Home heating automation

tweek84

@deezell when you installed your boiler did you install any controls re: to read the return temperature of the water or are you relying on the boiler to do all the controls? I just installed a boiler and i am just interested to see how what other people had used or had they just let the boiler run and cycle when it wants

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

Having said above, I took the advice of Firebird sales who said to use the minimum size boiler which will cycle longer. This is more efficient and less prone to maintenance than a high output model which spends most of it's time off with a full jacket of heated water. Putting in a 45-50 KW model is not necessary in an average size bungalow, especially a well insulated one. A 26-30 will be more efficient and require less maintenance by their reckoning. Smaller boiler saves space and costs less too.

Can you tune a higher power version with different injectors or whatever?
my plumber convinced me to put in a large boiler (Grant Vortex 90-120) 2,500 sq ft 2 story house, when i was thinking the version down would be sufficient as usually different zones are on at different times. I'm stuck with it now, so ill have to live with it. i just got a fill in November, so this will be a good test of how lone it lasts vs the old Firebird which wasn't even a condenser boiler, i'm hoping for great things, lets see

tweek84

ctlsleh wrote: »

Can you tune a higher power version with different injectors or whatever?
my plumber convinced me to put in a large boiler (Grant Vortex 90-120) 2,500 sq ft 2 story house, when i was thinking the version down would be sufficient as usually different zones are on at different times. I'm stuck with it now, so ill have to live with it. i just got a fill in November, so this will be a good test of how lone it lasts vs the old Firebird which wasn't even a condenser boiler, i'm hoping for great things, lets see

Thats only a 26-36kw boiler, i went with the same size in Firebird:D

How many radiators do you have?

viperlogic

Tado having 20% off starter kits

https://www.tado.com/ie/products

ctlsleh

tweek84 wrote: »

ctlsleh wrote: »

Can you tune a higher power version with different injectors or whatever?
my plumber convinced me to put in a large boiler (Grant Vortex 90-120) 2,500 sq ft 2 story house, when i was thinking the version down would be sufficient as usually different zones are on at different times. I'm stuck with it now, so ill have to live with it. i just got a fill in November, so this will be a good test of how lone it lasts vs the old Firebird which wasn't even a condenser boiler, i'm hoping for great things, lets see

Thats only a 26-36kw boiler, i went with the same size in Firebird:D

How many radiators do you have?

In total I have about 13 normal size and 3 small ones in bathrooms

deezell

tweek84 wrote: »

@deezell when you installed your boiler did you install any controls re: to read the return temperature of the water or are you relying on the boiler to do all the controls? I just installed a boiler and i am just interested to see how what other people had used or had they just let the boiler run and cycle when it wants

No extra controls. Boiler is a Firebird Enviromax condensor, under control of a Tado stat. I'm not sure what control is built into the boiler regarding firing control, but I think there are a number of measuring devices on board. There's a decent looking circuit board anyway, so there must be some element of control going on over and above firing the boiler on and off in response to the external/ internal stat. It's possible as you suggest to introduce extra external control such as a return flow stat, maybe mixing valves. This could be used to improve efficiency. It must be mentioned that too cold a return flow at a high rate can cause a phenomenon known as thermal shock, a too great difference between the temperature of the heated boiler at idle and the sudden inrush of cold return when the system has been off for some time. This in fact contradicts the maximisation of efficiency by having the return flow cool enough to condense the exhaust gases. The condensor does raise the temperature of the return flow prior to entering the boiler jacket, so I guess a good way of reducing the chance of thermal shock is to keep the flow pump rate low enough to prevent rapid cooling, and to allow a better temperature gradient over the radiators so water exits cooler. I think the way the tado works best is when there is always some heated water in the radiators, preventing shock, while at the same time cycling the boiler sufficiently to keep a more constant flow at moderate temperature rather than less frequent bursts of very high temperature. The latter is achieved by modulating boilers, which can control the fuel burn rate, but this is an advanced feature of the boiler, and I'm guessing smart stats at best can only fire in a fashion that simulates this effect.

MickH503

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just installed 3 netatmo trv's and find them very easy to use.

How hard is it to install Netatmo TRVs in place of cheapo manual rad valves? Would the valves themselves have to be replaced first?

deezell

MickH503 wrote: »

How hard is it to install Netatmo TRVs in place of cheapo manual rad valves? Would the valves themselves have to be replaced first?

Yes, new trv valve bodies required. Hard to find on their own without a standard TRV head, but here's an inexpensive source of Myson body only trv valves, at only £3.30 each from Stevenson in Bangor Co. Down.
https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/myson-trv2way-valve-body.html
These and all TRV bodies have compression fittings on both ends, so if your manual valve bodies are similar it's just a bit of rad draining, unscrewing and prising to swap. If your manual valves are the much older type with the radiator end connected by a 3/4" union connector, ( the type that makes it easy to lift out a radiator), you will have to unscrew this 'tail' from the radiator and replace it with the compression type tail of the new valves. Getting the old tails out after 20+ years can be problematic. You might not be able to re-use the 15mm compression nuts on the rising pipe either as the threads might differ, so the old nuts and compression rings will need to be removed off the risers without cutting the pipe. Splitting the ring with small grinder and tapping the nut upward will do it.
Getting TRV bodies with the old union connector are like finding hens teeth, and can cost more than €30 each.

MickH503

deezell wrote: »

Yes, new trv valve bodies required. Hard to find on their own without a standard TRV head, but here's an inexpensive source of Myson body only trv valves, at only £3.30 each from Stevenson in Bangor Co. Down.
https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/myson-trv2way-valve-body.html
These and all TRV bodies have compression fittings on both ends, so if your manual valve bodies are similar it's just a bit of rad draining, unscrewing and prising to swap. If your manual valves are the much older type with the radiator end connected by a 3/4" union connector, ( the type that makes it easy to lift out a radiator), you will have to unscrew this 'tail' from the radiator and replace it with the compression type tail of the new valves. Getting the old tails out after 20+ years can be problematic. You might not be able to re-use the 15mm compression nuts on the rising pipe either as the threads might differ, so the old nuts and compression rings will need to be removed off the risers without cutting the pipe. Splitting the ring with small grinder and tapping the nut upward will do it.
Getting TRV bodies with the old union connector are like finding hens teeth, and can cost more than €30 each.

Thanks for that info, I'll have to investigate a bit more! Has anyone seen a deal on the Netatmo TRVs? I should have the "Free" Energia Netatmo thermostat installed next week hopefully!

Irish Gunner

Hi

More of a question for users as just got my first bill while using the Netatmo valves and higher than expected. Ok it is winter and Junior needs to keep warm but still high but when I did not use valves was not so high

I have them set up so that they can control the boiler and one of the rooms we don't use yet (waiting for Junior to get older) I have this set to the lowest it can go so does not turn on. Downstairs is open plan and we have the kitchen and main room open. Thermostat is in this room and main rad has Netatmo valve but small rad only has a TRV. Have schedules set up and on occasion Miss Funkyirishwoman does a boost when feeling cold

We do have 2 rads with a TRV so we turn them down to 1-2 and bathroom has none. Would like to buy more Netatmo valves for the 2 we don't have but don't think Santa will have them in his sack for me this year

Just wondering how other users are getting on with Bills and any tips to reduce them when using the Netatmo thermo and Valves.

Cheers

BoardsMember

Isn't that par for the course really, though? I mean you now have lots of "things" telling the boiler when to fire, whereas before it was only ever on when one thing told it to be on. Unless all your stats timers are never on before when your boiler was due to be on, and are never off after your boiler was due to cut off, I would expect that higher bills might be expected. Not speaking with any experience or knowledge, just seems to stand to reason that now your boiler might be on for more hours in the day, even if the sum of the rads it is heating is less at any point in time.

bk

Irish Gunner wrote: »

Have schedules set up and on occasion Miss Funkyirishwoman does a boost when feeling cold

I suspect that might be your issue their It certainly is for me, the missus is always feeling cold!

She might be hitting the boost, more often then she lets on.

Also it is much colder this month then the past, so obviously that will have an effect.

It is also possible that previously your rooms were being underheated and actually colder then the room where the thermostat was and they are now calling for heat more often.

Irish Gunner

Yeah I understand that the rads are coming on now when room cold and previously did not. It could be Miss Funkyirishwoman doing the boost but dare I say that:p

Looking at purchasing more and the cheapest is on Maplin UK and Amazon both £60 and not sure if worth the purchase for 2 more or wait until the new year?

deezell

bk wrote: »

I suspect that might be your issue their It certainly is for me, the missus is always feeling cold!

She might be hitting the boost, more often then she lets on.

Also it is much colder this month then the past, so obviously that will have an effect.

It is also possible that previously your rooms were being underheated and actually colder then the room where the thermostat was and they are now calling for heat more often.

With Tado the daily heating graph shows not only temperature but when the boiler was on, cycling or off, (orange shades), away mode (green) stat set <18, (blue), and when manual (boost) was invoked (grey). This is incriminating evidence of the highest order, a guaranteed route to the doghouse if invoked.

TomOnBoard

deezell wrote: »

This is incriminating evidence of the highest order, a guaranteed route to the doghouse if invoked.

Which just goes to prove the old truism "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise"!

Irish Gunner

There is an option in the Netatmo valves for Eco mode which does not permit to turn the boiler on they can only lower the temp. Comfort mode does have this option so may try put it on ECO and then if boost need that can be done manually

judeboy101

bk wrote: »

I suspect that might be your issue their It certainly is for me, the missus is always feeling cold!

She might be hitting the boost, more often then she lets on.

Also it is much colder this month then the past, so obviously that will have an effect.

It is also possible that previously your rooms were being underheated and actually colder then the room where the thermostat was and they are now calling for heat more often.

same here i keep eye on my netatmo from work, everytime missus judeboy101 ( aka subzero) turns it on i send her a txt telling her to run it off. ill know in jan if im saving. if i can get the gas bill under 200 yoyo's im on a winner

Gulliver

Hi

I was wondering how one would approach adding smart stats to my Heatmiser system. Back when we were building in 2010, this seemed like such a high-tech system. There was a network module called NetMonitor which I put off purchasing due to price.

Roll around 2017 and the NetMonitor is discontinued and can't be found. The heating control system is also discontinued and I don't want to shell out for the newer "Neo" version as it's really expensive and I wasn't impressed with the previous version.

So I'm looking to smarten things up, preferably to work with Google Home, but on the cheap.

Anyway, here's the setup:

• Underfloor upstairs and down
• No rads
• Each room is a zone
• Condenser Oil burner
• Solar system (only controls solar pump)
• both feed into a 300L 3 coil DHW tank
• No buffer tank - straight from burner to underfloor
• Burner and pump controlled by Heating control system
• Stats currently set for 40 minute burn at 07:00 and from 17:30 to 19:30 in evening. (have to be set in each room)
• DHW currently "tricked" into by setting one stat in a rarely used room to always fire at the times above, even in summer. This triggers the boiler which also feeds the DHW tank as well as pump to the room.

Heating controls:

• 2 x Heatmiser UH1 12V control units (product now discontinued)
• 2 x Manifolds with around 18 actuators (some rooms have 2 runs)
• 13 x Heatmiser Slimline N stats

budhabob

How do I go about finding out if my set up is suitable for automation?

We got an ideal gas boiler installed with an EPH 7 day controller and wireless thermostat. Didn't bother with 2 zones, but can turn a valve to have only water heated.

Edit: if it is suitable, how difficult is self installation?

deezell

budhabob wrote: »

How do I go about finding out if my set up is suitable for automation?

We got an ideal gas boiler installed with an EPH 7 day controller and wireless thermostat. Didn't bother with 2 zones, but can turn a valve to have only water heated.

Edit: if it is suitable, how difficult is self installation?

Easy if you're happy with the manual valve for HW only. Just replace wireless stat with smart stat and its own receiver.
Tado plus extension kit
Nest plus heatlink
Netamo plus relay box

tweek84

budhabob wrote: »

How do I go about finding out if my set up is suitable for automation?

We got an ideal gas boiler installed with an EPH 7 day controller and wireless thermostat. Didn't bother with 2 zones, but can turn a valve to have only water heated.

Edit: if it is suitable, how difficult is self installation?

What do you mean by automation? It looks like it is already automated you could just change out the manual valve for a motorised one. Check if your EPH is compatible with the EPH app and you could have control via your phone.

budhabob

tweek84 wrote: »

What do you mean by automation? It looks like it is already automated you could just change out the manual valve for a motorised one. Check if your EPH is compatible with the EPH app and you could have control via your phone.

Fair call.....perhaps automation is not correct. Basically all im looking for is smart access. I want to be able to set the heating schedule for more than the 3 times im limited to at present, and turn on / off from my mobile as required. its a relatively small house so happy with the one zone at present.

deezell

budhabob wrote: »

Fair call.....perhaps automation is not correct. Basically all im looking for is smart access. I want to be able to set the heating schedule for more than the 3 times im limited to at present, and turn on / off from my mobile as required. its a relatively small house so happy with the one zone at present.

Then just get one of the three brands I listed there, replace the old stat receiver with the new one. Is the receiver for your current stat built in to the eph controller or is wired to it externally. If so you will replace the eph controller with the smart stats heatlink/ relay/ extension kit. FWIW the wireless stat versions of eph controllers are not in themselves capable of connection via the internet/ mobile app. The new eph ember brand of controller is required, it would be a direct plugin replacement for your current eph control unit, if your current stat was an EPH wireless type direct to the controller and compatible with it.

budhabob

deezell wrote: »

Then just get one of the three brands I listed there, replace the old stat receiver with the new one. Is the receiver for your current stat built in to the eph controller or is wired to it externally. If so you will replace the eph controller with the smart stats heatlink/ relay/ extension kit. FWIW the wireless stat versions of eph controllers are not in themselves capable of connection via the internet/ mobile app. The new eph ember brand of controller is required, it would be a direct plugin replacement for your current eph control unit, if your current stat was an EPH wireless type direct to the controller and compatible with it.

The stat receiver is wireless (I think) and downstairs, with the control panel in a press next to the hot press. I wont lie, I did read back on this thread but was rightly confused.

deezell

budhabob wrote: »

The stat receiver is wireless (I think) and downstairs, with the control panel in a press next to the hot press. I wont lie, I did read back on this thread but was rightly confused.

Receiver would be connected to the controller by two wires, plus a mains power cable. Post a photo of it, controller and stat if you can, or just the make/ model of stat and receiver.

TomOnBoard

judeboy101 wrote: »

same here i keep eye on my netatmo from work, everytime missus judeboy101 ( aka subzero) turns it on i send her a txt telling her to run it off. ill know in jan if im saving. if i can get the gas bill under 200 yoyo's im on a winner

How are you enjoying sleeping in the spare room these days?? :D:D

tweek84

budhabob wrote: »

Fair call.....perhaps automation is not correct. Basically all im looking for is smart access. I want to be able to set the heating schedule for more than the 3 times im limited to at present, and turn on / off from my mobile as required. its a relatively small house so happy with the one zone at present.

I get you now, I would go for the eph ember about 50-70 euro from memory off heatmerchants. I would have gone with that myself only I wanted it to interact with echo or google home but the app looks to be good i don't know about how many schedules it can store. You could put in a motorised valve instead of or up stream of the hand valve and control that from the ember also. It would be handy instead of having to get up off the couch to do it

Another plus was I emailed eph about the ember and it was in the morning and I had a reply by cob from them that says a lot to me.

deezell

Gulliver wrote: »

Hi

I was wondering how one would approach adding smart stats to my Heatmiser system. Back when we were building in 2010, this seemed like such a high-tech system.....

......So I'm looking to smarten things up, preferably to work with Google Home, but on the cheap.

• 2 x Heatmiser UH1 12V control units (product now discontinued)
• 2 x Manifolds with around 18 actuators (some rooms have 2 runs)
• 13 x Heatmiser Slimline N stats

I've had a quick read through the data sheets for the stats and the wiring centres. That was a serious and probably expensive set up. 13 networked stats didn't come cheap. The uh1 control centres on first inspection can take third party stats, as they have a volt free contact as well as their serial data connection. You could check if the serial connection was wired in you installation, (only needed if the touchscreen controller or the Netmonitor were installed) otherwise just the volt free contacts and 12v power are connected. Replacement smart stats won't require the 12v.
I'd expect it's possible to replace any one of these stats with a smart stat, to give smart control to just that zone. As your zones are all underfloor, there is a possibility that remote floor or air sensors were used in the installation, as these are advised in underfloor installations, and your current stats have terminals for the same. If your current stats use their internal temperature sensor only then replacing them with smart stats will not affect the response and performance of the heating in that room, but will give you full smart app control. Tado claims that it's stat's learning and optimisation will allow it to control slow response underfloor systems.
It would be an expensive undertaking to replace all 13 stats with smart, but perhaps a couple of the main zones would suffice to begin with.

deezell

budhabob wrote: »

Fair call.....perhaps automation is not correct. Basically all im looking for is smart access. I want to be able to set the heating schedule for more than the 3 times im limited to at present, and turn on / off from my mobile as required. its a relatively small house so happy with the one zone at present.

The ember App enabled controller R17-RF only has three timing periods per day also. It requires the eph RFR wireless thermostat and the GW01 gateway to complete internet and app connection. About €200 for the kit. If you already have the R17-R and it's wireless stat you will only need the gateway, about €125. All you will be getting is remote control of the non smart system you already have.
Typical price, https://www.eurosales.ie/products/eph-ember-pack-1-c-w-r17-rf-1-rfr-1-gw01-emberpack01.html

Gulliver

deezell wrote: »

I've had a quick read through the data sheets for the stats and the wiring centres. That was a serious and probably expensive set up. 13 networked stats didn't come cheap. The uh1 control centres on first inspection can take third party stats, as they have a volt free contact as well as their serial data connection. You could check if the serial connection was wired in you installation, (only needed if the touchscreen controller or the Netmonitor were installed) otherwise just the volt free contacts and 12v power are connected. Replacement smart stats won't require the 12v.
I'd expect it's possible to replace any one of these stats with a smart stat, to give smart control to just that zone. As your zones are all underfloor, there is a possibility that remote floor or air sensors were used in the installation, as these are advised in underfloor installations, and your current stats have terminals for the same. If your current stats use their internal temperature sensor only then replacing them with smart stats will not affect the response and performance of the heating in that room, but will give you full smart app control. Tado claims that it's stat's learning and optimisation will allow it to control slow response underfloor systems.
It would be an expensive undertaking to replace all 13 stats with smart, but perhaps a couple of the main zones would suffice to begin with.

Thanks very much for taking the time to look at that. It was my first (and only!) time building a house and I think I got oversold on the complexity of the system. It was still cheaper than some bigger heating suppliers at the time, though.

It's encouraging to hear that I might be able to just replace the stats, even if they are expensive now. They might come down over time. There is CAT5e from each wiring centre to all stats so hopefully that should cover all wiring bases. All stats use their own internal sensors but I did intend to get the wired probe for the ones mounted outside the bathrooms. We just guess those at the moment.