for any TRVs that are in the same location.

Who knows, a bit of experimentation might be needed.

Brusna

DrPhilG wrote: »

Valves going on this Wednesday so I'll be hooking up the TRVs that evening.

Going back to my previous question re TRVs and room stats, the Drayton website does seem to suggest that the room stat acts as master for any TRVs that are in the same location.

Who knows, a bit of experimentation might be needed.

I’ve just checked this now on my system and yeah you are right. When I moved a thermostat into a room with a trv (on the app) the temperature for the room switched from the trv temperature to the thermostat temperature.

deezell

Brusna wrote: »

I’ve just checked this now on my system and yeah you are right. When I moved a thermostat into a room with a trv (on the app) the temperature for the room switched from the trv temperature to the thermostat temperature.

By moved do you mean virtually on the app 'rooms' or just physically by carrying it in? It would make sense that a stat acts as the temperature sensor for co located trvs.

chris_ie

Yeah from what I read in the Drayton manual that looked like it should be the case. Glad to hear it as it was putting me off it slightly when there was a bit of doubt whether the room stat would be the temperature reading for a room with multiple TRVs.

Brusna

deezell wrote: »

By moved do you mean virtually on the app 'rooms' or just physically by carrying it in? It would make sense that a stat acts as the temperature sensor for co located trvs.

Yeah I moved it virtually in the app. I’ll probably move it physically when I get home as that particular trv never gave an accurate reading as there is an armchair beside it which is affecting the air circulation around it.

Just to clarify there is just one trv in the room.

Paulzx

DrPhilG wrote: »

Valves going on this Wednesday so I'll be hooking up the TRVs that evening.

Going back to my previous question re TRVs and room stats, the Drayton website does seem to suggest that the room stat acts as master for any TRVs that are in the same location.

Who knows, a bit of experimentation might be needed.

I've mine allocated to its own "room" with no TRV's allocated to the same room on the app. This means that the TRV's are all independant.

I presume if you have TRV's and a room stat allocated to the same "room" on the app one of them has to be dominant.

Must try it out for the craic

DrPhilG

Paulzx wrote: »

I've mine allocated to its own "room" with no TRV's allocated to the same room on the app. This means that the TRV's are all independant.

I presume if you have TRV's and a room stat allocated to the same "room" on the app one of them has to be dominant.

Must try it out for the craic

Yeah from what I've read, having a room stat and TRVs in the same virtual room means that the room stat becomes master. The TRVs then adjust based on whatever the room stat reads. Which suits me as I have the same issue, sofas in the way meaning that the temp at the TRVs is always a few degrees off.

DrPhilG

Just clarifying something today before the TRVs all go on...

Let's say for simplification that I have zone A, with room 1 and 2.

The easy scenario is that room 1 is set to 20 degrees and room 2 is set to 18. The temperature in both is 19. So room 1 calls for heat, the boiler heats all of Zone A, but room 2 TRVs close because its already at the set temp.

Now the more complex scenario. Room 1 is set to 20 degrees and room 2 is set to off. So when all of Zone A is activated, will room 2 default to off because it doesn't need to reach a target temp? Or will it default to open because it hasn't been told to shut?

deezell

DrPhilG wrote: »

Just clarifying something today before the TRVs all go on...

Let's say for simplification that I have zone A, with room 1 and 2.

The easy scenario is that room 1 is set to 20 degrees and room 2 is set to 18. The temperature in both is 19. So room 1 calls for heat, the boiler heats all of Zone A, but room 2 TRVs close because its already at the set temp.

Now the more complex scenario. Room 1 is set to 20 degrees and room 2 is set to off. So when all of Zone A is activated, will room 2 default to off because it doesn't need to reach a target temp? Or will it default to open because it hasn't been told to shut?

Is it not the case that s Zone (i.e, the HubR relay) is only activated when one of its paired devices calls for heat. Devices are in individual rooms in order to have seperate schedules. Room 2 will not call the zone, it's off. Only room 1 will. As has been pointed out, a Stat in the same room takes priority, its schedule is used. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the app, but can you even have a schedule for a TRV if it is in the same room as a Stat. Is the schedule for the room, not any one device in it.
I'm assuming if you have multiple TRVs physically and virtually in the same room, they all follow the same schedule, though I've not seen it mentioned which if any TRV is responsible for temperature sensing, or perhaps they maintain their individual sensing, which in a large room, would make, er, sense.

DrPhilG

deezell wrote: »

Is it not the case that s Zone (i.e, the HubR relay) is only activated when one of its paired devices calls for heat. Devices are in individual rooms in order to have seperate schedules. Room 2 will not call the zone, it's off. Only room 1 will. As has been pointed out, a Stat in the same room takes priority, its schedule is used. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the app, but can you even have a schedule for a TRV if it is in the same room as a Stat. Is the schedule for the room, not any one device in it.
I'm assuming if you have multiple TRVs physically and virtually in the same room, they all follow the same schedule, though I've not seen it mentioned which if any TRV is responsible for temperature sensing, or perhaps they maintain their individual sensing, which in a large room, would make, er, sense.

My understanding (and experience thus far) is that TRVs in a room can call for heat, they don't need a room stat.

As it is now, I have a room stat in the hallway and 2 TRVs in the living room (both virtually and real).

If the hallway is at set for 18 and the living room is set for 20, then when the living room calls for heat the whole zone is activated. Currently that means that the hallway will keep heating because it can't turn off the rads, and the living room still wants heat.

DrPhilG

When adding either a room stat or a TRV, you tell the app which zone it is part of. Which actual zone that is, not related to any virtual room setup.

That (as far as I can see) means that any TRV or stat can call for heat from that zone.

Brusna

In a recent update to the drayton wiser app they changed the way the scheduling is done.

Previously each device had its own schedule so if you had a lot of devices that was a lot of editing every time circumstances changed in the house like say for mid term breaks when the house is used all day and change them all back again when the house is empty during the day.

Now you set up the schedules and then apply them to a room. If you have more than one device in a room they all follow the schedule.

It’s much better this way as you just set up the schedules initially and then apply them to the rooms as needed.

I may not have explained that very well but hopefully you get the gist of it.

DrPhilG

Yeah I noticed that. So even if I have a rarely used room in each zone, I can apply the same schedule to both. Its pretty useful.

Paulzx

The room schedule applying to all devices in the room is a handy shortcut alright.

I still haven't figured out which way the room temp in that room is calculated.

For example i have one large room with 3 radiators all fitted with Drayton TRV's. They all operate to the one schedule as they are all assigned to the same "room" on the app. The app only indicates 1 temp for this reason. I have no idea how it calculates the temp if there are differences between the readings on each TRV. I'm also not sure whether they now also behave together or will still open and close separetly.

DrPhilG

Paulzx wrote: »

I have no idea how it calculates the temp if there are differences between the readings on each TRV.

Yeah I'm not sure on that either. Is it an average between them all, or the lowest of the 2 or 3?

Once I'm finished I'll have 3 virtual zones with more than 1 TRV. Hallway with 3, back hall & utility with 3, living room with 2 plus a room stat.

Brusna

Paulzx wrote: »

The room schedule applying to all devices in the room is a handy shortcut alright.

I still haven't figured out which way the room temp in that room is calculated.

For example i have one large room with 3 radiators all fitted with Drayton TRV's. They all operate to the one schedule as they are all assigned to the same "room" on the app. The app only indicates 1 temp for this reason. I have no idea how it calculates the temp if there are differences between the readings on each TRV. I'm also not sure whether they now also behave together or will still open and close separetly.

If you wanted to see the three temperatures you could set them up as individual rooms and make the same schedule apply to all three.

Paulzx

Brusna wrote: »

If you wanted to see the three temperatures you could set them up as individual rooms and make the same schedule apply to all three.

I'm actually happy enough with them all grouped together. The app screen will be 2 foot long if all the devices are seperate!:D

I'm just interested in what way the system calculates mulitple TRV's in 1 room.

Brusna

Paulzx wrote: »

I'm actually happy enough with them all grouped together. The app screen will be 2 foot long if all the devices are seperate!:D

I'm just interested in what way the system calculates mulitple TRV's in 1 room.

Ah yeah, it makes sense to leave it the way it is. I just made the suggestion for information purposes. It might help you figure out how the system groups the trv’s.

I suppose as long as the room is comfortable and evenly heated it’s not worth worrying about.

Paulzx

From the info i've gathered about the Drayton system it is generally flagged as one of the more basic/simple of the smart heating systems. There are supposed to much more features etc. on a lot of the other ones

For the life of me i can't imagine how i could cope with more features:eek:

championc

Would you be able to hear the actuators individually opening or closing a TRV ?

DrPhilG

championc wrote: »

Would you be able to hear the actuators individually opening or closing a TRV ?

There is a very faint buzz when a TRV opens or closes. You'd only hear it if there's no other background noise and it only lasts a few seconds.