Home heating automation

bittihuduga

thank you. will get this for now.

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118465150#Comment_118465150

I am planning connect up a Nest E. If I am removing the flash, I assume I would connect the top brown and grey cable to the C terminal in the Nest E, and the bottom brown to the NO.

Now if I want to leave the flash in place (which would allow me to put the Nest Heat Link in a better position just outside the cabinet), where in the flash would I run the short pair from?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579190#Comment_118579190

From the two brown wires in the flash to the C and NO. Set the flash to Off.

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579378#Comment_118579378

Thanks. To be 100% clear, from the brown wires at the top of my picture (to the left and right of the blue wires) or the brown wires at the bottom of the flash?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579391#Comment_118579391

The two external brown wires at the top. The flash is just a manual/timed switch which connects one external brown to another. Blue neutrals are permanently linked together, they're not switched. So you're just using the flash as a wiring centre by setting it to Off, and running a pair of wires from the brown terminals to the Nest Com and NO, which will take over the switching function.

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118579726#Comment_118579726

Thanks, much appreciated.

New To Automation

Hi everyone, I'm new here and interested in automating the heating system in my house. I been reading lots of the discussions here and found lots of useful information.

So here is some background information to my current setup. Unfortunately my house was built by a builder who took as many shortcuts as possible and it also has pyrite. I don't mind investing some money but want a system to be able to be removed to another house if necessary.

The heating system is a oil fired boiler, with no zoning, so it heats all the radiators and hot water together working from a timer clock.

Also a stove heating all the radiators and hot water through a second coil in the hot water cylinder.

There is an immersion also working from a timer clock.

I'm hoping to achieve the following,

When using the oil boiler.

Turn each room in to a zone with wireless thermostatic valves and room sensors all connected to a central control point.

Set time and temp schedules for each zone. This should also heat the hot water.

For the immersion I'd like to be able to set time schedules for the summer.

Remote control via an app.

When using the stove, as above control.

But I would need to isolate the boiler so that the system does not bring on the boiler. I also think that one zone\radiator is always open when using the stove, high setpoint.

I've looked at systems like Evohome and Wiser and I have the following questions.

1. Can this system work locally when there is no internet connection? After its initially set up?
2. Does each room need a thermostat or can the wireless TRV's manage all this.

I'd like to keep all the controls on one platform, no home assistant, no cloud server dependencies and easy to setup and operate by users with little tech knowledge.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jonathan

I'm looking for recommendations for temperature and humidity sensors to incorporate into my home assistant setup. I don't have a strong preference for Zigbee/ZWave/BLE/WiFi.

As regards battery life, I don't want to be stuck buying CR2032 or CR123 batteries, so would prefer a device that could be run off AAs/AAAs that I could change as required. Given that they'll be rechargeable AAs/AAAs, battery life of 3-4 months would be tolerable, but longer would be better.

Any suggestions? Ta.

xckjoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118623492#Comment_118623492

I've one Xiaomi BLE sensor and one Shelly WiFi one and I'd actually rank the Xiaomi one higher than the Shelly one. Getting weird humidity readings from the Shelly and from a quick look online it seems to be common enough. Plus it uses a weird battery.

Xiaomi one uses AAA and integrates nicely to my HA over bt-mqtt (installed on RPi close to sensor). Quite cheap to buy too. I only remember changing the batteries once in the ~2yrs I've had it. Bluetooth range is their only real downside

deezell

Devices that use aa or aaa tend to be larger devices designed as wall thermostats with user interface. If you search hard enough you will probably find fixed sensors, with or without display, which take standard batteries, however... aa and aaa rechargeables only deliver 1.2 volts per cell, whereas non rechargeable zinc or alkaline deliver 1.5. So a two cell sensor will already be in the low voltage range with a fully charged pair of nicad or nimh batteries, delivering only 2.4 v, and will fail or send low battery warnings after a very short time. Tado thermostat or thermostat sensor only is a good example, they specifically state not to use rechargeables. Furthermore, some of the cheaper devices with direct WiFi connection will require much higher power consumption due to the higher signal overhead of maintaining WiFi in comparison to zwave, 6LOWPAN, bt, zigbee etc.

I'm using alkaline batteries from Eurogiant in my thermostat devices, €2 for 8 or even 12 sometimes, with easily a years life per device. The annual cost is trivial, I would hate to have to constantly unmount, open, recharge and refit expensive chargeable batteries, only to find after a few dozen cycles they were down to half their already short life.

If you find aaa sensors like the xiaomi mentioned above that don't depend on WiFi, forget about the rechargeable route if you want to stay sane. Charging phones and smart watches is enough of a burden.

deezell

Tado refurbished offer on again,

Wireless starter kit £100

Wired starter kit £80

Extra wired stat £70

Sensor stat for TRVs £45

TRVs. £40.

Its annoying that prices are in £, but this the /ie-en tado site, no extra Vat or duty and delivery included.

https://www.tado.com/ie-en/certified-refurbished-promo?utm_source=newlsetter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=en_ec_refurbished

oodles19

Can anyone recommend what smart thermostat to go with and how installation would work? I know there was a provider that was doing a combo gas boiler service/Nest installation package before but it doesn't seem to be knocking about any more, I'd be interested in something similar in terms of a service/smart home installation that works with Google/Alexa?

deezell

If you already have a single wall mounted manual stat, then Tado is a DIY replacement, service guy should be able to make the two wire swap. If your CH is on a wall timer only, a wireless stat with receiver is ideal, Nest, Tado wireless, Drayton, Hive. Boiler service guy may not want to get into this part of the job, might tell you to get a sparks in.

bittihuduga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558126#Comment_118558126

sorry i am back again.

was about to order

drayton 2 zone + HW kit

2 smart TRV for down and 2 smart TRV for up.

but then i got this question in mind and i couldn't find answer on their website. so i am back here. please guide

1. i replace living and dining TRV with smart one. also master BR and kids room TRV with smart. other rooms are normal TRV
2. i have currently 2 zone + HW. so replace it with Drayton.
3. i set timer for upstairs zone for 7am - half hour for ex.
4. can i set a max and min temp for these smart TRV? i.e can i have master BR high max temp set at 20deg and kids room at 22 deg and min temp as 17 deg ?
5. can the smart TRV start the heating when temp is below 17 or shut dow heating when temp is 22?
6. what happens when the timer is ON ie at 7am boiler starts heating. what happens when the TRV exceed the temp, will it shut down heating?
7. the reason i am asking this is because there are non smart TRVs which probably need heating when room is cold. so want to know the behaviour of smart TRV and their impact on dumb TRV.

deezell

Yes to everything. Smart TRVs will open the TRV radiator valve and wirelessly call the boiler for the zone it is located in. TRVs are programmed with a time and temperature schedule. E.g, master bed 21° at 7.00 till 9.00, 18° from 9.00 till 21.00, maybe 20° till 23.30, then 17° until next morning at 7.00. The main zone stat will have its own schedule for the room or general area it's in, say living room or reception/ hall. The radiators in these areas can be set open manually, or fitted with a smart TRV slaved to the zone stat, so they won't have two conflicting schedules.

Rooms in a zone which have manual TRVs rely on the general zone stat to call the boiler, so these rooms will follow the main stat schedule times and approximate temperature, but their manual TRVs can be set to cap the max temperature in that room. A manual TRV can't call the boiler for heat, it can only limit the room temperature, and depends on a general schedule for the zone to initiate the boiler. Smart TRVs in a zone will also call the boiler, so you may have rads heating to the cap set by their manual TRV at times when you didn't want them on at all.

A good example that is familiar to anyone WFH the last two years in their upstairs office/ former box bedroom is the problem with having the entire upstairs zone heating when you only want the office heated and the bedrooms low from 9 till 5. If you only have a zone thermostat and open or manual TRVs in this zone, with the main zone stat in the master bed or on the landing, you'll be heating bedrooms unnecessarily during the day in order to heat the office.

If you add smart TRVs to some or all of the rooms in the zone,then you can schedule the bedrooms off during the day, but the office, landing and bathroom on, with the main zone stat perhaps in the landing. Conversely, you can program the office off or low after six, while having the bedrooms come on around that time to facilitate kids, with the master bedroom getting a separate boost later in the evening. Manual TRVs can keep the bathroom from overheating, and the landing also if the zone stat is located in the master bed Don't get too hung up on fine control, as rooms will heat to a certain extent from the party walls and open doors in a zone. Part of the building regs to achieve A rated homes includes spring-loaded room doors for precisely this reason, to keep an unused room from leeching heat from the warm landing or out through the open door of the office say. I note that in a couple of new houses I was in looking over the heating systems supplied, the new owners had disabled many of the door springs, driven mad by the constant slamming, and discombobulated by the sense of isolation caused by a closed plan house. It's one of the fallacies of the new ratings systems, it pushes up your ber rating even if you wedge the doors open on move in. You'll be consuming gas more like a B or C rated house in this situation, especially if the rooms are open vented through the walls, and not through a heat recovery exchanger in the attic.

If you have smart TRVs in about 2-3 rooms in each zone, you'll find that you can focus the heat where and when it's needed, while at the same time keeping a reasonable temperature, but not artic conditions, in empty or little used areas in a zone

bittihuduga

thanks @deezell for the detailed reply.

i was worried that if i dont have smart TRV in all the bedrooms, master BR and kids BR may shut down the boiler heating when their TRV reach desired temperature and it may leave other rooms cold without enough heating.

50 eur per TRV may add up a lot of cost initially but may be saving in a long run

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662855#Comment_118662855

If you think about it, this is exactly the case with a basic single zone system with just one stat, maybe in the hall. It will cut when the hall is at target, so all the rooms off it need to be at desired temperature before this happens. The solution to this was always radiator balancing, using the lockshield valve at the other end of the rad to choke hot flow in quickly heated rooms such that all rooms are heated evenly, especially the ones at the end of the pipe run. Having a decent flow rate on the circulation pump also helps.

bittihuduga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663090#Comment_118663090

true. you correctly reminded me now. in my current manual setup, the thermostat is in the store room and it gets hot very quickly. so i have the manual TRV set to 1. so atleast heating is not cutoff sooner now. thanks for reminding the workaround

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118623492#Comment_118623492

Coming back to this. In the end, I bought a few of these Govee H5102 BLE Thermometer/Hygrometers. Uses AAA batteries, and fully integrated with Home Assistant using the Passive BLE Monitor Integration. Working well so far.

deezell

With only a single AAA battery in the device, I'm curious how long they'll last. If you're using them passively, I'd expect a reasonable life, but if they're being used for home heating control and polled actively by your Home Assistant device and software, say multiple times per minute, I'd expect consumption to increase. Ironically, I see in the BLE integration notes that implementing battery status reporting from enabled devices is detrimental to battery life. C'est la vie.

As an aside, for those who don't want to become software coders in order to see their devices on a phone app, I see a device name 'Hubitat' on the market.I wonder if there are any successful users here, and what is their experience of this more mainstream consumer oriented home automation device, (relative to the more complex coding community* devices).

* polite term for nerds.

xl500

I use Honeywell evohome for the last few years and cannot fault it

It can do all the usual stuff like app control etc

HW control zone

Optimisation on/off

Opentherm compatible

Uses its own internal wifi so no reliance on home wifi also if internet goes down still works in local mode so all schedules etc continue to run and work

But the killer feature for me is electric heater zones can be integrated seamlessly into the system they operate just like any other zone I'm not aware of another system that has this facility

So it you have electric heater in bedroom or undertiles in bathrooms these become zones in the system

My system has worked really well for a few years now and I would get it now again even with all the new ones available since I purchased

It's a heating control system designed very well and works very well

Xl500

deezell

Evohome has its fans, though it appears expensive, but on multiple TRV installations it's competitively priced. The option to control electric panel radiators rather than boiler/zone valves would be an option with most wired/wireless relay systems PROVIDED the relays has sufficient current capacity for the electrical load. Wired stats like Tado or the wired Netatmo can switch about 5a max iirc, about a kilowatt, but I wouldn't recommend using the stats or their relays to power anything more than towel rails or radiant/IR wall heaters of less than about 800w. If you fry the relay contacts in the stat or it's receiver, it's more or less toast. Far easier to get a beefier mains relay, or a wireless smart relay and couple using one of the many options available on the smart apps like HOME,IFTTT etc, to have one smart device instruct another, but if course that brings us back to nerdy territory. Drayton wiser system also has smart plugs, with could switch any mains operated plug in radiator, and they have a wired switch, which can handle 16A, enough for a 3.5 kw heater or an immersion element.

xckjoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118717808#Comment_118717808

Complete back of the envelope type info here but I just checked the history of my Xiaomi bluetooth temperature sensor and it looks like it went from 80% in November to 70% today. It's also a single AAA device. Updates every 5mins from the looks of it. But I don't have it connected to any automations so don't have to worry about forgetting to change batteries or anything.

xl500

Yes but with evo the electric zones are fully Integrated into system as a zone so show as a zone we on control panel etc and will switch on without calling boiler for heat

Im not aware of this being so seamless in any other system

deezell

It would be the same for any system that has a separate room thermostat for a zone. A stat can either call the boiler and open a zone valve, or supply power directly or via a relay to an electric heater. A simple mains operated/mains output relay can be operated by any wired or wireless to receiver stat. Drayton has its own dedicated high current receivers, a mains socket version up to 13a, and a hardwired one to 16a. These also act as repeaters. The stat controlling these relays will appear as a zone on the app.

SouthWesterly

Had a spark in today to do some work.

Got my tado all wired up with a room stat and an immersion switch put in for when I get my hot water diverter.

I've 7 TVRs to install now

deezell

Nice, he even scrawled a little cable diagram key on the wall! TRVS are a doddle to configure, just make sure the mechanical part is right, that they fit the TRV valve bodies correctly, and screw down snugly.

SouthWesterly

Quick question.

Ive the stat in the kitchen and a normal trv on the Rad.

Temp on the stat is set to 18 but it goes above that and heating stays on.

Any ideas what's causing it?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118740484#Comment_118740484

What type of stat. A smart stat or one with a digital display, or a mechanical stat with temp just printed on the dial.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118740533#Comment_118740533

Tado wireless stat