Home heating automation

BobbyT28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119523636#Comment_119523636

Hi Deezell,

really appreciate your reply, always been help to me through the years.

right I’ll go for the first link gen 3 mains voltage one then. Just to confirm, this is the one to go for https://amzn.eu/d/cnxDb1U

here are a few photos attached of boiler and thermostat in the bedroom. Ideal I would like to have the Google nest in the hall but could leave with it in the bedroom. The thermostat in the room only had two brown wires. Or ally we turn this to 0 during the summer so the radiators don’t heat up when we have the heating on for hot water for showers.

I hope these picture make it clearer what I have. I’m not very good with the whole plumbing thing!!

probably hard to say, but what do you reckon is the best way to connect the nest thermostat up?

thanks again

BobbyT28

shoehorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119524179#Comment_119524179

thanks for quick reply.

The two Immermat timers do indeed open two moterised valves. Yes, when I turn on a zone, it makes the boiler fire up, provided we have the boiler electric switch on of course. You see we often turn the boiler off manually (e.g. all summer; nighttime in winter) to prevent those non-zoned rads from staying on when we don't need them. So my concern is that if I replace those Immermat timers with some smart system, we'll have to leave the boiler on all the time, and those pesky 'non-zoned' rads will always be on unless we keep knocking off the power supply to boiler when we go to bed.

It's a grant condenser boiler, yes.

re. cylinder, it's a brand new dual coil cylinder.

Ace2007

Hi Guys,

Hope this is the right thread, I live in a fairly big house with 18 radiators. Given the large number it's just not feasible to be checking what's on, if for example someone turns on and forgets about it. Can I get a hive product or similar where I can control each radiator separately (on an iphone) and how much do you reckon this would cost, is it a once off fee for set up or any monthly subscription with Hive. In addition can I control the hot water with said device (the boiler is less than 4 years old).

Are there companies that will visit a home to see what's practical etc? Perhaps related to this are their companies that will inspect the energy rating of a house and areas to improve it?

Thanks

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119524439#Comment_119524439

OK, looking at the pics I'm surmising that the single motorised valve is used to cut flow to the CH. It would be connected to the stat. Do you have any timers on your system? You say that you cut the CH using the stat when the boiler is on for HW. Is this ON by means of a single notch timer, or is it just a switch. Many older systems are single zone and a half, in that HW heats for any boiler event, but CH can be turned off while HW is heating. Such systems are usually a timer to fire the boiler, and a zone valve to control the CH via the thermostat. The boiler will stop firing either when the timed interval ends, or the system water reaches the boiler temperature. In the latter case the boiler firing will then cycle on and off until it is turned off by the end of a timing event or the timer just manually switched to off.

Replacing this boiler switching signal with the heatlink call for heat and replacing the CH signal to open with the CH timed event from the Nest stat can be achieved with the correct wiring. You will want to set it up so that you can activate the boiler to fire just for HW, or for both HW and CH. This can be done from the two relays on the Nest wireless heatlink receiver, with the stat itself located anywhere you like, wirelessly connected to the heatlink.

I can't tell from the image what is used to fire the boiler for HW only. Is it a timer built in to your current boiler, is there another seperate mechanical or digital timer next to the boiler, or is it just an on off switch. I do see a number of wires entering the base box on your HW cylinder, I'm assuming these may just be for the cylinder immersion, but as this is a non vented cylinder, it must also have some level of thermostatic control to cut the boiler when it heats past a threshold temperature. It would be unlikely that the control of the boiler firing is solely in the hands of a cylinder stat, so there must either be a separate timer or a switch for CH, or else the wall CH valve fires the boiler for CH through its built in relay. You will need a competent person to wire up a two zone source such as the Nest, in a manner which allows you to control your zone and a half system. They will need to determine if the cylinder has a cutoff thermostat to control HW temperature, and the output of this can be controlled by the nest HW timing. See if your system has any other control box or timer you may have missed.

BobbyT28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526038#Comment_119526038

Wow Deezell thanks for such a detailed reply.

We have a built in timer on our current boiler (vokera mynrite 16e) which we have a timer set to turn the heating on and off, the only time we use the thermostat on the room is to turn it to zero at the start of summer and up for the winter (to heat the rads). The boiler downstairs determines when the heating comes on from the timer set.

So this is https://amzn.eu/d/cnxDb1U is the Nest that I need to get for my setup?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119524572#Comment_119524572

You boiler shouldn't be, 'on' , as in firing, all the time. It should be powered in standby, and only fire when a call for heat, also know as SL, a Switched Live voltage, is presented to its SL input terminal. This SL in zoned systems is a combination of the lives from the independent zones, the relays on the two zone valves (opened in turn by their respective timers' live outputs), and the SL from the HW cylinder stat, which may also have a timed source. Your two non zoned rads obviously heat for every HW event. If these can't be easily integrated into one of your CH zones, you could fit them with smart TRVs and make them part of a smart two zone CH system. In this way they will only be open when scheduled in that zone, slaved to that main zone stat. You could add a third motorised valve to make the HW circuit independent of the CH.

Usually when there are radiators outside of the valve zoned CH circuits, it's because they are required as a heat sink for non switchable heat source, such as a stove or back boiler. They are generally gravity fed, so in the event of a power cut, the heated water from the stove can dissipate without the need of a pump. You mention your cylinder is a two coil model, so either you have thermal roof solar panels on the second coil, its unused, or you have a stove/back boiler.

Regardless, your system is ideal for a 2 CH 1HW smart stat system such as Drayton wiser. If you install smart TRVs on multiple rads, you can control both zone valves with a single smart stat such as Tado, Drayton, with individual control of smart TRV equipped rads. Adding smart TRVs to the non zoned rads will allow them to be integrated into one of the CH zones, and thus turned off when that zone is inactive but the boiler is on due to HW demand.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119524774#Comment_119524774

Smart radiator valves (TRVS) are what you need, one for each rad, as many rads as you wish to control. If the rads already have mechanical TRVs, the smart control heads screw onto the exist TRV valve body. Job done, just configuration and pairing with the app and Internet receiver. If your rads don't have existing manual TRVs, just the ordinary screw valves, you will need to replace the screw down manual valve of each rad with a push pin TRV type, which will take the smart heads. Smart TRV heads average €60, nd diy install on existing TRV valve bodies. Supply and installation of TRV valve body, part about €20+ each, installation maybe 1.5 hour plus. If you get 18 done a good plumber would whiz through it in a long day.

You can install smart TRVs just to remotely group and control their time and temperature schedules. They can also work with the main smart stat remote wired receiver, so any TRV can initiate a call for heat from the boiler, through the stat receiver. Only this rad will heat, all the others will remain closed. Rads not equipped with smart TRVs will be open to heating to the max of their mechanical trv head setting. Ideal brands for your system are Tado, Drayton wiser, Hive, Evohome, Netatmo.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526153#Comment_119526153

Yes, it has the wireless heatlink receiver, with two 2-pole relays for HW and CH. You can set schedules for each. Timer for HW, timer and temperature for CH. The HW SL will go via the cylinder stat to the SL input of your new boiler. The SL for the CH will operate the CH motorised valve, and the relay of this valve will also connect to the boiler SL input. Either zone will fire the boiler, though HW will heat during a CH event as the HW circuit is not behind a valve.

BobbyT28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526680#Comment_119526680

super, I just ordered that Nest Thermostat. £189 delivered.

im really sorry but how exactly do you think I should have this setup, layman’s terms 🤪 my neighbour is doing the job for me as he is the plumber and is gas registered also, i know it’s difficult for you to say without seeing it, but if you can tell me exactly what to say to him in terms of which way would be the best to have this setup?

What I want to be able to achieve but not sure I can is,

i know I can schedule the heating to come on and off, can I heat the water in the hw tank with having the heating on heating the radiators, is that possible with my setup?

can I do zone heating if I was to also get smart TVR’s?

thanks so much again,

BobbyT28

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526791#Comment_119526791

All of these. Key difference is the call to the boiler to fire. This was done locally by your built in timer, and I'm certain that the stat only opened and closed the motorised valve, but did not send a SL back to the boiler SL input. So turning up the stat alone would not fire up the CH, you also needed to activate the timer.

Now the new boiler is fired by a either of the SL from the HW relay on the Nest Heatlink receiver, (terminal 6, call-for-heat output), or the relay built into the motorised CH valve. This I'm certain is not currently in use, but will be available between the orange and Grey wires of the valve motor cable. Grey will be connected to a permanent live, and orange connected to the same SL input on the Boiler. The valve is currently activated by a switched live from the old wall stat to the valve motor (usually ) brown wire. This is disconnected from the old stat and connected to the call-for-heat CH terminal 3 on the heatlink. Note the relays' terminals of the heatlink are volt free, so when the heatlink is being wired in, the live in L will have to be extended to the common (COM) terminals (3 and 5) of both HW and CH relays. See heatlink diagram below.

Note that the CH call for heat is not wired directly to the boiler SL, it must be from the motorised valve relay. This arrangement will allow you to program the HW timer in the Nest independent of the CH timer. During CH events the cylinder will heat as there is only one motorised valve if you want completely independent zones you could get your friend to install a second motorised valve for HW, its then wired in a similar fashion to the CH valve, with both orange relay wires joined to fire the boiler (known as S plan zone wiring). Its not unusual in the trades for this part of the install to be done by a sparks, but a well trained plumber/gas installer should have this minimum electrical knowledge to do this.

Note also that it is possible to wire 12v from the heatlink (T1, T2), to supply charging power to the Nest stat, which also doubles as a wired path for the digital signals between stat and heatlink.

A caveat on TRVs. Nest don't currently don't do smart TRVs, so any introduction of other brand TRVs will have be integrated to the Nest using smart control apps and scripts to bridge the two. A system like tado would be a simpler install if you are considering TRVs later.

Ace2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526645#Comment_119526645

Thanks, so potentially looking at 1k+ for the whole house, and maybe 200/300 if I get a plumber to install them. Do you know if the SEAI grants for "Heating Controls" cover that?

Individual Energy Upgrade Grants | Home Energy Grants | SEAI

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119527207#Comment_119527207

Probably do.I think there's 400 for zone controlling, but any estimates you get from a grant approved installer will be double price for materials, 100s/hour for labour, vat on top of all that

I think someone posted what they paid a decent plumber to change 4, or 5 rad valves to TRV type, about €50 each? Can't remember, but the trade price for the actual valves is well under €10.

BobbyT28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526988#Comment_119526988

Sorry Deezell, forgot to thank you for that right up!! I’m getting the heating done the week of 12-18/09 so if I run into any problems I might drop you a DM. Appreciate all the help

BobbyT28

Inconspicuous

All,

I'm hoping I have the right thread and that I might be able to get some advice here to better understand my heating system and what I might possibly be able to achieve and I apologise for the long post. My goal is to implement some smart controls that will improve the overall usability of the system and possibly lead to some better efficiency (though I suspect that those claims are generally over stated). I will state from the outset that my knowledge of heating systems and plumbing is next to none so sorry if I'm making any glaring mistakes below.

My current setup is as follows:

In my utility room on the ground floor I have an Ideal Logic S30 gas system boiler that was installed a few years ago as a replacement boiler. This boiler is connected to a basic two channel digital timer which we can program to schedule the heat to come on an off at certain times. While it is a two channel timer only the Heating channel is connected and controls all boiler functions.

Coming out of the bottom of the boiler are the Flow and Return pipes which bend up over the boiler towards the ceiling and ultimately into the space between the ground and first floor. When the flow pipe reaches the ceiling there is a T junction with two pipes splitting off from it. On the return pipe similar to the flow pipe there is also a T junction at the ceiling splitting the pipe into two separate pipes. On one of these two pipes there is a manual quarter turn shut off valve which we were told is the "summer valve". We use this during the summer to turn off the radiators in the house and just heat the hot water tank on the first floor.

The hot water tank is a modern Joules tank which was installed with the boiler a few years ago. It has a thermostat attached to it which is wired to a motorised valve located on the boiler return pipe coming out of the tank. Neither of these have any connections to the controller in the utility room.

What I would like to achieve:

I would like to install something like the Nest or Tado smart thermostat that would control the heating and hot water in my house separately and is something that I could "set and forget" ie. I don't want to have to be messing with controls and schedules and the "summer valve" on a regular basis.

My understanding of my system and how this could be achieved:

As I said before, I'm clueless about plumbing. I think that my house has two separate circuits (of a sort), one for the radiators and one for the hot water. I know that when I close the "summer valve" only the hot water gets heat from the boiler. What I'm not sure about is the functioning of the thermostat and motorised valve at the hot tank. The valve is a CTC EZ-34IR 2 port valve. Looking at it this morning and the light on the valve was off. I'm assuming that when the valve is not powered (ie the light is off) it is in the open position by default. The thermostat is set to about 55 degrees. I think that when it hits 55, it sends a signal to the valve to close which then stops the return to the boiler and so in winter all of the power from the boiler would instead be diverted to the heating system.

I had a look at the following video about installing a Nest thermostat on an S-Plan system in the UK:

https://youtu.be/jfIo93FtGbQ

Based on my rudimentary understanding of it and my own system, I think it may be possible for me to achieve a similar system by carrying out the following:

1. Replace the manual "summer valve" in the utility room with a motorised one to act as the control to shut on or off the radiators

2. Run signaling wire from the thermostat/motorised valve in the upstairs hot press to the controller at the boiler to use the motorised valve on the boiler return pipe to act as the control to shut on or off the hot water heating.

3. Connect wiring as in the video above.

My questions are:

1. Is my understanding of the mechanics of my system correct?

2. Can I achieve what I want to do in the manner laid out above?

3. Is it a complicated job for a plumber to replace the manual "summer valve" near the boiler with a motorised one and would it be expensive to do?

4. Am I missing something very obvious or is there a better way to do this?

Thanks very much for your time and appreciate your comments.

CantGetNoSleep

I want to get a Tado system installed before winter (as I've found the smart TRVs in each room to be great in my previous house).

I have a combi boiler, not a well known brand. At the moment it appears to have a wireless thermostat (somewhat smart as it connects to my internet router but I've never found any real smart features and the main reason I want one is the smart TRVs so I am changing to a Tado).

When the boiler was changed by the previous owner, they left the old wired thermostat (doesn't look that old) on the wall but it doesn't turn on.

Which Tado should I go for - wired or wireless?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588722#Comment_119588722

You're on the money. Your cylinder valve seems to have no function. If its not lit its closed btw, so shouldn't heat the HW. What opens or closes it is open to speculation. The cylinder stat? Live from the boiler via the stat? The second timer on the controller? None of the above is more likely, it might well be unconnected, but held open with the built in latch lever. It would be wrong to have a controller fire the boiler while both CH circuit is closed with the 'summer valve', and HW is closed with the motorised valve. As you can probably see from your S plan tutorial, systems with motorised valves circuits will not call the boiler until at least one valve has opened. The timed signal from whatever controller or stat you have only opens it's valve, and the valve itself has a relay to supply live to call the boiler, but only when it's mechanically open. Your system looks like a bodged attempt to create a two zone system, or a zone and a half, in that you can have both CH and HW, or just HW.

A zone valve is about €80, plus installation cost. Add this to your CH circuit instead of the 'summer' valve, determine what the other valve is actually doing, and make it the control for HW heating. Wire the valve relays to fire the boiler, and whatever 2 zone timer/thermostat system you want to supply live to open the zone valves. If you want to time the HW events, you can run this live via the cylinder stat to the zone valve ( this you say is already done). HW will heat for the duration of a timed event, or when the cylinder stat reaches target temperature, cutting the live to the valve and halting the boiler.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619411#Comment_119619411

If the wires from the old stat are still available at the boiler you could use a wired Tado. Otherwise, a wireless receiver extension kit can be connected to the boiler and the Tado stat paired to it. The stat now supplied with the Tado wireless starter kit doesn't have any wired terminals, or any internal relay. This greatly improves battery life of the stat, which can if course be placed optimally in your house. The wireless receiver for your current stat may be modular and fitted internally in the boiler. If so, this can be removed simply and the boiler reverted to external SL (switched live) control from the Tado or its wireless extension kit.

CantGetNoSleep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620007#Comment_119620007

Thanks

VinLieger

Looking for advice on a new heating setup. Currently weve just got a Nest and ive never been happy with its schedule setup tbh. A friend just got some of the new Aqara smart radiator thermostats and i realised how much better they would be and are a simple way to setup zones in your house but theres no way to integrate them into nest without using IFTTT or a home assistant setup from what I can see.

What id love to get is a smart thermostat that works with radiator thermostats throughout the house so I can just heat downstairs during the day while im WFH and then just the bedrooms before as we go to bed and keep things warm over night. Basically zone and schedule each room for different times of the day etc.

After some research the only system I can seem to find that might be capable of this without going down a complex home assistant route is Tado and wondering if this would give me what I want or is it all just an efficiency pipedream?

deezell

Tado, Drayton Wiser, Honeywell Evohome, Hive and Netatmo all have an integrated TRV product with their basic thermostat offering. If you have HW timing control as well as CH wired up on your current Nest receiver, then TADO wireless, Drayton kit 2, Hive with HW hub or Evohome can accommodate this, with a simple rewiring of the nest receiver to the new one of choice. If your Nest stat is the E model with the battery receiver, CH only, you will need mains power nearby to power the receivers of your new stat

sonyvision

I have a few posts in this group, but long story short.

Moved into a second hand house which had some smart controls. 2 zones hot water and rads. One issue I faced was with the extension, the previous owner installed 2 rads between the boiler and the control values which meant they were always on.

I installed the drayton system and bought the smart TRVs. I am very impressed the rads switch on when set, don't over heat the rooms and I find the app user friendly. Bought the smart plus for the lamps/TV all hooked up to alexa.

Previously when the heating was on the gas boiler would fire up to 60 degrees. What I notice now is when the rooms are warm, it turns on say every 20 minutes but only fires to 40 or 45 degrees, the rads are warm to touch but not hot hot if you get me.

Happy Drayton customer.

VinLieger

Yeah at the moment im torn between drayton and tado. Had a colleague show me their tado system and app and looks pretty sleek. The tado apps UI is currently whats swaying me tbh considering both systems do basically do the same thing. My one annoyance is they charge a sub for geofencing but im thinking id just sub for the winter months and stop around april each year.

deezell

Is there a one off purchase plan for the software extras? I don't pay as I'm a legacy user, Version 2. They did try to coerce us to either the sub, one off payment, or feature reduced new app by withholding our update to it. That left them having to maintain two versions, old app with free geo or new app with sub or once off fee for geo. They blinked first, when one day I noticed I was on the new app, geo included, and hadn't paid. I felt a bit bad about it, I like the company, but I got over it!

Tado is excellent, no doubt, Drayton very solid and an easy install. You could spend a few hours reading reviews to help. One of the others had some negative feedback over their TRV's, I think Hive. Evohome is a high end product, pricey, but if you're installing multiple TRVs, it is better value comparatively, and can do app HW temperature control if you have a HW cylinder in your system. The others are limited to HW timing, with a manual HW temperature stat on the cylinder.

DataDude

Hi all,

About to take the plunge with Tado for 25 radiators + hot water. Does anyone have a rough idea of time to change each TRV? 10/15 mins or can it be much longer than that?

Have a quote to get it installed but the labour is working out at around €2.5k above what I can source products for. This more than cancels out the grant so half thinking of going solo.

I would not consider myself a DIYer, but reasonably techy (I.E. not worried about the app set up part).

Thanks.

deezell

If your rads already have TRV valves on them, then its a quick swap, only a minute to screw on the Smart trv head. Configuration is battery in, calibrate cycle, then pair to your app. You can add the heads to the app in advance by scanning in their codes. The first one might take a DIY-er longer, but with 25 to do you'd be flying after a few.

Its a much bigger job if new trv valve bodies have to be screwed onto the rads, but once drained, maybe 20 mins per rad once a chap gets into the swing of it, and one minute of his/ your time to screw on the Tado TRV head if you're going to do the congfig part yourself.

I despair of grants, labour cost of grant work is always ridiculous, as are mark ups on materials. I was quoted €11k once for a new €1100 oil boiler and €800 HW cylinder swap.

If there's no plumbing involved, the only electrical work is the connection of the Tado receiver to the HW and CH zone valves, assuming you have two independent zones. That's a pretty trivial job if you already have some kind of timer. You should ask how many weeks work it's going to take, seeing as labour is quoted at €2500, thats about 2.5 weeks pay at a top rate.

Tree

I'm going Drayton over Tado, as the HA integration lets you do local control rather than cloud polling. Waiting on the gas man to change out the boiler to one with opentherm (and generally more efficient one anyway)

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680270#Comment_119680270

OT is only really feasible with a direct from boiler HW system. Looking at your previous posts where you gave your boiler model and config, it looks as if your current plumbing setup is HW from a cylinder, and not direct from the boiler. It may not be possible to connect opentherm to control the new boiler for heating as you will also have to fire it for HW, and control any valve you have that allows HW to heat independently of CH. It's possible your system is currently wired to fire the boiler by its internal timer, and the thermostat just opens a valve to allow CH during this timed period. This means your HW heats anytime the boiler fires, and CH when the stat closes during this time

Ignoring opentherm, to replicate this boiler control requires a system with 'gravity' mode, whereby the the HW terminal is used to fire the boiler for either HW or CH events, and the CH terminal is used only to open the CH valve. The Drayton 2 zone receiver only supplies live output terminals for either timed event, and can't be used to replicate a gravity system. Unless your system has a Y plan three port valve,or an S plan with two 2 port valves, you will not easily be able to have independent supply of HW and CH. The Tado receiver has volt free no/nc contacts for each of HW and CH, and can be wired to emulate gravity mode. Your current boiler has the capacity to fire in a temperature controlled manner if being called by a HW timer via a seperate terminal, but would still require two 2 port or a three port valve to give this independent control. I don't think you have such valves or wiring, but you should check to make sure.

The diagrams below may help your gas man in determining how your current boiler behaves , and if any of the valve schemes on pages 22-33 were installed, or just a single valve off the current thermostat, which I suspect is the case.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T6EeVuRHcZWyB_eCLci_X06Xx2Gw98J8/view?usp=drivesdk

Tree

I'm not sure why my current boiler is relevant when I'm getting a new one installed?

HW is heated by the boiler as a side effect of the heating in winter, and with solar (via Eddi/immersion) in summer/spring/autumn.

There are different versions of the Drayton for combi boilers vs the usual gas heating system.

Iamhere

Looking to get smart heating controls, I had a nest in my last house and it was great. Controls in my current house are a bit all over the place.

The EPH device was for the HW zone but doesn't work anymore.

The switches on the bottom left controls the upstairs and downstairs zones.

Had been looking at the tado but it doesn't seem to do 3 zones.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679878#Comment_119679878

Thanks, all TRVs already so think I’ll give it a go myself and see how I get on. Thanks!